choosing roll cages

[oasis]

From what I understand an SCCA-spec roll cage is better than a Class 11 roll cage. I also understand how the unit is welded is important.

I went to the SCCA site and scanned some of their rules and such. I'm sure it is there somewhere but I did not see what makes a roll cage an SCCA type.

I haven't had a subscription to a VW mag in a few years but I remember seeing Class 11's being advertised quite a bit. Maybe SCCA's are advertised, too, but I just don't remember them.

Anyway (and assuming this is for a 1302 or 1303), how do find out the differences? Where do I find them? Is there a way of assessing them in advance?

I ask the third question because even though I am only in the planning stage for GL#2, I will not be racing my car but I will want protection against accidents.

[evilC]

Why not consult the roll cage suppliers. If a similar question arose in the UK that is where I would go first.

Interestingly, over here apart from drag racing most of the cages are FIA (international) and MSA (National) approved. FIA cages can be used at National level but not necessarily the other way round. In the MSA Blue Book that have the regs for all motorsport thare are various patterns for the cages and some are approved for FIA use.

Clive

[vwdreaming]

take a look at Ron Lummus racing they have a nice bolt in and weld in cage its nhra legal not sure about scca specs. its not the cheapest but it is nice.

you can order it throu aircooled.net if u like

[Kafer_Mike]

Autopower (www.autopowerindustries.com used to make a SCCA and NASA legal cage for Beetles. I don't see it on their site, but they may still offer it.

Be careful running a rollcage on the street. They can be more dangerous than running without due to the increased risk of head injuries -- especially for rear passengers. They're really meant for applications where you should be wearing a helmet...

[Humble]

What roll cage you run really depends on your goal with the car. race car or street car?

A class 11 roll cage is okay (as in better than nothing) but there are better designs out there. NHRA, SCCA, and FIA all have different cage requirements, and like Clive said what works for one may not work for others. The FIA has several standards and everyone picks and chooses for their given safety requirements. Fore the most part an SCCA track cage is probably the best bet. If you look at my race cage it's a minimum spec SCCA cage. It started out as a weld in RLR cage and I made a couple additions to keep it legal.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l44/humblewolf/Lucy/HPIM0146.jpg~original

The minimum (as of this posting) is a standard 6 point cage, main hoop, down bars, head bar, rear cage stays, main hoop diagonal, door X on the drivers side and single door bar for the passenger. For race purposes, as of July of this year SCCA and NASA, require you to tie your down bars to the A-pillars. I opted for a dash bar and passenger side door X since it's good to have equal protection for the passenger.

A couple rules of thumb for cages, 10 lbs per point and $100 per point but cost/weight go up when you start cross bracing. Having done a couple of pre-made cages (weld in and bolt in) I would highly recommend taking to a shop to have the cage installed. They have the proper tools, they've done it hundreds of times and they can get a super tight fit the first time. The shop can also design the cage for the specific car and driver. That never happens with bolt in or weld in cages. I like the RLR cage and it's a necessity, but I'll replace it with a much better custom cage down the road.

[Humble]

double post :P

[evilC]

One extra that is worth considering is to gusset the tube connections for much additional rigidity. Roll cages are worth as much for the stiffening of the chassis as for their primary protection role so that multipoint connections to the bodywork is IMO a vital part of the installation.

Clive

[oasis]

I read and appreciated all of the responses. I will reread them several times when I get home. One alarming quote I have listed below.

Be careful running a rollcage on the street. They can be more dangerous than running without due to the increased risk of head injuries -- especially for rear passengers. They're really meant for applications where you should be wearing a helmet...

I'm not worried about the rear passengers as the next 1302/1303 will not have a rear seat as it nears completion. (We may adopt a dog, but that's another story for another time.)

I am very sure I won't be racing. I was interested in a roll cage for protection. If it offered more rigidity, too, so much the better. However, I am not planning on wearing a helmet when jamming to the beach or the local grocer.

[owdlvr]

I am very sure I won't be racing. I was interested in a roll cage for protection. If it offered more rigidity, too, so much the better. However, I am not planning on wearing a helmet when jamming to the beach or the local grocer.

If you're that concerned about protection, you honestly shouldn't be driving a beetle. A roll cage in a standard road-going vehicle is going to protect you in some instances, but provide far more of a risk in others. Will you be investing in proper SFI roll bar padding, or doing what most non-racers do and use pipe insulation?

In an accident you would be shocked to see how much your body flexes and moves, a standard road-going car with cage and without helmet is far more dangerous then a simple car without cage. Your head off the roll bar is a seriously tough object to avoid. The cage will be of benefit in some accidents where you might otherwise be killed, but a liability in any lower-speed accident where you are unlikely to be killed.

I ran my Audi rally car as a street car, with cage and proper padding, for years...and I can tell you that driving a caged car daily is a complete pain-in-the-ass. **assuming we're talking "cage" here and not just a rear-seat roll bar.

-Dave

[evilC]

If you're that concerned about protection, you honestly shouldn't be driving a beetle. A roll cage in a standard road-going vehicle is going to protect you in some instances, but provide far more of a risk in others. Will you be investing in proper SFI roll bar padding, or doing what most non-racers do and use pipe insulation?

In an accident you would be shocked to see how much your body flexes and moves, a standard road-going car with cage and without helmet is far more dangerous then a simple car without cage. Your head off the roll bar is a seriously tough object to avoid. The cage will be of benefit in some accidents where you might otherwise be killed, but a liability in any lower-speed accident where you are unlikely to be killed.

I ran my Audi rally car as a street car, with cage and proper padding, for years...and I can tell you that driving a caged car daily is a complete pain-in-the-ass. **assuming we're talking "cage" here and not just a rear-seat roll bar.

-Dave

I concur with everthing you say but there are some plus points:
1) A cage can give psychological comfort so the driver is more relaxed and therefore more responsive.
2) A cage will stiffen the bodyshell/chassis so that its response is more accurate and reliable resulting in better active protection. (less likely to get into an accident in the first place)
3) On a beetle there are no crumple zones or a stiff passenger cell to protect the passengers so a cage within the cabin at least provides a stiffer passenger cell.
4) Extending the cage forward to the front suspension area will improve chassis stiffness as well as giving the opportunity to add progressive collapse thus bringing the vehicle up towards modern standards.

The effectiveness of a cage was brought home to me some years ago during our clubs national level road rally. One of the front running Escorts was pulled off a narrow tarmac single track road by the muddy goo at the edge of the verge and then ploughed through a 18" thick brick buttress to a barn. It was almost a grotesque cartoon as the Escort shape was bitten out of the solid raking buttress. The front 1/4 of the car ended up at the dashboard, where it was stopped by the cage. The driver sustained a broken ankle only (the navigator was only shaken and stirred). This all happened at between 100 - 110mph as it was a flat out section with few bends in the preceeding 2 miles. The cage demonstrated its strength on that occasion.

Our MSA (Motor Sports Association - the governing body) recommend cages for road rallying even though helmets are not allowed. They don't insist on cages as the events are only supposed to be 'navigational' and standard road cars are encouraged; the sight of drivers and navigators wearing helmets on public roads would also incense the public.

Clive

[Wally]

the sight of drivers and navigators wearing helmets on public roads would also incense the public.

Clive

Yeah, by all means, lets not incense the public with our cars :D (I just learned a new word in english!, tnx Clive ;) )

I am actually contemplating a cage as wel. I don't like them, but kinda have to...
I use the car mostly for circuit-like driving, not competitively, so no rules there, but need the official approval for when I participate in drag racing, where cage rules ARE mandatory. Only if you run faster than 12 seconds though, but I am afraid that will happen coming year.

So, would a FIA approved cage be good/legal(NHRA) for a <12 second car in drag racing?

[Humble]

I think every fia or scca cage is overkill by nhra/drag standards. I do highly recommends getting a professionally built cage for street cars though. It will look tons better and the tight fit will blend in with the interior easier.

[Wally]

Thanks, it will probably be a Heigo 'bolt-in' cage then, which fit very nice/tight from what I've seen.

[owdlvr]

Thanks, it will probably be a Heigo 'bolt-in' cage then, which fit very nice/tight from what I've seen.

From what I can understand on the site, they look like a good design. Interesting to see they offer aluminum cages...show only I hope!

-Dave

[oasis]

That's a lot to chew on. I can now see Humble's pic now that I am home -- my work computer disallows picture hosting sites including the one I use.

First, about Humble's pic ... the cage I saw once was not quite as robust as Humble's but I thought it might give more real protection than the loop that goes around the seat backs and extends back with four points of connection to the chassis. It had a single sidebar running diagonally rather than the X on both sides. It also did not have the X behind the driver and passenger.

The side X's might be a bit much for an old fart like me who has had both knees scoped and gets regular cortizone shots throughout the year.

As for padding, I definitely assumed I would get padding. Whatever proper padding is, that would be fine.

BTW, I understand being safe would mean I would keep the bug parked and I would drive my Eos all of the time. I never felt totally unsafe in my 1302, but I wasn't foolish in thinking I was safe. I actually thought the improvements I made with its engine, brakes, suspension, etc. made me have more fun but also more safe. I was thinking a rollcage would take it further -- especially if I took my next project further than the 1302.

The cage I saw seem to run just inside the roofline quite neatly, and didn't seem to intrude in the footwell area even though it bolted there as well. (I assume bolted; it could have been welded. I wasn't checking on details at the time.)

Attaching the cage to the suspension sounds very good but it also sounds very involved. The set-up my 1302 had seemed to have excellent tortional stiffness to me, so I'm not sure I need that for my application.

I guess I need to check some sites specifically. The link above showed a couple. I'm not familiar with Heigo but I will search that.

Will proper padding and the cage I described be worthwhile, or just a nice looking trouble waiting to happen in a smaller accident with my head dangling around without a helmet? How do I know what proper padding is? The only padding I ever really saw was for a Thing (Type 181), and evena novice like me could tell it was pretty stinking minimal.

Thanks, everyone.

[evilC]

The basic cage you describe is probably a 6 point fitting that is strong enough for internationally homologated classic rally cars. The quality of fit is down to the manufacturer/supplier. As regards head contact the roll cage is no harder than the door frame and the chances of it coming to meet your head in an accident is far less than with the plain door frame.
I have rolled a road rally car with a half cage (rear hoop and rear braces only). The cage actually saved us with no injuries save for the navigator that was nicked once with flying glass when the side window caved in. However, the windscreen and front door frame crushed back that convinced me the value of the front cage. Door bars are useful but a pain in the a**e in normal use.
Roll cage rubber is a must:- http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/products/ProductList.asp?cls=MSPORT&grp=MP229&pgrp=M018&tlgrp=MS005 as an example. Previous to using the FIA nominated spec we used Armorflex pipe lagging. Its generally used in refridge pipework is a min 1/2" thick, medium density and carries a fire proof (self extinguishing) certification. I'm sure you could find something similar from your air-con suppliers.

Clive

[Wally]

This is the Heigo cage I would like to install. The design with the door bars that you can remove are just what I am after. And I like it that I do not need to leave my car with some welding dude in a distant garage.

http://www.heigo.de/ASP/index.asp?IXP=-1&PID=&ACT=102&WKA=626&WKC=1&CAT=2&SCAT=Volkswagen

[Humble]

For a cage in a street car there's really only 2 places to worry about, the upper door frame and main hoop behind driver and passenger. With my cage the down bars next to the upper door frame is pretty close to the driver and passenger, as is the main hoop. I have hit my head on the bar just getting in and out of the car and knocked it leanering into a corner. Padding is a must but the closer the cage gets to the body the less you have to worry about it.

[oasis]

Thanks for the responses, guys. That is plenty for me to go on for now.

The Heigo site gave me a message that started out by saying, "Session-Objekte konnten nicht gelesen werden." Then, it listed different versions of Internet Explorer, Netscape, etc. and (without yet translating it) I think it told me steps I needed to view the site. I will translate it further later when I have the time.

Thanks again. :)

[Wally]

The Heigo site gave me a message that started out by saying, "Session-Objekte konnten nicht gelesen werden." Then, it listed different versions of Internet Explorer, Netscape, etc. and (without yet translating it) I think it told me steps I needed to view the site. I will translate it further later when I have the time.

Thanks again. :)

Actually, when I tried my own link, it did just the same...:o
I copied the image for you. There are more detailed pics of the cage, bit it was too much trouble to copy them all. If you really like, you can navigate through their menu and find the 'käfige' (cages) for volkswagen bug models (lot of bug models specified to my surprise!).

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Chassis/Heigokfig.jpg~original

[oasis]

Great! That cage looks very similar to the one I had seen once upon a time.

Alright ... SQD Time (Stupid Question of the Day): Is it best -- or the only option -- to take the body off of the chassis first in order to install a roll cage?

[Wally]

Well, I don't intend to ;)

Nah, this is a 'bolt-in' cage. The parts that it consists of can be carried through the doors. Welded-in cages can even only be installed with the body in place, like all other cars that not even have that option like 'we' do with our chassis and body as two seperate parts.

[oasis]

:o works for me :D

[evilC]

Well, I don't intend to ;)

.............. like all other cars that not even have that option like 'we' do with our chassis and body as two seperate parts.

I don't think you could intall a fully welded cage in a beetle in either the body top half or the chassis without doing a lot of final welding with everything bolted together. The back struts to the rear arches would be the first immediate problem. Despite the awkward welding with a cage insitu it does allow a much tighter fit. You can see why on competition cars the cages often go into a bare shell first with everything following after.

The Heigo cage does raise a few questions about the number of pin joints its got although I can see that for ease of installation in a fitted out car there really isn't much choice.

Clive

[Wally]

The Heigo cage does raise a few questions about the number of pin joints its got ....
Clive
It does have FIA approval according to their site if the door bars are installed, for what its worth...
Personally I will go that direction.

[evilC]

It does have FIA approval according to their site if the door bars are installed, for what its worth...
Personally I will go that direction.

I don't doubt the approval and I can see how attractive it is (both in itself and for your installation). My comment was really a generality that if you can weld the joints you will have a cage that is very rigid (and strong), which can also contribute significantly to stiffness of the car.

Having said that I do appreciate that you can design a full space frame structure based on pin joints.:)

Clive

[Wally]

I absolutely agree that a welded cage when done properly is stronger and makes the car more stiff than a bolted-in cage.
As they say: pick your poison ;-)

[vugbug71]

Interesting post, just what i was looking for. I have a 71 super that i was thinking of putting a roll bar in, but i'm trying to decide if i actually need it or if its more for looks. I already have one similar to this one
http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/413459.jpg

the car is not going to be raced and not a daily either, mainly i'm going to thrash it on winding backroads.

If i end up using it what could i do to help reinforce it and strengthen the car as well

[chug_A_bug]

even if you are Ripping it on the TWISTIES I would put a roll bar in but you could stiffen up the car by...
kafer bar, Bilsteins shocks, bigger torsion bars, urethane bushings, convertable pan stiffeners,

hope that helps..

Chris.

[evilC]

The roll cage can provide a good deal of stiffness to the chassis and can link the body more fully to the chassis that will further stiffen things. People often forget that the body can contribute and rely solely on the cage.
If you weld tabs onto the cage at about 1/2 way up the door frame and bolt to door frame and similarly at the top of the cage where the bend occurs. Also, the same for the front legs of the cage to the door fame and A pillar.
Cross link the front legs at the base of the dash and if feasible at the top of the dash.
There should be a cross tube at about mid seat back height but that would affect the rear seat availability. If so, then put a cross tube immediately in front of the seat frame, which can be also bolted to the tranny tunnel.
Diagonal cross tubes across the car is a bit of a must to stop the cage lozenging but this again buggers the rear seat access. If making it removeable is a hassle then consider putting bracing gussets at the bends at the top of the cage and at the cross tubes. The principle here is to get stiff joints/changes in direction if its not possible to triangulate.
Door bars are well worth having but full on door bars are a real pain except in a competition only car. Here keep the bars within the side profile shape of the seat and if that means fairly low down use gussets to add a little extra.
If you can take a pair of tubes through the front bulkhead to link to the top of the Macpherson strut that will also have a strut brace (right?).
Provide some good boxed sections onto the heater channels and the plate legs down onto the floor pans.
I've mentioned gusset braces and these can be formed by bending some 16g over a pice of tube the same size as the cage and then weld to both members. Its a strong but smooth stiffener.

Clive

[zen]

Good info here. I have debated (only in my mind) for years about putting one in mine. Mine is a street only car, but mainly wanted it to cover the lack of crumble zones and for side impact protection (not bullet-proof, but better than nothing approach). The challenge with my car is the chopped top. I assume that only leaves me with the option of a custom built cage...and hunting down someone in the area that can do it and is willing to do it at a reasonable price.

[vugbug71]

even if you are Ripping it on the TWISTIES I would put a roll bar in but you could stiffen up the car by...
kafer bar, Bilsteins shocks, bigger torsion bars, urethane bushings, convertable pan stiffeners,

hope that helps..

Chris.
Thanks, I have a rear sway bar from Topline, urethane bushsings and trans mounts along with big shocks off a truck!

[vugbug71]

And Thanks to Clive for the excellent info. That is pretty much what i had in mind, there is no back seat in this so that wont be a problem. I think i'm going to weld a cross tube in the middle of the roll bar and then weld tubes to where the heater tubes would be (under the back seat area) going down diagnally from the cross bar.

[evilC]

Good info here. I have debated (only in my mind) for years about putting one in mine. Mine is a street only car, but mainly wanted it to cover the lack of crumble zones and for side impact protection (not bullet-proof, but better than nothing approach). The challenge with my car is the chopped top. I assume that only leaves me with the option of a custom built cage...and hunting down someone in the area that can do it and is willing to do it at a reasonable price.

I am also conscious that the bug was not designed with modern crumple zone protection but here is an example of the value of a full roll cage in protecting the occupants from a serious impact.

In 1980 I was chief marshal on our car club's restricted status road rally. On one section through the Leicestershire countryside one of the front running Ford Escort RS2000 flat fronts slipped slightly off the single track road onto the flat verge. The soft verge pulled the car completely off the road and it skated along at around 90-100mph on sodden wet grass. It went through the 18" thick brick buttress of a barn and came to a halt (as you would expect) before it hit the next buttress. The buttress had a neat car shaped hole in it just like in a cartoon. The car wing was non-existant with the headlamp buried behind the speedo. The driver got out with a shattered ankle that needed hospital treatment but the navigator was unscathed but looking quite pale.
The Mk2 Escort was designed in 1970's and had only a modicum of front crash protection so without any additional protection you could have seen some horiffic injuries. The cage saved any further injuries, the front leg taking the impact and distributing it back via the door bar to the rear hoop that was multi-pointed. From that point on I realised the value of roll cages.

Clive

[Wally]

'Yeah, but that sort of thing would never happen to me you know'.... :rolleyes:

My cage has been payed for and ordered now, so its patience time... (hate that)

[owdlvr]

Wally (or other German speaking folks),

Would you mind translating the options for me? Using google translate I've done my best guess...but I'm not sure on all of them:

600.004 Bügelpolsterung Kopfbereich - ???
600.007 Käfig-Anbauteil (bei Bestellung Hauptbügel anliefern) - Cage attachment? Not sure what this is.
600.011 Querstrebe im Hauptbügel Querstrebe im Hauptbügel - Crossbar - Harness bar in the Main Hoop?
600.014 Diagonalstrebe mit Gabelkopfbefestigung - Transmission Tunnel Bracing? Google Translate says "diagonal with clevis mounting"

Much appreciated if you wouldn't mind!

-Dave

[Wally]

600.004 Bügelpolsterung Kopfbereich - ???
600.007 Käfig-Anbauteil (bei Bestellung Hauptbügel anliefern)
600.011 Querstrebe im Hauptbügel Crossbar - Harness bar in the Main Hoop?
600.014 Diagonalstrebe mit Gabelkopfbefestigung - [I]Transmission Tunnel Bracing?


I'll give it a try ;)
004: Its the bar padding for the bars that run in close proximity of your head.
007: Its a Cage (Käfig) part that is connected to the cage ('when ordering, include the main hoop'; I suppose to make sure it fits)
011: Cross-bar in main hoop
014: Its the diagonal (queer) bar with a bolt-in/on connection. The "Gabelkopf" is probably the same (connection) as the ones you see on the 'Cup strebe' bars and for instance the door bars you can see on the pics of my Heigo cage in my project topic. The actual 'Diagonalstrebe' itself you can also see in those pics as it is bolted to the tunnel center ;)

[owdlvr]

Sweet, thanks!

So I guess I just need to figure out if "011: Cross-bar in main hoop" is what we would call a Harness Bar over here (horizontal bar through the main hoop.

-Dave

[Wally]

Sweet, thanks!

So I guess I just need to figure out if "011: Cross-bar in main hoop" is what we would call a Harness Bar over here (horizontal bar through the main hoop.

-Dave

Diagonal is NOT horizontal... so no need finding out: it isn't!
I don't know where you got these numbers and text from, maybe that will explain more.
If its from Heigo, just look at their pictures that go with that text and it will explain most all I think. Again, if its from Heigo, they don't use a specific harness-bar in their standard cage set-ups.
Did you look at my pics yet?

[owdlvr]

Diagonal is NOT horizontal... so no need finding out: it isn't!
I don't know where you got these numbers and text from, maybe that will explain more.
If its from Heigo, just look at their pictures that go with that text and it will explain most all I think. Again, if its from Heigo, they don't use a specific harness-bar in their standard cage set-ups.
Did you look at my pics yet?

Numbers and text have all been pulled from the Heigo webpage. That's the first time you've called it a diagonal though, "cross-bar" could be anything! :)

I have looked at your cage, and the Heigo website, and you don't have what I would call a Horizontal Harness bar:

http://members.rennlist.com/m758/cage01.jpg

It doesn't look like that's an option from Heigo, so I would either need to weld one in, or perhaps just do something local to this side of the pond. It looks like my Audi Rally car is going to get stripped and crushed, so I'm considering turning my '69 Beetle in to a Targa Rally car. But if I do that, I want a horizontal bar in the main hoop.

Thanks for your help!

-Dave

[Wally]

I have looked at your cage, and the Heigo website, and you don't have what I would call a Horizontal Harness bar:

It doesn't look like that's an option from Heigo,

Your absolutely correct!
I noticed this too and have decided to weld-in those two pieces myself lateron ;)
The heigo cage fits so extremely well and close to the door pillars, that I will probably also just weld A- and B-pillar to the main hoops just for rigidity reasons.

[evilC]

Hi Dave,
Do you need the horizontal bar? The belts could just as effectively be located to fixings directly to the rear shelf. I am not overly impressed with the location of belts on the horizontal bar as it imparts a huge bending moment into the bar (the load would be ~6g for two 100kg bodies i.e. around 1.2T!) and the fixings on the main hoop. I realise that a number of competition cars have it and I can understand the theory where the only other fixing is on the rear seat deck that makes the belts overly long and operating at an angle. If I were choosing the ultimate cage for a bug I would still go for the rear deck fixing for the belts and then use a complete cross brace on the main hoop. No matter what I would still add multipoint fixings as Wally suggests to the cage so that the cage and bodyshell become a complete integral structure.

Clive

[owdlvr]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/50/134622057_52020e5914.jpg

In my rally car we braced the harness bar to the tunnel, but in my next cage the harness bar will likely go into the main hoop. I've had the opportunity to "test" the belts, and they do stretch significantly :P. Due to the length increase, I'm likely to shorten the mounting points on my next car.

Your absolutely correct!
I noticed this too and have decided to weld-in those two pieces myself lateron
The heigo cage fits so extremely well and close to the door pillars, that I will probably also just weld A- and B-pillar to the main hoops just for rigidity reasons.

I'm definitley torn on this whole thing. It's a pain to ship to Canada, but based on your photos it _does_ fit really well to the B-Pillars. I'd be looking at doing just the roll bar and want to keep it a bolt-in feature. So I need to make some choices on whether it's easier just to have the rally shop do the bug, or order a bolt-in.

-Dave