adapting/machining drum to 5x100 brakes and wheels

[rambo1303]

Im gathering information about adapting VW GOLF brakes .
there are probebly two options :
The first is to machine a new hub that its outside should fit the Golf brake rotor and the inside should be machined to the beetle spindle in the front or stubs in the rear , the hub is going to be studded to a 5x100pcd brakes or what ever rotor dimantions you are planing on using.

the second option is to machine a regular beetle drum to the Golf rotor inside diamantion then stud it in the 5X100 pcd.

the advantge of the first option would be that you can ditermine the offset of your wheel by the way you machine your own hub too your wheel to fit under your fender.
and you can detrmine the matirial to make it, probebly some sort of aluminum ,so you get less mass redusing bearing friction.
its disadvantge would be its cost and the fact that you need to plan the hub from scratch.

the advantge of the second option is probebly that i would cost less and take less time to make.

for both options you would need to make brackets out of scratch.

I have two things I havent figured out ,the pcd on beetle drum is 4x130 the golf is 5x100 , where is the best point to drill the drum in order not to get a too weak of a hub ,and not to get the circular mass disturbed.

I know the best solution would be to get blank drums but im tring to keep low costs because im from Israel and you can only get here new drums on stock 4X130 so ordering from CIP and such would not be cost affective.

ok thats it im sorry for the long post , If any one have some information to add I would really apriciate it!
THANKS

p.s
im posting on thesamba.com forums also

[seangfy]

lanner at vee dub enginering he sells it all i just bought a kit using the r32 312mm rotor and the gti caliper great stuff also orderd driled drums from so cal imports

http://vdubengineering.com/products/brakes/golf.htm

[Bug@5speed(US)]

Lanner good work and a good guy
His kits are simple and save you work.
Also good quality and sturdy bits
Alex

[evilC]

Whilst I don't doubt the quality of Lanner's kit the question that I would ask is much more fundamental:

Given that you will have a free hand in the choice of systems why choose a sliding caliper with an integral handbrake? the sliding caliper is a cheap (production) method of providing a caliper. It has nowhere near the performance of a twin pot or 4 pot or even 6 pot caliper. The parking brake method of clamping the disc is again a cheap production method for acheiving a parking brake and it has some serious disadvantages namely 1) the mechanical advantage is poor compared with a drum brake and 2) the heat generated can cause a false parking brake application that on cooling release that friction so that brake is non-operational. My wife very often failed to engage the parking brake properly (not for the want of trying) on our previous Audi (same caliper) resulting in a few embarrasing moments on even slight gradients. I have never been confident that the sliding caliper with parking brake mechanism can perform adequately on the rollers.

I would and have chosen a rear brake that incorporates a drum brake for the parking brake and a separate caliper for the disc(rotor). For a VW the classic arragement is Porsche although I could see others like BMW and Opel working.

[petevw]

Lanner good work and a good guy
His kits are simple and save you work.
Also good quality and sturdy bits
Alex

I second this....Give Lanner a ring, he'll have the solution for you.

Pete

[flat]

Thanks for the good word guys.

It is possible to redrill stock 4-130mm drums, and turn down the OD to match the VW rotor. Stud for M12 and it'll be gravy. The offset increase will be 6mm (thickness of rotor mounting face).Here's an idea of what I've done in the past:

It's pretty low-buck and the caliper bracket isn't too difficult to make to attach to stock drum backingplate holes.

http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/613511.jpg

It's pretty low-buck and the caliper bracket isn't too difficult to make to attach to stock drum backingplate holes.

Cheers,
Lanner

[rambo1303]

Lanner

I have visited your homepage , your products look great they give motivation to begin my project.
I love the idea of beeing diffrent when it comes to modifications ,as a matther of fact the 944 brakes conversion is practically impossibole in my country because that car was never imported here and the DMV dont alow to import used brake components . using golf brakes is actually the best option.

Im going to be using your drowing!

Thanks

[rambo1303]

Hi Lanner
I have another question if you dont mind reaviling your secrets ..
what type of aluminum are you using for the hubs?

Thanks

[flat]

Sorry for the late reply, your question slipped under the radar....

I use 6061-t6. Keep the sections generous and it'll do the trick. Similar is property to cast 356-t6 which is what Porsche uses.

Lanner

[Steve C]

Hi

I've had two Beetles with 944 hand brakes and one with the Golf style sliding calliper.

The handbrake with the 944 brakes will hold the car on a steep hill, you need to engage the handbrake, and let car lurch a little and then reapply it, as an emergency stopping brake you would get better retardation by opening the door and putting your foot on the ground LOL. I had new brake linings fitted on both cars and they were adjusted correctly. It is easy to drive off with the handbrake still applied, it makes that little difference.

I'm not sure if this is caused by the Beetle handbrake lever being the wrong ratio, but on my new 1303 I'm planning on using the complete 944 set-up using the 944 lever and cables, hopefully this will help this problem.

Does anybody on here own Porsche 944 and would like to comment on the handbrake effectiveness?

When I used 914 rotors with Golf slider callipers my handbrake could lock the rear wheels at speed.

Steve

[badassdubs]

Hi
Does anybody on here own Porsche 944 and would like to comment on the handbrake effectiveness?
Steve

I owned a 944 for 9 years and the hand brake always worked. It would hold in any situation.

I also built/own this. Complete 944 drive train. 944 hand brake installed to the left of the drivers seat, same as the 944. Hand brake works excellent.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e356/badassdubs/vorsche/IMG_8888.jpg~original
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e356/badassdubs/vorsche/HPIM0716.jpg~original
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e356/badassdubs/vorsche/pic12004420copyaa.jpg~original

[vdubzack]

That car is SICK!!!

[Steve C]

Hi

Nice car MR badass. That answers a question, so to get a 944 handbrake to work effectively the Beetle handbrake ratio needs to be altered.

I have converted me daily 1303 to 5x100, I'm using BBS wheels from a Subaru on it, the Subaru centre bore is fairly small so I had to really cut down the Beetle grease cap on the front to fit inside the Subaru centre bore, the grease cap also pokes out a fair bit as well.

Steve

http://www.clubvw.org.au/images/2009_0926OranPark0069.jpg

[evilC]

The 944 parking brake on our 1303 with beetle handbrake lever works well when set up properly. However, it is very easy to miss the guide at the hand brake end with the cable and that gives a crap parking brake. It took me a little while to figure out what was going on as I had too many variables (modified bits) in the system. Even when I thought I had put the cable in the guide it would somehow jump out leaving me in the same situation as I started with - careful attention to its installation solved the problem.

Clive

[badassdubs]

The 944 parking brake on our 1303 with beetle handbrake lever works well when set up properly. However, it is very easy to miss the guide at the hand brake end with the cable and that gives a crap parking brake. It took me a little while to figure out what was going on as I had too many variables (modified bits) in the system. Even when I thought I had put the cable in the guide it would somehow jump out leaving me in the same situation as I started with - careful attention to its installation solved the problem.

Clive

Thanks guys. More here at my web site. http://www.badassdubs.com/

I do have to agree with Clive. Something was probably set up wrong.

[Steve C]

Hi

Sorry to be going off subject here.

My handbrake cables do go correctly around the circular guides on the base of the Beetle handbrake lever, that's a 1st year apprentice error.

On my 1st 944 rear set-up I used the existing 944 swan necks and adapted the Beetle cables to fit, on my 2nd set-up I used the kit from Lanner with the modified swan necks and sleeve on the handbrake cable tube.

Both set-ups worked about as well as one another, they will hold on a hill no problem, but there is no way that they will lock the back wheels at speed, I think that it is a lever ratio problem, I'm just not able exert enough tension on the cable to lock the brakes.

Steve

[evilC]

Hi

Sorry to be going off subject here.

My handbrake cables do go correctly around the circular guides on the base of the Beetle handbrake lever, that's a 1st year apprentice error.

On my 1st 944 rear set-up I used the existing 944 swan necks and adapted the Beetle cables to fit, on my 2nd set-up I used the kit from Lanner with the modified swan necks and sleeve on the handbrake cable tube.

Both set-ups worked about as well as one another, they will hold on a hill no problem, but there is no way that they will lock the back wheels at speed, I think that it is a lever ratio problem, I'm just not able exert enough tension on the cable to lock the brakes.

Steve

Hi Steve,
I was surprised at the ease that the cables slipped off the quadrant guide even though I had paid particular attention to them. I know now that I have to check, double check and check on completion with these little b*gg*rs.
I too used the 944 swan necks and shortened the beetle cables to suit. I am obverse to paying for something that I can make easily myself.
Having had drum parking brakes with rear discs on several of my previous cars I don't expect to do handbrake turns on little 8"x1 1/2" shoes especially on a tail heavy beetle. However, I do find the parking brake on the disc option even worse especially with sliding calipers where the tendancy is to try and bend the disc initially as the application is one sided. As I intend to autotest our beetle I have added a hydraulic handbrake to create those handbrake turns.
I honestly don't think there is anything intrinsically wrong with the VW handbrake. I would not look to increase the leverage as the travel distance between on and off will be uncomfortably large.

Clive

[Steve C]

Hi Clive

I actually managed to use stock length cables in my 1st set-up, I bolted the Beetle handbrake cable to the stock 944 swan neck and altered the length of the 944 handbrake tube that goes into the backing plate to get it correct.

My 944 set-up in my daily 1303 works OK as parking brake, but I always let the car settle and give it another click, I would fit a hydraulic handbrake if I felt the need for it.

I agree the sliding type callipers are a compromise, I've even heard of OEM brackets bending when doing handbrake turns.

I will see how well the 944 lever and cables work in my new 1303.

Steve

[blitzvw]

Here in South Africa, you can buy a hub and caliper bracket kit that allows you to run a Golf MK1/Rabbit front disc and caliper combo on a linkpin front end....

Hubs are also available to run the same disc and Golf/Audi rear caliper on the swingaxle rear end...
:cool:

[evilC]

Here in South Africa, you can buy a hub and caliper bracket kit that allows you to run a Golf MK1/Rabbit front disc and caliper combo on a linkpin front end....

Hubs are also available to run the same disc and Golf/Audi rear caliper on the swingaxle rear end...
:cool:

The big problems with using the Golf/Audi rear caliper are three fold:

1) the rear caliper is undersized for most front calipers. The front/rear brake balance is severely affected. The straight transfer of a set of brakes from a front engined car is bound to cause problems as the weight transfer under braking loads the front end so that the braking effect can be distributed up to 80%/20% front/rear, whereas the beetle needs 50/50 braking effort after weight transfer. Look at the 911 set-ups to give you the idea.

2) Sliding calipers IMO are a cheap jack solution. They are designed to cheapen the production costs with (only) adequate brake performance. If you are moving from drum to disc brakes you will be doing so for performance reasons - right? If so, then you ought to discount sliding calipers in favour of opposed piston calipers of 2,4,6 or God forbid 8 pots. It is noticeable that none of the performance caliper suppliers offer a sliding caliper, they are all opposing piston calipers.

3) Parking brakes should be separate from the main caliper as they invariably weaken the reliability of the hydraulics especially at the back where there is more than enough crap being thrown around on a street car. Parking brakes on discs are also notoriously weak, inefficient and unreliable. A drum brake even if it works on the disc bell is much more efficient. If VAG don't offer a drum parking brake then GM do on most of their Euro designed cars. If however, you are stuck with the parking brake operating on the disc then a separate mechanical caliper would be the better solution. Jaguar were doing that in the '60s, Wilwood offer one and it should be easy to adapt a motorcycle one to fit.

I make no apologies for expressing my dislike for sliding caliper brakes and especially those with integral parking brake although, I will admit to having fitted some 944 single pot calipers to the front of the bug as an interim measure.:rolleyes:

Clive

[blitzvw]

The big problems with using the Golf/Audi rear caliper are three fold:

1) the rear caliper is undersized for most front calipers. The front/rear brake balance is severely affected. The straight transfer of a set of brakes from a front engined car is bound to cause problems as the weight transfer under braking loads the front end so that the braking effect can be distributed up to 80%/20% front/rear, whereas the beetle needs 50/50 braking effort after weight transfer. Look at the 911 set-ups to give you the idea.

2) Sliding calipers IMO are a cheap jack solution. They are designed to cheapen the production costs with (only) adequate brake performance. If you are moving from drum to disc brakes you will be doing so for performance reasons - right? If so, then you ought to discount sliding calipers in favour of opposed piston calipers of 2,4,6 or God forbid 8 pots. It is noticeable that none of the performance caliper suppliers offer a sliding caliper, they are all opposing piston calipers.

3) Parking brakes should be separate from the main caliper as they invariably weaken the reliability of the hydraulics especially at the back where there is more than enough crap being thrown around on a street car. Parking brakes on discs are also notoriously weak, inefficient and unreliable. A drum brake even if it works on the disc bell is much more efficient. If VAG don't offer a drum parking brake then GM do on most of their Euro designed cars. If however, you are stuck with the parking brake operating on the disc then a separate mechanical caliper would be the better solution. Jaguar were doing that in the '60s, Wilwood offer one and it should be easy to adapt a motorcycle one to fit.

I make no apologies for expressing my dislike for sliding caliper brakes and especially those with integral parking brake although, I will admit to having fitted some 944 single pot calipers to the front of the bug as an interim measure.:rolleyes:

Clive

I have driven a Beetle with Golf discs all round and was very impressed as to how quickly the car stopped, with no locking up etc

And the handbrake worked just fine...

Theory is one thing - Actual real world performance is another :rolleyes:

[judgie]

i run stock bug disc's on the front with aftermarket disc's on the rear with a bug front cailper mounted on custom brakets. only have a hydro handbrake as its a compertition car but thinking about having a seperate hydro cailper at the rear just for the hand brake.
cra has 150bhp at the wheels and is quick, have not had any brake probs yet with it but putting it back 9on the road and poss some track days next year might mean having to go to vented discs on the front and some bigger cailpers.
what most forget about when doing brake upgrades is tyre conbtact as this has just as much affect on stopping as big brakes. no good have 315mm dics and 6 pot monoblock calipers if your running a 165/15 tyre
cheers rob

[rambo1303]

Wanted to share , Im using Seat Ibiza 20vt brakes, Seat to all you americans is a spanish car maker from VAG family .the Ibiza share parts with Golf, the calipers are same as golf A4 and are also manufactured by Lucas, the rotors are also 288mm diameter except its 4X100 not 5X100. I machined the front drums to take the rotors. I want to thank Lanner that helped me with some advice about where to drill and tap the holes.
I hope to upload some photos soon.

[cookvw]

im wanting to fit mk1 golf gti brakes using 4x100. i wanna machine my drums down to fit over the rotor just like you did. i wanna see some pics for sure. Porsche brakes are great and all but wheel slection sucks IMO.

[DORIGTT]

I personally don't think they suck, they're just so expensive and have limited availability to get 16 or 17" aftermarket wheels in the 5x130 pattern Porsche uses.

Now the current 4x100, 5x100, 5x112 etc have alot better availability and are starting to have some decent offset offerings as well.

[rambo1303]

Hi , I uploaded some pics to the samba http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_cat.php?cat_id=39

I didnt make the caliper bracket yet.

[Joel]

I personally don't think they suck, they're just so expensive and have limited availability to get 16 or 17" aftermarket wheels in the 5x130 pattern Porsche uses.

Now the current 4x100, 5x100, 5x112 etc have alot better availability and are starting to have some decent offset offerings as well.

Couldn't agree more.
I would have loved turbo twists on mine but went with 4x100 for several reasons.

once you go 5x130 your limited to Porsche only so not much of a range and all on the exy side.
Not only that offsets and widths are a problem, nearly all turbo twists are 17x7et55 on the front which works fine but 9" on the rear is a problem if you want to keep stock fenders.

4x100 rims in 17" are nearly always 7" et40-45 so fit bugs with stock fenders beautifully.
Nearly every small to medium car from mid 80s till 00s was 4x100 or 4x114.3 so choice is almost unlimited and they are always forsale both second hand or new

If I ever do it again though I will probably go 5x100 or 5x114.3 though as they're becoming more mainstream

[rambo1303]

ok I finished the conversion with my own custom made bracket

pictures

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=811432
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=811433
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=811434