Possible project (standard Beetle)

[oasis]

Okay, another possibility has caught my eye. It is a standard Beetle. My experience and previous research has always centered around the Super (1302 and 1303). There is a standard that looks awfully good to me, however. It is an IRS platform.

My very basic question is: What can I do to enhance the handling of a standard?

My searching has me awash with differing ideas that tends to be more technical than what I am looking for up front. I am looking for basic answers. If it surpasses my intimidation level, I may consider the car and will seek detailed suggestions when appropriate.

(If this belongs in "Suspension," I am fine with it being moved. Since this is general and I may add to it as such, I placed it here.)

[joeyd63]

lowering the car will lower the center of gravity and reduce body roll

thats a quick way to improve the handling of any car.

you could just add droped spindles in the front and index the rear torsion bars.

how well do you want it to handle? is this a race car or just a toy?

[chug_A_bug]

just did my whole 74 std and bilsteins are KEY same with lowering and urethane bushings all around...
and I nice set of sticky tires will help ALOT, my bug is like it's on rails NOW!! :)

Chris

[Wally]

Remove the stock front suspension completely and substitute for a Red9-design (whats their name again) or Mendeola double wishbone front suspension package.

Done.

[volkdent]

Do a Mendeola, it includes sways and with the IRS on the rear you'd be in pretty good shape.

Jason

[oasis]

Some quick responses ...

Race car -- no. Toy -- well, I guess, but I would say serious toy. (I did look into the rules for rallying.)

My Super was a serious toy. That was great fun. I can be patient to have things done right rather than just on the quick.

Here in the mid-Atlantic, we have three months where fog, dew, frozen dew, sloppy rain and (of course) snow dominate the weather. I had nice tires on my Super and they were great nine months of the year. During the three bleak months, I found the tires that were closer to stock as being better. That is why I included "rally car" in my description on the other possible project thread. I would probably want to adjust my set-up depending on the season.

Wally and Jason -- sounds simple and effective. That's a combo I always like.

Thanks to all for the responses. There seems to be more standard candidates than Supers right now. We'll see what December brings.

[oasis]

... or Mendeola double wishbone front suspension package

I just looked at their S2-T1 chassis. :eek: My brain is now going at 8,000 RPMs. Wow! :rockon:

[Humble]

Pricing on the mendeola setup isn't too terrible. I think it was around 3400 for the complete front end, spindle to spindle. Like everyone else says, IRS is key for the rear. The guys at mendeola say they're getting 1+ lateral G on sticky street tires with their S2 chassis design. More food for thought :)

[Wally]

. The guys at mendeola say they're getting 1+ lateral G on sticky street tires with their S2 chassis design. More food for thought :)

Friend of mine over here measured that in his standard beetle as well. IRS, lowered, 7/8,5Jx17 so I am not too impressed with 'just' 1+ G
How much the '+' really is, would make it interesting and if it would really be MUCH better than you can achieve with original parts. For $3400,00 it would have to be imo.

[ricola]

constant radius 'g' would be more to do with the suspension loaded geometry and what tyres (& temps) are used. For me suspension is there to deal with dynamic changes which are harder to put an absolute number on

[evilC]

constant radius 'g' would be more to do with the suspension loaded geometry and what tyres (& temps) are used. For me suspension is there to deal with dynamic changes which are harder to put an absolute number on

Agreed. A slalom test usually sorts out any evil handling motor and you don't even need a Moose!:lmao:

[volkdent]

Its not even about absolute grip for me either, the feel is very important. It's no fun to have a car that has major grip but doesn't give you confidence. I was always surprised that an old Golf always felt more fun to drive than a similar era Honda even though the numbers said a Honda actually gripped better. I'll take some roll to "feel" a corner sometimes than to have a grippy car that's more on/off twitchy at the limit.

Jason

[judgie]

not a big fan of either the red nine kit or the bolt on wishbone.
red nine kit turns it into a coil sprung linked front end with all the vehicle wieght being suported by two towers designed to take just a shock abosober.
the wish bone fornt ends dont have long enough wish bones to convince me that they will be any better than a well set up beam front end.

[Wally]

not a big fan of either the red nine kit or the bolt on wishbone.

the wish bone fornt ends dont have long enough wish bones to convince me that they will be any better than a well set up beam front end.

Very surprised you say that. The wish bones don't have to be that long in a double wishbone set-up for them to work their magic adjusting caster as they move up and down.
I think the Mendeola double wish bone set-up is miles better then the ball-joint bug front suspension.

[evilC]

Very surprised you say that. The wish bones don't have to be that long in a double wishbone set-up for them to work their magic adjusting caster as they move up and down.
I think the Mendeola double wish bone set-up is miles better then the ball-joint bug front suspension.

I agree with Rob. Short wishbones mean that for relatively small movements the geometry can change excessively. Longer wishbones operate over a smaller angular movement keeping camber under greater control. Also the reaction at the pivot points on longer wishbones is much les than with their shorter cousins meaning that flexible pivots like poly bushes have much less to do and the heim joints last longer.

I also agree you Wally, that the Mendeola double wishbone set up is infinitely better than twin trailing arms but also much better than Red9's design.

Clive

[oasis]

I love the ongoing banter with the compare and contrast with you guys who know the technical stuff. I'm sponging as much info as I can.

There's another Mendeola thread I had not seen until today. It includes an interesting Samba link. Well, the first page was interesting. I'll read the other 18 when I have time. ;)

Embedded here (http://mendeolamotors.com/motors/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=147:s2-chassis&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=110) is the link to the Mendeola page.

Without derailing the above discussion, what does everyone think of the rear set-up?

Also, the price difference between the front and the rear is noticeably lower than the complete chassis. Is setting up for their transaxle that complicated to warrant such a price? Would that total set-up be necessary if one were to get a custom Rancho transaxle?

I know I could ask Mendeola, and at some point I might, but I like the unbiased take everyone here has -- even if not always in agreement. :)

[judgie]

The main point i was trying to say is that IMHO you would be far better of spending your money on getting the stock set up working ot its best rather than spending money on somthing i really dont see as a improvement.
I see folk spending a lot of money on things that dont improve the performance on the car just becuase it should improve it, does not allways mean it will. yes with a day at the track and a stop watch you could well get better results from the wish bone front end but it will take somone who really knows how to drive and somone who knows how to set a car up to get the best results form it. The stock beam front end is very good and good results can be had with very little mods done to it.
Unless your in a unlimted race class and you are running at the front i think the money would be better spent on wheels and tyres, even with perfect suspension unless you have the bits that actuly make contact with the ground being the best that they can be you wont get results.
How much differant is the wieght of the wishbone front end? we allready have a light front end with the heavy beam, losing more wieght from the front i can see a lot more understear and the change in front rear balance would be hard to adjust for.

[evilC]

The main point i was trying to say is that IMHO you would be far better of spending your money on getting the stock set up working ot its best rather than spending money on somthing i really dont see as a improvement.
I see folk spending a lot of money on things that dont improve the performance on the car just becuase it should improve it, does not allways mean it will. yes with a day at the track and a stop watch you could well get better results from the wish bone front end but it will take somone who really knows how to drive and somone who knows how to set a car up to get the best results form it. The stock beam front end is very good and good results can be had with very little mods done to it.
Unless your in a unlimted race class and you are running at the front i think the money would be better spent on wheels and tyres, even with perfect suspension unless you have the bits that actuly make contact with the ground being the best that they can be you wont get results.
How much differant is the wieght of the wishbone front end? we allready have a light front end with the heavy beam, losing more wieght from the front i can see a lot more understear and the change in front rear balance would be hard to adjust for.

If you're going to put limits on cost, who drives and who sets it up I'm not playing any more!:D

What you say is very true but I would love to have a go at building a space frame bug with double wishbones front and rear with monoshock front and horizontal coilovers on the rear with bell cranks.................(its a lottery project)

[oasis]

The main point i was trying to say is that IMHO you would be far better of spending your money on getting the stock set up working ot its best rather than spending money on somthing i really dont see as a improvement.

Ouch. If that's the case, then maybe my search should stay narrowly focused on a Super if it's a bug. I know what I had, and that was taking a fairly pedestrian route.

[coolrydes]

Hello, Kevin "Coolrydes" Zagar here.

I've been racing with the P.C.A (Porsche club of America) for 15+ years and have been an instructor with them for 13+ years teaching other how to drive faster. Judgie has a point, however he does not understand how much a true chassis can help even the beginner.
When I started building our Subaru 6 cylinder powered Meyers Manxters for Mendeola with over 300hp I quickly found that a standard VW chassis no matter how many performance trick we did to it would simply not do. The cars were fast and even with my abaility to drive fast cars we could not get them to turn. They understeered like crazy. Understeer is when you turn the steering and the car still wants to go straight. We originaly developed our chassis for these cars, but after driving the first car and feeling the true performance and reide quality I knew one thing. These had to be made availible for any type one based vehicle. I've been into Germann cars for years and have owned over 70 VWs in the last 20 years.

If you guys would like to ask questions or would to just like to understand more about suspension feel free to post up in here, email, or call me.

untill then keep VWs alive .

[Wally]

You mentioned you developed the Mendeola chassis for the Manx buggy mainly because of huge understeer problems?
Wouldn't the even worse weight balance of a buggy not be a main cause or main contributing factor of that?
Double triangled suspension will always be better 99% of the cases, no question, but adressing the weight balance might give an near equally big inprovement I suppose?

Tnx,
Walter

[coolrydes]

You mentioned you developed the Mendeola chassis for the Manx buggy mainly because of huge understeer problems?
Wouldn't the even worse weight balance of a buggy not be a main cause or main contributing factor of that?
Double triangled suspension will always be better 99% of the cases, no question, but adressing the weight balance might give an near equally big inprovement I suppose?

Tnx,
Walter

Walter,
Your right in your understanding of weight balance and that was one of the first things we tried with the VW chassis after adding and performing every trick we could to the beam style chassis. We moved the battery to the front spare tire area, we even put a largest battery we could find up front. Then came lead plates as a final attempt. After that we knew we would have to start from scratch.

With our chassis we are able to control camber and caster. Both are very importain when trying to get a car to bite when going into a turn. If you look at most modern day performance suspensions of new sports cars you'll notice camber is anywhere from a half a degree and up, both front and even more so in the rear. There are other factors like dive, body roll, and center of gravity to take into consideration, however for the sake of these forums lets keep it simple. I don't think anyone wants to turn this into a suspension engineering thread.. :) Lets face it our beloved VWs were never ment to go fast, much less turn at any speed faster then a person can walk. So trying to make an early VW handle is something that is not possible with a beam suspension.

[spannermanager]

It certainly is possible to make a beam equipped car handle, I've built and raced them all over the years, from standards to '02's to my 1303 turbo with 4x4 transmission, differing disciplines also, Porsche challenge, GP Midgets on ovals, on grass, tarmac, whatever, so i know what handling is, but I'm now playing with a beam again, just for fun and because i can, and it happened to be in my garage, it blows off enough 'sports cars', or' super cars', to the point where it amazes myself, and more importantly the owners off these cars. we all know about the theoretical shortfalls of the beam, but in real world terms, they are meaningless, my beam is nowhere near full on as i have rules to comply with, so it wont control a ten inch slick, but in my world, there are no 10 inch slicks because they're illegal, so all it has to do is be the quickest bug, and it is still a bug, once its all Porsche, or whatever, where you gonna go next? its not a bug anymore so whats the point? Be in no doubt, its short sighted to say a beamer cant handle:p, i will have data logged figures this season, so i cant wait, but i don't have to back it up, i already have, :cup1:come and catch me!:cup1: bring it on guys, further, if i do fit double whishbones, i will race with moslers, Porsches and ferrarays, i'll still beat them but it wont be as much fun..:rockon: