SACO hydraulic clutch

[Wally]

Hello,
I'am thinking of purchasing a SACO hydraulic set-up from www.vwispwest.com for my 915 box.
Is this company reliable and/or does anyone have any experience with this clutch set-up. They say its a bolt-in kit with master and slave cylinder plus all hydraulic hoses and connections. Of course some mods will probably have to be made for the connection to the 915 box.
Costs are $179,-- plus shipping. Since the dollar is quite low these days, the ease of such a set-up is tempting.
Walter

[Sandeep]

Walter,

I think Alex is running this type of setup ?

Sandeep

[Shad Laws]

Hello-

Hello,
I'am thinking of purchasing a SACO hydraulic set-up from www.vwispwest.com for my 915 box.
Is this company reliable

Yes. As Type 3 owners, Charles and I have done tons of business with them (they specialize in T3's). They are good folk.


and/or does anyone have any experience with this clutch set-up.

Yes. I have it on my 923 box (basically a 915) in my T3.


They say its a bolt-in kit with master and slave cylinder plus all hydraulic hoses and connections. Of course some mods will probably have to be made for the connection to the 915 box.
Costs are $179,-- plus shipping. Since the dollar is quite low these days, the ease of such a set-up is tempting.
Walter

It is a good quality kit, but it is designed for the T1, and definately needs some changes for the 915.

The master is fairly straightforward to install. One suggestion is that it might be easier to use two studs and nuts to install the master in the tunnel. Go to NAPA and get a pair of Ford exhaust manifold studs - they are M10, and have a small unthreaded portion right where you want it. You also may need to bend/grind parts of the clutch pedal stop(s) to get a little more pedal travel.

One major problem I had is clutch travel. The hydraulic clutch setup is designed to give just barely enough travel on a T1 to disengage the clutch. Remember that hydraulics are not a cure-all - leverage is still leverage, whether mechanical or hydraulic. So, it is because of this reduced slave travel that the master (i.e. pedal) feels less force.

This is a problem because the Porsche tranny needs a lot more travel than a T1 tranny! After messing around for awhile, I developed a setup that not only gives me enough travel, but also gives me a lot more ground clearance. The slave cylinder sits up on the right-hand side of the tranny. I welded a new loop to the clutch fork to put the slave's stud through (it was 2.25" from the pivot as opposed to the stock 5.5"). And, I flipped the whole clutch arm around upside-down - that's what gave me the added ground clearance.

I should take some pictures of this... it'd make a lot more sense that way :-).

Take care,

[Wally]

Hi Shad,
Thanks for the help and reassurance about ISPWest. I will probably get one and modify it as you described. I also need a front window rubber for my square, so I can get that as well in one package :-)

Your remark about taking a picture would be greatly appreciated, because 'welding a loop to the fork' doesn't ring a bell for me at this point (yet?). Also right hand side: Is that as seen from the front of the car?

Thanks,
Walter

[Shad Laws]

Hello-

Thanks for the help and reassurance about ISPWest. I will probably get one and modify it as you described. I also need a front window rubber for my square, so I can get that as well in one package :-)

Sounds good :-).

Your remark about taking a picture would be greatly appreciated,

I'll snap one within the week. I can't get to a digital camera right this sec... sorry... but in not too long!

because 'welding a loop to the fork' doesn't ring a bell for me at this point (yet?).

Probably a case of poor nomenclature by the guy who wrote it. Sheesh, what a moron... :-). Ignore what I said before, and I'll try again.

Basically speaking, the clutch _arm_ has two important features: a splined through-hole (the pivot point) and a fork (the attachment point of the clutch activation thing, whether it be a cable or a slave cylinder). I used the term 'loop' to describe a fork that didn't have an opening, i.e. went 360º around whatever it is attaching to (the cable or cylinder).

Now, there are three important things to note about these two features of the clutch arm. The first (and most important) is the center-to-center distance between them along the axis perpendicular to the axis of the splined hole. This is effectively the length of the lever arm used to operate the clutch, right? I'll call this the pivot length. My 923 clutch arm had this distance at about 5.5" although there are several variations of this arm for different applications, so YMMV.

The second thing is the vertical offset between the two. As stock, the fork is lower than the splined hole. While this is convenient if you are using Porsche's desired clutch cable location, you have a slave cylinder to fit, and a ground to watch out for!

The third thing is the direction of the fork. Porsche intended the fork to be used one way, so if you simply flip the clutch arm upside-down (just a circlip holds it in), the fork can no longer hold the clutch cable nut (or slave cylinder equivalent). This kinda sucks, because it'd be nice to flip the clutch arm around so you can position the slave cylinder far away from the ground.

Now, I quickly realized that there was no way I was going to get the travel I needed out of the slave cylinder to keep the clutch arm lever length at 5.5". So, I resolved to change it. Guess what I used for my 'loop?' A nut, of size 9/16" IIRC. I drilled out the center to get rid of the threads, and I was left with a nice, strong, and convenient little piece! I did some measuring, mocked it all up, ground a little bit away from my clutch arm, and welded on the nut at a center-to-center pivot length of 2.25". That over doubles the throw of my clutch arm. And it works!

I also chamfered the holes slightly. Because this loop is reversible, the third condition above goes away - it can be flipped around. Ground clearance is now not a problem.

To hold the other end of the slave cylinder in place, I used another nut modified as above welded to a piece of angle iron and bolted to a couple tranny case bolts.

Once you see the pics, this will all seem very simple, and you'll wonder why it took me so danged long to figure it all out. It was an absolute pain the first time, but now that I know what's needed, I think a second time would be a snap.

Also right hand side: Is that as seen from the front of the car?

Yes. The side opposite the tranny's side cover.

One more thing about the kit: I found that if you simply install the master cylinder as intended, the plastic fluid line wants to rub on the clutch pedal arm, and that's not good. Be sure to modify the system before installation to hold it out of the way.

Take care,

[Wally]

Thanks Shad,
It makes much more sense now. I love your self-irony tho.
I didn't know you had bought this set as well. Funny how we seem to like the same things and the solutions to the difficulties we come across...(type 3's, type 4 engines, T4 heads, Nickies, now this hydro clutch)
Thanks again for sharing your learning process, so we don't have to walk thesame difficult road.
Walter

[Wally]

Hello (again),
I thought to dig up an old topic, that now has become more actual for me:
I 'am trying to install the saco hydraulic clutch to my 915 trans.
I have fitted a type 4 short block with KEP flywheel and stock 915 clutch and pressure plate. Fits fine.

I the previous posts Shad told us about the clutch fork set-up, but he did it for his type 3 without transmission forks and with a Tangerine exhaust.
I will use a BAS exhaust and have the transmission forks on my 1303...(!)
So the mounting position he suggests above wll not work in my bug.
I have seen the Remmele set-up from a far picture: they mount the slave cylinder perpedicular to the length of the car, but how they get away with the room for the 90 degree turn of the clutch arm is beyond me.

Does anybody know how what the best way is to set-up the slave cylinder on a 915 trans in a bug?

Thanks,
Walter

[GS guy]

I'd also be interested in seeing how you'd fit the hydraulic slave cylinder to a 901 trans. Shad's explanation is a little confusing with regards to flipping the clutch arm upside down? Not sure I'm following the explanation here.

I've got a similar problem with a 914 trans. Low clutch actuator arm meaning the slave has to sit below the axle shaft/CV joint area. Problem is I'm going to have some frame members in this area and there might not be room for the slave too. I definitely know the reversing pulley and housing (from the 914 mid-engine set-up) has to go.

Anyone got pics of a working set-up? Pleeeeease??? :confused:

Jeff

[rip]

a couple of questions, I've heard many people using a solid line with this kit.

I had also heard that stock brake line will work; so what sort of adaptors were used to get it to work.

Also for anyone who has this in there bug how is the pedal travel?

Thanks

[rip]

Anyone got pics of a working set-up? Pleeeeease??? :confused:

Jeff


I seond that notion

[rip]

http://community.webshots.com/album/233555749GQyeIi

[rip]

http://image34.webshots.com/34/5/79/98/233557998sNLAED_ph.jpg

[rip]

anyone reconize this master cylinder? newer jetta perhaps? Maybe be just as easy to make one.


But, hows the travel with this kit?

[Wally]

But, hows the travel with this kit?
How do you want us to answer that? Fine? enough? x mm?
Probably fine/enough for a stock type 1 trans, where it is designed for, but not enough for a 915 trans; but thats what Shad explained and I did just that: shorten the clutch arm...
However, my self-made fixed point for the slave cylinder wasn't that good, so its not perfect yet.
I found the bracket for the master not really fitting well with bored holes of my pedal set/up tho... and I believe I have a leaky master already, which might or might not be due to the heavy pedal action of the 915 clutch...
So yes, it would be nice to know what model master was used in this kit.

Regards,
Walter

[rip]

thanks, hows the travel like compared to stock, with stock l'm able to have about a 1/2" before the clutch starts to disengage then an about 2" and the clutch is fully disengaged. So it doesn't take more than this. I'm wondering if you use this in a bug will the travel be more as if the pedal would have to move closer to the fire wall?

thanks again
rip

[Wally]

Don't know as I didn't see the neccesity to find out the exact differences at that time...
Sorry,
Walter

[rip]

wally thanks for the reply, did you at least use a metal line?

if so what does your setup look like? I mean what sort of flaring and threads are used? metric? and did it use a std flare or a bubble flare like the vw brake lines?

thanks
Rip

[GS guy]

Rip,
The CNC slave cylinder uses a pipe-thread on the cylinder itself, as I believe do most aftermarket mastercylinders. But I'm pretty sure it is delivered with an american flare adapter fitting already installed. Not sure about the particular MC in the SACO kit - never been able to find out exactly what or where it came from. You should definitely use a steel line from the MC back to near the slave, with a flexible hose section between steel line and slave since the slave moves each time you push the clutch. Be sure to secure the steel line at the transition to flexible, keep the hard line stationary. Adapter fittings are readily available so you could switch between types of fittings/hoses/flares just about anywhere you want, but for ease of assembly I'd stay with one or the other (as much as possible). There's also AN, which you may want to use for the flex line portion since various lengths of flexible AN SS hoses are also readily available and inexpensive. I've found the steel hard lines readily available in both metric/bubble and american flare in a variety of lengths at the local auto parts stores.
Just to give a "for instance", I was originally planning on plumbing my brake system using a Porsche MC, metric hard lines (that match the MC flare), then going to AN adapters, flexible AN SS hoses, then AN to pipe and finally into the pipe thread Wilwood calipers. For the rear line include another set of adapter fittings to run the proportioning valve - talk about adapter city!! Due to other changes I've since decided to to run a Wilwood balance bar brake pedal and dual MCs and keeping it all American and AN. Careful planning is the key.... :D
Jeff

[Wally]

wally thanks for the reply, did you at least use a metal line?

if so what does your setup look like? I mean what sort of flaring and threads are used? metric? and did it use a std flare or a bubble flare like the vw brake lines?

thanks
Rip
No, there are no metric things in that kit. But...our brake line over here are not metric either. I believe the lines are 3/16 " so the fittings for the plastic Saco line fitted snugly over my euro, steel 3/16" brake line :D

Regards,
Walter

[Bugged]

It would be really great to have those pictures up here again. I always get bummed out when I find a good thread but the pictures have been deleted. Anyway, thanks if ya do. Ok if ya don't.