A call for camber plates

[Humble]

Okay, here's the deal. I'm getting tired of not finding a good solution for adjustable camber plates in North America. If somebody has some I missed, point them out and I'll add them to the ultimate suspension thread. Why this is so important is that typically lowered supers use modified rabbit struts that had the top of the strut shaft machined to provide extra room for the super beetle strut bearing. This of course means that of the shelf or adjustable struts can't be simply swapped in. What I'm after is a bolt on part that will accept rabbit struts with out modification, so "off the shelf" struts can be used. If I can find a set of plates for less than $250 its a bonus.

Now for anyone with cad design skills I have a special request. If you can design a plate that adds at least 1* caster and has 2* or more of camber adjustment please get me the plans! I have access to a low/high volume manufacturing facility with fully automated machining/assembly capabilities as well as full anodizing in just about any alloy available. I could do as few as 10 sets or 100,000. If there's enough interest I may bankroll the first batch, so we wouldn't have to wait for a group buy.

[owdlvr]

Now for anyone with cad design skills I have a special request.

Can you provide me with an example from which I can do some R&D?

...Review and duplicate, with your requested changes added in.

-Dave

[Humble]

I could only provide the super beetle strut bearing itself. If I had a drawing I could probably modify it as needed. The problem for me is I don't have the time to work up a drawing from scratch. :( The goal is to get a set of camber plates for less than $150 if possible and I want to sell them for the manufacturing price.

[owdlvr]

Alright, well like you I don't have endless time...but I'm interested to help with the project. Depending on the time frame we're talking, a collaboration towards the effort could get something done. If we're looking at a schedule of a couple of months, I've got the time to play around. The bigger challenge is that I don't own a super, and there is typically a lot more going on with VAG strut mount bushings then you might think. I worked on replacement strut mount bushings for B3 Audi's (classic failure part, OE versions last weeks). The strut shaft works on two axis of rotation, not one. Trying to solve the collapse problem resulted in binding with the rotation. Here's the prototype of the B3 unit:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3568/3366112370_05606e46d9_o.jpg

To do this properly would require one of two options:

a) rabbit strut, super strut, rabbit upper mount & super upper mount (so all measurements could be taken, etc) and then ideally a car to view/measure.

or

b) A current adjustable upper camber plate that could be measured and have your custom requests added to it.

-Dave

[Humble]

I can take care of a couple measurements, most likely the rabbit/super struts and possibly the strut bearings as well. Another way about this if I can provide you with a drawing (via paper/pdf) could you turn it into a cad drawing? Time wise I would like to get this moving fairly quickly and if possible get the first proto by the end of May.

I fully expect at least one or two proto runs before there's a finished product and I have the means to get accurate alignment measurements for little or no cost.

[owdlvr]

Another way about this if I can provide you with a drawing (via paper/pdf) could you turn it into a cad drawing?

Yup.

-Dave

[randyj]

I would be willing to commit to purchasing a set.

Randy

[Bug@5speed(US)]

Humble,

Funny you mention this topic.. I have not had time yet since I have been working on the rear of the car as we speak in between life,work and kids..

I spoke a few months ago, with (Mark) from ground control.. regarding this.. I have not had a chance to stencil/draw and measure.. but if you have time you may want to run with it..

Here is what he said. Please send us a picture and a drawing of the super beetle top mount. The 3 and 5 bolt are actual;ly pretty large, and we have smaller camber caster plates that might be a better fit.

Their 3 and 5 bolt were the universal model..

Might be worth a try, and with minimal effort.
VR
Alex
PS I will follow this thread and see if I can help..

[evilC]

Hi Humble,

When I did the front of our 1303 super I used 944 struts and top mounts and all that was required was to drill an extra hole for the 4 bolt arrangement so in principle surely the Golf strut could work in the same vein? If so, then wouldn't the Golf camber plates also work?

I am tackling the adjustability of the front suspension in a different way relying on the 944/super standard camber adjustment methods on the axle and inner TCA bush and then using a compression strut to vary the caster. Whilst that should be a two unit operation instead of the single top mount adjustability it seems to me that adjusting either on my set up has little effect on the other whereas top mount adjustability can affect both.

Clive

[Bug@5speed(US)]

Clive, thanks for the pics..

Got me very interested in this option.. and as a result took some pics of my own to share..

Essentially there seems to be a lot of overlap and similarities between the 944 topmount and 1303 topmount.

Here are some pics of the 944 Strut topmount (can't remember the year or model, but believe they are NA model)

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j108/bugat5speed_US/DSC05499.jpg~original

Here is the topline strut bar plate placed on the 944 to see the similarities.. The top bolts line up perfectly with the topline plate

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j108/bugat5speed_US/DSC05501.jpg~original
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j108/bugat5speed_US/DSC05502.jpg~original

Here is the beetle with the topline plate
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j108/bugat5speed_US/DSC05503.jpg~original

This is the 1303 plate sitting on top of the 944
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j108/bugat5speed_US/DSC05504.jpg~original

Some side/angle shots to see the similarities
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j108/bugat5speed_US/DSC05505.jpg~original
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j108/bugat5speed_US/DSC05506.jpg~original
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j108/bugat5speed_US/DSC05507.jpg~original

Where I can see an issue, but looks like Clive has confirmed fitment, is the bottom section of the 944 topmount as its wider and does not come to a point. I won't have time to disassemble these struts till end of may and maybe check on the car to see how much space exists..

@Clive- Was there a lot of space left, when you installed from underneath? Curious as aftermarket 944 camberplates maybe larger.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j108/bugat5speed_US/DSC05512.jpg~original

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j108/bugat5speed_US/DSC05510.jpg~original

NLT friday, I will follow up with the Ground Control Rep, and send him some pencil drawings/tracings of the beetle topmount, so that he can check against his inventory to see if something other than the 944 will fit the bill.. But drilling two holes and leveraging the 944 stuff, seems like a no-brainer.. added support.
I was initially concerned if the 944 units would be offset, in some fashion when compared to the beetle units, but this does not seem to be the case. I was concerned about added camber/caster in the wrong directions. The other issue that I need to check is that the two new holes are not to close to where the strut pops through.. as in that there is enough metal to have good structural integrity. .

These are the ones I saw on the ground control site, but there are plenty of other vendors.. These were nice as they had an integrated top spring perch.. Other options are 944 units that are topmounted, as in they get bolted to the top of the chassis, as opposed to the bottom but those are big dollar items.

http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/image.php?image=http://www.ground-control-store.com/images/fullsize/CCP944_fs.jpg&name=Camber%2FCaster+Plate%2C+944%2F924+%28Pair%29
Only problem, is that the 944 run horizontal in those cars, and when placed on the bug go vertically, therefore making them caster plates :)

Welcome any thoughts? as I too want to kick ideas around and keep this thread going..
VR
ALex

[evilC]

Hi Alex,
A couple of comments:
The 944 top mount is a tight fit in the 1303 seat.
The extra stud on the front/outer is preciously close to the fold on the inner wing. To bolt mine up that include a 5mm strut bar plate I have to jact the strut up so that there is clearance for the nyloc nut, wind the nut on and then finish jacking the strut up. There is not enough clearance between the stud top and the inner wing to get the nut on when the mount is fully engaged.
The camber plates that ground control show look like thick (8mm?) alloy plates that IMO would fail on two accounts:
1) Their thickness + and/or the strut brace plate would be too deep to allow that front outer bolt through that will allowthe nut to be placed.
2) The whole thing relys on M8 bolts clamping that top plate in situ by friction. I can see that it could move in use particularly on rough roads. It looks like a unit for racing only as it will need constant supervision and adjustment.
3) It is generally accepted that the 1303 super requires a strut brace to stiffen the front to give adequate/better control. By putting in an adjustable top plate based on sliding the top of the strut in two directions you will have to slot or enlarge the strut brace fixing holes or dispense with it altogether (an adjustable strut brace is only adjustable in one direction). By allowing more movement for the strut brace you will have negated a primary reason for having it in the first place - to solidly secure the two top mounts of the strut.
On balance since you are probably unlikely to want to adjust the front suspension frequently and since adjusting the toe in can only be accomplished under the front it seems to me that having all the adjustability under the car would be more desireable especially since it leaves the stiffness of the body uncompromised

Clive

[vdubzack]

Maybe Chris at Tangerine racing would just sell his plates only? Should not be too much to modify to fit.

[Obiwan]

Do not know if it is what you really looking for but have a look to what a French guu do (Flat4parts online shop) : Camber plates (http://www.flat4parts.com/f4p-kit-de-reglage-de-pince-chasse-24-fr.html)

[vdubzack]

Do not know if it is what you really looking for but have a look to what a French guu do (Flat4parts online shop) : Camber plates (http://www.flat4parts.com/f4p-kit-de-reglage-de-pince-chasse-24-fr.html)

Looks Great! But looking for a US Supplier. But at the rate the dollar is rising, soon it wont make a difference.

[Obiwan]

Looks Great! But looking for a US Supplier. But at the rate the dollar is rising, soon it wont make a difference.

I dont think there will be a pb to shipp to US. If the shop dont want, I can support it and organaize the shipping for one or severals pieces.
The $ is stronger evry day against the €, but It up to you to dedcide if it is a good deal or not. ;)

[Bug@5speed(US)]

Obiwan..

Saw those from the French company..

It looks like it has graduations for caster front to back, via the 4 bolts..

For camber its just elongated slots.. I would have preferred the other way around.. but thanks.. and something to keep in mind
Alex

[Humble]

I saw those plates from the french company before but shipping to the US kills the deal. I think it was around $400 for the plates shipped which is outrageous the the plates from Jeffery's in Japan weren't any cheaper.

What I'm after is a bolt in design that requires no modification to the body, and gives a good amount of camber and caster adjustability. Getting the price below $200 for a set would be nice too.

[Jadewombat]

Those black French mounts look like they're for a 944, like the camber mount goes opposite what a bug would need to set camber. Anyone have any experience with the Jeffrey's ones (blue)? Considering getting a set of these. Just need to know how much camber I could dial in (maximum)?

[Jadewombat]

Just saw this too, universal plates.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p5197.c0.m619&item=370361991809&viewitem=&category=6755#ht_2514wt_939

[Bug@5speed(US)]

Do a search on Rennlist or 944 forums. The mookee plates have had mixed reviews due to bearing quality.
While they are inexpensive I have some reservations about them.
But for the price not bad to try and experiment or use some of these pRts to make custom ones
VR
Alex

[riseabove]

Hi Guys!

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ggbklltTpIE/TOuuNPATNfI/AAAAAAAAADg/J6BMq5SaYh4/s640/002%20IMG_20101122_142724.jpg

I have had the same problem as all you guys , but chose a different path. me and my friend sat down and did som massive research about this and came to the conclution that there where no purposebuilt units for our beloved superbeetles. said and done we started up our cad tools to create this ourselves.

Our end product isn´t made out of cheap aluminum alloys from the far east, instead we chose to go local here in sweden, the worlds premium supplier of HIGH GRADE steel. to create our product. We are able to supply this product for you all, comes with all fastening hardware and may be slightly customized if you would like a bit more caster.

Our product is FEM-stability tested and fits the superbeetle perfect. Both pre 73 and later.

contact us via pm if you would be interested in buying high grade swedish craftmanship camberplates/topmounts.

Regards
Anders E / Dann W

[Steve C]

Hi

Nice work Anders

I don't have any camber issues, slotting the inner control arm location will fix that.

The biggest problem I have is getting correct caster after the car is lowered.

Steve

[onixbonilla]

Here a couple of photos of the ones I build my self with only hand tools.
I made a cardboard plate, transfer to the metal plate. Then with a $75 Sears bench drill I drilled a lot of side by side holes. Then smooth it with hand file tools. Finally weld some studs and little can paint.

[onixbonilla]

Hi

Nice work Anders

I don't have any camber issues, slotting the inner control arm location will fix that.

The biggest problem I have is getting correct caster after the car is lowered.

Steve

With my mix of 1302/1303,951 and Rabbit front suspension parts, my 1303 had a very positive caster. To correct it I hand build some plates that bolt at the front sway bar mounting points. I even incorporated some adjustment on it.:)

[F4P]

Those black French mounts look like they're for a 944, like the camber mount goes opposite what a bug would need to set camber. Anyone have any experience with the Jeffrey's ones (blue)? Considering getting a set of these. Just need to know how much camber I could dial in (maximum)?

the other side existing also...

http://www.flat4parts.com/files/produits/kit.jpg

here (http://www.flat4parts.com/f4p-kit-de-reglage-de-chasse-pince-26-en.html)

[flat]

I've been back-burnering a set for many years, and one thing that should be noted is that the strut tops are not perpendicular in the chassis, so by just slotting between the mounting screws you'll be off axis and adjusting camber and caster dependently, which can be annoying.

i.e. angle defined below is not 90 degrees:

http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx359/flat_fo/strut.jpg~original

Ideally what is needed is a camber and castor adjustment that is independent. One of these days I'll get around to designing/building it :)

Lanner

[SuperRSi]

Ah now I found this thread. So Lanner any movement on this idea?

[flat]

Yes! My biggest hurdle has been to design the mount to be rubber isolated. I've got that figured out so I'm making a set for my 1302. For now, I can make them either for camber OR caster, not both. Further development for both will be after the testing. I'll keep you guys posted in about 4 weeks

Lanner

[SuperRSi]

Hey Lanner! Is it four weeks yet?

[graham]

Okay, here's the deal. I'm getting tired of not finding a good solution for adjustable camber plates in North America. If somebody has some I missed, point them out and I'll add them to the ultimate suspension thread. Why this is so important is that typically lowered supers use modified rabbit struts that had the top of the strut shaft machined to provide extra room for the super beetle strut bearing. This of course means that of the shelf or adjustable struts can't be simply swapped in. What I'm after is a bolt on part that will accept rabbit struts with out modification, so "off the shelf" struts can be used. If I can find a set of plates for less than $250 its a bonus.

Now for anyone with cad design skills I have a special request. If you can design a plate that adds at least 1* caster and has 2* or more of camber adjustment please get me the plans! I have access to a low/high volume manufacturing facility with fully automated machining/assembly capabilities as well as full anodizing in just about any alloy available. I could do as few as 10 sets or 100,000. If there's enough interest I may bankroll the first batch, so we wouldn't have to wait for a group buy.

Hey Humble not sure if these will accept off the shelf Rabbit struts but, I thought I would post you the link anyway regards Graham http://www.k-mac.com/pages/newprods/vw/vw.htm

[flat]

Hey Lanner! Is it four weeks yet?

Mild progress. Working out the design features:

-fixed positive caster gain. Question is how much? I'd appreciate feedback. Walter? Steve C?
-I'll design for max camber adjustment. 2 bolt struts will have more since the hole in body is bigger. On early cars its up to your discretion to clearance body.
-looks that there will be very little change in ride height..+- 4mm
-can be removed/replaced without affecting setting
-easily adjusted from under hood
-will be non cushion mounted for now; good for the racers, a little harsher for daily drivers

Lanner

[Humble]

Lanner, I'm not sure if you have anyone lined up yet, but I have access to a large manufacturing/machining company through a couple of friends. They do everything from medical devices to paint ball guns and they are looking for more work. If you can get me a design and materials bill I can get an run estimate and materials/machining cost. That would leave only hardware left to be fitted for something like what riseabove has done.

[flat]

Humble, I do my own manufacturing (manual mill, lathe etc) and considering the tiny niche market I don't think I'd require external vendors.

Got the aurora spherical bearings on order so she's slowly coming together. I'm designing for seals under the spherical to keep road crap out.

Lanner

[Steve C]

Hi

I'm running non cushioned mounts, they are not as bad as I thought that they would be. I will try to find my specs on caster.

I had to fit these to correct an over wheel base issue that I had with my local authorities, I was 30 mm over wheel base which the local authorities got their knickers in a twist over.

I'm running a stock 02/03 sway bar with offset camber bushes. These fitted back to front with the camber tops removed the excess wheel base problem. After the car passed inspection I fitted the cambers bushes back to the normal.

Steve

[SuperRSi]

Lanner how long do you think before you can ship something? I am even open for a test set purchase.

[graham]

Doh sorry Lanner I've just read through this thread properly :o and realised your trying to put your own camber plates together.Apologies for posting a link to someone else's products,not trying to piss on ya strawberry patch.Good luck with getting them sorted :D

[SuperRSi]

Lanner? Anybody? Still looking...

[panic]

Hey I am also interested in this project, I'll be keeping my eye one it!

[SuperRSi]

OK let's look at a score card.
Lanner did not have anything after months so I decided to quit bugging him.
RiseAbove said just PM them and we could get some quality Swedish units. Never returned PMs...
K-Mac after several calls, emails etc said sure we can ship them for $480. Paypal us and we will ship them. So 6 weeks ago I Paypal'd them and have seen nothing. Now not even a return email on when or if they shipped.

Why does it have to be so hard to buy damn near anything that is Beetle related? If I didn't own my Super for 20+ years I would run from the VW world of slow vendors...

[Oval]

That is a shame, maybe one of us Aussies (Steve C or myself) should call K-Mac and chase your order

[Humble]

If I can get a design, I can get a batch done through a friend's manufacturing facility. I don't have the time or knowledge to design them myself but I can get small production runs completed.

[SuperRSi]

Further report. So in total fairness to K-Mac they did respond and it was in my Spam folder that I never look in. But now the problem is they shipped them TNT shipping (?) who lost them and now K-Mac says they are building me another set. Dear God let my next project car be something that I can buy every part from Summit...

[flat]

Finally!
http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy251/saugadubz/20131028_220142.jpg~original

Approx 2 degrees positive caster gain
Approx 1 degree camber adjust either way
Camber adjust properly aligned on chassis
Adjust from under the hood
Aurora spherical bearing
Sealed bearing underneath to keep out the elements

Details to follow

Lanner

[SuperRSi]

Here is a look at the KMacs. Looks like camber changes will come with caster changes. Will reserve judgment until I try to make them work. Cast center section, I nestled the two together to show the cuts. Captive bolts for squeeze factor. Thrust bearing held in with C clip. Funny the box says you can change your Caster/Camber in only 30 minutes. We shall see!

http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/GreatFX/KMacDual_zpsf93a1e76.jpeg~original (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/GreatFX/media/KMacDual_zpsf93a1e76.jpeg.html)

http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/GreatFX/KMacTop_zps80c94cdf.jpeg~original (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/GreatFX/media/KMacTop_zps80c94cdf.jpeg.html)

http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k636/GreatFX/KMacSide_zps0d8b77cf.jpeg~original (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/GreatFX/media/KMacSide_zps0d8b77cf.jpeg.html)

[Oval]

yeah it all seems loose now, but when it is all in the car, you can 'lever' the plate fore and aft and side to side for camber and caster adjustment

[SuperRSi]

So do the three funny shaped tab washers go above the shock tower and the rest below?

[Humble]

That's how I've seen them installed. It's also common to find 914 camber plates installed that way.

[Blizzard]

I got a set of camber plates for a mark 1 vw Golf from Silver Projects on Ebay. They are made from steel and can be easaly adapted to fit a superbeetle.

Original next to Silver Projects VW Golf camberplate
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p207/blizzard1974/_DSC3902_zps7269976c.jpg~original (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/blizzard1974/media/_DSC3902_zps7269976c.jpg.html)

Cut up to join the 2 together
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p207/blizzard1974/_DSC3901_zps3bb3758f.jpg~original (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/blizzard1974/media/_DSC3901_zps3bb3758f.jpg.html)

Finished adjustable camberplate and Original
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p207/blizzard1974/_DSC3908_zps2c7c1db3.jpg~original (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/blizzard1974/media/_DSC3908_zps2c7c1db3.jpg.html)

[Blizzard]

Fitted in the car. I still have to make some sort of seal to close of the camber plate.

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p207/blizzard1974/100_4562_zps20c7c235.jpg~original (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/blizzard1974/media/100_4562_zps20c7c235.jpg.html)

Before

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p207/blizzard1974/100_4563_zps748f8f4b.jpg~original (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/blizzard1974/media/100_4563_zps748f8f4b.jpg.html)

After

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p207/blizzard1974/100_4564_zpsffa8bc90.jpg~original (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/blizzard1974/media/100_4564_zpsffa8bc90.jpg.html)

[Bugscandrift]

Id love to know some more information on how you did that. How did you join the two together? Is the adjustable plate made from steel so that they can just be welded together? Did you use a hole saw to cut out the center of each? Love this idea!

[H2OSB]

So, I contacted the guys at Silver Project to see if they could just add camber plates for Super Beetles to their line of products based upon Blizzard's idea above. They're going to. I talked back and forth with one of the project team members to determine what was needed. In the end, I sent an early style upper strut mount to them in Poland and they received it today. I should know soon how it comes out. Stay Tuned.....

[Blizzard]

The diameter of the early Strut Bearing Mount, up to 1973 is smaller than the later Strut Bearing Mount for 74 to 79 Super Beetle. The hole in the body is also smaller. I have a '75 1303 so the hole is for the wider diameter Strut Bearing Mount.

The outside diameter of the Silver Projects Mark 1 golf camberplate is to big for the hole upto '73. So if you use the Silver projects camberplate based on the Mark 1 golf in a super upto '73 you have to make the hole in the body bigger to fit it.


> 1973

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p207/blizzard1974/strutbearingearlys_1_zpse299b0ff.jpg~original (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/blizzard1974/media/strutbearingearlys_1_zpse299b0ff.jpg.html)

1974 >

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p207/blizzard1974/strutbearinglates_zps38c47011.jpg~original (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/blizzard1974/media/strutbearinglates_zps38c47011.jpg.html)

[H2OSB]

I sent the early mount and told them what you just said. Hopefully, he fully understood.

[H2OSB]

The Silver Project guys came through. Here's is the new camber plates for 1303s

http://silverproject.eu/en/shop/suspension-vw/camber-plates-volkswagen-super-beetle-1974-79/

I'm must admit I'm a little confused. I SENT him an early upper strut bearing for the bolt spacing, and because the rubber/steel section is easier to remove from the early mounts (the later mounts are pressed from a single piece of metal). Perhaps its due to the fact they used the adjustable section from their Mk1 Golf mount and it fits into the hole on the later chassis cars (and according to Blizzard, above, does NOT fit through the hole on the early cars)(in fact, in one of the pictures, you can see the exact upper strut bearing I sent to him). Anyway, the price seems very reasonable to me. I will be buying a set asap.

[Humble]

I've got a set on the way and I'll test them on my 73. I'll give a review once I have them in hand.

[proudbugowner]

Hi all!

Glad to be a member of this forum!

Has anyone measured what is the inside diameter and the width of the top mount bearing and wants to share? I am a bit lazy to unmount the shock in order to measure it :o

I want to machine some new spherical bearing top mounts and would like to know this diameter and width in order to determine what spherical bearings to buy and design the top mounts according to them... Any input will be welcome!

Thanks in advance!

Mario