How can I make my 79SB handle better?

[SportyBug]

I want to make my car handle like the best of them out there. Well, atleast better than it does now if nothing else. And I'm not sure where to start or what to do. I cant really lower my car too much because I bottom out on the EVIL SPEEDBUMPS in town. (It HAS to be illegal how tall these things are!) Thanks guys, Mike

[Superman]

Stiffer (high rate) springs, a 7/8" sway bar, gas shock inserts, and a strut bar brace will get the results you want with minimum lowering (about 1" depending on springs).

[Aurumen]

handling has an easy rule of thumb for what makes yer car handle better. from most important to least important...

TIRES
Shocks
sway bars
springs

Actually it should be exaggerated more to be

TIRES








Shocks
sway bars
springs

because tires are the absolute most important thing when it comes to handling. A distant second is shocks because those keep yer tires in contact with the road. Sway bars help you tune which half of your car gets more grip...the front or the rear. And springs should be the last thing to worry about (unless you like yer car to look better with less wheel gap) when it comes to handling.

Nick

[vujade]

A low profile 40 or 50 series tire will get rid of body roll almost completely.

[lightning bug]

Springs aren't just for looks. Lowering springs give you higher rates (in most cases) and lower your center of gravity which is very important in handling. They also stiffen your susp. (rates) therefore preventing the car from diving. Eg- you don't want your car to "nosedive" into a turn and lighten up the rear-end. Now you have no traction in the rear. Nothing else will help you there. I believe springs are equally important.

[Aurumen]

Springs don't lower your center of gravity that much...that doesn't come into play much until you start gettin Formula One type lowering where the wheel centers are very close to the center of gravity. If you run some calculations, lowering yer car one inch or two inches doesn't change the overturning moment much.

I agree with you on the brake dive thing...i just forgot about it. I'm not saying springs aren't important at all...but they are the least important of the upgrades. With sticky tires, i can make a 4X4 handle well. Without good shocks, every bump in the road is gonna make those sticky tires come out of contact with the road. Without properly balanced sway bars, the wrong half of the car may be gripping giving you under or oversteer...but i can overcome all of those without touching the springs. In autocross, a stock miata (pretty soft springs) with sticky tires could keep up with my highly modified car (425 lb/inch springs, koni shocks, front and rear sway bar) with hard tires, and i even had a better power to weight ratio than he did!!!

Nick

[lightning bug]

Doesn't come into play??? Think about it. Whether it be 1" or 5", you're that much closer to the ground (lower center of gravity). F1 or autocross it DOES matter. Why do FIA rally navigators sit literally on the floor??--- Lower center of gravity. Why are all roadrace cars from SCCA to LMS lower to the ground? Not for looks. You want to lower center of gravity for more roll resistance. This keeps your sticky tires on the track. Therefore, more traction and faster corner speeds and faster lap times. Springs are also VERY important in roadracing for balancing corner weights. The car won't dive only under braking. It will roll and dive making a turn especially off camber. Another point... you don't want to lower too much as to have your car bottom out. you're defeating your purpose then. Shocks are for rebound. They prevent the suspension from bouncing. Its a damper that slows down the reaction of everything else. Equally important. Every component of your suspension should work with one another. Eg.-- stiff springs and stock shocks you'll have poor rebound and the car will bounce all over. Swaybars aren't the only thing that controls body roll..... springs do too. BTW- A Miata is balanced 50/50 from the factory. Its an excellent handling car to begin with. Another point... Don't just buy parts because they're available. Research and see what is working. For instance.... My Rabbit GTI has numerous swaybars and braces and everything else available. I have found that a stock front and larger rear works best as far as swaybars go. My point again... Don't just buy it b/c its available.

[Aurumen]

yeah, i didn't say it didn't have an effect...i said (at least i meant...hehe) that you'll have the greatest effect in that order. For instance...on a skidpad...going from stock hard tires to sticky tires will probably pick you up, say...something like 5 mph...going from stock springs to race springs aren't gonna be anywhere near that effective unless you have the tires first. you'd probably pick up 1 or 2 mph.

I do not think shorter stiffer springs have that much effect on body roll, which is what you're talking about. And i'm not a true believer that reducing body roll increases your cornering ability, but that's my opinion...i think it's just psychological because when i go around a corner, i want all my weight over the outside tires where it'll do the most good and if the center of gravity rolls over to that site a little, that's more weight on the outside tires.

No matter what we decide on the effectiveness of the other parts...i think you'd agree with me that they're nothing without tires...that was my point i was trying to make.

Was the comment about buying things cuz they're available directed at me or the original writer of this thread?

No offense meant on any of this and i welcome constructive criticism of my ideas :)

Nick

[SportyBug]

Originally posted by lightning bug
My Rabbit GTI has numerous swaybars and braces and everything else available. I have found that a stock front and larger rear works best as far as swaybars go. My point again... Don't just buy it b/c its available.
Ok, do you (or anyone else) have any suggestions asto what brand and size of sway bars/shocks I should use? I'm waiting on tires (and everything else till I can figure why my car shimmies) but I plan on getting some wider than stock (4.5") rims.

Oh, I'm not worring about making my bug in to a race car, just a street terror! I want to stike fear into all those hondas and mustangs!

[lightning bug]

I never said that tires were not important. You're right they probably are the most. If you think that body roll doesn't effect cornering or handling, then why even put swaybars on your car. Think about what you're saying. Swaybars help to limit bodyroll by transferring the weight from one side of the car to the other (left or right). They will also aid in traction on the opposite end than they are installed (front, rear). You have soft stock springs on your car. Drive down the street and jerk the wheel back and forth. Your car will squish back and forth (bodyroll). Now put stiffer springs on your car. Do the same test. I'll guarantee the car doesn't squish as much. Therefore you eliminated bodyroll. Springs absorb the ride. They are a major part of weight transfer of the car (bodyroll). If you have soft springs and make a quick turn, that side is going to, again, roll, and the opposite side will lift (eg. tires) sacrificing traction on that side. No I'm not aiming that comment toward anyone. I'm just trying to make a point that all the accessories aren't always the answer.

[lightning bug]

Originally posted by SportyBug
Ok, do you (or anyone else) have any suggestions asto what brand and size of sway bars/shocks I should use? I'm whating on tires (and everything else till I can figure why my car shimmies) but I plan on getting some wider than stock (4.5") rims.

Oh, I'm not worring about making my bug in to a race car, just a street terror! I want to stike fear into all those hondas and mustangs!

I hear ya! I want the same for my car too. These characteristics apply on the street and the track. The street you want a susp. that will perform but you want to keep a comfy ride too. As for brand names, research and find what's best for you and your budget. I'm using Bugpack swaybars, Koni shocks and Maxx struts w/Koni's inthe front. I'm also usind a Topline front upper tie-bar and possibly a rear KC brace. Tires I'm running Bridgestone Potenza S-03's. I've driven the car with the swaybars and Koni's, minus the Maxx's I had springs, and the front tie-bar. The car handled awesome. It should handle even better with my wider wheel and tire combo, cage and possibly rear brace. As for your shimmie problem.... FIRST!! start with the basic maintainence parts like your idler arm bushing, steering rack, tie-rods, ball joints.....etc......etc.....etc. Then start modifying. You can go to Topline's site www.toplineparts.com or call Jon @ Topline. He'll be more than happy to help you and suggest some remidies.

[Aurumen]

I put sway bars on my car to effect my front and rear traction...that's the main reason anyone does it. It also helps the car FEEL more stable (no body roll)...but i don't think reducing body roll improves traction too much...however i do think that mentally, i feel i can push my car more if it doesn't roll. that's why i said it's psychological. I don't care if the opposite side's tires come off the ground...they aren't doing anything anyways!! That's why when cars "three-wheel" in auto-x...the car does not lose control...because that wheel that's pulled off the ground isn't doing anything.

Maybe i'd wanna keep some weight on the opposite side to keep the load on the inside tire lower so the tire itself doesn't roll on the rim...but that's also why i run 40 psi in my tires on race day.

Sporty bug...i'd suggest going with bilstein or koni shocks...both are equally priced (just about) and both are lifetime guaranteed. The koni's are adjustable, bilsteins are not...but bilstein says there is no need to just them and that they self adjust...either one is a good shock/strut. Swaybars, just go with the standard bugpack type variety. No need to go crazy. Start by buying the rear one, and if you think it's too tail happy (tail end tries to pass you) upgrade the front.

Nick

[lightning bug]

You're right. My Rabbit does that in the rear. When that rear tire comes up its less resistance. Why do you think that tire comes up in the air? Probably a swaybar. Like I said, along with front to rear traction, it helps with side to side weight transfer.

[Aurumen]

yeah, i know the swaybar (or stiff stock suspension with solid beam) makes it come up...i was just saying it comes up safely, cuz it's not really doing anything. All the weight is on the inside of the turn. One an aircooled VW, the front outside tire comes up :)

Nick

[lightning bug]

Sportybug- Sorry if we confused you. You have these debates sometimes. Check out the rear engine suspension post also. It may help you.

[SportyBug]

I think that I get it. Better tires, a sway bar in the back to start with and some stiffer shocks and struts. I think my Mcphersons are still very stiff though. Then a sway bar up front if the rear tries to pass the front. Right? Mike

[PunchBug]

I beleive most people will tell you that when you put a rear swaybar on, you should simultaneously put the larger bar on the front.

Aircooled.net sells the 7/8 " for the front and offers three options for the rear - Sway-a-way, 24 mm, and 27 mm. the first is non-adjustable, and the last two are adjustable -larger = stiffer.

There are other sources, but my main point is that by adding a rear, you really need to upgrade the front at the same time.

HTH,

Punch

[SportyBug]

Alright, with those swaybars what size should I start with? Small and work my way up, or just go big to start with? Mike

[lightning bug]

I'll second Punchbug's advice on adding a front regardless. I'd put the common 7/8" on the front and start with the common non-adjustable 3/4" (approx 19mm.) in the rear. You can get these pretty much from any supplier. Again.... Don't forget the normal wear parts also. These will greatly effect the way your car reacts. Good Luck!!

[RLW6000]

I have a 71 SB and I had a shimmie problem with mine. When I first got the car, it had old 5 spoke craigers with adapters on it and it shook a lot. I then put some stock wheels and worn out very old (sat on flats for 7 years) 165 sr 15's on it. The shake wasnt quite as bad, but still there. Now I have a good set of 185 65 15's on it and I have almost no shimmie what so ever. At certain speeds, I get a slight vibration and I think I can fix that with taking the wheels off and turning them 180 degrees and putting them back on. If it was me, I would check all the components in the front end and then replace my tires or at least get them ballanced and go from there. The shorter, wider tires helped my cornering ability a lot. Someday, I will upgrade my wheels, struts and numerous other things. Just my thoughts, good luck with it. Randy