70Turbobug´s 2 liter turbo

[70Turbobug]

Hi everybody,

I´d like to share my turbo project here aswell.Of course it´s a german looker!

Here are the engine specs:
94x71 - stock crank and stock cylinders - for now.
webcam 86a - out of the box with the 108° LC
straight cut cam gears
Jake Raby parkerized lifters
Cromoly pushrods
CR 8:1
stock CU Bus pistons
oil squirters for the pistons
stock rods balanced with Raceware bolts
cryoed and coated KS main bearings and cam bearings.
Six 13H7 Remmele through bolts
Raceware headstuds
1.7 heads ported 41x35 valves exh.valves are sodium filled,Remmele Dual springs
Autocraft 2 stage dry sump pump
200mm 3.9kg flywheel - clutch TBD either Remmele (Sachs) dual disc or KEP dual disc.
Remmele CF fanhousing 10 blade 911 fan
four 45mm Throttlebodies from a BMW 1150GS Motorcycle - all cable operated,no linkage
4 550cc(@3 bar) siemens/Bosch Injectors
Bosch LSU 4.2 wideband lambda
Bosch narrowband lambda
MFT EGT sensor
Bosch IAT sensor
Bosch COP igntion modules
Ebel-Tec ECU w/boost control
Walbro inline pump
GT3071R .63 A/R turbine .50 A/R compressor
Tial 38mm WG
Greddy Blow off
liquid-Air intercooler

The car:
´84 mex body on a ´70 automatic pan
944 turbo aluminum trailing arms
Remmele uni-ball coil over rear suspension
4 piston boxster calipers + discs rear,911 carrera 4 piston calipers and discs in front
Remmele uni-ball coil over suspension in front
Heigo aluminum rollcage
091 gearbox
944 turbo axles and cv joints
17" cup 1 wheels 205/40/17 + 245/40/17

here are some pics,more to follow

[70Turbobug]

Here are a few more:
I´ll take some mor pictures as I go along.These pics are a little old.

[evilC]

Hi 70Turbobug and welcome.

That spec has the makings of a very quick motor.

I note you are going with a Uniball rear suspension and coilover. Why are you getting rid of the torsion bars, are you intending to race the machine? If you do get rid of the torsion bars then you will certainly need a Kafer Cup Brace - 5 bar type to brace up the rear and accept all the suspension loads you are going to put through the top mount.
I see you are going to use an alloy rollcage that will preclude the car being used in most forms of motorsport. It would be better to fit a chrome moly one welded in situ.
Its a shame you are not using the McPherson strut front end to make best use of what is a very high spec.

Clive

[Wally]

CR 8:1
stock CU Bus pistons


Hi Mark,

I knew most of it already, but can't still figure out why you are going to use stock cast pistons in an engine with otherwise such hi-spec and hi-cost components?
You can just easily use a $200,- set of Mahle type 1 pistons, which are sort-of forged and very light weight too. They are twice as good and cost near nothing wrt this project.
and don't give me crap about the 'compression ratio' with the flat tops :D :lmao:

Greets,
Wally

[Sandeep]

Mark,

What is the 3rd pic in your first set of pictures of ? I see 5 ports in the box, is this to equalize the MAP signal from the TB's ?

I noticed the Remmele front uniball suspension setup ... do you have a pic of that ?

Thanks

Sandeep

[gonebuggy]

Mark,

What is the 3rd pic in your first set of pictures of ? I see 5 ports in the box, is this to equalize the MAP signal from the TB's ?

I noticed the Remmele front uniball suspension setup ... do you have a pic of that ?

Thanks

Sandeep

On the TB's it looks like each throttle is independent (butterflies don't share a common shaft) My guess is it's one hell of a throttle cable splitter! Nice linear bearings on it as well.

Alex

[70Turbobug]

Thanks guys!

On the TB's it looks like each throttle is independent (butterflies don't share a common shaft) My guess is it's one hell of a throttle cable splitter! Nice linear bearings on it as well.


Exactly! The 3rd pic is the junction box" where the 4 cables from the TB´s come together.The slide in the middle has ballbearings and slides on a shaft.I still need to get a CB Plate and housing.A friend of mine offered to make me housings from carbon fiber,but I´m not sure if I can get them to seal properly i.e. not be able to put much clamp pressure at the junctions.

Hi 70Turbobug and welcome.

That spec has the makings of a very quick motor.

I note you are going with a Uniball rear suspension and coilover. Why are you getting rid of the torsion bars, are you intending to race the machine?

Thanks! Occasionally I will race it. You are right about the brace.I will have one made out of steel.I had a CSP aluminum brace and I believe they are too soft.Not because it´s aluminum,but because it is cheap aluminum.The torsion bars will not be used at all and are not installed.This allows the suspension to move more freely and independantly.

You can just easily use a $200,- set of Mahle type 1 pistons, which are sort-of forged and very light weight too. They are twice as good and cost near nothing wrt this project.
and don't give me crap about the 'compression ratio' with the flat tops

Hi Wally! Well it´s hard to argue against that I guess and you are more than likely right. I had my eye on a set of Wiseco´s from JayCee advertised on VW parts unlimited for 350 Dollars.Using the stock pistons may cause a bit of misunderstanding but let me explain why I chose this way.The main enemy is temperature and rpm.A cast piston doesn´t trap the the heat as much as a forged piston.A forged piston is better for high rpm due to the denser material.I will be using piston oil squirters and will be running on E85 only and I have an efficient turbo and Intercooler.I´m optimistic that it will work out fine.Armin Klein also runs stock pistons in his 2 Liter turbos with great success on pump gas and blasting around the A1 ring at 1.8 bar all day (had a hole in his WG senseline) and the temps didn´t move away from normal values.It´s a risk I agree,but I´m not going to be revving that high eventhough the specs suggest it.

I noticed the Remmele front uniball suspension setup ... do you have a pic of that ?
Hi Sandeep! I don´t have the suspension put together yet.My Beam is getting powder coated.I will take some pics of the parts this week.

[70Turbobug]

Here is a pic of the coil on plug ignition modules I will be using.They put out 100 mJ.Here is some more info on them:
http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/content/language1/html/2847.htm

[Wally]

The main enemy is temperature and rpm.A cast piston doesn´t trap the the heat as much as a forged piston..

I disagree humbly on both accounts though..
You main enemy in a turbo engine is knock. Period.
You really don't have the heads/headflow to worry about rpm.. (sorry)

The heat retention/conductivity differences of cast and forged alu is really futile in engine operation circumstances.

Knock is your enemy and you WILL encouter it sometime during tuning.
Then you have either forged ring lands or cast ring lands...
Thats my main point ;)

[evilC]

Thanks guys!
...................
Thanks! Occasionally I will race it. You are right about the brace.I will have one made out of steel.I had a CSP aluminum brace and I believe they are too soft.Not because it´s aluminum,but because it is cheap aluminum.The torsion bars will not be used at all and are not installed.This allows the suspension to move more freely and independantly.


...............

I don't agree about the suspension moving more freely. The only advantage to using the uniball set up is the adjustability for a race set up where various springs can be substituted. The torsion bars do allow the loads to be rgidly and efficiently transferred into the heart of the chassis whereas the Cup brace, although fully triangulated, still allows some flex. If this is primarily a road car then the torsion bar set up supplemented with helper springs on coil overs will give you the adjustability you need for the occasional foray onto the track. With this system the light weight alloy cup brace will be more than sufficient to control any residual loads and stiffen the frame horns.

Porsche ran their '70s 934s and 935s with uniball/coilovers not because the torsion bars were deficient but because it saved weight and it gave them a greater selection of spring rates. Neither of those reasons would apply to your bug.

Clive

[Humble]

Sounds like you'll have a hell of a motor when it comes together got any plans for the poor 091?

On the piston issue it doesn't make sense cost wise to use a cast piston. Even if you have already built the motor and gone through break in I would still strip it and get forged pistons. Those cheap cast pistons will cost you a fortune when they go, not if, when. It could be just a ring land (new piston and barrel maybe some head work), or maybe the piston crown goes (time for a new head, rod, maybe crank, cam, lifters, possible fire damage). The point is $200 now could save you thousands down the road.

I would also stay away from the wiesco pistons for a turbo motor. Even though they are forged the upper ring land is very thin and doesn't hold up the detonation under boost.

[70Turbobug]

All the points you guys have made are correct and I´m not arguing against them per say.There are some people that don´t like the Remmele set up - which is fine.To me,it´s a great set up and it does have a few flaws.If I were to improve the suspension I would build a double wishbone suspension instead.That of course is quite a task and to get it street legal here in germany would cost dearly.The bug will primarily be driven on the street,once in a great while on the track.The Remmele set up has it´s weeknesses of course as does any suspension set up.Whether the loads are transfered into the chassis better than the tosion bars,I can´t really say.But it makes a world of difference compared the usual Koni and adjustable beam set up.The car acts completely different and to me, seems more stable especially in fast and bumpy corners.Another reason is the adjustability as mentioned.

Back to the cast pistons: Yes,you all are right! One big reason for knock is high piston crown temperature and chamber temperature,correct? A cast piston will have less temperature overall.Interestingly Corky Bell explains in his "Maximum Boost" Book the advantages of a cast piston vs. a forged piston.Of course there comes a point where the forged piston is needed due to it´s higher density.I may have to switch to forged pistons for that matter.I would like to keep the 24mm wrist pin because the rods are finished.

[evilC]

[QUOTE=70Turbobug;71995]All the points you guys have made are correct and I´m not arguing against them per say.There are some people that don´t like the Remmele set up - which is fine.To me,it´s a great set up and it does have a few flaws.If I were to improve the suspension I would build a double wishbone suspension instead.That of course is quite a task and to get it street legal here in germany would cost dearly.The bug will primarily be driven on the street,once in a great while on the track.The Remmele set up has it´s weeknesses of course as does any suspension set up.Whether the loads are transfered into the chassis better than the tosion bars,I can´t really say.But it makes a world of difference compared the usual Koni and adjustable beam set up.The car acts completely different and to me, seems more stable especially in fast and bumpy corners.Another reason is the adjustability as mentioned.

.....................QUOTE]

We do have advantages in Britain regarding building specials but I was not suggesting a double wishbone unit. In fact, I was suggesting that for the rear you could make life simpler by retaining the torsion bars and adding the coilover to increase the overall wheel rate. I suspect that the reason the Remmelle coilover you have tried works well is that the wheel rate has been increase measurably over stock. I note that Remmelle's rear coilovers are 90kg/cm or 120kg/cm, which is some 50+% over stock. You could achieve that sort of increase by retaining the torsion bars and adding lighter weight coil overs. Whilst Konis have a good reputation I would recommend Bilstein for a performance application and adding a 50lb/inch (9kg/cm) helper + 150ish lb/inch (27kg/cm) main spring. The damper needs to reflect the frequency of the whole spring rate so a notional equivalent would have to be calculated.

Clive

[70Turbobug]

Ahh now I understand what you are saying.The coil overs I have from Remmele for the rear are IIRC the 2nd generation ones that are made from Bilstein for Remmele.The front unit is the 1st generation model made from Koni for Remmele.The current model suspension is self produced.The good thing with the rear suspension I have is that I am not limited to the springs that are delivered with it.I can choose from various manufactuerers such as KW or other Bilstein springs.I admit you are the first person I have heard to say there is a better option/improvement to the Remmele coil overs using them with torsion bars.They were designed to eliminate the torsion bars.I have heard many pros and cons for the front uni-ball set up.Not everyone likes it.I will see how the car reacts without the torsion bars first.Thanks for the tip!

[NO_H2O]

Sounds like you have a great project going. I have been thinking of building a turbo engine much like yours down the road (need to finish y 2.4L N/A first) I was thinking of the Web 119 cam. What made you pick the 86A?

[evilC]

Ahh now I understand what you are saying.The coil overs I have from Remmele for the rear are IIRC the 2nd generation ones that are made from Bilstein for Remmele.The front unit is the 1st generation model made from Koni for Remmele.The current model suspension is self produced.The good thing with the rear suspension I have is that I am not limited to the springs that are delivered with it.I can choose from various manufactuerers such as KW or other Bilstein springs.I admit you are the first person I have heard to say there is a better option/improvement to the Remmele coil overs using them with torsion bars.They were designed to eliminate the torsion bars.I have heard many pros and cons for the front uni-ball set up.Not everyone likes it.I will see how the car reacts without the torsion bars first.Thanks for the tip!

A further consideration that should be noted on the uniball set up on the rear is that you will transmit road noise staight into the chassis that might be a little wearing on the senses in a car primarily for the road. From the tyres there will be nothing to moderate the NVH (noise, vibration and harshness) that will be generated by the tyre since all the contacts are now solid metal. At least with torsion bars you will have rubber or more likely polyurethane bushings of various selectable hardnesses to damp out those vibes.

Rest assured, I am not judging what you are doing I'm just trying to expose the bigger picture. Ultimately, the choice must be yours and you ought to have chosen your solution based upon your criteria but with as much information as you can obtain.

Good luck with the build and keep us posted.

Clive

[70Turbobug]

Sounds like you have a great project going. I have been thinking of building a turbo engine much like yours down the road (need to finish y 2.4L N/A first) I was thinking of the Web 119 cam. What made you pick the 86A?

I wanted a cam slightly more agressive than the 119 without losing idle quality.I´m hoping it will be a bit more snappy and faster on spool up.My original choice was the 163 but the 86a runs much smoother and I believe it is a better cam for a 2 liter.If I was to build a 2.4 turbo I would go with a 163 on a 110LC.

Thanks Clive for the info! I don´t mind a car that is a bit harsh.It´s a car made for for fun so some comprimises have to be made.My main focus is stability,safety and driveability.I´ll sacrifice some comfort in exchange.I got to drive a Lotus Elise this summer and the car´s handling really impressed me.So easy and precise and stable.It´s probably not possible, but f I can get near that kind of handling I´ll be happy.

[70Turbobug]

A little update on the 2 liter turbo project.I´m back from vacation and picked up my parts from Remmele.

The heads are also finsished but I have sold them.Instead Remmele is going to do me up a set of CU heads.I´ve decided to go with the CU heads for a couple of reasons.First - more flow,more meat in the chamber and ports along with larger ports.I will be using 45x39 valves and dual springs 130Kg.The exhaust valves will be Mercedes 7mm stem sodium filled.The intake valve is a Remmele valve.Another reason is there´s more surface to seal for the header in the square port than the oval port.
I will more than likely use the BAS stainless header like Wally.Yes - I am a copy cat in this case.What convinced me is that Wally is now using a GT3076 Turbo and it fits in the same location as the old turbo which was considerably smaller.But Wally´persistance and 350HP don´t have anything to do with it :D:lmao:

The crank and rods are also here - but no need to show that since they are completely stock - just well balanced.
3.5 kg Flywheel - including surface rust...I need to clean it up :o

[Wally]

Good looking parts Mark!

I will more than likely use the BAS stainless header like Wally....

Thats quite a change in thought Mark! I can remember you critising my BAS header choice wrt strength and diameter...:rolleyes: ;)
And I copied it from Sandeep you know.
Well, better well copied than ill made :)

[Sandeep]

And I copied it from Sandeep you know.


My bug may be sporting a ducktail with air-air intercooler spring 2010 :screwy: . I'm pretty sure that 350 HP / GT3076R had nothing to do with it ...:nervous:

Sandeep

[Wally]

Right on Sandeep!

I'll trade ya :D
I'am all fired up to up the stakes some more :cool:

[70Turbobug]

Thanks Wally! I will be sending the heads off next week sometime,they will basically be the version 5 heads that Remmele offers only with sodium filled exhaust valves.If your header hasn´t cracked or any other issues by now,it won´t in the future either.So 1:0 for you ;)

Armin has also upgraded to a 2.2 liter! Although with a 78mm Demello crank and a Garrett 2871 journal bearing turbo.He made 2 new videos also: this one is with the K26/K27 turbo:http://www.myvideo.de/watch/6952429/Salzburgring_Classic_2009 and this one is with the 2871 turbo: http://www.myvideo.de/watch/6952465/Fahrtraining_am_Salzburgring_2009.

[Wally]

Thanks Wally! I will be sending the heads off next week sometime,they will basically be the version 5 heads that Remmele offers only with sodium filled exhaust valves.If your header hasn´t cracked or any other issues by now,it won´t in the future either.So 1:0 for you ;)
Only 1:0 ? :lmao:
But serieusly, you can also consider the CSP sidewinder header which has stub-pipes, is also stainless and seemed very well made also. I like stub-pipes for a turbo engine.
Furthermore, the equal length IS an advantage with a turbo engine as well. Trust me ;) (4:0 :lmao:)

Armin has also upgraded to a 2.2 liter! Although with a 78mm Demello crank and a Garrett 2871 journal bearing turbo.He made 2 new videos also: this one is with the K26/K27 turbo:http://www.myvideo.de/watch/6952429/Salzburgring_Classic_2009 and this one is with the 2871 turbo: http://www.myvideo.de/watch/6952465/Fahrtraining_am_Salzburgring_2009.
Cool vid's! Its alomost embarressing to see how he closes in and overtakes all those Porsches... but he should wear a helmet at the track I think (second vid) ;)
He is probably a better track driver than I am, but I think I do better at the strip :D

[bow]

i like that flywheel home made?

[70Turbobug]

The CSP header is well made,but also considerably more expensive 560 Euros vs. 880 Euros.The A-1 header is also an option.But the price/performance of the BAS speaks seems better to me.The stub pipes from Armin I will be using are better/stronger than the CSP stubpipes included with their header.Did you make any mods to the header?

Cool vid's! Its alomost embarressing to see how he closes in and overtakes all those Porsches... but he should wear a helmet at the track I think (second vid)
He is probably a better track driver than I am, but I think I do better at the strip

Embarrassing for those Porsche drivers for sure and he still only uses 1.3 bar boost.Check out his other vids also where he chases a Ferrari and GT40 around the track.I would have loved to have seen the look on their faces! I wouldn´t say he´s better at the track - he just might be a little crazier than you,though :D He still drives to and from the track with it and drives it nearly everyday...when he´s not driving his 2 liter type 4 turbo 912.

[70Turbobug]

i like that flywheel home made?

Thanks,no it´s just an ordinary 215mm flywheel that has been machined.Many remove material further inward or machine holes between the clutch surface area and the flange.That doesn´t help so much imho since the weight on the outside of the clutch surface area has more gyroscopic effect and inertia than further inboard.That´s why I had outer area machined.That´s nothing new though - there are a few tuners here in Germany who have been doing this for many years.

[Wally]

Many remove material further inward or machine holes between the clutch surface area and the flange.That doesn´t help so much imho since the weight on the outside of the clutch surface area has more gyroscopic effect and inertia than further inboard.That´s why I had outer area machined.

Good thinking! making the rotating mass lesser on a turbo engine might help with spool-up as it revs up quicker.
Light-weight pistons and rods help as well in that train of thought.

Brave of Armin to run on the track with 1,3 bar!

[bow]

hmm food for thought thanks! maybe i can find someone around here who can do it! wishful thinking im sure

[70Turbobug]

Good thinking! making the rotating mass lesser on a turbo engine might help with spool-up as it revs up quicker.
Light-weight pistons and rods help as well in that train of thought.


Light rods and pistons would surely make it rev even quicker for sure.That might be an option later on.For now I will use the stock rods with Raceware bolts.

Brave of Armin to run on the track with 1,3 bar!
He had ran up to 1.8 bar in a long distance race once without knowing it.The boost gauge still showed around 1.3 bar.Later he found a small hole in the wastegate senseline.All other gauges showed normal operating temps - i.e. CHT,oil temp and afr...and still drove home after the race from the A-1 ring back to Ulm 400km IIRC...
with stock cast bus pistons!

[Wally]

- he just might be a little crazier than you,though :D

Errr, make that a LOT crazier :D

[70Turbobug]

I´m sure it won´t take long before become that nutty aslo :D

[Wally]

I wanted a cam slightly more agressive than the 119 without losing idle quality.I´m hoping it will be a bit more snappy and faster on spool up.My original choice was the 163 but the 86a runs much smoother and I believe it is a better cam for a 2 liter. .

Just checked webcamshafts website and I think the valve lift of the 86a is too small (11.05mm). Turbo's love valve lift is my current experience.
There's probably a reason Webcam advertises their 119 as a turbo cam...
I would advise to change the cam to one with about half an inch lift (12,7mm)
1.7mm lift difference is A LOT!

Just my 0.02 cents worth of friendly advise :rolleyes:

[70Turbobug]

You´re right about turbos loving high lift,I might trade it in for my original choice the webcam 163.I haven´t really decided yet.I like the 86a because it´s a "quiet" cam and easy on the valve train and still pull to 7K.As you know choosing the right cam is always a challenge.What doesn´t make it any easier is following your experiences and seeing and driving with Armin´s 2 liter turbo with a low (11 mm) cam and the performance that his engine has.It´s actually not that spectacular riding in Armin´s turbo and you think at first it´s kind of a pooch,then you glance over at the speedo and you´re doing 260K/mh.His car doesn´t have the snap or agressivenesse that we see with the type 1s i.e. 2276 or so.But it´s just incredibly fast.It´s a ticket magnet...

[Wally]

Well, your the builder, you must choose eventually ;)

[70Turbobug]

A very small update: The CU heads are back from glasbead blasting.To my surprise,they are in much better shape than I thought! Today they are getting shipped off for porting,seats,valves etc.

[70Turbobug]

Another small update.The case work is finished.The mains had to spindled out to 0.50mm.Now I will clean the case up a little better and then install the Raceware headstuds.

[Wally]

Good progress!
What are those weird looking copper-coloured thingys sticking out from under the bores?

[70Turbobug]

Good progress!
What are those weird looking copper-coloured thingys sticking out from under the bores?


Oil squirters to cool the pistons.Simple but effective;)

[Wally]

Thought so, but how are those fixated? Mine sit much higer up and into the bearing saddle.

[70Turbobug]

The saddle is tapped and the squirters are screwed in.The squirters are the tips from a wire welder.I´ve seen others use grease nipples/fittings aswell.

[Xellex]

guys, what size do you think is best for the hole in the squirters? And do you have a closer look picture of them?

[70Turbobug]

There are different options.My case uses the tips from a wire welder with an M5 thread.Location and angle are the key to make it work properly,though.

[Wally]

Xellex,
I use the squirters from a 911 turbo. Those also have a check valve inside so your oil pressure doesn't drop at (hot) idle. They open at 2 bar or there about ;)

Mark,
Did Remmele install these for you?

Tnx,
Walter

[70Turbobug]

Mark,
Did Remmele install these for you?


No, Remmele uses the Porsche squirters also IIRC;) Most of his engines do not have oil squirters.Armin did the casework - it´s one of his cases I bought from him.I gave him my case as a "trade in".So he deserves the merit on this :D

[70Turbobug]

Another small update - my billet single stage dry sump pump from Thorsten Pieper came in.It has a 3 piece housing with 32mm gears.

[Xellex]

nice! Can these be ordered online? I only found vague information about thorsten pieper on the web.

[Wally]

Hey Mark,

Thats cool!

Did he change gear size? I am sure you didn't get two 32mm gears...:rolleyes:

[70Turbobug]

nice! Can these be ordered online? I only found vague information about thorsten pieper on the web.

He doesn´t have a shop or anything.If someone is interested I can contact him.

Did he change gear size? I am sure you didn't get two 32mm gears...

I don´t know if he changed gear sizes or not.But I just measured again,they are all 32mm diameter.Actually there are 2 gear sets,total of 6 gears.I´ll take some more pics later,makes it easier to explain.;)

[Wally]

I don´t know if he changed gear sizes or not.But I just measured again,they are all 32mm diameter.Actually there are 2 gear sets,total of 6 gears.I´ll take some more pics later,makes it easier to explain.;)

Ok, I am curieus as mine are 26mm pressure side and 38mm suction side, which seems about perfect to me for a street/strip engine.
Same size pressure as suction is odd. IIRC, the suction gears could be a set working in line?
We are talking gear length, not diameter right?

[70Turbobug]

Nope,gear diameter.Here are some more pics.Maybe there´s a difference in the housing? The long gears are 2 piece,then the 2 short gears behind the cover makes a total of 6,but all have the same diameter which is 32mm.Sorry,I´m not a good photographer...

[Wally]

Nope,gear diameter.

I was afraid you meant that...

Gear diameter is viryually the same for ALL pumps because the housing diameter in the case has a given size. So, pump capacity for our purpose is always measured in gear length...

Dude, you must really get out more! ;)

[Sandeep]

He doesn´t have a shop or anything.If someone is interested I can contact him.


Hi Mark,

You have a PM about the TP pump.

thanks

Sandeep

[70Turbobug]

Dude, you must really get out more!
Yeah,you´re right I do need to get out more.I just didn´t think about it...:rolleyes: I got mixed up,sorry :o
The 2 piece long gear has a total length of 38mm (26mm+12mm) and the shorter gear behind the cover has 26mm.

[70Turbobug]

Here´s another small update - it´s been a while..the 47x39 valves aren´t here yet,that´s why they are missing the pics.Other than that the heads are finished.I still have a couple of minor things to do on the case,after that the engine can be assembled,finally!

[70Turbobug]

Hi everyone,finally the custom order valves arrived! 47mm intake and 39mm sodium filled exhaust valves both with 8mm shaft.Unfortunately,I found that my case deck has to be milled,because it wasn´t 100% straight.So that will be put me back a bit and I won´t be able to assemble until the case comes back.I´m hoping it will be back in about a week or two.

[Wally]

Hey Mark,

How and where did you measure the case exactly to verify this?

Nice looking valves, not sure about the sodium filling being the ones to use though. How much do they weigh?

Tnx,
Walter

[70Turbobug]

Hi Wally,
Thanks! I just used a straight edge and a dial indicator just like you would measure deckheight,only that you measure the case deck/spigots without the cylinders of course.I measured at 4 points on each bore,you must make sure that the straight edge is level to have a reference. I used aluminum tape which is 0.10mm thick to level the straight edge out.Once the edge is level ten you can measure the spigot/bore and detect a difference.The straight edge has holes for the headstuds.There was also a very small groove approx. 0.15mm where the cylinders "dug in" into the case,which I didn´t like to beginn with,but didn´t really bother anything,but this was the reason I decided to see if the spigots were level.That´s the way it goes,if you dig far enough you will usually find something..so I will have the case milled to the deepest measurement that was recorded,which was 0.15mm.The measurements varied from 0.10mm to 0.15xx mm.I´m not sure if that is just a tolerance from the cast or if the cylinders actually pushed the case in due to expansion or whatever? it possibly may not have any effect on anything,but safe is safe..
I haven´t weighed the valves yet,I have a good scale at work and will weigh them today.There´s pros and cons for sure about sodium filled valves,I agree.These Valves are made by the same company that makes the valves for some of the WRC cars - so I don´t have any doubts really.

[70Turbobug]

I forgot something,another way,which is easier,level out the edge and ride the dial indicator along the spigot and record the difference the needle shows.The indicator I used didn´t have a ball at the end,which forced me to be more creative..

[Wally]

Its difficult to picture what you described exactly, but I think I see what you mean/did. If I understand correctly, you measured the surface of each spigot hole to be flat and it was not.
Thats important of course, if not alone for sealing, but you still don't know if the distance from the crank centerline is equal for all cylinders right? Or did I miss s/th in your descirption?

I like the superalloy valves of Ferrea and Manley, but thats said, the korean stainless $60,- per 4 valves (15 each therefore) from aircooled.net worked well in the 270 hp version of my stock-ish 2 ltr 914 turbo engine for quit a while at that power level, so more may be overkill anyways ;)

[Sandeep]

Good to hear you're almost ready to build Mark.

Are you doing anything special to the inside of the case as far as smoothing any sharp edges ? My webcam magnum straight cut gear set should be here any day now, so its almost time to dust off the engine assembly bench :D

Looking forward to your updates.

Sandeep

[70Turbobug]

If I understand correctly, you measured the surface of each spigot hole to be flat and it was not.
Thats important of course, if not alone for sealing, but you still don't know if the distance from the crank centerline is equal for all cylinders right? Or did I miss s/th in your descirption?

Exactly.It´s something I normally would not have measured,but the "groove" caused by the cylinders had me thinking something wasn´t right.As far as the centerline goes you´re right,Wally.I think to measure that you would need a fixture of somekind that would allow you to measure the height from the spigot to the mainbearing or the fixture acting as a dummy crank.I don´t know really if that´s the way to do it,but might be a possibility.This would only work if the bearing saddles are also straight and not "crushed".The case had already been line bored 0.50mm over.

Good to hear you're almost ready to build Mark.

Are you doing anything special to the inside of the case as far as smoothing any sharp edges ?

Hi Sandeep,Thanks! Yes, now since the case is beeing milled anyways,I will be smoothing the edges behind the spigots aswell.I may be cutting a hole/slot behind the #2 cylinder spigot for better case ventilation just like my 3 liter case has.Glad to hear you´re almost ready to assemble aswell.Then you will have to move to Germany so we can chase Wally around the track!:lmao:

[Wally]

Then you will have to move to Germany so we can chase Wally around the track!:lmao:

:lmao: Thats some funny sh*t right there! :D

[70Turbobug]

I weighed the valves yesterday.The exhaust valves weigh 90 grams and the intakes weigh 92 grams.

[Wally]

Thats pretty good!
My 40mm non-hollow 8mm exhaust valves are 93 gramms and intakes I can't remember...:o

[70Turbobug]

It´s an average weight for that size valve,so I´m happy.Personally,I prefer a material that is "bullet proof" and can withstand extreme temps rather than a light valve of maybe lesser quality.There´s a spring for everything nowadays.I don´t think I would notice the difference in acceleration or perhaps wear if the valve was 10 or 20 grams lighter.I would rather save weight elsewhere like on the rods and pistons.

[70Turbobug]

Hi everybody,

I´ve got good news and I´ve got bad news.The bad news is that the 2 liter case has several issues.It is all repairable,but it means additional work in a case that I´m no longer confident with for this project.I won´t go into detail,because I´m not the type of guy to slam somebody over the internet ( it's not Remmele btw).The matter is beeing resolved and there are no hard feelings.

The good news is I have a case that is worthy to use.I will be using my case that is set up for a 103x88 T4. I will still retain the 71mm crank and stock rods and the webcam 163,parkerized lifters from Jake Raby and the turbo will also stay the same.Changes are 102mm Deutz tractor cylinders and JE pistons.The Deutz cylinders require a lot of machining to fit,but that has already been taken care of.They should come in sometime next week - hopefully.The only thing left to do on the cylinders is,setting up the deckheight.I´ll post pics of the cylinders as soon as they come in.

[70Turbobug]

The long awaited package has finally arrived! The cylinders are here! Each cylinder is milled for it´s respective cylinder position.The #1 cylinder is milled differently than the # 4 cylinder etc. This is due to the fin size and the type cylinder spacing and so the pushrod tubes fit.
I will still have to mill the cylinders to stock length.The original length is 102,5mm and I will shorten them to 91,4mm.The bore of the this model Deutz cylinder is 101,65mm.This means that a SBC piston can be used.For that I would have to modify my rods which costs more time and money.So...different than originally planned I will be following Wally´s advice and also have the cylinders bored out to 103mm and use the JE 103x71 pistons with the 24mm pin.Together with the copper head gasket from aircooled.net I´ll have a deck of -2,96mm and a 8.33:1 CR.This is the easiest way and will save me further machining and having to mill more than 2 cooling fins from the cylinders.

[Wally]

Very nicely done!
So these will still have to be shortenend and bored right?
With 2366cc you won't ever need more displacement if you turbo it efficiently :-)

[70Turbobug]

Thanks Wally! Yes, the cylinders still have to be shortened and bored.You´re right about the displacement also,I will never need to go any higher.Right now, I have a GT3071R .63 turbine and .50 A/R.That might be a bit too small eventually,but for starters it will do fine until I get comfortable with tuning properly.I´m undecided on which Engine Management System to get.Since the prices are all about the same and they all have pretty much the same features doesn´t make it any easier.So it boils down to how user freindly they are.I´m thinking either DTA,KMS or Haltech...

[Wally]

I'am biassed just like Armin, so I won't comment on that ;-)

[70Turbobug]

LOL...can't imagine why...
I'm leaning towards the KMS because support would be fairly near and the dealer is also an excellent tuner, which would really help me understanding how to tune an efi much better and faster.

[Wally]

You know KMS is a dutch system right? :rolleyes:

[70Turbobug]

Yes, I do. :D I´ve heard a lot of good things about the system. There´s a dealer near Frankfurt that works very intensively with KMS.He´s the one that set up Jürgen´s V8 twin turbo bug and the tiptronic trans for it.

[Bruce.]

The deutz cylinders look interesting. couple of Qs.

Are you using genuine parts or one of the many copies?
The cylinders are Ali, yes? Are they coated?

I thought that Ali pistons and cylinders don't go well together hence the usual plating options. I notice the Deutz pistons have a graphite coating to reduce wear.

Or are you planning to get the cylinders plated after the machining is finished?

[70Turbobug]

Hi Bruce - These are original Deutz cylinders. They are cast iron not aluminum.IIRC they are also nitrided but I can't confirm that. After the cylinders have been bored I may have them nitrided.Also I will be using JE pistons.

[Bruce.]

Probably a silly question but what's the advantage over the usual 103x71 cast iron cylinders. Can't be much cheaper?

Thanks

[Xellex]

I really like the deutz cylinders so I have been interested in them, reading all I could find, so I think I can give a few answers to that:
One of the reasons could be the fact that they have more and larger cooling fins.
Another one is the great length of the cylinders, allowing you to run any combination of stroke and rod length.
Another advantage is the thickness of the cylinder wall, making them very strong, eaven when bored to a larger interior diameter.
Oh, and I hear the casting material quality is very good also... better than that of the usual cylinders off the shelf.
And I'm sure there are lots of other advantages, not to mention the coolness factor of this conversion!

[70Turbobug]

Exactly right Xellex! Not to mention that they are cheaper and it is a mass production product which makes them easier to buy.The cheaper price however is can not be really seen as a reason to buy them,because the amount of machining required equals that out.
These cylinders as you see in the pics can be ran with a 90mm stroke.The length of these are 102,5mm with a 101,65mm bore.The wall thickness is 7mm:shocked: Remmele runs these cylinders with a 106mm bore and a 90mm stroke in a type 4 case making 3176ccm.
The strength is far superior to JE cylinders or any other cast iron cylinder for the aircooled vw.
The conversion to deutz cylinders have been around for a long time,even with type 1 also.A few have used these cylinders and modified Porsche 911 heads for OHC conversion,like what Holzapfel did.Remmele does most his of cnc work himself now as he invested in some tooling.Since then,he has decided to go with these cylinders again as they have proven to be the best solution for his big type 4s.They are a pain to machine though,because they are extremely hard.

[Wally]

I think you forgot the ultimate reason: ring sealing. Because they are a stronger design, they stay round better, so ring sealing will be better over time and especially on slight overheating occasions.
All aspects had been mentioned why they are stronger, but not what 'stronger' means to operation ;)
A disadvantage (besides cost due to maching) could be that since they are thicker in some places, the cylinder tends to run hotter. In how far the slightly larger fins help there is difficult to determine.

[Bruce.]

Dp!

[Bruce.]

Thanks gents. Sounds very interesting.

Been lurking around GL for many years and i'm using your impressive work to help motivate me to finish my stalled GL project.

I have a totally restored and painted shell (4 genuine qtrs, 2x doors, etc, etc) in my garage along with a solid but unpainted pan. Oh and a 901 box :)

Just need to find the time to assemble.

[70Turbobug]

Git 'er done Bruce! I know exactly what you mean, this project has taken far too long. I'm hoping to get it on the road this year.

@ Wally: you're absolutely right about the sealing.As far as the temperatures are concerned we will have to see. I don't think they will be any hotter than stock cylinders though and the 911 fan should keep the temps down also.

[IMPI]

Hi The reason that deutz cylinders are so good is because they are made from ductile iron. this is a form of cast iron that is also maleable. I once dropped a cylinder and it bent. Being in a hurry I hammered the dent out and re honed it. it was perfect. this translates into the ability to hold boost better
Armand

[70Turbobug]

We have ground power units at work (Airbus Operations,Germany) with Deutz aircooled turbodiesel industrial engines in them that we use as generators for our aircraft.They run all day at full throttle with 2 bar boost in a confined metal compartment (trailer).I have yet to see an engine failure in the past 11 years I´ve been working there.I guess you can say,that convinced me to use them :D. The use of Deutz cylinders on acvw is nothing new and was more common in the 80's and 90's.We will see how well they adapt to a turbocharged acvw.The Deutz engines are cast iron blocks,so we will see what happens with an aluminum case,but I am confident that there will be no problems.

[70Turbobug]

Here´s a small update:
I finally got around to shortening the cylinders and machining the heads to fit the Deutz cylinders.My thanks goes out to Remmele´s machinist and mechanic Peter for his time and expertise.They were a real bitch to machine because they are so hard.The first step was to literally knock off a couple of cooling fins,then machine the rough spots down to be able finish the work on the lathe.He installed a new bit,machined the 4 cylinders and the bit was dull or basically trash after that! The heads were of course no problem at all.All together it took about 6 hours to do.
The length of the cylinders are now the same as stock (or very close) of 127.69mm the outside diameter is 115.88,which we did not change.
The next step is to bore and hone the cylinders out for the 103mm pistons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZvlS9BBxxU

yes,we did spray oil regularly on the bit and cylinder.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9DZWZnaZX4

Mark

[SuperRSi]

OK Mark, time for some progress info and pictures...

[70Turbobug]

Hey Randy!

There´s quite a bit to report since this thread was last active.Randy dug up some bones here! But I´m glad you did! The most work went into the floor pan.It has been reinforced with steel round bar,blasted and galvanized,then painted with a corrosion inhibiting paint used on truck trailers and the a further corrosion resistant paint/compound called Brantho Korrux 3 in 1. I bolted the suspension up,but i still have to do a few adjustmenst so the uni-ball set up lines up properly.Since I have the real wide 944 turbo S2 trailing arms which are 7,5 cm wider than stock IRS and aprox. 3cm wider than the older model 944 turbo trailing arms,I´ll have to shim them at the front mount.I´ve also decided to replace the bearings in them,so I´ll be taking that all apart today.
The front spindles are stock and not modified but have Remmele aluminum hubs that came off of a former Käfer Cup car and the torsion plates/springs in the front beam have been replaced by Remmele´s uni-ball set up.This allows the trailing arms to move independantly without stress on the beam or the other side.The final step will be to incorporate a supportarm for the trailing arms.This will give the 1200 suspension the same characteristic as a double wishbone set up.The "problem" I have at the moment is that the brake caliper adapters don´t fit my big 996 Carrera brakes.Most of the Cup cars back then ran 304mm discs and mine are 318mm,which also has a different offset.So now I am waiting for new adapters to be made. I also started routing brake lines and installed the 944 turbo master cylinder.I will also be installing a brake proportioning valve once the body is on the pan.I also have new 7,5x17 and 8,5x17 Porsche wheels off of a Boxster.I´ll have to shot some pics of those.
I will be completing the engine soon also,I just have to make room first so I can build it in a somewhat sterile environment.Further updates are carbon fiber running boards,widened epoxy fenders front 3cm wider rear 6cm wider.Tires are 215/40/17 and 245/40/17.
I had instruments made from Speed Hut instruments.I am absolutely exstatic about the product quality and service. Autometer doesn´t even come close to these imho.Everything you need is included and all top notch.Even a custom order only took 3 weeks to delivery and that beeing shipped overseas.Fantastic! I will be ordering further instruments also.

http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r775/70Turbobug/DSC_0417_zpsdf3c4765.jpg~original (http://s1366.photobucket.com/user/70Turbobug/media/DSC_0417_zpsdf3c4765.jpg.html)

http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r775/70Turbobug/DSC_0418_zps21c9c9f1.jpg~original (http://s1366.photobucket.com/user/70Turbobug/media/DSC_0418_zps21c9c9f1.jpg.html)

http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r775/70Turbobug/DSC_0469_zpsdd53bffb.jpg~original (http://s1366.photobucket.com/user/70Turbobug/media/DSC_0469_zpsdd53bffb.jpg.html)

http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r775/70Turbobug/DSC_0471_zps75d0118c.jpg~original (http://s1366.photobucket.com/user/70Turbobug/media/DSC_0471_zps75d0118c.jpg.html)

http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r775/70Turbobug/DSC_0314_zps493a7152.jpg~original (http://s1366.photobucket.com/user/70Turbobug/media/DSC_0314_zps493a7152.jpg.html)

http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r775/70Turbobug/DSC_0313_zps869abd36.jpg~original (http://s1366.photobucket.com/user/70Turbobug/media/DSC_0313_zps869abd36.jpg.html)

http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r775/70Turbobug/DSC_0312_zps4d5c4739.jpg~original (http://s1366.photobucket.com/user/70Turbobug/media/DSC_0312_zps4d5c4739.jpg.html)

I´ll post some more pics soon..

[4agedub]

Very nice.
I like your suspension braces at the back

[70Turbobug]

Thanks!

[DORIGTT]

Updates?