How to: 944 Turbo brakes on a Super

[Superman]

There are several ways to do this but unfortunately there is not a simple "bolt on" like with the 83-85 944NA. The best year to use is the 86 because it has the hubs designed like the 83-85 and the 87-91 have wider hubs and some have ABS also. In simple terms the 83-85 spindle to strut mount is short and fat and the 86-91 mount is tall and skinny. The below methods, with the exception of the MBT kit, also require the use of a 'bump steer' kit from Topline Parts (http://www.toplineparts.com) to mount the tie rods and the use of a 17mm ball joint from Kerscher (http://www.kerscher.de) in Germany. Take note that the Turbo spindle does not have the hole for the speedo cable.

The best way (and safest) is with a kit from MBT (http://www.mbt-engineering.de/) that has hubs and caliper mounts that bolt to the Super's spindle and keeps the original steering geometry. Nothing is welded or altered and this is an actual bolt on kit; however, it costs US$3,000.

Another way is to weld the holes on the Turbo spindle and redrill them in the 83-85 pattern. The Turbo spindle is thinner than the NA by 2mm so this will have to be accounted for also.

Lastly, what I did, is to take some 951 (944 Turbo) struts and build a coil-over kit to fit the Super, like I did with these (http://www.germanlook.com/Forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13442). This way the spindle to strut mount is factory and not altered in any way with welding or shims.

NOTE: Keep in mind when doing suspension modifications/alterations that if these components fail it may result in loss of car or life.

[SprintStar]

Can we drill out the spindle for the speedo hole?

How are the 951 struts different to the 944 ones? Do they bolt to the strut towers different?

Sprint.

[Superman]

Yes a competent machine shop can drill out the hole for the speedo cable.

The basic design is the same but the Turbo specs are larger. The strut mount is longer but thinner, the caliper mount is 18mm bigger, and the hubs/discs aren't the same. If you want the Turbo brakes you'll need all the Turbo parts, they don't interchange with the NA parts in the front, as they do in the rear.

[Wally]

Hey Superman,
The drilling of the speedo hole might be very difficult. Have you ever let it do by a shop?
To overcome the problem I've used a bike (yes, bike) aftermarket digital computer speedo: they work with a magnet to the bike wheel and a pick-up point on the frame (same principle as a dizzy hall-geber or uni-lite system). So I attached the magnet to the 944T disc inner side and the pick-up to the spindel. The digital speedo has a glue strip on it that I sticked to my tach, which is in the middle of my 03 dash instead of the original speedo. You simply measure the radius of the front tire and feed it to the bike 'computer' It has sevral functions like highest speed ever reached, average speed etc.
I now have digital accuracy :-) and can dispose of the original speedo, which I couldn't use any more anyway.
BTW highest speed has been 188.7 km/h... which was 5950 rpm with a 3,875 stock trans:D
Walter

[SprintStar]

The strut mount is larger? Meaning that even in a 944, the 951 items don't plug and play?

Sprint.

[Superman]

Sprint, yes the 951 top strut mount will fit the 944 but that does not concern us because we need to use the Super's upper strut (bearing) mount. The mount referred to was for the spindle to strut, not the strut to body.

Wally, yes I had the spindle drilled but your usage of the bicycle parts is interesting and intelligent. Good idea, I like it, but I want the OEM speedo so I had to do this.

[SprintStar]

So, if the strut to body mount is the same for the 944 and 951, it means we can adapt the strut to our '03s easily, right?

Hehe.... That being the case, I can rest easy. :)

As for the speedo, any possibility of rigging up a stock Porsche electronic speedo to our Bugs? I assume you need to right up the sender, that's all....

Sprint.

[Superman]

No, as stated in the original post of this thread this retrofit is not a simple bolt on nor is it easy. The Super upper strut bearing mount is not the same as the 944/951, the Porsche has 4 bolts and the Super has 3 bolts.

The 944/951 strut has a larger diameter spring than our Supers so they will not work. This has been covered in other posts, do a search. Yetibone has used a 944 strut with a Super spring but had to make some kind of clamp to hold the spring to the strut housing, which (in my opinion) is not safe.

There are 3 ways to mount 944 Turbo (951) brakes to a Super, all are listed above in the original post.

Start a new post about adapting the electric speedo because I have no info for you. I'll use the OEM Super speedo, so I have done no research on this subject nor have any interest to do so.

[SprintStar]

I understand about the Super's 3-bolt vs. the 944's 4-bolt. Can't we just transfer the strut mount over? I did it for my 944 brake conversion and it's a bolt-on. In fact, I bought the late '03 parts to fit it and in the end, I went with the ball-bearing mount of the earlier' 02 system. Fits good.

The 944 has a larger diameter spring? For which years? When I fit put on my 944 struts, I used the 944 springs, which I found to be too stiff and I swapped them out for a Beetle pair. NO difference in FIT and obvious difference in ride height and quality due to lesser spring rate.

Sprint.

[Superman]

The Porsche springs being too stiff would be an understatement, I mean that car is about 3,100 pounds as compared to the Beetle's 1,800 pounds. You guys really do some dangerous things and I fear someone is going to get hurt.

Check Yetibone's post as he attached a pic and it clearly shows the 944 spring to be about 5mm larger than the Super. You'll also see the clamp he had to make to hold the spring to the strut.

Keep in mind also that the 951 strut is not the same design as the 944, some even are welded and you can't change the insert. As said before, and again here, the 951 retrofit is not simple and easy like the 944 procedure.

Sure you went with the 1302 strut bearing because the bearings don't interchange between the late and early body.

[Superman]

I don't remember the thread, I'd have to search for it, which I will let you do on your own.

I don't need the pics, I've seen all this stuff before.

Yes, the 74-79 has a larger hole in the body for the larger bearing of the later suspension. So, yea you can put the smaller 71-73 early bearing in the larger hole of the later body and have a gap, but is that safe. Consquently, it is also true that the larger later bearing will not fit the smaller hole of the early body.

[SprintStar]

I don't know if it's safe to have a small gap, but looking at some modern Jap cars, it seems ok coz the strut mount doesn't even protrude out like ours, they remain flush with the strut tower...

What I was trying to say is despite body difference, the strut bearing will mount on the strut without any problem. Strut mount to strut tower clearance is a different problem. :D

Sprint.

[Superman]

Well that's why I prefer the close fit tolerance of German built cars ;)

I fully understand your desire to make this retrofit "easy" and "bolt on" but I assure you it's just not possible. I've researched this for the last 7 years ever since I seen the MBT 1303 when in Europe.

Sure, it might be able to be done with a gap here and a shim there but these small spaces can be the difference between a safe and fun to drive car or one that is, well you know.

As for me, I'm like Porsche when building my car, I demand excellence!

[SprintStar]

Excellance was expected.

I demand the best and accept no substitutes either. That's why I choose to use Porsche components in my Bug rather than the Cal-Look style of rear discs using Golf calipers. No offense to those who are well-engineered but I want the best, hence it's only natural to look to Porsche.

I'm hoping the brakes will be 'bolt-on' not just for ease of installation, but also maximium strenght and durability. If it's a hack-and-weld job, I won't feel good, hence I hope you can understand why I'm looking for bolt-on? :D

I hope you can help me with parts identification as I don't have a source for many Porsche 944 parts here, especially the later, more expensive, hence more exclusive and elusive 944s....

So, 1st question. Assuming I have an early 944, I can mount the entire set-up from a 951 with no problems? Top mount is the same? Bottom ball-joint is the same? If so, I think Houston, we don't have a problem. :D

2nd question. Are the 951 struts anything like the 944 items in which they accept shock inserts?

Thanks.

Sprint.

[Superman]

Not to sound rude but read and reread this thread, these questions have already been answered.

[Superman]

Okay, I have measured the springs and the Super is 4 5/8" (117mm) and the 944 is 4 13/16" (122mm). This small, but important, difference is about 5mm [these numbers were rounded up to the nearest whole number].

I still feel it is not wise to use the 944 strut housing, especially when the Super housing will bolt to the 944 spindle (not Turbo). This small space could cause the spring to pop off the strut all together while driving. Also, the Super spring will not seat into the 944 strut's notch which helps to stop the spring from moving when turning the steering wheel.

While I had the tape measure out I also got the numbers for the strut bearing hole in the body for late and early Supers. The hole in the late car is 95mm and the early is 84mm. Thus you can see how an early bearing would physically fit into the late hole, and although the bolt pattern is the same, I wouldn't feel comfortable with the 11mm difference. However, yes it is true that the early strut bearing mount will bolt on the late strut and vice-versa but these do not interchange in the body.

Now, with all the above said, [to SprintStar] I understand that the reasoning for your investigation was to use the 944 Turbo strut so that it would bolt to the Turbo spindle and then you would use the Super spring and strut bearing mount (as you had done with your 944NA brake conversion). So yes, you could do that and bolt it all up and in your mind it would be a "bolt on" and "easy" but that would be with a 5mm gap on the springs and I still stress that this is very unsafe and that a few millimeters on a spring or balljoint may not seem much to you but with suspension components it means a lot!!!

[Superman]

I found that Yetibone picture, it is a 944 strut housing with a Super spring. You'll see that the VW spring is 5mm too small for the Porsche housing's perch, note the clamp he made.

[yetibone]

Just so you know, 15k hard miles so far, and no spring problems. :)

[Superman]

I'm still firm as to NOT suggesting this be done (just for the safety record and my conscience). Let's not forget the ghetto ball joint sleeve mod and the rear bolt breakage of the coil-over rear shocks. These 11mm and 5mm gaps cause stress and that stress will go somewhere, now how long it will take to fail is unanswered (Space Shuttle O-ring for example). Just like Volksworld magazine printing their disclaimer because of the reports of failed components and many crashes, I say again that this is not safe.

I certainly wouldn't want to ride in a car for even 1 "hard" or "soft" mile when it's possible to go into a corner and the spring will pop off the strut housing and cause the car to loose steering and control. I wouldn't even test drive that car for you. Let's be wise with our modifications, this is the suspension and steering we're talking about here.

[yetibone]

Don't like that gap, dont ride in an American FWD car.

...and don't ride in a few Asian ones too.

[Superman]

Those cars were designed like that, to perform like that, with those components. What ever "gap" that Sprint was talking about was computer designed and OEM manufactured into that car's structure. Also, those are FWD cars and their struts mount in a completely different way than ours. It's not even the same concept.

We're talking about retrofitment of another car's parts to our car, there is not a comparison at all. This is no personal attack on you, it's just some advice to keep safe. It's obvious the 1303 spring does not seat into the 944 strut housing or you would not need that clamp to hold the spring. That clamp that could break off and that spring that could pop out, then you loose steering ability and crash into ? and at ? speed. It's your car, do as you wish, I wouldn't even feel safe just looking at it.

[Superman]

...and since you could/should have used the 1303 strut housing with your 944 conversion in the first place, that's what you NEED to replace those 944 housings with so the springs will fit correctly.

Don't be upset with me just because I don't want you to crash :cool:

[yetibone]

Don't be upset with me just because I don't want you to crash :cool:

...Then don't call me out, and say "here's an example of how not to do it" cross-post it to a thread i'm in, misteriously delete it, and then say "...don't take it as a personal attack..."

You have a very subjective way of not getting personal, and have done this more than once.

I appreciate your concern over my safety supe, but I'm a big boy now.

Good day.

[Superman]

Yeti, last year when Sprint and I had this "debate", you and I discussed by PM how you used the clamp on the spring and you told me about your picture and even said that I could use it as an example. I would never "call someone out", I'm not that kind of person. I'm fair, genuine and honest. If you want me to remove your picture and references to your personal screen name then I will edit the thread for your benefit but I will still be adamant about not using a 944 strut housing on a Super.

Now, as for the "cross-post it to a thread i'm in, misteriously delete it". I did post a reply in that "944 to 1303" thread and linked to this thread but then soon realized that this thread is for the 944 Turbo brakes and his post was for the 944 NA brakes; that is why I deleted my reply in that post, because it wasn't on topic about the same brake conversion. I don't do anything mysterious here, everything I do is logged and Admin can see my every move. I have nothing to hide.

I am here to help people and entertain myself while doing so. I'm sorry if my highly technical and well articulated posts seem rude sometimes, but I just get to the point. I do publicly apologize to you and the offer still stands to alter this thread with no references to you.

[yetibone]

I appreciate your offer to remove references within it, but I don't think that makes any difference now. I brushed it off when I first saw the thread over a year ago, and see no relevance in modifying it so long after.

I'm just about through with these forums anyway!

[Superman]

I'm just about through with these forums anyway!

That's what I didn't understand, why you got upset now after all this time. It was a year ago that post was made and when Sprint and I got into the debate over the spring issue it was you that sent me a PM about your picture and I asked for permission to post it. My intent was not to make you look bad but rather just to use that as an example so people can learn from it. I would not be so loud about it if this were a stereo install or not something so important to a person's life, but when dealing with suspension and steering we need to keep safety in mind first.

Now as to your quote, I hope you stay with us. You have a great looking car and your post are always helpful to others. You've been an asset to this forum.

[Superman]

I appreciate your concern over my safety supe, but I'm a big boy now.

Again, I didn't mean it too personal toward you. The greater concern is the fact that there are hundreds, perhaps even thousands, of people that are reading this and I don't want to give out the wrong information that could lead them into a crashed car as well.

[yetibone]

What upset me is seeing the link to this old thread in my inbox as a response to my post in the 1303/944 brake thread.

Doesn't that seem like a jab to you, if you observe this from my perspective?

Yes, when I read THIS thread last year, it pi$$ed me off that you would call me out like that, use the picture, say Yeti's way isn't safe, etc... but I said nothing. I didn't raise a fuss beacuse I didn't want a pi$$ing contest. You didn't state your intention, or reason for needing to see the pic, other than wanting to understand what I did, and I was none the wiser. I just let it go.

Seeing the link to THIS thread in my inbox, and finding the post in "944 brakes on 1303" thread it was within deleted, came across as a jab to me, and obviously brought back some of the anger I felt over a year ago.

I appreciate the appology, it's very kind of you to do that, but it doesn't matter to me now.

I'm outta here. Y'all have fun.

[Superman]

Again, I'm truly sorry it went down like this. I still feel bad about the debate with Sprint, but he didn't understand the whole idea of the fact that Porsche 944 Turbo brakes just will not bolt onto a 1302/1303.

This thread was started by me with the intent to help people install some brakes and in doing so I had to, in the replies, clear up a few facts of what will and will not work in this conversion. It was these facts that seemed to upset you and him but as I have said before I wouldn't be so harsh if it weren't dealing with the suspension and these dangerous modifications.

I'd like to close by saying that I never intended to piss anyone off and mean no foul or harm. However, I would rather piss off a few people then pass along wrong information to many that would lead them into installing the wrong parts and getting hurt as the end result of bad advice.

I would like to clear something up though, when I posted that reply in the "944 to 1303" and made a link to this thread it was a "call out" (as you say) to myself in reference to the first post of this thread with the information of how to install the brakes. The link was made to direct him toward some info on how to install the brakes and was not in any way placed to draw attention to you.

So now I too will part by saying... I'm outta here. Y'all have fun. :cool: :agree:

[beet]

hi, if I want mount 944T spindles, it will fit with kersher struts? or I must use porsche struts?

[sbeetle73]

I too have purchased the 86 turbo front and rear components. As we all know the rear is not an issue. The front setup obviously poses many issues. Although I believe I may have found a solution, especially if you plan to keep the 86 turbo sealed struts. Paragon products make a kit to turn the turbo sealed struts to removable insert types with koni adjustable units. Also a hight adjustable kit can be used to allow for height adjustment. The kit uses a 2.5 diameter spring. So I believe this might be a solution. I haven't purchased or attempted anything yet, just looking into viable solutions. This kit will allow for the use of porsche shocks, user selectable spring lengths and rates, provide for extra tire clearance, height adjustability, and obviously safety. Now if anyone could make caster/camber plates with integrated bearings for our cars, this would be one kicka** setup. Let me know what you guys think? Just trying to help.

[Supa Ninja]

sbeetle73, do you think you can link me to more info about that strut set-up. If the price is right it might be incentive for me to convert to 2 bolt struts. BTW, I was on the Paragon Products website and got lost on there. Thanks.

Nick

[MattKab]

This looks like a winner... :agree:

[Wally]

I think that is a very good solution! Like it. Hope the price is acceptable, so I may consider it too some day :)

Thanks for the pics and suggetion!

Walter

[randyj]

sbeetle73,

I looked into this a while back and I called and talked to Koni tech support about this option. They use to have a web page to show you how to do the converstion. The conversion requires you to cut the top of strut tube off after draining the fluid from the shock by drilling a small hole in the bottom of the strut. The old strut parts are removed and are replaced with a specific strut insert made by Koni. After you have the old strut parts removed, you enlarge the hole in the bottom of the strut tube to allow a bolt to be inserted (I don't remember the size). The bolt screwed into the bottom of the new strut insert is what holds the insert into the strut tube. This strut insert is made by Koni and is only made for this Porsche 944 conversion. The length of the strut insert is too long to be used in the VW Super Beetle. It is the same as if you try to use a regular Porsche 944 Turbo strut.

Another problem is that the walls of the 86 and greater 951 struts are too thin to cut threads into to allow you to place a cap on it to hold a VW rabbit strut insert in.

Ground Control will make you a new set of struts that will fit a Porsche 951 spindle for $700+ (this is a year old price) that will be height adjustable and use a VW rabbit shock and springs of your choice.

I have not yet decided if I will go with that option.

Still looking,
Randy ;)


I too have purchased the 86 turbo front and rear components. As we all know the rear is not an issue. The front setup obviously poses many issues. Although I believe I may have found a solution, especially if you plan to keep the 86 turbo sealed struts. Paragon products make a kit to turn the turbo sealed struts to removable insert types with koni adjustable units. Also a hight adjustable kit can be used to allow for height adjustment. The kit uses a 2.5 diameter spring. So I believe this might be a solution. I haven't purchased or attempted anything yet, just looking into viable solutions. This kit will allow for the use of porsche shocks, user selectable spring lengths and rates, provide for extra tire clearance, height adjustability, and obviously safety. Now if anyone could make caster/camber plates with integrated bearings for our cars, this would be one kicka** setup. Let me know what you guys think? Just trying to help.

[sbeetle73]

Thanks for the info, I was going to consider something from overseas but the euro is just way too strong compared to the canadian dollar, so it gets way too expensive, the ground control setup seems to be well priced. Anyone actualy have specs on the different type of shocks, length, rebounds etc, for orginal vw supebug 71-73 shocks, orginal vw supebug 74+ shocks, vw mk1 gti/rabbit insert, vw mk2 gti/golf insert, porsche n/a shock or koni equivalent and 86+ 944 turbo shocks. The following links provide explanations on the conversion of the porsche setup. Let me know what you think. Please note im only looking into possible solutions, im removing body from frame this weekend, so suspension is only on paper for now. Its amazing how any of this info (porsche brake conversion) wasn't available 2-3 years ago. Thanks

http://www.tech-session.com/kb/index.php?page=index_v2&id=69&c=4
http://www.tech-session.com/kb/index.php?page=index_v2&id=39&c=4

[Wally]

Good point Randy;
The only other possibility I could think of, is to use the struts of the most powerfull 944 Turbo's: The turbo Sport! : They have stock already height adjustable struts and Koni Yellow inserts!
The cost of a used set (if you cab find them) is still quite high, considering what you will still have to do with them (other springs for instance...

Thanks,
Walter

[randyj]

Here is another option to fit 944 Turbo Brembo calipers to VW Super Beetle spindles from VDub Customs in Canada. This was back in October of 2004 so check with them on prices.

Enjoy,
Randy :D



Understood. So basically, you want to bolt on the 951 brakes to your spindle. It's no problem. We can modify your hubs to fit the spindle, then fabricate a caliper bracket that would bolt into the original drum-backingplate holes. As an alternative, we can machine new billet hubs.

Option A (modify 951 hubs and caliper brackets) would set you back $C375.
Option B (billet hubs and brackets) would set you back $C875.

If you go with A, then I'd need your hubs and one caliper to work with (maybe also a disk if you have it). In B's case I'd still need a caliper towork with in order to start the fabrication/design.

I figure in both cases you'd have to afford a 0.15-0.3" offset increase per side.

Easy,
Lanner

[Wally]

Ground Control will make you a new set of struts that will fit a Porsche 951 spindle for $700+ (this is a year old price) that will be height adjustable and use a VW rabbit shock and springs of your choice.

Randy ;)
Randy,
Those will not be the front rabbit springs I hope? Rabbit rear springs should work very well tho, because of the smaller diameter and the lower spring rate.

Thanks,
Walter

[randyj]

Walter,

I am sorry, I didn't mean to imply that they used rabbit springs but you could if you wanted to. Ground Control will put new springs(Ebach I think) on the struts they build where you specify spring rate and length. I believe the ones that we were discussing were 2.5 inches in diameter.

Randy

Randy,
Those will not be the front rabbit springs I hope? Rabbit rear springs should work very well tho, because of the smaller diameter and the lower spring rate.

Thanks,
Walter