difference between 944 '86 turbo & 87 turbo+ brakes?

[hot66]

does anyone know the what the difference is between 944 '86 turbo & 944' 87 + turbo brakes are ?

The rotors are are defined as being different in the parts catalogue.

Trying to buy the correct parts is a mine field.

[Superman]

The hubs were redesigned in '87 consquently so were the discs.

[SprintStar]

Are the spindles the same then? I'm running early 944 brakes all round on my car. What exactly do I need to make a turbo conversion?

Thanks.

Sprint.

[Superman]

No the spindles are not the same. The 944 has 4 different spindles and the only one that will bolt into our car (Supers) without modifications is the 83-85 944NA.

[LOAF]

I have a similar question also..
I believe i have 87 front spindles but can't figure out since I can't really read part number.. How much do they differ and what would it take to use 87 non turbo spindle up front..
I posted similar question else where.. Sorry for the double post.. I am also having pad problems
Alex

[SprintStar]

4 different spindles?! Manz.. that's a lot! :silly:

Hehe... So, do you have access to any parts diagrams? How do the different spindles differ? Same bearings? Do they bolt to the strut in the same way or different struts altogether? I believe the M030 strut is different, but the rest?

Does the lower balljoint mount the same? The control arm looks the same expect the early ones are steel with removeable ball joints whereas the late ones are aluminium with non-removeable ones...

Thanks.

Sprint.

[Superman]

Yes I have access to Porsche tech manuals as my Dad is a retired VW/Porsche/Audi Master Tech.

The spindles made many changes because as the calipers, ball joints, and hubs changed so did the spindle to mount these.

The struts basic shape is the same but the Porsche (late) strut is larger than the VW one. The Porsche springs have a larger O.D. than the VW and in simple terms the older the 944 got the componets got bigger, brakes became huge, ball joints went from 17mm to 19mm, etc.

[LOAF]

Superman thanks,

How about using porsche springs that are shorter.. i.e. Eibach prokit.. or something similiar.. I figure I would need something way softer.. Not sure of the spring rate on the SB.. But it would be stiffer than my stock but softer than porsche stock..

Foreseen problem...guess would be clearance of spring and wheel.. Maybe with spacers.. I would go with Flared fenders.. 1.5" or something.. Could I still use VW strut top to get a little lower and still be safe..
Sorry for incoherence.. Late and gotta go to work..(Me LAZY)

Any thoughts..

If anyone has info on the spindles that would be great.. Does anyone make a 19mm Balljoint vs the standard 17 that would have been needed if I had the right parts.. Still think its a 87 but who knows..
Thanks again
alex

[Superman]

If you use even the softest Porsche spring I think it would still be too heavy as the motor is in the front for that car. Also, you'd have to use the Porsche top mount for the spring and I don't know if the VW bearing will work with that or even if the spring itself will fit into the VW body. I've never looked into using the Porsche springs, mostly due to my first sentence here.

[SprintStar]

So, the 944 Turbo brakes are not exactly bolt on, eh? :(

Sprint.

[Superman]

The only way to just bolt them right on is with a kit from MBT.

www.mbt-engineering.de (http://www.mbt-engineering.de)

[LOAF]

Would it be possible with some Topline struts or similiar to try to get the 944 spindle to mount correctly.. Then my only issues I believe would be determining if the Ball Joints are 17 or 19 in size.. Is there a 19mm conversion from someone to make this a direct mount to super..
How is the 17 mm or 19mm measured.. Pics Please..
Alex

[SprintStar]

Hello Loaf,

Are you referring to the 'normal' 944 conversion or are you talking about more exotic stuff like 944 Turbo or 968 brakes?

If it's the former, it's a simple bolt-on affair. I've done it myself a while back. The only modification necessary is the addition of a shim of 1mm thickness to the stock balljoint to turn it into 17mm, up from the stock 15mm.

Good luck with your project.

Do you have a late or early Super?

Sprint.

[LOAF]

Sprint..
I am doing a late model conversion 78 convertible (super). I am also doing a normal conversion not turbo.... What do you mean about a shim 1mm? Can you elaborate.. I am getting curious.. Is this a same alternative to buying the 17mm Ball Joint..
I just picked up the Haynes 944 manual. Currently it is sitting in my daily driver, so when I get home from work I will study..

Thanks Alex:)

[Superman]

Get the 17mm ball joint from Kerscher!!! The homemade shim, which should be 2mm, is VERY dangerous and if it fails the control arm will come off the spindle and you will loose the ability to steer the car. The strut tower will be all but torn off the car, the wheel will be forced into the fender and body causing damage. All of this is before the car evently crashes into something because you can't steer it. Is your car and more importantly your life worth about $75??? You guys need to remember that all these cutting and welding modifications to the suspension can be a dangerous situation.

[GUTTERS]

GOOD SPEACH MY MAN, YOU ARE RIGHT- IS YOUR LIFE WORTH $75??.

[SprintStar]

Superman,

The shim should be 1mm as when wrapped around the ball joint, it becomes 2mm.

I agree that if the shim comes off, the effect will be diasterous. But looking at how the shim is interference fitted (in my case) onto the balljoint and how there's a slot for the bolt on the spindle to pass through, it's safe enough.

The movement of the control arm is up and down and the weight of the car is pressing on the shim and balljoint on the time. I feel it's unlikely it will fall off.

But all the same, you are right. For $75, it ain't worth my life. The reason why I did it was becoz Kerscher wanted nearly $200 for them some time back. That's why I decided against them.

If it's now $75 at Kerscher, I'd gladly buy a few pairs as I'm converting my other Super to 944 brakes soon as well. :)

Sprint.

[Superman]

Volksworld printed a disclaimer about the use of this shim because they are dangerous. The article also featured a crashed car in which these homemade shims had failed. The Kerscher 17mm ball joints, part number BZ 52015 are currently 47 EURO (about 50 US$). So that's about $100 (order two) plus shipping.

[SprintStar]

Which issue is this?

How was the shim made? Mine is an interference fit, so I think it's a tad safer.... :confused:

Anyway, since the Kerscher prices have dropped, I'll be ordering mine pretty soon!

Do you read German? I can make head or tail about their site...

Sprint.

[Superman]

I wouldn't say I can read German but I fumble my way through it just from looking at it for years. Navagation...

Go to the Kerscher site then select:
Tuning
Käefer
Bremsanlagen
Zubehör

this will bring you to the 944 conversion parts page.

[SprintStar]

Thanks man! You are Super! :D

Sprint.

[Tim]

I just bought the 17mm balljoints from Kershcer at EUR39.66/pc.

Tim

[SprintStar]

Did you call them or did you buy from the website?

Sprint.

[Tim]

I just sent them an email (in English). They replied promptly and I just followed what they told me to do. I received the goods about a week after I wired them the money.

Tim

[SprintStar]

Good to know that! How much was shipping to Hong Kong? What year is your Bug? Hehe.... What brakes are you using? 944 or 944 Turbo?

Sorry for being so nosy! :D

Sprint.

[Tim]

You are welcomed Sprint. I bought 4 pcs at the same time, one pair for myself and the other for my friend. Both are for '73 Super (I have also ordered some late control arms from Topline in the USA). I am going to install pre-86 944NA spindles/brakes. The freight (airmail parcel) to Hong Kong was EUR36.

[SprintStar]

Cool Tim! We should talk more. I got the same exact setup and not too far from you... :D
What engine are you running?

Sprint.

[Tim]

Definitely we should talk more! My project is a racing only 1303. I haven't started it yet as the suspension/brake parts are still on the way (only the Kerscher balljoints have arrived) and the car is still sitting in the garage. My original plan was to run a T4, something like 2200 to 2500cc. However due to limited time and budget, I will first build a T1 engine based on the existing 1641 T1 which I've got in my street standard Beetle. I will add a wild cam (not decide what to use yet) and modify the heads but will stay with the existing Kadrons and 1 3/8" extractor. I try to have my racer ready for coming June race.

Tim

[Superman]

Okay guys we are now off topic. This thread was about the difference between the hubs/discs on the 86/87 Turbo. The ball joints were sorta related but now this thread is going off topic with engine talk in the brake forum.

[Tim]

Sorry! I was getting too excited with my new project and forgot about the topic.

Tim

[SprintStar]

Hello Tim,

Let's talk this offline, shall we? May I email you?

Sprint.

[MattKab]

Originally posted by Superman
Get the 17mm ball joint from Kerscher!!! The homemade shim, which should be 2mm, is VERY dangerous and if it fails the control arm will come off the spindle and you will loose the ability to steer the car. The strut tower will be all but torn off the car, the wheel will be forced into the fender and body causing damage. All of this is before the car evently crashes into something because you can't steer it. Is your car and more importantly your life worth about $75??? You guys need to remember that all these cutting and welding modifications to the suspension can be a dangerous situation.

I went on a small campaign last summer targeting those who describe how to cowboy such a critical component interface. I detailed the problem last year and on the old GL site. Some waffling about pinch bolt groove radius. can that be dug up? I spread the word about the quality of fitment these ball-joints have. Mine each took 8500 kg force to push in. that'll do nicely.

I heard the source of the failed dickbush tradgedy was volksworld, I don't know I don't read it. If it's in there please confirm.

I get mail asking about my 4 wheel 4pot from all over the world. This is where I send 'em! If they don't come from here :)

For my convenience, I'll cut/paste and add a bit of sent mail:

At the front I used the stub-axles, 298mm vented discs and 4pot Brembos from
a 1987 model 944Turbo. I had to fit anti-bumpsteer bushes to the steering
arms to invert the outer track-rod ends. You'll need to change your 15mm
ball-joints for 17mm ones from Kerscher in Germany. I also used Kerscher
adjustable struts with 80mm Eibach springs and Koni adjustable inserts. The
stub-axles also needed the strut mounting holes welding up and re-drilling
5mm closer together, keeping equal spacing between the holes and the edge of
the mounting lugs on the forgings. Also the strut mounting tab of the stub-axle
needed 3mm(1.5mm each side) shimming inside the strut clamp. New from VW strut mounting bolt(top)/camber adjusting eccentric washer strut bolt(lower) and ball joint pinch bolt from a 80's golf/scirocco/jetta will do nicely. All M10 as opposed to Bug's M8 pinch bolt. I also fitted a
23mm anti-roll bar, again from Kerscher. The quality of their kit is second
to none. TUV approved I believe. You'll need a German friend for www.kerschertuning.de

At the back I'm using the stock Bug trailing arms and a 16mm 944 rear
anti-roll bar. 298mm vented discs, Aluminium back plates, Aluminium calliper mounts,
4pot Brembo's and handbrake set from a 1986 944Turbo, leaving out the 21mm
wheel spacer and fitting the 21mm shorter wheel studs from a 1987 944Turbo.
The callipers are shimmed ~3mm to the centre of the disc. You'll need to make
up some longer brake hard-lines for all 4 callipers, same unions as the Bug.
I also use Goodridge stainless braided flex hoses and DOT4 brake fluid. The
stock master cylinder displaces more than enough fluid to move the 16
pistons, no problem. Front/rear bias is sweet. Don't be told otherwise ;-)
The pedal effort necessary to stop the car requires a hydraulic pressure
barely high enough to operate the brake light switch! So I fitted a
micro-switch to earth to the bulk-head with a small 16amp relay at the brake light connector by the brake fluid delivery pipes. A M8 bolt in a 30mm piece of fuel hose is
strapped to the m/c push rod. The bolt head is adjusted to make contact with
the switch at a selected pedal position and is wired in parallel with the
original. Devastating braking if you want, Check your mirror!!!!


:coffee:



Rack and pinion, the track-rods need work as does the rack if you're running biggerrrrrrrrims

I'm working on adjustable steering limit Bug rack conversion. I'm currently using 2 shims in the rack, 22 and 28mm I recall.



Matt

[Superman]

I don't remember the issue of Volksworld it was as I don't subscribe either but they had an article that recommended this procedure of welding and drilling the spindles along with the added shims. This article, which included the ball joint shim, was denounced in a later issue due to safety issues and a reader that had crashed his car.

I don't feel hat welding, drilling, and adding shims to such a critical suspension piece is safe (to say the least). My plan is to take some 951 (944 Turbo) struts and build a coil-over kit to fit the Super, much like I did with these (http://www.superbeetlesonly.com/suspension/jjdesigned.html).

Although this is still not the best, it is the lesser of the two evils because if a spring fails the worst thing is the car will drop and perhaps pull to one side. If a welded/drilled/shimed spindle fails the fate will be much like that of a ball joint failure.

[Superman]

What I really, really, REALLY wish is I could afford the kit from MBT.

www.mbt-engineering.de (http://www.mbt-engineering.de)

http://www.mbt-engineering.de/engineering/fsa1/front031.jpg

[SprintStar]

How much are the MBT kits? I did download the pricelist, but I can't read German.... :confused:

Sprint.

[Superman]

The complete kit is $2500 (or more depending on what calipers you want) but the front hubs and spindle mounts are $800.

[SprintStar]

Are the hubs different?

I'm thinking of using 944 spindles, hubs and rotors with just their adaptor to fit the Turbo brakes... Will it work? Or am I on crack? :silly:

Sprint.

[Superman]

Their kit is to fit the Porsche disc and caliper to the VW spindle.

[Tim]

Hi Sprint,
If you don't mind, email me at cheungkamtim@ctimail3.com.

Tim

[MattKab]

Originally posted by Superman
I don't remember the issue of Volksworld it was as I don't subscribe either but they had an article that recommended this procedure of welding and drilling the spindles along with the added shims. This article, which included the ball joint shim, was denounced in a later issue due to safety issues and a reader that had crashed his car.

I don't feel hat welding, drilling, and adding shims to such a critical suspension piece is safe (to say the least). My plan is to take some 951 (944 Turbo) struts and build a coil-over kit to fit the Super, much like I did with these (http://www.superbeetlesonly.com/suspension/jjdesigned.html).

Although this is still not the best, it is the lesser of the two evils because if a spring fails the worst thing is the car will drop and perhaps pull to one side. If a welded/drilled/shimed spindle fails the fate will be much like that of a ball joint failure.

I love the idea of using the whole steering/suspension:D but it would mean too much modding for me. sourcing the right springrate, damping ratio and range. I like your thinking Supe.

With respect to '87 944T stub and Kerscher Golf style strut in my case:

Obviously when undertaking such procedures, a great deal of thought and attention to detail has to be paramount. Being an Engineer myself I know when and where to seek the right experience, facility and quality. MOT Inspector, Coded Welder, Chartered Precision Engineer, that kind of help. I'm satisfied with my ride and so are they :) Very important to me.

In this particular component interface, a properly* modified stub-axle is stronger than a modified strut clamp IMO. Again, the lesser of two evils. Also the stub-axle won't have the same garrantee as a new strut, cosidering the whole new assembly comes pre-assembled, best to leave it alone.

I never warmed to the idea of using caliper 'adapters' considering the appearance and the massive grip and braking torque the Porsche Engineers had in mind. I'm going for a drive...

[typ4boy]

you lot out there need too listen to superman about porsche spindles on late 2 bolt struts. DO NOT SHIM THE BALL JOINT YOU ARE DICING WITH DEATH, i do this conversion on a regular basis for my customers and i only use the speical ball joints that are availble from many german tuning shops .regards Lee L.A.Performance.

[typ4boy]

also while iam here check out our website we do our own struts why bother with all the hassle of modding porsche ones when you can buy a complete kit for £350 a pair and there on my 03 that regularly appears on the front page of this site regards Lee www.germanlook.co.uk