View Full Version : 2004 Karrera Sedan

January 24th 2010, 21:49
Hey all,

I thought it was time to unveil the project I've been collecting parts for for well over a decade, share the fun, and thinker over it with you guys. I've set aside brandnew Porsche parts for this project for as long as I can remember (even when sober).

The basic "rules" for this project are that it will be built as a brandnew car using only new parts. The final look would have to be "factory built", nothing polished, a factory decal here and there, crude yet sophisticated at the same time, using every nook and cranny of the Porsche and VW parts catalogs. Making things fit by selecting the right genuine parts from the entire Porsche/VW range (as much as possible). I have a new parts fetish that borders the insane, I'm known to order a part for fitting/trial assembly only to sell it and order the exact same part just so it could sit in my personal stash in a never opened box...

Funny enough, the car that this project is based upon is one of the things that is still missing, a 2004 modelyear Mexican production sedan with zero miles.

For the past few years I've put most of my energy in my work, building up the company and progress on the Bug was pretty slow. Until recently, a guy told me that Bob at BBT (Belgium) had a few brandnew Mexican VW pans collecting dust. That got me excited as I wanted to start off with a new pan as a spare part vs. keeping the pan the car comes on because the "original teil" comes without the horrifying Mexican PVC undercoating, and this was only 20 minutes from where I live. I called Bob, but since I got most of my cash stuck in precious German metal I had to be creative, I suggested a trade that included a set of NOS 912E heads and a NOS genuine VW Thing BN4 Eberspächer gas heater. Long story short(er), I got a brandnew 2004 VW pan in my living room and it keeps me awake at night. I dusted it off and made a few temporary brackets that allow me to have it stand on its side strapped to a pole that I conveniently happen to have sitting in the middle of the living room, it's too thick for any form of pole dancing anyway (besides that.. any girl that would need a pole that thick is out of the erh.. "spectrum" is the word I guess, but I digress..). It spent a night under the car port in freezing temperatures and that kept me awake even more.

Pictures! Let me try this..

January 24th 2010, 21:53

January 24th 2010, 21:58
We're in business, that picture is huge though. I had to take it with my phone as my camera was dead, I rarely use it.

Here is the pan, unaltered, Genuine VW. I'll go ahead and post a few more:

(need to get in there with a Swiffer (tm) ) Note absence of heater cable guide tubes.
Odd fuel pump bracket, probably will get rid of it

January 24th 2010, 22:02
I hope they are large enough (how can I influence the size btw?)

So as I started to unwrap a few parts I noticed something odd. It makes me want to measure the pan to see if its according to spec. I don't expect huge deviations, but have a look at this:


January 24th 2010, 22:13
Those pix are still very big. But, from what I see you are asking about the gap from the tunnel to the torsion housing. If you can see into the tunnel through that hole...thats not good! The original German pans have sheet metal wrapped around the torsion housing closing this gap.

Oh, for changing picture size if you don't have software on your computer that does it you can start an account on a photo hosting site, and they have tools to change file size. ;)

January 24th 2010, 22:15
One more thing...Welcome to the GL forums we look forward to more pix and progress, and to help answer questions. :D

January 24th 2010, 22:22
That gap is not supposed to be there, or perhaps it should have been drenched in that seam sealer that's "seamingly" for free in Mexico. No offense to Mexican people here, you know what I mean.

To illustrate a bit further, the brake system is complete upto the last genuine Porsche nut and bolt, 993 RS calipers, discs, electro-hydraulic brake force amplifier and pump (otherwise it really makes no sense to fit these brakes), 924S rear hubs (used), 968 Clubsport front hubs, adaptors for the front calipers from Alex Niederfahrenhorst (-almost- used) and brake lines of mostly a 968 Clubsport. Complete including the hand brake shoes and all hardware etc. The amplifier on the RS amplifies just a tad less than on "regular" 993s and the rear calipers have slightly smaller pistons than the 993 Turbo, freely translated: better suited to a Bug.

Out back I have the 924S/944/968 alloy arms without holes for the ABS sensors, also used, I'm trying to live with that. I have urethane bushings from Topline but I'd rather have the genuine VW rubber bushings, still on my list. These are on 25.5mm 968 Clubsport torsion bars, along with the (genuine Porsche) yellow Koni's with the 968 CS helper springs. I think the springs will not clear the body, so I may have to resort to 944 Turbo Koni's without the springs. Matching Opel Yellow Koni's for the front. I have a Käfer Cup brace that is very nicely (German) made out of aluminium, Tafel brackets for it are still on my list.

For the front I was hoping to use the beam that comes with the car, but since I have no idea as to when I'll actually be able to go get one I am looking for a genuine VW beam with all the surroundings, CSP sells an adjustable beam based on a new VW unit (vs. a sloppy Puma beam) that sounds like it has my name on it, I can't use dropped spindles with the RS calipers .. I think. Any experience with the Sway-A-Way torsion leaf sets out there?

January 24th 2010, 22:22
Oops, skip that part about welcome to the forums...I just looked at the join date 2003. :o

January 24th 2010, 22:30
Seam sealer could solve the gap issue.

I can't believe you have "used parts" parts going on this project :eek: :lmao:

Are asking about sway away torsion bars? I dont think they make leaves for the front beam.

January 24th 2010, 22:40
I've been busy for a while :) ..

The gap really surprised me too... hence I want to verify and correct (if needed) the dimensions of the pan close to where they are supposed to be.

The engine is out of new parts as well, and pretty complete, genuine nos 914 case, NOS Porsche (comes in a VW box, I know, but I like to brag, I mean SHARE!) 66mm crank (short stroke, large journal=sturdy crank), Carrillo 5" rods, 964 Turbo 3.6 P&Cs, Ducati 996 Desmoquattro heads (used unfortunately), 993 oil cooler w. fan, 964 filterbracket, 930 oil thermostat, 930 generator/fan assembly, but Sharpbuilt (or maybe Riechert) shrouding still missing.

January 24th 2010, 22:41
Torsion leaves by Sway-A-Way (http://www.swayaway.com/vwleafsprings.php)

January 24th 2010, 22:46
OK. I never looked at the sway away site before. I have HD ones from CB Performance, but the stock ones would be fine with Koni's.

You are gonna have one crazy engine!

January 24th 2010, 22:48
The gap may become a plus depending on transmission, I'm lost in that regard. Porsche 901/902/911/914 seems ok, but a lot of work for little gain, closer gear ratios, yes. The goal is high to extreme reliability, I like building, but once built I wash and detail it, do regular maintenance, but no more wrenching.

Transmission, that Berg Bus 5 seems very attractive .. much stronger than a 901/911 .. but I wonder how it compares to a 915.

G50 is an option, I have used 964 C2 boxes that could be converted to a short G50 by using the nose cone of the short G50, shortening like Wally did. 930, but my motorcycle heads are not going to produce huge amounts of torque (although we can bring the 8000 rpm torque peak down a lot).

January 24th 2010, 22:49
Thanks for the tips on the pics, that was easy, I didn't see how to do it but hope that it worked..

January 24th 2010, 22:58
993 RS amplifier and master cylinder

January 24th 2010, 22:59
Cool deal. I have a 915, but have not tried it out yet (still have lots to do) I have heard the Berg 5 welds an extension onto the main shaft for the 5th gear. I don't like the sound of that personaly.

January 24th 2010, 23:00
911 torsion covers, 968 spring plates on 968 CS torsion bar

January 24th 2010, 23:00
993 RS amplifier and master cylinder

Much better size!;)

January 24th 2010, 23:04
Hmm.. I'm with you on that, but what it really has going for it, is that it FITS .. I (will) have a body in original paint that I don't want to ding up .. I'd modify the pan in a heartbeat, got a new G50 shifter set up .. but somewhat reluctant to graft it into the new pan .. that Bus box doesn't sound so bad .. I'm kinda like trying to find down sides to it.. to justify a 915.. the G50 .. I don't know ..

January 24th 2010, 23:12
The berg 5 and berg bus conversions sometimes have clearence issues with the body (area where the rear seat belts mount to the body in the center) not much, but you would have to "hammer" some. ;)

January 24th 2010, 23:16
For the rest, being a parts guy and all, I keep track of any/all mods and am creating a parts book that includes all deviations from the stock 2004 Bug, similar to what Porsche Motorsport does. That makes this one repeatable .. I think/hope .. :)

I have a lead on (used, sigh..) 46 IDAs (forty six, mother of all IDAs) off of a 904. I'll have to get creative again .. on the Duc heads that would sacrifice power, but would gain torque/drivabillity. Interesting detail, there are programs for the Ducati injection system that allow tweaking of the engine management system.. since I am using the heads .. it would be relatively easy to go the Ducati way on this .. with a wasted spark and a similar injector arrangement .. But lately I got a thing for carbs again .. why not? By the time I'll drive this thing out of my living room it'll be old fashioned again .. my neighbours driving a Mk 7 electric Prius ..

January 24th 2010, 23:24
The berg 5 and berg bus conversions sometimes have clearence issues with the body (area where the rear seat belts mount to the body in the center) not much, but you would have to "hammer" some. ;)

Hmm .. I can do that without hurting it too much .. I'll make it up to her :)

January 24th 2010, 23:26
With all the "new" going into this project I would go EFI. The "Ducati way" sounds very good.

Nice chatting with you... I gotta get some sleep (although its early morning for you)

January 24th 2010, 23:41
Take care, nice talking to you!

I'm all hot n bothered about a *censored* car now .. :)

January 25th 2010, 00:24

7.5x18" ET50 993 Turbo hollow spoke all round (I know, not hip, but they are NEW and genuine hollow spoke, why wouldn't I use them?)

Pirelli P-Zero Corsa in 225/40-18

February 10th 2010, 02:36
let's see those heads!

how you plan on making them work??

February 10th 2010, 09:55
Pictures of a bare head:


Not my pictures, but they will help to illustrate.

It begins with the holes that go over the headstuds, the spacing is -almost- identical to stock Type 4, however, they are like tubes incoporated in the casting, and there is very little room to move them. If they break through to a coolant pocket there would be leakage issues. The tensioners are mounted on the head itself, so there is no need to fabricate custom brackets/plates for them, can use the stock parts, along with all the Ducati internals, covers, flanges etc.

For our engines we need to marry two heads per side. There are large roller bearings in the large holes to support the camshafts, here I will need to select the correct camshafts for each side, determine timing offset, and make a keyed or splined collar where the camshafts join. There is plenty of room here, and no one says I need to use stock Ducati bearings.

The heads will need to be decked a few mm between them so the combustion chambers will be centered over the cilinders, there is very little room to do this, I may have to leave them a little off center.

These heads are designed to work with the 66mm stroke that I am using, the Duc has the same stroke. Torque is a problem, the Duc reaches maximum torque at 8000 Rpm, obviously, this needs to come down by a lot, I want to accomplish this by keeping the exhaust runners to the merge-point as short as possible, and use smaller throttle valves than the Duc uses. Camshafts of a smaller Duc engine with the same head casting may help as well.

The coolant openings at the headgasket surface will be welded shut on a vibrating welding table. Then they need a spigot to locate them on the cilinders.

Ducati's have no redline. Motorcycle engines have very light rotating parts, it is hard to compare, but this set up would pull easily to or over 10K rpm. I will need to establish whether I would have to maintain a redline for this engine. The thing is that motorcycles use very small big end diameters to keep the bearing speeds down. I am using a whopping 55mm big end, so far I haven't found any data that will help determine how fast the bottom end can actually/safely turn without cavitation of the oil film in the bearings.

Desmo Animation (http://www.ducatidesmo.com/images/ducatidesmovalves.swf)

It's a lot less work when compared to fitting 911 heads where the camhousings need to be shortened and custom camshafts need to be fabricated. The 911 heads then still have valve springs.

Originally I was looking for aircooled heads ofcourse, but they are not easy to fit, two valve and hard to cool properly. I justify the air/watercooled combination by thinking of the 959 and 962 engines that used this combination. I will underdrive the cooling fan, I have the large cooling fan normally used on the '89 Turbo, but will probably go to an earlier smaller fan. I've actually tried to find the 959 parts (knowing that will be close to impossible, and the new parts are still available from Porsche but would set me back close to 4000 Euro, not counting the alternator), the 959 uses a unique really small cooling fan. Still, I've found the craziest parts in the craziest ways, so if anyone has a lead to 959 parts pls. let me know.

To cool the heads I want to use as few parts as possible, thought of thermo-siphon circulation by mounting radiators higher than the heads, perhaps a mechanically driven waterpump in the fanhousing against the alternator, or driven off of one of the camshafts on the transmission side.

Motorcycle radiators are often curved, perhaps I can find something that would fit in the VW rear fenders. I'm completely new to water cooling, I still have to do my homework on this.

February 10th 2010, 14:06
Cool deal. I have a 915, but have not tried it out yet (still have lots to do) I have heard the Berg 5 welds an extension onto the main shaft for the 5th gear. I don't like the sound of that personaly.A solid main shaft is also availible too.

February 10th 2010, 15:37
A solid main shaft is also availible too.

Thanks Zack!

February 10th 2010, 16:53
Test fitted the 968 CS rear shocks and springs. They will clear the body by far, glad I'll be able to use them, they are too nice not to. Porsche uses these with the 25.5mm torsion bars, so will I.


Parts List. Please note that the top bolts are just a few mm too short to be used with the cup brace bushings in my case. I will either shorten the bushings somewhat or use longer bolts. The lower bolts are for use with Porsche alloy trailing arms.

Steve C
February 10th 2010, 17:35

Very nice work, 46 IDAs bring back painful memories, I had some fitted to a 2.1 WBX in my old 1302. I sold them cheap to friend many years ago when I went EFI, I still get offers to buy them on the internet.



February 10th 2010, 18:45

Very nice work, 46 IDAs bring back painful memories, I had some fitted to a 2.1 WBX in my old 1302. I sold them cheap to friend many years ago when I went EFI, I still get offers to buy them on the internet.



Ohh no! ... Thanks for the picture. They must have turned up in an unconventional way, or you might have known where they were used on originally.. or maybe you did and just let them go too quickly.

Like the pan I have now, traded against NOS 912E heads (among other things) I couldn't sell 'em for the life of me.. but they are no longer available .. and cost me one Mexican VW pan each a few years back ... but even that is not the same a set of 46 IDA's.

I know a retired Porsche mechanic who has more than one set somewhere in his bed room, he does want to sell them, but between the lines I can tell he wants thousands for them ..

Steve C
February 10th 2010, 20:19

I worked at performance VW shop in the 70s & 80s and we were offered the 46 IDAs at very good price by the Webber importer, I think about $200 AU each, we felt that the 46 was better street carb than the 48 for VWs.

When I sold them it was before I was really into the net and I was looking after a friend, I got $1000 AU for the pair which I thought was fair, it almost paid for my ECU.


February 10th 2010, 20:51
This is going to be fun to watch!!! Document everything with pics then just make sure you show us too!!! Thanks