GTyp3: 69 Notchback sleeper

[Wally]

Hi fellow german style fans,

Last year I bought a 'short nose' type 3 notchback, which suffered a short engine fire, so I got the car with partially burned wiring loom and two seperate incomplete engines.
Upside was that its a '69, so old model, but only old modelyear with IRS already as standard. And it was reasonably solid as far as rust goes.
From the documentation and some other clues it seems to have only done 105.000km's (70K miles), so thats not too bad.

Other then that, there are and were a LOT of stupid things done to the car. I won't list, but, MAN!

Still, could have been a lot worse ;)

https://live.staticflickr.com/1763/43383073161_7c769b930c_b.jpg

As it sits now, just back from inspection, so I can drive it on the roads legal again for the next 2 years without worry :):
https://live.staticflickr.com/7834/33652867108_1449806dfb_b.jpg

And this is the engine/tranny combination I intent to transplant into to it someday somehow:
https://live.staticflickr.com/862/41840016330_703547432a_b.jpg

Engine is 997.2 3,8ltr GT3 unit with 435 hp stock. I got it "cheap" cause the car it came out of was in an accident and some motor parts were effected. So, the engine will have to be disassembled and inspected and then rebuild, so that will be 'fun' and by far the most scary part of the whole built.

For a tranny I got lucky and found another short-nose G50, this time a /00 version ('87 probably), this time in germany. Tranny is said to 'probably' be very good, as it was sold from a (porsche tuner) shop owner who died and whos old personal inventory was sold on ebay.
Since the GT2 and GT3 engine are the 'Metzger-build' ones, they still use the older aircooled (964) derived engine cases, which should fit the older G50 without adapater plate. I haven't mated them yet, so that remains to be seen...
The 997.2 were also the last Metzger engines made, so I am extremely happy with the engine as it should run easy 8500 RPM in stock trim and with some better intake and less restrictive exhaust, over 450hp should be possible. N/A !! :D

For now, I already switched to 944 n/a brakes in the rear and for the front I have now the CB with alu hub and drilled disk in 5x130 set-up. I am not entirely happy with the front disk set-up for this combo.
(the disk set and the wheels you see, were originaly bought for my old semi-auto 1200LS bug that I sold on again to pay for the notch).
So, front brakes will probably become boxster rear calipers to fit the 15" rims, as this will best still fit the sleeper goal for the car.

For now it runs great with the (I think) original single port single carb 1500N engine that was with the car, so I will first enjoy the car as is this summer!

I will keep an exclusive update here on germanlook.net for the build as you guys understand best what this is all about hey ;)

[Bad bug]

You are one lucky man to find these g50/50 gearboxes i would like to get one of these gearboxes for my beetle but have no luck in finding one that is for sale cheap. Wally how much did you pay for the gearbox also what happened to your new t4 turbo project did you also sell that project?

[Wally]

Beware: this is NOT a G50/50 gearbox! G50/50 are turbo tranny's and are mega $$
This is the earliest version: G50/00 from a '87 G-model 911. Prices are all on ebay, just make sure you know your sh*t and what you're looking for and then keep looking. Luck has nothing to do with that ;-)

The 1303 Mythbuster T4Turbo project is underway again as well. A slight mishap neccesatated a rebuild...; I'll update that thread later, ok? ;)

[Steve C]

wow, I cant wait to see this build progress

[Bad bug]

Beware: this is NOT a G50/50 gearbox! G50/50 are turbo tranny's and are mega $$
This is the earliest version: G50/00 from a '87 G-model 911. Prices are all on ebay, just make sure you know your sh*t and what you're looking for and then keep looking. Luck has nothing to do with that ;-)

The 1303 Mythbuster T4Turbo project is underway again as well. A slight mishap neccesatated a rebuild...; I'll update that thread later, ok? ;)

Ok i see on the g50/50 tranny, but if one is to buy one what should i be looking for? i want to put this in a vw bug.

[Wally]

G50 info about install and which one and why, is all there:
https://www.germanlook.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9412

Thats (partly) what I meant by 'make sure you know your sh*t'. Browse through the transmission section here, Porsche fora, etc, etc.
YOU have to do that work first. I did :-)

That said, my 1303 uses a G50/01 and for the notch I got a G50/00 (not on purpose, it was just available). Both are 911 (G- model) '87-'89 - only "Carrera 3,2ltr" models. All other G50 transmissions are 6-speed and even longer. G64 is a 4x4 trans and you would have to do even more work fitting that.
So, just the /00 and /01 models would be short enough to begin with to even try. Still, even these 'short-nose' ones are longer then stock, so be aware of that.

[Clatter]

How are you going to deal with the subframe??
Inquiring minds want to know!:D

You saw the sub mods I did with my Fastback on TOS?

[Wally]

Good one Clatter! Frankly, I haven't given it much thought as the type 3 IRS arrangement looks so much more like a 911 rear end, it was more like: 'how hard can it possibly be?' :lmao:

Of course, reinforcement of the rear hanger section would have to be adressed and that seemed to me like the biggest mod to do, body-wise.

TOS = thesamba?

Please enlighten me!

[Clatter]

Yes, TOS = That Other Site.
My build thread there has deteriorated into a 120-page lifestyle/travel/blog that's now discussing nuances of French grammar, but if you want to look, there's a few pics and some info buried in there somewhere.. :rolleyes:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=581759


In doing the 915 (actually 923) conversion,
I learned a few details of the VW type 3 you might find interesting.
(Or that, more likely, you already know all about, but humor me)



First of all, VW made the type 3 to be their premier luxury car of the time,
Choosing to isolate the running gear from the shell itself with rubber.
This means those big rubber beam mount thingies on the beam in front,
And five rubber donut mounts for a separate removeable sub-frame in the rear.
Many building a high-power car will solid-mount the rear sub to the body for obvious reasons, the biggest being that the rubber-mounted sub is notorious for causing wheel-hop on hard launches.
T3Detectives in the UK sold these solid mounts, and someone on TOS was selling them as well.
Not sure if you can get them anymore..
Some used aluminum, others Delrin, but they would be easy enough to whip up on a lathe.
Others have chosen to section in a beetle rear sub..
FWIW, since mine is a road/GT type of deal, I decided to make my own rubber mountings for the sub.

ANyways,
Even with a feeble stock motor, VW did a few things to strengthen the rear subframe, mostly for use in the squareback, due to it's heavier loads.
Here's an early square subframe; early swing type 3s had horns like a beetle.
This big squared-off brace runs the width of the torsion tube on square subs only, reportedly.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1160047.jpg

Later subs, with no horns, on the square, you will see these little corner gussets at the ends of the tube.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1160046.jpg

Here's a shot of an early and a late sub, and the start of mocking up my 915 kit from bug@5-speed.
I chose to do horns and rear hanger bar both, because I was staying all rubber mount and needed all the support I could get.
You'll likely not even bother with horns.


Because VWs get especially tail-heavy with bigger motors, we all want to move the drive train forward if possible.

I did get a couple mm forward, but that's it. The torsion tube at the center got ground as thin as I dared, and with the thin nose cone, that was it.
Because your G50 is so huge, you'll need to 'tunnel' right up thru the front of the sub area, and that likely means eliminating the torsion bars altogether.
Because the type 3 sub has mounts at the top of the rear shock towers,
It might just mean that they will take the loads better than a beetle, good for coil-overs,
however, watch out for their strength, as they are fabbed from sheet, not castings like a bug.
I stitch-welded the perimeter of the sub to help with this FWIW..
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1160044.jpg

Something else to notice on the above pic is the little 'cups' on the top of the shock towers.
Those were on later cars only, far as I can tell. They were to help locate the rubber mounts at the top of the sub. Something to note, depending upon if you keep rubber mounts, or if you run coil-overs, or..?


OK, on to the front mount.. You will likely completely remove this entire area of your car, and move the motor like five inches forward, right?:D
Maybe also raise the drive train an inch or two while you're at it?:cool:

Either way, the shift rod on a P-car has to go right up through where this circle is drawn. Your circle will likely have to be about a foot in diameter?
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1160039.jpg

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1165231.jpg

If you dig around in my build thread there are a bunch of pics of how I tunneled thru the front sub mount, and used four factory torsion tube mounts on the side of the tunnel,
The pan gets modified, build a house under the rear seat, etc. etc.
But I'm guessing you will be solid-mounted, and the front of your trans will not only be different, but way farther forward.. so we'll skip that whole part..
My own build thread is too big for me to even dig thru..:rolleyes:

The shifter is offset to the driver's side in a type 3.
Additionally, there is an elevation change front-to-rear.
I solved both of these issues by using these sealed steering u-joints I got from Summit or Jegs or someplace.
That also means you'll need another shift rod bushing in the tunnel, so it doesn't just deflect..
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1165250.jpg

If you really want to build a sleeper, best to tuck the wheels, right?
So,
Holy grail is a narrowed sub.
WAY more involved than a Beetle!
Cut me apart a parts car before just deciding it was all way too much..
(top of the shock mount area! :eek:)
However,
In hindsight,
The bottom of the 'load floor' area above the trans is double-walled.
BUT
it is only tacked/spot-welded in place.
If you get under there and remove that kind of 'false' lower load floor,
You will have a view of all the stampings and their construction.

Once you see them all, you'll understand why this is something I'm saying..

And, yes, I did actually see a type 3 with a torsion raise once,
But it was a patina/lowrider hack like you see everywhere these days, unfortunately.

Anyways,
Hope that these pics give you some info about what the parts look like under there, and what you're up against.

There's only like three or four type 3s with 5-speeds on the Internet,
And for good reason!

[Wally]

Great info man!
I knew the squareback had some more strengthened parts, but you deffo taught a few new ones. Thanks!

Mine doesn´t have tranny forks (IRS) as its a '69, but eliminating the torsion bars will very probably the way I go.
Other then that, this car will NOT be an ultimate racer of track animal or anything. The notch will just be a platform for the engine and a dyno queen at most haha!
Still, whatever I can do to make parts a little stronger, of course I'll do that. I already regret I discarded the parts form a late square that came with the car... the rear subframe and stronger front sway bar would have been nice. But i didn;t want the garage floor full with 'junk' if you know what I mean ;)

Anyways, as the generator was not charging at idle and the voltage regulator was broken (scary voltage at the terminals..), it was cheaper to change over to a new alternator with build in VR and more amps load capacity (50A)

Brackets were just a mornings work, very pleased how it worked out!

https://live.staticflickr.com/7868/47548100122_6259f56e74_b.jpg

At least I can now drive the car :)

[Clatter]

Well that doesn't look like much of a motor right there.. Alternator or no alternator! Ha ha..:D

Sorry if I'm all over the six-cylinder installation, but it's stuff that's been floating around in my head for the last 15 years or so.

So you want it to be a road car.. Full gentleman?
That means a rubber-mounted sub, then, right?
Always felt to me that the type 3 just floated down the highway soft and plush like the 'murrican V8s I grew up with.
It's really part of the appeal.
Compared to my beetle, the ride is very civilized.
It'll add another dimension to the build to make the rear sub still float on rubber, but handle that much power as well.
Maybe time to start a junkyard tour with an eye on motor mounts to use..?


IMHO, you're going to have to move the trans forward an inch or two just to make room for that motor!

You'll be removing all of the cooling ductwork from the rear of the car?
It would make room no doubt, but moving the drive-train forward is such a noble pursuit, you might consider saving the ductwork and apron as a side benefit. :p

The limit to how far forward my drive-train could move was my decision to keep the torsions.
If you go coil-overs, the limit to how far forward your drive-train could go would then become the CV angles.
When you go as far forward as you can, then the CV flanges move forward of square from the centerline of the axles, therefore 'sweeping back'.
So at that point, max CV angle at full compression and full droop, plus 'sweep back' angle = max angle.

I'm assuming that your CVs are similar to 930, and have a good angle,
(or you can easily swap to 930 CVs),
So there's your max forward drivetrain limitation..

Dunno if this makes any sense...


I'll try and find the time to dig up the relevant pics from my build thread.
The 'house' under the rear seat I had to make was surprisingly small.
You also only see small little 'humps' at the rear of the back-seat floor, in front of the kick-panel, because of my rubber mounting.

So, if you go full gentlemen, rubber-mount and all, plus moving your bigass G-50 like four or five inches forward, it will still have a bit of foot-room for your rear-seat passengers.
Gentlemen street cars need rear-seat foot-room, of course, right? ;)

I say you should aspire to move the drivetrain way forward and upward,
As well as narrow the torsion housing.
Plus rubber mount!
But, of course, it's not years of my life to be spent doing it, so of course I'll say that..! :D

I'm only 12 years into my project, and it's still a bare shell, so don't listen to me.

Still, if you're going to rip the thing open for such radical surgery.
might as well go forward with all of that weight!

Get that damn thing stripped down to a shell already! :lmao:

[Steve C]

This is turning into a great read, thanks for all the additional info Clatter.

I cut off my chassis forks and made new ones from 1 3/4" roll cage tubing, I used 40 HP length torsion bars (30mm Swayaway) when I cut through the torsion bar area for my G50

[Wally]

Well that doesn't look like much of a motor right there.. Alternator or no alternator! Ha ha..:D

Hey, don't discard the 1500 single port engine! :lmao::D
But it really runs nicely when warmed-up and this car is so much fun to drive, so I really wanted to make the most of it while it still is in one piece.


Sorry if I'm all over the six-cylinder installation, but it's stuff that's been floating around in my head for the last 15 years or so.

Me too, hence I bit the bullit while I had the chance ;)


So you want it to be a road car.. Full gentleman?
That means a rubber-mounted sub, then, right?

Yeah, - ish...Not sure what it means, but I'll just want it in asap and only do the "neccesary", whatever that means, but basically a sleeper car and whatever 'easy' upgrades I can do 'while in there', of course I'll do that.
I already have an ultimate road racer (the 1303), so this doesn't need that corner hugging performance.
It'll still be a many year project I am sure, life events permitting.


IMHO, you're going to have to move the trans forward an inch or two just to make room for that motor!

You'll be removing all of the cooling ductwork from the rear of the car?
It would make room no doubt, but moving the drive-train forward is such a noble pursuit, you might consider saving the ductwork and apron as a side benefit. :p

The limit to how far forward my drive-train could move was my decision to keep the torsions.
If you go coil-overs, the limit to how far forward your drive-train could go would then become the CV angles.
When you go as far forward as you can, then the CV flanges move forward of square from the centerline of the axles, therefore 'sweeping back'.
So at that point, max CV angle at full compression and full droop, plus 'sweep back' angle = max angle.

I'm assuming that your CVs are similar to 930, and have a good angle,
(or you can easily swap to 930 CVs),
So there's your max forward drivetrain limitation..

Dunno if this makes any sense...

Yeah, thats about the idea: the tranny has already 930 flanges and there are 930 flanges for the IRS VW arms. I also already have a set of bullit proof axles equipped for 930 CV's, so I'll just see what room forwards those allow and that will be it.
Yeah, I have a funny way of doing things hey? :rolleyes:


I'll try and find the time to dig up the relevant pics from my build thread.
The 'house' under the rear seat I had to make was surprisingly small.
You also only see small little 'humps' at the rear of the back-seat floor, in front of the kick-panel, because of my rubber mounting.

So, if you go full gentlemen, rubber-mount and all, plus moving your bigass G-50 like four or five inches forward, it will still have a bit of foot-room for your rear-seat passengers.
Gentlemen street cars need rear-seat foot-room, of course, right? ;)

I'am really not concerned with rear seat availability tbh, we'll see what it ends up with wrt room or not.
More concerned - and what I see as the biggest modification - is the rear hanger situation. You really can't use the original sheet metal rear end of these imo, so some sort or roll cage will need to come in with a support bar to the back where the engine pick-up point is located. That is the part I want to do as subtle as possible, but will also be the most challenging one I suspect.
All in all, I think the rear fresh air ducting can remain, there is enough room for the engine already from the original transmission bellhousing backwards. The rear original cooling is about the depth of the extra 2 cylinders ;)


Still, if you're going to rip the thing open for such radical surgery.
might as well go forward with all of that weight!

Have you picked-up an original - complete - type 3 engine lately? :eek:
I can hardly imagine the six being that much heavier, so I am not that concerned.


Get that damn thing stripped down to a shell already! :lmao:
Hell no! Haha! These cars are so nice and cool to drive, first enjoy that.

Other then wanting to drive it, this six was somewhat affordable because of accident damage and it has an annoying crack in a place (bell housing area of the casing) that require complete tear down, rerpair and reassemble.
Now, i have disassembled quite some engines in my life, but never rebuild a Porsche watercooled six, let alone a GT3 one. So me driving the notch will nicely coincide with rebuilding the six. After I rebuild reinstall and retune the type 4 turbo engine first.
So, you - as I - have to have a little patience my friend ;)

[petevw]

Cool project Wally!

[Wally]

Thanks Pete!

As I had not really test fitted the '87 G50 tranny and the 2012 engine together just yet, I test fitted the dual mass flywheel and went ahead positioning the tranny.

Somebody on Pelican said only the GT2 and GT3 Metzger engines fitted the G50's, but you never really know till you try hey?

It indeed fits flawlessly! :D

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48523350901_c58796cdb8_z.jpg

Other then that, I've been doing some small fixes on the notch, but this was good for motivation ;)

[Bad bug]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48523350901_c58796cdb8_z.jpg


Wally dry sump tank on this engine would you recommend it's use on a t4 or waterboxer engine.

[Wally]

I dunno, it seems oddly shaped and I think its crazy expensive if you had to buy a used one. Why would you even want to consider that? Strange question?

Anyways, trying to find the correct starter motor for this combo, so I can test compression, is a test of patience..I bought a wromg one, hopefully coming week I have the correct one here. Fortunately the chinese electrical parts are cheap and usually work just fine (1303 has one too and that one works awesome!).

In the meantime, the 'project creep' has gotten to the front brakes :D
Did make sense to up that area a bit more, so the CB alu wheel bearing houses with 5x130 studs and disk/calipers are for sale now.

This was a lot more work: epytec wheel - 944 outer, type 1 inner - bearing housings, boxster calipers and cayman 299x20mm disks, plus adapters from Lanner:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48557852881_1f7625b5ba_b.jpg

[DORIGTT]

So you purchased the Epytec hub and bracket kit? How well made were they?

Are you using their bracket, or are you using something you fabbed up?

[Wally]

So you purchased the Epytec hub and bracket kit? How well made were they?

Are you using their bracket, or are you using something you fabbed up?

Just the hub; Lanner made me a custom bracket for type 3 (as the steering arm on the spindle is always in the way) and my particular set of parts ;)

[DORIGTT]

How would you rate the quality of the hub? Will it endure your track usage and such?

It uses the standard VW spindle which means no special machining and such correct?

I'd like to get a set for my '70 Ghia, but I've got 944T brake calipers.

[Wally]

How would you rate the quality of the hub? Will it endure your track usage and such?

It uses the standard VW spindle which means no special machining and such correct?

I'd like to get a set for my '70 Ghia, but I've got 944T brake calipers.
Its extremely good quality! Very good alu, machined very nicely! I am sure it will stand anything you throw at it. I won't track the notch in the future though, but I am sure it would be fine with these hubs.

Yep, fits standard VW type 1 wheel bearings.

However, its meant for stock 944 front disk and everything else will be custom. This is of course trivial info, but just realise this.
Only thing that didn't work for me with these hubs is the hole for the Porsche studs: its too small for my taste; its like 14,2 mm, while the studs have ribbed splines with 14,7 or 14,8mm outer size. They fit too tight then, so I drilled the holes to 14,5mm and now the interference fit is much better and they press in easier, still quit some force is needed, but as the material they used is superstrong, the interference fit can (needs) to be a little less extreme (which it was originally).

Other then that, you also need a special seal on the inside (not in the kit) as the VW part doesn't fit and you will also need the stock 944 hubcaps and your left one with the speedo opening.

So, very high quality, but its no buy and run it same day thing. It never is though when using Porsche brakes is my experience ;-)

[H2OSB]

This is perhaps a silly question, Wally, but do you know of any other hub that takes stock T1 wheel bearings and also a 944 rotor? I looked these up but didn't quite understand what I was looking at(though admittedly, I didn't spend much time looking at them).

I'd really like to find a way to use my set of Porsche 924 spindles, which use both the 15mm 1303 balljoint and T1 wheel bearings.

H2OSB

[Wally]

Well, there is no other aftermarket company doing s/th like that, but CB does make a nice set of alu hubs in 5x130 pattern and I happen to have a set 4sale at half cost of new and only 150km or so :rolleyes:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48582219147_8f2b226003_z.jpg

Since I needed something that looked even more capable with the intended 6cyl mod (Inspection wise), these are for sale, but the intention originally was to use a porsche disk with these. Ask Lanner for details if you will.
250 euros complete with calipers, 200 for just the set of new alu hubs with studs, new bearings and perforated disks.
Just FYI of course ;)

[H2OSB]

Did you already mod the CB hubs to take Porsche rotors?