What do you think of my set up

[vwnewb88]

What's up guys, first post here on GL. I've been working on my 71 super now for a couple months with the hopes of it being a fun canyon carver, and looking at doing a few track days.

So here is my set up:

Front End:
I have EMPI adjustable from struts with gas inserts
Complete from end rebuild from topline, all new urethane bushing
New steering box
Strut tower brace
front disc brakes
battery moved up to there the spare tire was
Lowered aprox 3 in.
BFG 205-55-15 G-Force Sports

Rear End:
Lowered aprox 2.5 inches
New urethane torsion bar bushing inner and outer
KYB gas adjust shocks
BFG 205-55-15 G-Force Sports
New engine and transmission mounts Rhino mounts from CB(Urethane)
Waiting for the rear disc to come in the mail

Other:
4 point roll bar (with 5 point harnesses) tied into the frame horns

Power Plant: I'm waiting for the Engine to be finished
But it's a DRD built 2276 putting out about 160 hp and similar torque specs

Transmission:
Rhino Pro-street transmission with stock gear ratio

When i get the engine in I'm going to have the rear aligned about .5-1 toed in and the front about .5 toed out


Sorry for the long post! But im going to make my first one count haha

Thanks in advance

[chug_A_bug]

first off welcome...
and Seems like a Sweet build you have going,
some pics would be nice ;) and what kinda things are you doing with the
body? what disc brake set upare you using? seats?? and carbon fiber :D
and the best for last what WHEELS
thanks
Chris.

[vwnewb88]

Thanks, umm for now the body is stock cause its pretty straight... Except for by the rear window, gutters were clogged and rusted out by the rear window so I may fraft in an oval section, other
then that the only thing I could see my self doing is the back three windows in lexan, but that's only if something happened to one of those three windows. The seats are stock, I found a set of bride sets for 450, but waiting for my tax return... But I'll prob have stock seats for a while. I'm using cb performance disc brakes and empi 8 spoke wheels. I would like some basket weave style wheels but they're all really exspensive so yeah any more input would be great!

[NO_H2O]

Welcome to the GL forums. I have a 72 Super and have done some work to it. Front and rear sway bars are in order for a canyon carver. I played with alignment on mine and ended up with 0 toe in the rear and 3/8" toe in up front and 3/4 deg. neg. camber on the front. It seems to work well for me.

[Humble]

You got a good build so far but we need pics! :D

I would suggest a bigger front sway bar and a rear bar if you're doing mostly street driving. You might also want some stiffer springs/torsion bars too. What tracks are you hitting up? Here's the settings on my daily/canyon carver:

Front:
-1.5* camber
1* caster
0* toe

Rear:
-1* camber
0* toe

[vwnewb88]

yeah, so i deff cant figure out how to post a pic, kinda embarrassing... but im not big on computer, so i got pics if some one has the knowledge :o

[evilC]

Hi and welcome! Its good to see a new build up coming through. A couple of comments that I have:

Front end:

Those Empi adjustable struts are DREADFUL. They rely on a thin wire retaining collar that IMO won't last long with potentially lethal results. Where the grooves are cut for the wire seat they reduce the wall thickness of the struts by about 50%. These struts are not an engineered solution and I sent mine back after seeing the items in the flesh. If you are after the adjustability then a threaded collar with 2 1/4" springs is the only way to go. Iif you do lower then you will need to flip the trackrod over as it will hit the AR bar at -2" that will also have to be flipped to give a better angle of operation.
Don't bother moving the battery up front because at present it's sited on the neutral axis of the chassis so it has little effect on the handling traits in that position. Moving it up front adds little to the axle load but increases the polar moment of inertia measurably that may dull the chassis reactions. Also there is the penalty of running a starter cable the length of the cabin.
You may not be able to achieve 3" lowering with adjustable struts as the track rods will cause allsorts of interference problems. 2"-2 1/2" is the normal max lowering that will be beneficial but at that the chassis may hit on some of the bumpier sections.
Have you considered what springs/dampers you require?
Apart from that the front end will be well nailed.

Rear Suspension
All that looks fine but I assume that you will be running standard TBs? If so the standard 22.5mm TBs will be a bit soft for a quick/fine handling car. They ideally need uprating to 23.5mm for fast road/occasional track use or 25.5mm for a more competitive car. You can instead add coilovers in lieu of using the uprated TBs but the top mount of the coilover needs triangulating with something like a 5 point kafer cup brace.

What's the brake spec? I would be very cautious of some of the aftermarket rear disc conversions as they don't balance well with what's available for the front.

I assume that by 4 point rear bar you mean a rear hoop only with two rear struts. It would be well worth looking at a full cage as this provides extra torsional rigidity to the shell.

Keep us all posted on progress

Clive

[vwnewb88]

I looked into doing coil over conversion and in the states there are really no good, in my opinion, rear coil set ups. Maybe there are actually just non that compare to those available in the UK and such.

The brakes are from CB performance, the only problem is like i said im waiting for the motor, so sitting in the garage the brakes feel great just haven't really tested them

And yes by 4 point i mean rear hoop and two rear struts i considered going to a full cage but it's going to be my daily driver (i commute about 7 miles a day so very limited driving aside from weekends) so i did not want to hassle of dealing with a full cage on a daily bases.

And the struts i got in trade before i ever planned on doing with my anything with my bug, i traded them for an old rusty chevy block, but ideally i want to go to the top line maxx strut extreme

What brand of traction bar do you recommend, i was looking into them, but i was having trouble figuring out which ones to get size/brand wise

Sorry again for the long post but EvilC your post was very helpful.

[evilC]

I thought the QA1 rear coil overs were good quality? The kersher front coil over struts are some of the best and besides we are a global market now and access to European or American bits is easy peasy.

If they are the CB rear disc conversion they use a Golf rear caliper I think, that means that the single piston size is smaller than anything you will get for the front so the brakes will have a severe front bias. This issue comes up time after time. Crnch some numbers on the caliper/master cylinder ratios and you will see what I mean.

You could install a 6 point cage with links to the A & B pillars that will stiffen the chassis considerably. The 6 point cage has no appreciable effect IMO on the access to the vehicle unless the front legs are too far back. Wally's cage is a brilliant example of what can be done with an off the shelf unit. A door bar can be had as a removeable item. Besides the two rear struts will be difficult to transport passengers especially as you intend to connect them to the frame horns.

The Empi struts are such poor quality pieces of kit that I would have a pang of conscious if I traded them on flea-Bay. Just because you feel you might have a good deal doesn't mean you have to use them. IMO a true Germanlooker is about the engineering skill. Remember " God is in the details".

TB means 'torsion bar'. The 23.5mm bar is a standard Porsche 944/924S bar and the 25.5mm one is the 944 M030 spec. The 23.5mm bar should be readily available from breakers whereas the 25.5mm bar is a little rarer. Some people like the look of coilovers on the rear so that may be a viable alternative to uprating the rear suspension.

Clive

[vwnewb88]

I know what TB means lol. But as far as the roll bar, im not putting the back seat back in so im not worried about passengers, and i know we are a global market now, but i was looking at buying the lowering spring plates from Red9design.com and the shipping was more then the product, and those are fairly small compared to the rest of the stuff i need/want.

But as far as the breaks go since i will only be pushing about 160hp would you recommend stay with the drum in the back?

[oasis]

... since i will only be pushing about 160hp would you recommend stay with the drum in the back?

My '71 was under 160hp (although I never got a chance to actually dyno it). I went with disk rears because I knew I would have moments when I wouldn't just cruise about but actually engage in some spirited driving.

Now having said that, I'm not sure I needed the rear disks. Even if my next car is more robust, I'm not sure I will need rear disks. My driving patterns will probably remain the same (although more robust hp may lead to more robust driving when I'm in the mood).

I chose disks because I could afford it at the time (a big consideration) and I felt better about it since disks are better.

In the end, the front brakes are most important as they do 70% of the braking and how stout your set-up is going to be is more dependent on your driving than your hp.

Others may disagree, my opinion only.

[vwnewb88]

Thats my dilemma I have the money, but deff could use it else where, and I know you cant have TO much stopping power, my thing is when does it become excessive?

[oasis]

Excessive is a value judgment. I never found having rear disc brakes excessive. I had TopLine front and rear brakes. If my next project parallels my first, I will probably upgrade the front brakes further and do something very similar for the rears.

One way to straddle the decision is go with Type 3 rear drums. I have no experience whatsoever with the set-up, but the consensus I have heard is the Type 3 drums are an upgrade over stock Type 1 drums.

[vwnewb88]

I thoguht I read that type 3 dreams are the same diameter... I don't no if its actually and upgrade on the super... But I very well could br wrong I'm leaning towards disc just cause they're self adjusting more consistant feel

[evilC]

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with the rear drums:
+ve
1) Low/moderate speed braking they are more efficient than discs
2) Good hand brake(parking/emergency brake) function.
3) Unaffected by rain or spray

-ve
1) Retain heat with repeated applications that accumulates and ultimately causes fade.
2) Retain water when driving through shallow streams/fords.
3) Requires periodic adjustment

For normal day to day driving a drum braked rear is a good option. However, for quick driving where repeated application will ultimately see the brades overheat and fade the disc brakes are the preferred route. Disc brakes are not so good as hand/parking/emergency brake nor as good with slow speed work. The 160bhp you envisage will probably not tax the day to day use but anything competitive will be close to the limit even with competition linings - they bring their own concerns as well. The type 3 drums are a standard upgrade on the bug and would offer a noticeable improvement.

A bug requires around a 50/50 brake balance set up since the front end has only 35-40% of the static weight, that means that the caliper sizes should be equal front/rear with the standard master cylinder.

Using a Porsche set up front and rear is near to an ideal solution since you can tailor the caliper sizes to match the balance you are looking for, big powerful brakes are standard and the handbrake is a drum that is efficient. If you are intent on a fine handling/braking super then substitute a 944 front/rear suspension and brakes.

Clive

[vwnewb88]

Update*

I've decided to keep the drums rear for now until i see how it preforms, so i got all new everything for the rear drums

Im going to order new torsion bars now, I dont know if i should get 26mm bars or 27, any input would be great

And makin some changes to the motor so it'll be puttin out about 185hp on the dyno

[evilC]

Both the 26 and 27mm TBs will be too stiff IMO unless this is track use only. Stick to 23.5mm upgrade and invest in some good dampers. If you need the rear end stiff add some coilsprings to the dampers - that is by far the easiest way to uprate it and you might find that 23.5mm TBs are all you need.

[vwnewb88]

thanks for the input

[vwnewb88]

what do you think about going to a 24 or 24.5mm bar? This is going to be my "daily driver" but when i am in the mood to drive to work and school its only 4 miles so this is a fun weekend warrior more than anything else.

[evilC]

hi,
A 24 or 24.5mm bar (if they are available) would be between 'fast road' and 'track' designations and I still wonder whether you might find them annoyingly too stiff on the road (depends on the state of the roads of course). Have you thought about adding a coilover damper to the standard rear suspension with a long helper spring? That would on a long setting just add the helper spring poundage to the standard TB rate improving the road springing and then winding the platform up to bring in the main spring for those more competitive moments. Careful selection of the set point ride height on the TBs ought to prevent the ride height going up too much when the platform is wound up. Alternatively, a progressive spring would do the same but possibly at greater cost.
The sort of spring poundage would probably not require a kafer cup brace and I would guess the standard bolt arrangements would be adequate although you might consider a brace to beef up the horns.

clive

[vwnewb88]

I've thought about converting to rear coil over and I would love to, but if I do it I want to go all the way... And the parts I want, well, I just cant afford right now. So I will have to stick with the torsion bars. I do think you have talked me out of going up to a stiffer torsion bar, if I find the 23.5's are not working for me I can always upgrade later, but it think with my current set up now I will be more then happy with the car.

And i found out that i got accepted the university of Barcelona, as an exchange student for a semester, so by the time i get this thing done I wont even be able to drive it!

[evilC]

I have 23.5mm TBs that I have installed in our 1303, only because I bought a complete 924S (944N/A) undercarriage. it was always my intent to upgrade to lightly sprung coilovers + TBs as a cheap and effective way of increasing the wheel rate that is if I now need it with the increase in TB diameter that has added an additional stage in the process. I am not a fan of pure (only) coilover on the rear of a road car as the chassis needs beefing up to accept the loads imposed as well as NVH off the rear suspension. Invariably, the pure coilover route also loses the heat exchangers because of the necessity to install a ful 5 bar kafer cup brace, a solution to which I have not found yet. The loss of heat in our climate is a chilling thought!
If you are going to upgrade the rear suspension I still think that keeping the standard TBs and supplementing them with coilovers is a practical, adaptable and cheap solution. If you find that your first coilover spring selection is not suitable you can cheaply change the spring. Purchasing 23.5mm TBs new will not be cheap and 944 parts in the States appear to be less available than they are here.
Congratulations on your student placement! Barcelona is a great cultural city.

Clive

[judgie]

i run the stock n/a 944 rear bars in my race car matched with 130lb springs in the front. front end feels a lot stiffer than the rear but helps a lot with traction out of tight corners, also makes it three wheel :)
its about as hard as i would want on road car.

[vwnewb88]

Looks like i am going to run it as is for a while.... and maybe look for 944 parts while im on that side of the pond and ship them back.. then maybe add coil overs when i get back