What is your definition of the Germanlook style?

[Alex]

Let us hear what you think is considered GermanLook.

Is the the Porsche rims? !7" rims? Spoilers? Track car with no interior? Porsche brakes?

Would you consider a 67 with stock interior, chrome moldings and 17 inch Cup 2s a Germanlook style bug?

Alex

[vujade]

German Look to me is the utilization of modern parts on our cherished old VW's. This could mean parts from Porsche, VW, Mercedes & even the aftermarket. I dont believe it it just limited to Porsche parts like some believe.

I dont think it should be limited to just one style either, it could include stripped out track ready cars & also modern looking streeters too.

Lets not turn the German Look into the *cal look where we all have same retro look cars with BRM Rims, 135 Tires, turbo muffler & lowered more in the front then the rear!

*Nothing against the Cal Look personally, I have been a fan for many years since the early 80's. But as of recently it has turned a bunch of homogenized cars with basically the same setup with different paint jobs! I remember a time when cal look meant anything from mono tone paint jobs to graphic paint jobs & everything in between.

[Superman]

Monochromatic paint scheme
late model Porsche wheels (16" and up)
big brakes (944/951/911)

it's that basic to me but everyone can't have the same thing so certain aftermarket wheels to meet the grade

[Alex]

vujade,

I really like your reply. Germanlook for me is high tech. With what parts I achieve it I do not care. It is interesting to see what the Germanlook means to others. I was thinking about writting an article but honestly I can not do it. I think there are too many flavours to generalise. It is what the individual makes out of it.

Alex

[bren]

im with vujade 100% if i go by supermans definition, then my car doesnt fit into the germanlook or eurolook styles.. , but it features modern aftermarket rims, parts from modern vw's and a largely stock body..

[trevorbrady]

I guess mine is similar to Bren's.
The body is mostly stock (albeit stock pre '67, which isn't stock for my '73. Confused?) with blacked-out chrome bits.
I've got 17" modern aftermarket non-Porsche wheels, lowered all round, 4 wheel cross-drilled disk brakes (again, non-Porsche) uprated suspension, modern interior with bucket seats and harnesses. The only Porsche items on my car are the steering wheel and gauges. Soon to have IRS and maybe a roll cage if my insurance agrees...
Oh, stock 1600 motor too...

[Dan Zink]

I consider my car to be a "German Look" Bug.

Now - I've "only" got CB disc brakes, and I "still" have my chrome trim, and I have "overrider" bumpers, I have a pretty "stock" interior...

If this was the DKP or Cal-Look - I figure I'd be ostracized because it doesn't fit in "exactly" as described....

But - I do have a stompin' type4 motor with fuel injection/MSD and a knock sensor, and I "do" have 17" rims with wide tires......

I tell people it's German Look - or "Euro" look....whatever.

[Alex]

Hi Dan,

good to see you here. I agree with you. The funny thing is that some of the Callook cars could be considered GermanLook too. They use Fuchs rims. Looking at Keit Seume's book there was an Oval with Fuchs that was described as a Germanlooker.

Maybe it was becasue it was actually a bug in Germany
:hehehe:
It was owned by a German T1 tuner Welsch.

Alex

[lightning bug]

I would have to agree with vujade, Bren and Alex. I don't think it should be limited to Porsche parts. I guess we would have to call it "Porsche look" then. The way I see it is German/ Euro look is all about performance when you get down to it. Nothing like a well-engineered German automobile. I just hope we never see "Chevy look":toilet: Sheesh!

[Superman]

I agree with everyone. I mean each person has what they like and there is no way that any car will fit into just one "look". If we all did that it would be bland and boring.

Take me for example, I have a GTI engine in my car... what "look" is that? I have the 'one-piece' windows in my doors, so that's a bit of Callook in it... and so on.

In the early 80's the AMG company would take a baby-benz and put a huge motor in it, 17" wheels, and a mono scheme paint job... to me that was the pure beginning of the "Euro-look".
My Bug is basically this idealology but with a VW/Porsche based car. I don't use any other parts that don't come off a VW, Porsche, or Audi.

I tried to sumerize it above but I think Vujade did a better job with his statement, "German Look to me is the utilization of modern parts on our cherished old VW's".

Bren (I like your car and this is not a shot but an example), to me your car is not Germanlook. Your car, to me, is Callook with some Eurolook wheels. I don't consider anything other than (944 non-turbo at least) Porsche brakes to be euro or german "look". On that same note I'll be the first to admit that these brembo brakes are MAJOR overkill and the Type I (Ghia based) disc brakes are fine. My Dad's '66 'Vert (IRS pan with discs) stops on a dime.

When I started my "Super Volkswagens" site years ago and when Brian (STF owner) made me a forum for it I named it "Eurolook" due to the fact that Germanlook (even though that is what my car is/will be) is a nice style but if we conformed to that all our cars would look the same. Bren's car is a good example of "Eurolook" and a nice look. Back in the day Motor Trend magazine use to call the AMG cars the Eurolook style and that is where I got that term.

I guess my point is that none of our cars are just one certain look and we all define things differently. What one considers callook the other may call it eurolook, etc. Our cars each have their own style and individuality. Don't build your car to please a judge at a show or a group of peers. Make your car however you'd like and even make your own look or style!

[vujade]

Ive enjoyed everyones comments so far. It looks to me like everyone has similar views with there own personal twist. This is great! It should keep things progressing. I think this look has been a long time coming. I myself was wondering a few years ago when the VW scene was going to grow up so to speak. With all we've learned over the last thirty years technologically speaking, its just dont make sense to build our cars using old technology. To me, the german look is what the Cal Look should have evolved into, instead it stayed the same as it was 30 years ago!

just my 2 cents

[vert]

To me the Germanlook can be lots of things, i guess mainly 17's stock trim, type 4 motor and big brakes being Porsche or something else that is big enough to fill the wheels. On my own Cabrio its a dark metallic paint with color matched top, BIG type 4,
17" Porsche wheels, dash,brakes, suspension and recaro's with leather etc. Like Alex says, i too want my car to be as high tech and as modern as i can make it. Ofcourse everyone has different ideas what they would like for their car and at the end of the day everyone should be encouraged to build their car as they would like it to be.

[Superman]

Originally posted by vert

On my own Cabrio its a dark metallic paint with color matched top, BIG type 4, 17" Porsche wheels, dash,brakes, suspension and recaro's with leather etc.

Yea!!! Now that's what I'm talking about -- pure Germanlook

Here's another name I was thinking of...

Kafer-Cup look

Gutted interior with one fiberglass racer bucket.
Completely dechromed with flared fenders and airdam.
Brembos & 17"s or bigger
Battery in front... etc.

[vert]

Yep, a buddy of mine has a 1302 like that- totally stipped out exept racing seats. Fully painted inside, carbon door panels etc.
2.4 type 4, flared guards etc etc. He's actually mounted the battery in the front with an alloy X brace mounted also.:silly:

[petevw]

being different,
driven by technology,
thinking "outside the box"

[vujade]

Has anyone seen the new VWTrends, Setpember issue? I just got it yesterday & there is this feature called Chocolate Drop with a 57 Oval. I read the whole article & when I got to the last paragraph I couldnt belive what the writer for VWTrends had to say about the VW scene today (cal look)...

And I quote "...so many custom VW's are starting to look like clones: restricted by a certain 'look'."

from VWTrends, September 2002 pg48

[bugsoup]

I wonder if he would say that about a factory restoration... "Hey, that looks just like the cars that Volkswagen made. It's a clone."

In my opinion, the "look" that you are going for is just an expression of your tastes in cars. If it happens to look similar to someone else car, its because you like that look, not because you are trying to be just like that person. I see nothing wrong with adapting certain features for your use.

Does this writer have the same opinion of manufacturers that copy each other, and then make millions of those clones. One example is the similarities between the Honduh Accord and the Toyota Camry. They have looked like clones since they started production.

My last bit of sarcasm: "That Ford Taurus looks just like that Mercury Sable. That's not right."

[bugsoup]

By the way, if you want a good definition of GermanLook, just look at the categories on this forum: Engines, Transmissions, Brakes, Suspension, and Wheels and Tires. Its all about being a drivers car. No trailer queens.

[vujade]

well actually I believe the writer was correct in his opinions. THe cal look or resto custom or whatever else you want to call it, has become a very bland, carbon copy look. Everyone is running the same wheels, tire combos & exhaust. Only difference is the paint jobs.

I remember a time when the Cal Look produced many wild cars. Some with chrome bumbers, one piece windows & empi wheels, others with monochomatic paint jobs & custom wheels, & still others with radical mods (ie. sucide doors, chops, etc) & graphic paint jobs. the cal look kept changing & progressing until the 90's, then it reverted back to the 70's for some reason.

I dont think that you could limit the German/euro Look to just one set of rules! There are to many inovative things going on right in the automotive world to put a cap on things & say that this is the only way it can be done.

The possibilities are endless! :)

[bugsoup]

Good points. I do agree that most cal-look cars look very similar. Its hard to be different with a look thats had 40 years of trends. Although, the only distinguishing features of the car in the article are the billet wheels, strange pattern on the upholstery, and getting lucky with the paint blend. He still has the cheesy aluminum fender guards and poorly fitted running boards. To me, alot of the cal-look is looking good. The German Look is about going faster (although they seem to look good while doing it, but in a different way). GL is technology driven, while CL is bugdet driven (most of the time).

[Superman]

Trends is pushing the Callook is old and Germanlook is new idea to sell magazines. Hot VWs has very little GL content and Trends is using this as a marketing idea. They showed it when they printed one of my letters (bug mail or whatever) and they edited it to read "The VW Trends' Germanlook" when all I had said was Germanlook... as if they started it or something.

I haven't purchased a magazine since 1995 when I got online, but if I were it would be Volksworld.

[vujade]

well Ive always prefered Trends to HotVW's over the years anyways. I really hope that Trends starts getting behind the German/Euro Scene. It will only spark new interest in the VW scene.

[Superman]

Hey who needs them, we got this site now!
- just kidding

[bren]

Originally posted by Superman

Bren (I like your car and this is not a shot but an example), to me your car is not Germanlook. Your car, to me, is Callook with some Eurolook wheels.

LOL!!! this is a first! cal look?!? my bug has never been called THAT before!!!


funny!!

what do the rest of you reckon? cal-look or german-look or euro-look? (mines the blue one BTW!

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid25/p4fb8bb7719ec0bd315ac5958ac83821d/fd8ea1c6.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid25/pa78d0d931f6404090dfee780ef14ea6a/fd8ea1c5.jpg


superman.. dont get me wrong this is no attack, i just dont understand where you are coming from? i mean where do you draw the line with the porsche stuff? my friends bug runs 4-wheel kerscher discs with reproduction porsche cup3's... so in actual fact, no porsche parts bar the boxster seats and 911 headlamp lenses, it also runs more chrome than when it left the factory, but does that mean its not a GL?
pic of unfinished car:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid25/padd893d5be1ef8441fc61af5d18a161e/fd8b8aa2.jpg

[Superman]

Well from the pictures I've seen, and I may be wrong, your car has all the factory body chrome trim and Type I (Ghia) brakes. The wheels are the only thing that sets it apart. Slap some Empi wheels on it and it would be a Cal-look car.

The grey car is doing a little better with the europa bumper and bucket seats but still not all the way.

(Remember this is just my opinion) These cars, you posted, are a mixture of Callook and Germanlook... that's what I call Eurolook. It's just my opinion and terms that I use.

(Again in my opinion) Your car would need 944 discs, Recaro type seats, europa bumper, and no trim, blacked-out trim, or body colored trim to be Germanlook.

This is what I consider Germanlook...

http://www.superbeetlesonly.com/gallery/ja1.jpg

[Superman]

i mean where do you draw the line with the porsche stuff?

Correct, that is exactly what I had posted before, if all our cars had the same Porsche wheels it would be bland. It guess Porsche wheels = Germanlook and others (not Empi stuff but like on your car) = Eurolook.

If I've offend anyone just put it all in the :toilet: these are just my opinions.

My car is in thousand of pieces, boxes, parts, and bits... what look is that :(

[Dan Zink]

I can live with euro look :)

Jus' so long as it ain't cal-look...I couldn't take that...:)

Dan

p.s. - and that's no slam to the cal-lookers !! it's just not what "I" want.

[vert]

Originally posted by Superman

Well from the pictures I've seen, and I may be wrong, your car has all the factory body chrome trim and Type I (Ghia) brakes. The wheels are the only thing that sets it apart. Slap some Empi wheels on it and it would be a Cal-look car.

The grey car is doing a little better with the europa bumper and bucket seats but still not all the way.

(Remember this is just my opinion) These cars, you posted, are a mixture of Callook and Germanlook... that's what I call Eurolook. It's just my opinion and terms that I use.

(Again in my opinion) Your car would need 944 discs, Recaro type seats, europa bumper, and no trim, blacked-out trim, or body colored trim to be Germanlook.

This is what I consider Germanlook...

http://www.superbeetlesonly.com/gallery/ja1.jpg

Hey thats my car!!! where did you get pics of it ????? OH, oops wrong color LOL. Looks just like mine tho.

[bren]

Originally posted by Superman

(Again in my opinion) Your car would need 944 discs, Recaro type seats, europa bumper, and no trim, blacked-out trim, or body colored trim to be Germanlook.

944 discs would never happen, i cant justify the expense for a totally over engineered brake setup for a 1600 bug! the other main reason is that i want to keep the 4x100 PCD. seats in my bug are POLO GT seats front and rear.. almost identical to golf GTI's but with a narrower rear seat. europa bumpers i already have?!?!?! or do you mean the 74-on bumpers with the indicators built in? i thought about using those, but decided not to as my front end was very very low when i first built the car.. its since been raised, but when it was low, the indicators in the bumper would have been too low to pass the MOT test.. they basically would have been illegal! as for the trim... funny you should mention that! ive just sourced a bumper from a jeans bug, and as im sure you know, they had satin black trim... ive also got some indicator covers that im prepping for paint.. again in satin black.. and the side trim will also be going black.... all this should be done in readiness for the VWACTION show in september, so ill take some pics while im there and post them up.. see what you all reckon....

[Superman]

Yes I mean the 74 & up bumper. Cool beans on the black trim, it's gonna look so good I think. Nice seats, I seen your car in a friend's Volksworld but didn't notice them. I understand about the turn signals... damn law (MOT)!

http://www.germanlook.org/forums/images/icons/icon5.gif

One thing I wondered, how does everyone feel about my CCC Porsche 911 Carrera style Whailtail... is that Germanlook?

[Rae Sevilla]

First of all im from Manila,Philippines. For me germanlook/eurolook is a new trend in our vw industry that may not be compared to other looks,its a way of upgrading our vw's to a stage were even some of the newer cars cannot compete,but it doesn't have to be porsche parts,all we need is to use new aftermarket/highformance parts that can make our selves proud and individualise our vw's.

Right now I have a 1302s that I have for 4 yrs. its my first vw and I want it to be my only vw,and I already painted the bumpers,and will start to modify the front suspension to accomodate smaller coilspring so that I can install a BBS/TSW 17's hope to hane a type 4 engine, but thats way to far,but I love the look and hope to make my superbeetle a looker in our country.

My friends have a sight we all love modifying and into euro/germanlook some of our fellow enthusiast doesn't understand our passion to germanlook but soon they will.
This is our website:www.also.as/vwfreak.com tnx for a very nice site,its a good help.


RAE NOEL SEVILLA
vw 1302-s '72

[MattKab]

To me, Germanlook and Eurolook are two different things. Both similar. Germanlook is a Vdub term and there is talk of Eurolook cars in Maxpower and the like.

I agree with all that's been posted about Callook, nuf said.

To me, the epitome of why we are all here is a car with proven performance developement. Next generation aircooling.

What we do is different. Although extreme, it should appear natural. I like to think my mod's look factory. Don't get me wrong, I'd love a full-on Kafer-cuf monster, but 1 thing at a time.

My Bug is an ex. Cali '79 Karmann, Orig. Lemongelb but now Porsche 'Pastel yellow'. Black roof. Now RHD. Full chrome inc. original s/s rear fender stone chippies, 17" Cup2's 215/40 and 225/45 Goodyear eagle F1's. red 944 Brembo 4pots allround. Huge chrome 'impact' bumpers. Kerscher single coil struts, F+R anti-roll bars. Black/grey Recaro's, VDO's in Kamei pod and Blaupunkt.

Stock FI engine with stainless, single tail pipe exhaust and stock 3.88 trans. Under developement: 2.4 TypeIV with 914 heads, 915 trans. and a 1776 K-jet rebuild for current motor. Good heater!

I consider this to be the base for the ultimate beetle experience, Lower centroid, arguably stiffer, rack and pinion steering (2.3 turns lock to lock)

Personally, I've never called it germanlook or anything! It's a happy little yellow Beetle. May I add, we feel right at home on this site.

What would you call it? Do you approve?

http://www.hpphoto.com/rs/C94B567B-7AFF-11D6-B42B-0090277A760E/screen

http://www.hpphoto.com/opx-bin/OpxFIDISA.dll?src%3D/rs/342ADAD9-7C9D-11D6-B42B-0090277A760E/orig%2C0%2C0%2C1%2C1%2C400%2C%2Cffffff%2C90%2C0

[MattKab]

http://www.hpphoto.com/opx-bin/OpxFIDISA.dll?src%3D/rs/43F7B8C0-A1DB-11D6-B42C-0090277A760E/orig%2C0%2C0%2C1%2C1%2C400%2C%2Cffffff%2C90%2C0

[SilverBullet]

:)
Germanlook: Exterior: 1303 body, 20mm front,40mm rear widen fenders, Porsche rims minimum 16', Porsche brakes, coilovers, brace bars front n rear, black trims, paint:black,grey or silver, bonnet better to be the cabrio ones, it looks better than the sedan bonnet, kamei front spoiler cutout center for oil-cooler, Europa bumpers with clear lens signals, Remmele roof spoiler, blacken handles.
Interior: Modified dash for 3 Porsche gauges, leather Recaro/Porsche seats, 911 rear view mirror, Prefer a larger diameter steering ie: Porsche, to view gauges as momo ones are pretty small n blocks the view of gauges, rear seats modified to 911 style, dark interior.
Engine: T4 with the works!:)

[NYBugman1972]

Germanlook is, to me, the modernization of an air-cooled VW.

Large wheels (porsche or not), upgraded brakes (porsche or not), upgraded suspention, cruising oriented tranny, good tires, clean paintjob (chrome is optional), clean interior. It's all about the total package. It's not about the speed, its about the attitude. I like mine with more of a road-friendly (comfortable, I call it orientation, like an actual interior, built for cruising. That's about it.

My definition is pretty open. I'm not going count a car out for still running drums in the rear (like me or Brian "Phat73vw"), or for having a stock or small displacement engine (Trevor Brady). It's about attitude. Who can deny the sheer attitude of Brian's or Trevor's cars?

[lightning bug]

Originally posted by NYBugman1972

Germanlook is, to me, the modernization of an air-cooled VW.

Large wheels (porsche or not), upgraded brakes (porsche or not), upgraded suspention, cruising oriented tranny, good tires, clean paintjob (chrome is optional), clean interior. It's all about the total package. It's not about the speed, its about the attitude. I like mine with more of a road-friendly (comfortable, I call it orientation, like an actual interior, built for cruising. That's about it.

My definition is pretty open. I'm not going count a car out for still running drums in the rear (like me or Brian "Phat73vw"), or for having a stock or small displacement engine (Trevor Brady). It's about attitude. Who can deny the sheer attitude of Brian's or Trevor's cars?
Well said! Also, I don't think something like wheel size should matter. I think alot of people are thinking along the lines of Porsche look. Again, I see GL as a tuning thing more than a look. I mean look at the watercooled VW's. They are starting to go more for function rather than flashy styling. (finally) We're starting to see them with smaller diameter wheels, less body kits and they are giving more attention where it should be given. TUNING! Are these still considered GL? I know we're talking air-cooled, but it still follows the same "guidelines" I guess you could say. I'll say it again. There is alot we can do with this style. It shouldn't be limited too much as just to Porsche parts or "no interior". Everyone's cars are going to look the same just with a different paint job. My car will have a full interior. I don't want it to look like I'm gonna blow your doors off. I want it be as embarrasing as possible for the guy I'm racing and still be a joy to drive. And I definitely will consider my car GL. But "no interior" is GL also. Why not? All I'm saying is that it shouldn't be as limited as the GL cars will start to look like clones just with different paint.

[Chris Percival]

Brens bug is a German Look bug, but with a British Twist: Its subtle. Its definitely not Call-look, first because of the wheels, but then there is the level stance, and the fact that he has built it to go round corners well..

For me Eurolook is everything that isn't Call-look (which still dominates), there isn't much else. Also Eurolook is a term used to encompass lots of different styles, pure German Look, French Look, Brit-look etc.

Chris

[jakriz]

I think that my little superbug is German Look, or it may be even called Aussie Look? It has a little bit of everything. Porsche wheels, Porsche wing, Porsche seats (Fixed Cobara seat for the track) Porsche & Autometer guages, 'little' 1880cc motor, full carpet & soundproofing, roll cage, Stereo & speakers etc. I couldn't drive around in a car that had no interior or soundproofing, I think that I would lose my enjoyment for driving very quickly.
So I consider my car to be German Look, Aussie Look & a bit of race look.
But I really don't think that we should start laying down any strict guidelines such as pastal paint or no chrome etc, as I painted my car metallic Purple 9 years ago & I have no intention of changing it guys!
If we have rules & guidelines we will be just like the Cal-lookers are 25 years down the track! Drum brakes, swing axle & a nose down stance with 135 tyres on the front! PLeeeeaaase, what century is it?
Stay Cool
Jak Rizzo
Australia
Ps I couldn't get it to post a pic of my car so u will have to do with a link that James has setup for me
http://www.superbeetlesonly.com/motorsports/jak/jak7023.jpg

[zen]

the neverending need for humans to classify everything never ceases to amaze me. i battle this same issue in my music career. everyone needs to put everything in a box. i think when you look over everyone's comments on this thread you have what the GL is about. it is about all of them, just tends to be regionalized. mine is becoming a mixture of vw/porsche with a healthy dose of momo. what does that make it? still a vw that is only going to be admired by other vw enthusiasts. if we get rigid with "rules" about the look, that is just how we will be viewed "rigid". everyone has been slighting the cal-look guys, for what...being rigid.

share and enjoy each others rides. i do. and i "will" if i ever finish my damn car.

[Superman]

What would you call it? Do you approve?

I call it a good looking car :D

[vujade]

What it all boils down to is people in general want to be part of something bigger then themselves. They want to be part of a group of like minded people (thats why we have clubs, organizations, & even churchs)

It all begins when a few like minded people get together, they lay down a set of rules & regulations & then everyone in the group has to adhere to them (*see footnote). If they dont do this, when new people want to be part of the group, it will be contaminated by those that think differently, this will cause those in the group to guestion their own thinking. And they wouldnt want that! No, most people dont want to think for themselves, they would rather be told what to think. Most people are followers, not leaders.



*Just look at clubs like DKPIII (nothing personal against DKPIII) for example, they are so rigid its not even funny! Doesn't this take away your individualism? Doesn't this lead to boredom? Doesn't this make things become stagnant?

Innovate, dont imitate!

[vujade]

woops! :)

[Pepper]

Hello im a new guy here, graet forum


I recently had the family 74 supper passed down to me, It in great condition except for the motor. I’m in the process of putting a 1984 Mazda 12A in it . I’ve bin trying to decide on the style and color that I would like when I ran across a picture of a “German look” bug, it blew me away that was the look I wanted…BUTT I love the chrome look of the “retro” and so “cals”. Than one day I came across a picture of a “chromed german look” it has a classic look to it, I instantly fell in love with it. It still has the European look to it, and its chromed! I think the german look is a great style, and is very flexible

http://www.boomspeed.com/pepper50cal/vw0801ex_german16.jpg

[Superman]

Rear view of same car:

http://www.boomspeed.com/pepper50cal/vw0801ex_german18.jpg

[trevorbrady]

Originally posted by NYBugman1972

Germanlook is, to me, the modernization of an air-cooled VW.

Large wheels (porsche or not), upgraded brakes (porsche or not), upgraded suspention, cruising oriented tranny, good tires, clean paintjob (chrome is optional), clean interior. It's all about the total package. It's not about the speed, its about the attitude. I like mine with more of a road-friendly (comfortable, I call it orientation, like an actual interior, built for cruising. That's about it.

My definition is pretty open. I'm not going count a car out for still running drums in the rear (like me or Brian "Phat73vw"), or for having a stock or small displacement engine (Trevor Brady). It's about attitude. Who can deny the sheer attitude of Brian's or Trevor's cars?

HaHa! Thanks Mike! I never considered my little bug as having 'attitude'!
For me it's just the way I want it. If you look through the old pages of my website (which is due an overhaul and move to a new service provider) I had initially intended for loads of Porsche gear, but as Bren noted, I can't justify the expense of Porsche brakes, type 4 engine conversion and carbon fibre parts for my bug, at least not at the moment.
Everything on the car is down to my personal taste, from the black wheels to the Porsche gauges. I have received mixed reactions from people about the choice of wheels and their colour, but I don't care. I'm happy with it.
I know I've always called my bug a German Looker. I'm not so sure I want to classify it anymore.

Can I start the 'Irish Look' here and now? ;) :p
Just kiddin!

[Superman]

Originally posted by trevorbrady

I have received mixed reactions from people about the choice of wheels and their colour, but I don't care. I'm happy with it.

and that's all that matters

[WipEout]

Originally posted by Superman
One thing I wondered, how does everyone feel about my CCC Porsche 911 Carrera style Whailtail... is that Germanlook? [/B]

Just so long as you don't have ferrari style "vented" fenders, a la Mulholland Look, you'll be alright. As for the different "looks" to these cars, I've gone more in the direction of function over form. T-4 engine, kaefer-kup braces, 80mm front struts (Topline), tuner wheels, etc etc. I'm gonna paint it monochrome Maroon(maybe?), only because I can't afford any sort of graphics or detailing, and I'm sure as hell not going with big vinyl stickers all over the car like the ricers around here do. I don't like calling the German Look "German Look," it's more Porsche performance to me. The "Euro" or "French" looks are straigh tout Tuner performance to me, with the tuner wheels, Hi-Po motors, extravagant paintjobs, and all. If Fast and the Furious were about Bugs, Euro/French-look VWs would be the basis for the movie, not Supras and S2000s... All in all the look of your car is YOUR look. You can try to generalise you VW if you want to, but your individuality will always seep through somehow, thus segregating your car from the norm...

I'm sure all this has been said before, but I had to state my ideas, too, not being one who likes to be left out of the conversation... :)


DAVID MANN

[airwerks]

I would hate to see germanlook have such rigid parameter's as cal look. Don't get me wrong, I love cal look-except for for all the "rules". If we say porsche stuff only, the segment is just going to turn into all the cars looking the same-exactly what gets annoying with cal-look.

I figure my project as german look, and there isn't a porsche part on it. Brakes are off a Dodge stratus and wheels are 17" chrome momo's- body will have all fact. chrome. To me german look is just about making an old car more updated with wheels/tires/trans/
engine/suspension.

just rambling. :rolleyes:

[vwman1]

Can any body tell me where I can find pictures/more info on that cool looking Purple Super Beetle (1303) featured on the back inside page of every Volksworld issue in the HIC insurance ad, for the last 7 months? Thanks

Chas

[Alex]

It was covered in the Volksworld mag in April 2001.
I do not have a scanner. Sorry.

Alex

[vwman1]

Thanks,

[Chris Percival]

That purple 03 is my favourite German looker....

[Jeannot]

Just got my copy of the Summer issue of "Volksworld". A gorgeous looking "Euro Looker" is on the cover and warrants four pages. The car is an 1982. The owner lives in Holland. The articles author states that:
"Both German-Look and Euro-Look cars are externally very similar, but we use the term German Look to describe equally impressive underpinnings. If a car looks the part but doesn't have the big Type 4 motor or Porsche gearbox and brake conversions, we refer to it as a Euro-Looker. SImple, huh?"

Sueme, in his piece in the same issue refers to the GL as "... you know, big Porsche wheels, four wheel discs and a big Type 4 engine ..."

By the way the car has a little Remmele type roofspoiler courtesy of Franky's VW Services.

Jeannot:)

[Andy]

That was interesting reading...

I do not think that there is a written statement of what a German Look Beetle should look like, if there was all GL Beetles that matched the German Look would look more or less the same.

As far as I am aware, German Look was a term cooked up by Volks World after seeing this type of car at the shows on the continent. Correct me if I am wrong.

All beetles are individual, and I think all the cars that have been mentioned have that "German Look" slant. This is why we are all on this site! The individuality makes our cars interesting, and opens up discussion like this. The only German Look ones that I perhaps question are the pre 1967. But this is my opinion.

Im my opinion the best Geramn Look is a late model ('70s), perferably a '03 with modern big wheels (not 17inch BRMs) with wide lower profile tyres, and colour coded bumpers, tinted windows, high performance type 4 out the back and a BAS exhaust and a oil cooler under a vented front valance, roll cage, modern interior with lots of carbon, lack of chrome, and all trim colour coded, braced under the bonnect, lightened and drilled where appropriate, uprated supsension and roll bars, five speed box, limited slip diff, etc, etc...

I think the idea of the German look is the look of the Kafer-cup cars, and most of these modifications were done to make the cars more competetive.

I would descibe my car as a type of German Look, but I am going to have a large type 1 out the back, instead of the favoured type 4, and it will have a Turbo Muffler, which is more Cal look. This is more due to budget etc..

I have all the trim, some is left in Chrome, quarter lights etc. But I still think mine is GL, it is defo not Cal Look.

Let me know what you think

[Philippe]

Nicely put, Andy.

I think that germanlook is simply a non-traditional approach to aircooled VW performance. We're modernizing our cars to perform in all aspects of driving. It's not just the going fast, it's the stopping fast and the cornering fast. Callook cars can't really touch us when it comes to spanking that curvy stretch of mountain road.

And I strongly agree that the GL is best suited for late model VWs. Late models have the best performing suspensions, lend themselves better to the modern styling of the equipment we use on our cars, and they also have the best visability through the larger windows.


I would think it would suck to look up at my mirror and see mostly headliner and a little oval of road behind me. I'm not trying to bash early model GLs because they can pull it off like no one's business. Anyone else see that turbo-ed oval GL at the last sac. bug o rama?

check it out here (http://thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/33166.jpg)

Anyway this is all opinion. I just think it's about performance, not the size of the rims and the name on the brakes. The only thing I would say you would HAVE to have to have a GL would be low profile tires.

All this from a guy who's planning a type 4 engine, single pot 944 brakes and big porsche alloys. Sounds traditional GL- except that I have a full interior, a nice stereo, and all of my trim intact.

[vwman1]

Can anybody tell me where I can find out more info on that BLACK '82 Mexican bug that was featured in the Jan '01 Super VW magazine as well as the the June '02 VWtrends? I like his Remelle rear spoiler the best. Clean and nest. I really like the black German-look bug. That bug got me started on this information search.

[kdanie]

Ok, I've been watching this thread for a while and decided to throw my two cents in....for what it's worth (probably less than 2 cents).
German Look/Euro look, the name means little to me. I like the no rules, go for the performance concept. I think Jak has that one down!
Here's my project that is a little more than half done:
'68 irs beetle, chrome strips removed, stock steel fenders, '73 tail lights (the flat ones, no not the clear ones!), front turn signals removed/filled, H4 headlights with driving lights and turn signals built in. Early euro blade bumpers because they are cleaner and less bulky.
902 Porsche 5 speed, I just screwed an old Hurst "T" handle on it (I miss my old muscle cars)!! That should mess up someones preconceived notions!
2.0L type 4 with 911 cooling, 10-1 compression, custom cam, many high tech coatings used in and on the engine, engine is built, I am currently building a header for it.
944 disk brakes, early, easy to mount, if I need more I will call Wilwood and go for the big stuff.
'82 911 SC seats
914 tach in the speedo hole
912 speedo in speaker panel
VDO ****pit gages to cover the other vitals
912 steel wheels/hubcaps with 195s in front and 205s rear
Looking at it you may think it is a Callook until you step closer and see what is really under the skin.
I'm about a year longer than I thought but still under the $6000 budget (until paint). I am fortunate to be able to do all the work myself (except engine machine work).
Things I'm thinking about-full roll cage, 1" sway bar to fit my 2" narrowed beam, racing buckets, OOPS there goes the budget!
To be quite blunt-if GL goes the way of Callook with rules, it will become the same boring cookie cutter type cars (I think that dead horse is starting to smell!).
Looks can be deceiving,
ken

[Andy]

Originally posted by kdanie

914 tach in the speedo hole
912 speedo in speaker panel
VDO ****pit gages to cover the other vitals


I like that idea! my dash is a padded 1303 dash, with the make believe wood, but I assume that the 944 tacho would go in ok. Is it a fairly easy mod?

But where the hell could I put the speedo? all other gauges are at present in a tunnel mounted console, would like to move them upto eye height, but where?

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

[kdanie]

Andy, I've never seen a 1303 dash in person so I can't be much help. Both my type 1s are '68 standards, one swing axle one IRS. I'm sure some of the forum members would be willing to post pictures of thier dash set ups.
ken

[Chris Percival]

Andy, you either have to mount it above or below the dash, or mod the dash to accept the tacho. The dash is made of metal (under the foam). Heres how to mod the dash to accept for dials:

- Remove the foam from the dash, best remove the whole dash to do this.
- Cut off the speedo housing, and surrounding area.
- Create a new dial pod out of aluminium sheet, hows about a nice curve following the curve of the steering wheel? Or a 911 style dash?
- Fix the new pod to the dash with rivets, or nuts and bolts.
- Fix in a plate to hold your new dials.
- Paint the whole dash in matt black or body color, or how's about carbon look stick on film? Or get it trimmed in leather!

Chris

[vujade]

as much as I like a center mounted tach, I really dont see it when I really need it the most....it would be far better on top of the dash, more at eye level.... just my 2 cents

[lightning bug]

My tach is also mounted in the center. However...... it has been proven that the eye reacts faster when moved side-to-side rather than up and down. This is why Toyota mounted the guages atop the dash in the Echo. It might be better for vision atop the dash. Also, FWIW, the eye also reacts faster to different color lights. This is why VW uses blue dash lights in the MK4's, so I've heard.

[Supa Ninja]

My Supa is on its way to being a German Looker, I just installed a set of Maxx struts , I have set of Suzuki Sprint GTI seats and I'm working on getting a couple of Type IV engines, Porsche tranny, 944 discs, and 17's. I am a little burnt out on the cal look . Philippe I did see the GL oval and it was a very nice piece. German look to me is taking my 30 year old Volkswagen changing and modifing it so that it "drives" better, in the process it may end up performing better than most of the cars on the road today. I won't call my Supa a eurolook cause thats what all those honda cars call themselves.

MACL

[Superman]

They should call the rice burners Asialook :silly:

[lightning bug]

What's Euro about 12 tier wings and illuminated windshield washer squirters? Don't forget the graphics--- always a power adder.:silly:

[NYBugman1972]

My dash has that setup! 914 tach in speedo hole. 914 speedo in speaker hole. 5 VDO's, 2 opposite from the speedo and 3 in the radio hole. Carbon Joe custom blue panels and glove box door overlay. It all went together pretty easily. And I retained my dashpad.

I do have a 1302, though. Pics are in my Yahoo album. http://photos.yahoo.com/mikes72sb

[Eurolook71]

Hey Mike I was curious, where DID you get the 1302S emblem?!!?

I NEED one!!!

[lightning bug]

There's a 1302LS badge on German Ebay now.

[NYBugman1972]

Exactly. www.ebay.de Got it for somethng like $10-$15 shipping. It took a little while for checks to clear and communications, but it's easier than finding one stateside, and probably cheaper.

[cre8iv1]

what does that badge look like...any pics?

[NYBugman1972]

http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/7a03326/bc/My+Photos/1302s.jpg?bc5VTu9Ak2YxVzIx

there you go!

[Andy White]

Look at any of the German factory built cars in the last decade, Porsche, VW, BMW, Mercedes, and you will see that they are all purposeful, very well engineered, technically advanced and clean in their design.

Also look at the German laws. TUV would never pass a bug running pathetic 135's stretched over a 6.5j rim. They'd also never pass a 2ltr bug with drum brakes. If you have a true GL it'd pass the TUV laws. No solenoid doors. No skimpy tyres. No big engines without uprated discs all-round. No stingers. etc. etc.

My bug has some very heavy bodymods, along with many subtle ones. The overall look is extremely clean and subtle without compromising safety or purpose. It doesn't have fat arches, spoilers or scoops.

Is it a German Looker? I think so. It's going to be fast without compromising safety, it's well engineered, purposeful and a damn site better than when it left the factory in 1955.

[Supa Ninja]

I am a bit hooked on this site. There is so much information for my little brain to absorb. I've learned a great deal on what is a very new look in the Northern Cali area. I am also liking all the advice from Germany, England, Austrailia, Canada, and Ireland. It is a very cool that we have an international thing here, and that there is a lot of helping of each other out. Thats what our industry is all about.
The German Look is the next level of evolution for our beloved Volkswagens. This is the modern day version of when the Cal Look started in the late 60's and early 70's and the Volkwagen was the 'Giant Killer' on the drag strip now our little monsters will be ruling the realm of the ciruit racing , the street, or anywhere else we decide to go. And unlike the Cal Look which is very locked on what you can and can't do, the German Look has a very open minded approach to making speed, do whatever you have to do to go fast and look good while doing it.
Kids are going to see our rides that are 'wolves in sheep clothing', and not want a honda like every other teenager has, they will want to be different, they will want a GL VW, and the Beetle will continue to be Immortal, cause rice burners are just a fad and fads die.

[Eurolook71]

I'm totally with ya on that Supa, this site is completely off the hook! I wish I had my 71' here with me, but had to leave up in Idaho cause it dropped a valve, and wanted to leave asap. I want another bug...but dang...I want MY bug!!

Anyways. I love how this new look is really starting to let the bugs (any a/c VW for that matter!) potential really show, like it has so many times in the past, just this time, it's OUR look, not some look that has been done over and over (and over) since the early 70s (cal-look/resto-custom). Even though this look has been done for a while in the UK, Germany, France, Australia, etc...its time this look hit the US, and man did it hit hard!

I really like how this new "look" has soooooo many exceptions, and not as strict like many cal-look clubs. I mean, I really like a standard, riding on 17" turbo twists, to a Super done up kafer-cup style, with fender flares, and deep dish BBS racing wheels, its ENDLESS!!!!!

Thanks everyone that has contributed to making/designing/maintaining this website. You ROCK!!

[Pillow]

So much good input already! Let me just throw in a little bit. Granted these are all opinions and I think our Euro scene is so "fresh" it is kind of hard to put definitions around it yet.

First off I think there is a definite distinction between Cal, Euro, German, Rice, and Cup looks. Let me breakdown my view for each one.

German Look: First off CLEAN, like Andy said. I venture to say minimum chrome, mono tone paint (preferably a Glasurit Porsche color, some colors period specific to go with the components you are running), Porsche brakes, Porsche wheels, Porsche Tach (preferably center mount as in a 911/4), any other Porsche guages you can fit in as well that look classy. The interior gets dicey, but Porsche/Recaro seats would be a plus. T1 or T4 engine with 911 shroud, of course. No fiberglass or carbon fiber (as in a real Porsche would be)

EuroLook: Big discs, Euro wheels (non-porsche), carbon fiber, Beetle rear lights (seems common part these days), non-stock seats, no chrome. Pearl paint jobs like on the Audis or other high tech paints. Big T4 motor. Bascially any non-Porsche parts you can grab off other Euro cars and make it look good. Carbon fiber and fiberglass welcome.

Cup Look: All I can say here is all out racer trim. Gutted interior and only what is needed to monitor the engine (speedo optional). Mostly these seem to use heavy duty Porsche stuff, but it is optional if other solutions exist. Of course zero chrome and probably Lexan windows and fiberglass/carbon everything possible.

Ricer Look: Yah there are some bling bling VWs out there. Hard to define, but go to the shows and it shows up.

Cal Look: Everyone knows this look. Worse performance in a turn than stock, pitiful. I like the look in some ways but it is 30 year old technology which is piss poor given the options available today.


Most people end up EuroLook in my opinion (heck that is what I will end up with as well) even though they might want GermanLook.

Heck look at our scene right now! There are very few GL or EL cars out there at all. Some are show ponies anyway which blows :( I think Jak is the best example we have right now (that I know of -so no offense to anyone) of what our goal is with our cars. Daily driver that tears up the track on the weekends.

I like Joe Cali's words the best "NextGen". The nect generation of what the Beetle should have been to compete in a modern market against the European cars. Big brakes, T4 engine, good seats, good sound system, reliable, fast driver.

I find it striking that one person does not see the pre-68 cars as a true GL. And I have to agree to an extint that they are not the easiest to pull off the look nor the most adaptable. To be honest I doubt it is possible (or look good) to make a true GL early Beetle. Why? The early bumpers need to stay chrome which kills the GL thing, also the door windows. Granted earlys do make a nice EL :)

Sorry if my views are little more ridgid than most, but that is the way I see it.

[Jim Long]

Totally agree with VUJADE's response.

In 1970 I put the motor, brakes and wheels from my recently "totaled" '65 Porsche (356), into my wife's otherwise stock "66 Bug. Was that an early German Look car????

[NextGen]

If you want to see something different check out my SLICED BUMPERS. http://home.att.net/~nextgen/intro.html . My car is now under a new restore, wider CCC fenders, early head lights and now my SLICED BUMPERS will be Chrome.

I call them sliced because I take stock later then 70 bumpers and cut out the middle black 1" area. I do it on a band saw and make to full length cuts. What you then have is two "L" shapes that you overlap the top over the bottom then bolt is together. What you get is a bumper 1/3 the thickness,yet the same design. It is a clean look, yet strong and shows off your body work while still protecting your car. Quite a Unique look.
Joe Cali - Next Generation-USA.com

[Ron Roberts]

I think of it as what is the car set up to do. If it is set up to handle curves and mountain roads, and still be at home on the long open straits I give it a German O.K. If it is set up optimally for the 1/4 mile with low gearing and skinny front tires and a 1/4 mi. suspension then its not a German looker.

Ron

[Wally]

Vujade, Alex,
I agree with most of your opinions on the description of the German Look style and how to deal with styles.
For many years I have seen germans cars come to our bug shows here in the Netherlands (thats next to Germany). The thing that struck us was that they all seem to have a certain quality about them. Their cars looked better in some way. You could by just looking at cars and not looking at the licence plates see where they came from (germany or the Netherlands). It was thought by us that germans were more 'car minded' and spended more money on them and it showed big time. More and more if one of our cars looked like it was tuned in a quality like way, we called it the germans look.
I missed therefore two very important words in these posts: Understatement and Quality.
IMHO the best start for a understatemant bug would be to start with the most technically advanced bug they made: the model 1975 1303, mostly since it has the Golf style struts (as of 1974) and the latest steering system (1975 only; of course all converts have it as well from 1975 onwards) (don't know the english term for that steering type now).
It's just my personal best car, although the Germanlook applies to all other models as well, I agree.

I hope to have contributed somewhat on this topic,

Keep up the good atmosphere here! I enjoy it.

Take care,
Walter

[Wally]

In addition to my former post and as a reply to Pillow on the German Look: The abundance of Porsche parts is not neccesary for the German Look qualification, but evolved so because most Porsche parts are excellent quality and fit outright in most cases (944 rear suspension has even VW stamped parts in it!... really, and the brake system bolts right on as we know). The porsche parts are most of all a must to keep the power in one piece and the car on the road.
We must not give the idea that we are wannebee Porsche owners by srewing as many P parts on our car as possible! Hell, for the money we (I) spend on the car, I could buy a very decent 911!, but that's not the thrill for me. Anybody with some money can buy a Porsche and drive fast. To get the degree of understatement from a bug that we make and embarres other modern sport cars is much more difficult. And more fun to boot!

About 15 years ago, we held a meeting for original minded bug owners and 'other' together. There was a very beautifull oval, totally stock but for the 5,5 inch wheels. The original guys loved it. Then he drove to the sprint lane and the original guys looked up a little: what was he doing there? When he floored it (one of the first 2,4 l type's on the road here) there eyes popped almost out and I couldn't stop grinning for about a week or so... Pure understatment. Maybe not exactly German Look but it was a start.
Thanks Rens Ruts, for that experience!

Take care all,
Walter

[wannabug]

so with the german look does it start with a superbeetle or can any year beetle be considered germanlook. the only reason i ask this is because almost everybody has a super. i am a newbie and am trying to learn as much as possible. i would like to build one for myself and then my daughters. thanks chris

[trevorbrady]

Chris, unless I missed something here, the whole thrust of this discussion is Germanlook/Eurolook is whatever you want it to be. You don't HAVE to start with a '75 super beetle, or a '53 oval, it doesn't matter. There's even German/Euro bay window busses out there.

It's more a state of mind: you (the owner/builder/driver) strives to improve the breed, by adding on components that will enhance the performance and driveability of your VW.

As it happens, a lot of these components can be borrowed from modern cars (and not just Porsches!). The 'looks' end of things will probably follow on naturally, like if you put on a set of light alloy wheels to improve the cars handling, they generally look better than the steel wheels they replace. Also when you lower your car, it generally looks better.

As with a lot of things "Form Follows Function" kind of by accident!

Don't be rail-roaded into thinking you've got to find a '72 standard model beetle or something to start your project on, or that you've got to have these wheels or those brakes to make your car "Germanlook". Keep it loose, and keep the idea of improving what VW gave you in mind...

[Supa Ninja]

I spent Thanksgiving with one of good Cal Look friends in SoCal. Anyways he's a old school cal look guy from the 70's and I was very curious what he thought German Look was so I asked him and he simply said "It's the way Porsche would build a Bug".

[regis101]

My understanding is that the later model beetles were upgraded with beefier engines and suspension parts so as not to get run over on the Autobahn. Cosmetics are a personal evolution that morphed into the "look". But it remains the fact that it's based on performance. Ask a German.

[kdanie]

Regis101,
That's exactly how my project got started..... I almost got run over by a tour bus at 72mph on Hy 101 here in NorCal.
My trash bug (daily driver) can run 75mph but it's working pretty hard, 80mph is downright scarry! Why did VW put the nose on '68s so high in the air anyway? It just catches air under the nose and give you one wild ride!
Anyway, I started looking at type 4 power, then a 5 speed came into the picture. If you can go fast you better be able to stop fast too so the 944 brakes got installed and you might as well be comfortable at those speeds so 911 seats are in order and with the $$$ in the engine a 914 tack with 912 speedo to match with VDO ****pit gages to monitor vitals. Poof! I've got a GL! (well 2/3ds anyway, this spring I hope!) Damn, this mission creep is killing me!!
ken

[Jim Andritsakos]

German look originally started from Germany from people who put as much as possible Porsche parts to their VWs.If a car does not have at least Porsche brakes & wheels and a huge type IV engine with 911 cooling kit it is not real German look for me.

Modern alloys and CB brakes are modern/euro look not real German Look.



:tisktisk:

[oasis]

Hi,

I am fairly new to all of this. Nevertheless, I have done a lot of reading because the 1303 (most likely) I will buy and modify will be my first owned air-cooled VW.

From what I have read, the German Look came from people who wanted to emulate the cars driven in the Kafer Cup races. Interestingly, very few of those cars have Porsche wheels from the photos I have seen. (I don't know about the brakes since I can't read German.)

I surely hope the GL -- or as some would have it, the "real," "true," "genuine," <whatever> GL -- doesn't evolve into a pigeon-holed standard like the American Kennel Club does for breeds of canines, or the Cal Look scene for that matter.

The sameness of the Cal Look is boring. (Yes, this is my opinion only. Then again, this is my post.) The only thing that sets most apart from each other is the extent and cleanliness of each owner's car. It is no wonder so many of the winners at shows and featured cars in the US mags are trailered in/trailered out.

Zzzzzzzzzz.

I personally don't want another auto manufacturer's emblem on my future project. That's my preference. That's not to say I don't appreciate a GLer with Porsche wheels. Indeed, I do.

More importantly, I want a product that will improve the car's performance on the highways and byways. That seems to me to be more the essence of the GL than a brand name.

Perhaps, it is the semantics of this whole thing: German Look.

Does "German" mean everything has to be German? Does "Look" mean everything has to be made to a specific standard?

I hope not.

Because I will still make my car the way I want. And I will avoid the high-and-mighties with their clipboard full of preconceptions like a rash.

MOO,
René

[vujade]

exactly Oasis..:)

I think that the GermanLook evolved the way it did because of the desire to make the cars more modern.

The only reason Porsche stuff is so prevelent is because of the ease of adaptation to a VW (They are very close cousins :) )

I dont think anyone is trying to be a Porsche for that matter.
It would just be eaiser to buy a Porsche, then try to make one.

I think most of us, & especially myself included are not trying to transform my BUG into a Porsche, but are just trying to make the best handling, fastest accelerating VW to come off the assembly line.

Which is more fun too you?
Beating someone while driving a Porsche?
Or whooping up on someone while driving a fast VW?

just a though to ponder:

Leather Driving Gloves $49
180 HP Type 4 Motor $6000
Seeing the look on their face when you beat them in your VW... PRICELESS! :)

[Michael Ghia]

To me the car doesn't have to look different from a Cal-look car but it has to have a different purpose.

Cal-look came about because of the Drag racing scene.
German-look came about because of track racing. A completely different idea.
If it's meant to handle, stop and accelerate like a track car... it's a German Look car to me.

It's all in the performance. Anything goes so far as I'm concerned in looks

Mike Ghia

[Vyper]

Here's my 10 pence/cents worth:


I own a 72 GT Beetle

porsche 944 interior
carbon fibre dash panels, running boards (new ones from Joe v soon to replace my CSP ones). fire wall, more on the way...
VDO dials
New Beetle (concept 6 spoke alloys)
Memo import lights front, rear, and bumper indicators
type 1 engine (being rebuilt to 1776 twin dells currently)
Modern mirrors with home installed m3 side repeaters

What style is it? MY style! :D


I thank you
:silly:

Vyper

[mabus013]

personally, I found out what the german look was after I'd already figured out what I wanted to do with the beetle (that I'd bought a Super Beetle unknowingly definately helped). I basically wanted to combine my loves for Street/Hot Rods with import cars. I wanted to build a car with street rod-esque touches (pretty much impossible to get from modern cars, unless you want a muscle car aura) that would go, handle, and be compact and light weight, and that had a good aftermarket following so I wouldn't have to one-off everything. The beetle is capable of all this and more if done right. On top of this, it's one of the cheapest cars to modify, even more so than classic Chevys.

That said, I'm grateful to find others out their with similiar goals, whatever the movement is called. I'd hate to have to go this alone.

One man's opinion,
M13

[chigger]

I got started back in the bug scene about 7 years ago. The first thing I wanted to do after I bought a bug was to upgrade it to make it more drivable. Better brakes, better tires, HEAT, etc. As my designs progressed it came apparent that I wanted to upgrade my bug to the 21st century and maintain the external look of the classic bug. Basically I wanted to upgrade the mechanicals, but since I am not very good with body work keep the stock or near stock exterior and interior. All that has changed due to evolution.
The chassis was the first to be upgraded. I used alot of porsche parts, because they were cheap and worked. While I like other wheels alot better a set of 7x16 Phonedials with tires for $150 is hard to argue with. Alot of choices were also made due to availability. When I got started there were only a few choices for brakes, lowering the suspension, sway bars, etc. The choices we have now are alot more available.
I bought a 70 body because it has the tail lights I like and it doesn't have the rear fresh air vents which seem to like to rust out the rear quarter panels. And it was cheap and available.
Overall I looked at all the different years of cars and the different aftermarket parts and decided on what I liked and what would work and started collecting parts. Then along came the euro or german look forums and the people on the forums were doing similar things to their cars. I have been in heaven ever since.
This is what I am doing. It is what I like. If it fits into a certain style fine, if not so what! I like it and I have to drive the car.

1970 standard with 70 rear tail lites maybe frenched
1961 front fenders with shaved signal lites
Oval tube bumpers bent to match the curve of the early cars
A front air dam of my own design
A small rear wing of my own design
Body chrome , but none on the windows
Stock lightly tinted window glass (factory option)
H4 headlights, round yellow fogs and round driving lights
(I will be driving this car daily)
Level lowered stance about 2 /12 inch
7x 16 Porsche Phonedials polished with 205 55 tires
BMW sport seats (I think they are Recarro, got them cheap)
914 guages (they fit are big, they will work and they were cheap)
HEAT
Aluminum door panels, dash, and glove box
Roll cage with four way harness
To many chassis mods to discuss them all

My vision is a comfortable car that will cruise fast, stick to the road, and brake hard, yet be able to be driven reliabilely on a daily basis. Is it a GL? I don't know. I just know I will like it.
How about a grey hammertone spray can paint job. I have spent all my money on the engine.

[TitoRay]

A guy I work with, who is from Brazil, and doesn't speak perfect English, after a few seconds of word searching said this about my car, which isn't even GL all the way yet, "I likes because, well, *shrug*, it is old car, but it looks like new one.":cool:
I kinda smiled to myself, knowing what he meant(he has no idea about the German Look). Its the most general definition I have heard, but yet oh so accurate.;)

[super vw]

To me the so called "German look" is what you make it to be, it could just be the style you put into your car such as wheels and other parts, all the way to the extreme of upgrading and modifying things like porsche gear boxes, chassis, bodies and engines and suspention "mods". i also think there are guide lines to this style or look, i have seen a few people on the net saying they have a germanlooker or Euro looker but in reality they dont, stock bodies, engine and runing gear and such shoudent be counted as a GL car.
Also i do question why we call it German look, i mean hey... all our cars are german made so wouldent all german made cars be considered a GL?
Personly im going for a GL looker in a way, i do have Porsche wheels (16" Fuchs), and other Porsche goodies inside such as 911 seats, steering wheel and a 911 style dashboard (soon to be carbon fiber). but i dont like to clasify my car as just a GL, but rather MY style of GL... and thats what it should be about, not totaly copying or going with a trend of what some one else is doing... but going with what you want and need out of your car.
:silly:

[Axl R]

I am quite new to the German- or Euro-look . I find this look a refreshing new idea compared to the aging and boring "Cal-look". As said in other posts , the Cal-look is becoming very much a cookie-cutter look , and there doesn't seem to be anything new coming down the pipe in the near future to keep my interest up . Occaisionally , a car will come along that stands out , but it is usually few and far between . I like how the German-look takes some of the better parts of the Cal-look(I know that I am going to get an arguement on this point) and incorporates it into something newer and more exciting . To me , this is the next evolution of the Cal-look . I am excited about where this look is heading . Axl :)

[Axl R]

Hey !

I'm going to piss off alot of people with this post , but I've never been one to play it safe . I just went through the section on member's rides , and I have to say that it appears to me that most of these so called "german-lookers" are actually "cal-look" cars . When I look at alot of these pictures , I don't see anything that would qualify these cars as Euro-styling . They are still running on empi-style 15" rims with old fashioned dual carbed type 1 engines and drum brakes(I'm a mechanic , I look for the mechanical details) . Don't get me wrong , they are still nice cars , but last time I looked , the site was called the GermanLook Forum , not CalLook Forums . I did see some very good examples of a german-look cars , but they were few and far between .
I know that I am going to get some dirty looks my way , and I definately look forward to any constructive critisism . Axl :takethat:

[super vw]

i here ya, i have noticed this a bit aswell. not just on this site, but others aswell. my 1303 wont be a pure GL but a car that has porsche style and a little performance kick. i dont have the money to do one full on with a type-4, 915 trany...ect. so im doing a auto cross daily driver fun car. type-1 motor, porsche brakes/wheels, porsche seats dash, and we cant forget suspention upgrades... just nothing to intense like you see on some of them "pure" GL cars$$$. but some day i will build a GL with all the works when i have the money, being a teen its hard to do anything more without the suport of filthy rich parents (dont have that).

[Supa Ninja]

Majority of the cars in the members rides, including myself, are under construction. Plus there are no set rules to GL so some owners call there's a GL when others wouldn't consider them a GL. I don't know if that makes a lot of sense.

[lazyted]

i believe it was keith seume who said that " where as the cal look takes its inspiration from the drag strip the german look takes it from the race track"
after all isnt that why most german look fans prefer the super beatles?
i personaly consider the cal look a more laid back style where the german look is more adrenalin filled.:D
but its good to know that you cant realy generalize on what each look is. after all isnt that what customization is all about, to make your car reflect your individuality.
looks are supose to overlap :silly:

[vujade]

If you go back to the 80s VW mags you will see a lot of so called cal look cars that dont look much different then the gl cars of today.

I have pics of cars with monochromatic paint jobs, dechromed, Porsche Fuch wheels all around. The only thing that sets those Cal Look apart from GL cars today was they had big t1 engines & not having Porsche brakes or trannies.

I really believe that the German Look is the next evolution of the Cal Look. Its where the look was progressing too in the 80s. Then in the 90s the Cal Look took a magor step backwards into the 70's for some reason. Oh well, it was there loss & our gain. :D

[zen]

Axl R,

Supa said it, but it is worth reiterating. especially as new as the look is to the US, most of the cars are under construction still. if you look at most of the european entries, i think you will agree that many to most of those are GL. give it a little time. i am sure there will be quite a few that still don't deserve the badge or just never really get complete, but for now the gap is understandable.

btw, you should have seen mine just last year and had it posted here. that was because it was under construction. i think most would agree that mine is GL now.

[COXBOW]

Hi folks,

For my part as a European and participated in a couple of German – French and of course Belgian meetings those last years I’ve noticed a “tendency” that I believe to be the essence of a German-Look:

- A recent model (doesn’t have to be a 1302/1303) the
most wanted model in Germany and border countries GL
is the 30the anniversary beetle. (’85)

- ’17 and more alloys doesn’t have to be Porsche’s I
would even say that it’s becoming more and more
tuning alloys these last years.

- A classic monochrome paint most of the time a grey
one, but always a metallic.

- No chrome or the original one’s painted black.

- Sport front seats, a couple of years ago it was indeed
911-924-944 one’s but that’s the past, now to be “in”
you ‘v got to have “EKU” “Koening” or “Remmele”
one’s (well known German air-cooled tuners) most of
the time in black leather, and no back seats.

- Porsche or Remmele brakes on the 4 wheels.

- And of course a big and powerful engine, most of the
time a T4, but at least a 2.000cc anyway…

The new tendency is to have recent rear lights (1303 type) but pre ’65 front fenders whit Porsche 911 headlights, but that’s almost only in Germany.

This is only my opinion and certainly not a “that’s the way you have to do it”

[Axl R]

I can understand the part of being under construction . It seems that if you talk to alot of car builders , they will say there is always something else they want to do to their cars , no matter how complete it is . I can also understand about the cost factor , as you add the name "PORSCHE" on anything and you start talking about big $$$$$ . I didn't set out to say that all the cars on the post were not GL's , or that the cars were ugly . I am fairly new as well to the GL , and agree that they are a progression of the Cal Look , and therefore there will be alot of similarities . I guess I was a little dissappointed at not seeing a whole lot of GL cars on a site dedicated to the GL . Axl:disappoin

[justdubbin]

This is probable going to get me called all the names under the sun......but please, only some of what I'm saying is what I believe........ EHHHH I heard you say.

I have been surfing a lot over Christmas & the New year & come across some good sites, one UK Hot Rod/Custom site in particular had some great cars and great views about modified cars.
They were on about Rat Rods in the US and in particular their owners, how they would only entertain Rods which were built to specific guidelines, i.e. no chrome, had to have the correct pedal box, the correct gauges and even to the point where the would only wear clothes that were in period with the cars they drive :silly:

Now I know the German Look is not like that, at least it's not the impression I get from these boards..... but there are some people that see it.... ONLY using Porsche wheels, brakes, seats etc as opposed to an aftermarket set of wheels, Brembo or Willwood brakes.

Not ever one can source or afford Porsche parts, there seem to be hundreds of Porsche breakers/specialists in the US but here in the UK there are just a handful, the same in Europe I would imagine.
With availability comes cost.......

In the US there are a lot more older Fords etc to build Rat Rods, the same as there are a lot more second hand Porsche spares and all this brings the cost down.

Basically what I think I'm trying to say is lets hope we don't gone down the same route as those Rat Rod guys & girls.

I think GL is trying to make your Bug or Bus as modern as possible (all the creature comforts) and to drive and handle as best as possible while still retaining the individuality that only a Bug/Bus can give you today whilst sharing the roads with all the ****ty boring mundane computer designed things all around us.

P.S. if they do have some Porsche influence then all the better http://www.lo-rdz.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/buttrock.gif


Sorry for the long rant ;)


Rob.

[RLW6000]

I dont know if any of you would consider what I want my car to be GL or what. Right now its basicaly stock. What I want is probably a cross between a few styles including GL. I have a 1302. I want a Type IV motor and a tranny built to handle it. I want 15 inch 8 spoke empi's with a little wider than stock and a little lower profile also. I want type 1 ghia dics on the front and probably just leave the drums on the back. I want to drop it all around, but more in the front than the back (using ajust-a-struts). Also, the chrome is mostly gone already. The stock front turn signals are gone. Currently it has mexican bumper with signals in them, but will get "T" bars with old ghia "bullet" type signals mounted below the headlights on the fenders. In the rear, it has replica 39' ford teardrop tail lights. As for the interior, It will sport some kind of buckets (probably Honda) and Dolphin guages in a custom made fiberglass dash. Backseat as well as headliner and door panels will probably stay stock. The changes that have already been made, were done to the car when I got it. All this is what I hope to do if I ever get the $ to finish it and also if I dont get to pissed and sell it. I hope you all will still talk to me here after knowing what I want ot do to my car. Happy New Year, Randy

[Axl R]

justdubbin , I like the way you think . I had worked for a body shop for a short period of time ( a mistake I don't plan to make again!) and we were restoring a 1965 Ford Mustang . This car was about the 1003 or 4 Mustang ever built! The owner of the car started to go to a club dedicated to mustangs , and found out that to be a member , your mustang must have all matching numbers , all original paint color and options , etc . They would not even look at you if you were slightly off on any of these things . I don't know about you , but I just would not want to be a part of something that doesn't allow for some creative differences from what someone else has . I hope , just like you , that the VW groups don't do that . Axl . :takethat:

[COXBOW]

I agree with you, that’s why I’m now more on the GL/Custom side of the tuning, ‘cause u they can say what u want, Old-Speed Cal-Look etc.. it’s still tuning your Bug !
The problem with those Old-Speed and Resto-Cal guy is that they have indeed rules, and I hate rules !

If you put this or that accessory you’re more of this or that tendency and so you’re not “allowed “ to put this or that other accessory you like ‘cause you would mangle the styles ! Who cares !! That’s why I’m more on the German-Look side, but without the rule which are less strict but still…

What a also like in “my” mangled style is that I don’t have to do anything in particular just what crosses my mind, and certainly not buy this or that brand or supermarket same-as-the-neighbour stuff to “personalise” my car, how can you personalise something with the same stuff as everybody and by following rules ??!!

So put the liberating Custom label on my car even if it has indeed a GL tendency…

Who agrees or disagree ?

[RLW6000]

I like the mangled idea. I forgot to mention before that I also want to figure out some way to use some 62' or there about interior window cranks and door handle as well as the door handles for the outside from the same year bug. I like the way they look and besides, who has seen a Super with that style door handles? I like my style to be very individual but also functional. I also like a lot of power. Thats why I am going with the Raby type IV and tranny to go with it.
Randy

[njv]

hi
first post to this but i thought id leave it a while before i did!!!

moderninity in summery and a lot to do with tuv germans have the autobahn and you can drive as fast as you like on the ever decreasing unlimited streaches of it .

so they want to fit big engines to do this there must be improvements by law elsewhere ie your brakes. everything done to a german car must have paperwork cerifiing its safty and up to which level ie these brakes allow you to run upto 150bhp and so on.

money! germans are odd things in how they like to look affluant to the rest of society and when do other people see you most when your out and about in your motor so spending absolutely rediculous amounts of money on it makes you apear to the outside that you are well off and beleive me this is important for some ! bragging rights if it cost more it must be better!!! doh.

i will take pictures at this years mai kaefer treffen in hannover it is a good meeting last year there was a lot of gl cars there allready and i saw the trend within germany moveing away from porsche wheels to more modern alloys and less porsche seats and a move towards light racing buckets and so on.

i myself very nearly got a set of 5x100 wheels instead of the c2,s ive got for the spring i may still run a set of pedrinis anyway as im concerned about the wheels weight even though ive got 4x 6 by 16 c2,s the smallest width there is i think there still 11/2kg heavier than the pedrinis i will probably end up running both sets throughout the summer changing when i feel like it.

the essence of it is a moveable feast modern performance parts put to use for saftys sake another is the clear lamps modern and as far as safty is concerend one of the best things you can do for driving at night is fit brighter clearer lights same go,s for the rear of the vehical as if you have to stop fast you want to let them behind you know you are.

gl unlike the cal look will continue to evolve and will not sit static and stagnate due to the germans impulse to do something creatively original with a new part.

i had some young lads ask me the other day why they hadnt seen this new model vw at the local dealership :( i had to explain that there dads probably did and they where a little surprised

dont let yourselves down guys by ever saying it cannot be a gl car as it doesnt have such and such dont bag and tag yourselves or be hard on others if they dont have what you consider to be the look its a damn none stagnating proliferating moveable feast of modern part application s.

yea baby.

[justdubbin]

hi
first post to this but i thought id leave it a while before i did!!!

moderninity in summery and a lot to do with tuv germans have the autobahn and you can drive as fast as you like on the ever decreasing unlimited streaches of it .

so they want to fit big engines to do this there must be improvements by law elsewhere ie your brakes. everything done to a german car must have paperwork cerifiing its safty and up to which level ie these brakes allow you to run upto 150bhp and so on.

money! germans are odd things in how they like to look affluant to the rest of society and when do other people see you most when your out and about in your motor so spending absolutely rediculous amounts of money on it makes you apear to the outside that you are well off and beleive me this is important for some ! bragging rights if it cost more it must be better!!! doh.

i will take pictures at this years mai kaefer treffen in hannover it is a good meeting last year there was a lot of gl cars there allready and i saw the trend within germany moveing away from porsche wheels to more modern alloys and less porsche seats and a move towards light racing buckets and so on.

i myself very nearly got a set of 5x100 wheels instead of the c2,s ive got for the spring i may still run a set of pedrinis anyway as im concerned about the wheels weight even though ive got 4x 6 by 16 c2,s the smallest width there is i think there still 11/2kg heavier than the pedrinis i will probably end up running both sets throughout the summer changing when i feel like it.

the essence of it is a moveable feast modern performance parts put to use for saftys sake another is the clear lamps modern and as far as safty is concerend one of the best things you can do for driving at night is fit brighter clearer lights same go,s for the rear of the vehical as if you have to stop fast you want to let them behind you know you are.

gl unlike the cal look will continue to evolve and will not sit static and stagnate due to the germans impulse to do something creatively original with a new part.

i had some young lads ask me the other day why they hadnt seen this new model vw at the local dealership :( i had to explain that there dads probably did and they where a little surprised

dont let yourselves down guys by ever saying it cannot be a gl car as it doesnt have such and such dont bag and tag yourselves or be hard on others if they dont have what you consider to be the look its a damn none stagnating proliferating moveable feast of modern part application s.

yea baby.



I think this sums up EVERYTHING there is to say..................http://www.lo-rdz.co.uk/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/bowdown.gif


Rob.

[Eurolook71]

TRULY!!!

Thanks njv, that was simply beautiful.

[jps]

to me, all the different "looks" are based on some type of racing. the Cal-look is based on drag racing, hence the narrow tires up front, big engine, not much for handling and brakes. the Baja look is based on desert racing. To me the German look is based on road racing. good handling, big brakes, high tech thru out.

[63Rag]

GL ers,
Very simply put a performance. One thing that places GLrs apart is the ability to accelarate decelarate and handle at a higher performanc envelope.
Light weight rims and performance tires. A more muscular motor, high performing disc brakes. Our European counterparts place a strong emphises on the whole car being "designed" for the purpose of pushing what VW engineers thought the VW was capable of.
Cal lookers are going to go by the wayside (220 hp, no disks factory bench seats? have you ever slid off your seats on a sharp turn?) I feel we should have water cooled performance GLrs (VW, Audi, Porsche) vehcles recognized.
I wouldnt be surprised if someone place a supercharged h2o motor in a performance 1302 or 1303 and races SCAA.
I feel that as enthusiests we all should take the next step in the design of our
Beetles / VWs.
Mine will be a beast.
the Wolf

[COXBOW]

In Europe we have a “Fun Cup” it’s based on a beetle chassis, it looks like a beetle but it’s all fibreglass, steering wheel in the middle of the car !!
And a Golf engine, a water-cooled engine that is, and I really don’t like it at al, what does it have of a bug ? The look ! That’s not enough for me
So a water-cooled engine in a bug just to have what? Easy cheap modern hp and performance?
No f… way !

[MattKab]

We have a similar series (if not the very same) in the uk, Uniroyal or something. Droids, Clones or Frankensteins... Totaly lifeless no?

Racelook yes, performance T1 no. In my opinion of course.

A thoroughbred Volkswagen needs 'some' history.

But, an ex-Uniroyal type car with an SVA for road use, using stock lights, trim. etc. would impress me for sure.

Matt

[Axl R]

Hey , All!!

First things first - njv (I hope I got it right) - I think you nailed it with your post . I especially agree with the safety aspect that you mentioned . I have recently just purchased a very good Dodge Grand Caravan ( :eek: yeah , I know its not a Dub , but I got a family to haul around, plus I got a smoki' deal on it!) and one the first changes I made was to remove the wimpy stock 55/80 watt headlamps and replace them with some off-road 80/100 watt ones . Next job is to redo the brakes as this van has sat for 6 months . The brakes work ok , but I will make sure they are in top notch condition . As a licensed GM Goodwrench mechanic , I am able to safely accomplish any of the work that needs to be done . Some of our Provinces here in Canada do not allow you to work on any safety-related items , such as brakes , unless you are qualified to do so (another very good idea - not only does it discourage total amateurs from messing up while working on their vehicle , but it makes them bring it to me , giving me more work :D ) . And I figure that there is enough to worry about with the way people drive without having to worry about if they are going to be able to stop in time!

Second - I am very intrigued and interested in seeing what new developments in the areas of the T1 are coming along , as when I eventually do get to build another Bug (time , money and my wife are preventing me from doing so presently :bawling: ) , I will have already seen what is out there and maybe will incorporate some of the ideas into my own car . Of course , most people want to have that car that is totally unlike anything else out there , but that doesn't mean that you can't use something that has already been used on some of it .

Anyways , I guess through all of my rambling on , what I am trying to say is have fun with you Dub , but just be safe about it . I just may be the person that your unsafe vehicle hits!!! :mad: Axl .

[vwpride73]

I'm relitively new hereand thougtht I would give you my insight. I have read this post and agree that all modifications should be ones that modernize the car and improve performance. I dont think that people should have to run only porsche wheels, big Type-4, or full on racing suspension. Anything that improves the overall driving characteriscs should be welcome. I myself am very far away from being a true german-look car. Engine, suspension, interior, wheels, etc. should be an improvement over stock regardless of the modification. I know most of this babling has already been stated before, but I just needed to get what it means to me out there.

[jonnyspatter]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v511/jonnyspatter/germanlook.bmp~original
Flat grey 1303 Bug, dechromed with body coloured euro bumpers.
17" Porsche Cups.
Porsche 5 spd 'box.
Porsche 944 suspension and brakes.
2ltr type 4 motor with Porsche fan.
Stripped out interior with ally or carbon fibre panelling.
2 ally bucket seats (no rears)
roll cage.

This was my firm opinion until yesterday, when I discovered germanlook.com!
Its exactly how I was planning to do my '03, but I've discovered there is so much more to 'the look' than I first thought, and I'll gladly admit that my opinion was very narrow minded. Having seen some of the cars on here, I think the only definition of 'german look' is the one thing that all these cars have in common: A theme of technical advancement of the bug from its original form, adapted primarily for all round high performance (as opposed to the cal look, where their only goal is straight line acceleration).

As this is my first post (I just put 'german look' into google, to research into the look I was going for), you'll have to forgive my blinkered views on the subject. But I think from now I'm going to find this website a real education! :)

[super vw]

A theme of technical advancement of the bug from its original form, adapted primarily for all round high performance (as opposed to the cal look, where their only goal is straight line acceleration).

This IS what the "germanlook" is all about, you hit the nail dead center!
That is a good way of puting it to.

BTW, Welcome to the club!

Jonathan

[BWE]

Quote: "A theme of technical advancement of the bug from its original form, adapted primarily for all round high performance"

For your first post I think you've hit the nail on the head. ;) I don't have a personal definition of what 'Germanlook' is but I'll tell you what I enjoy about the 'scene' the most: customization, the challenge to 'make better' the cars (and buses!) that we have, the open minded sharing of ideas and possibilities. On this board, at club get togethers, at shows, etc. there is an exceptance of, and appreciation for, different "paths to perfection". So I'd like to take this opportunity to thank everyone here for listening to my (sometimes) bizarre questions/ideas and posting their own. :agree:
I hope that everyone has a good, and safe year, in 2005 and we continue to be an inclusive scene!
Cheers,
Dave

[Beetleman]

[QUOTE=vujade]To me, the german look is what the Cal Look should have evolved into, instead it stayed the same as it was 30 years ago!
[QUOTE]

Couldn't agree more, to my mind it's the pure simple exterior style that suits the classic lines :cool: of the bug more than anything else, and the German look sees this evolve with a bit more oomph!!

ps sorry to reawaken this thread but I've only just joined... :)

[oicdn]

My opinion:

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL297/2096820/7617171/101768875.jpg

That is the EPITOME of GL IMO.

Looks mean, and handles great. And most of the time has the speed to back it up.

Handling and performance superceed everything else.

Simply put, large brakes, large german wheels, and great suspension.....

[vujade]

ps sorry to reawaken this thread but I've only just joined... :)

No reason to be sorry, thats what the forum is here for. Not just for people
that have already seen this thread, but also for newbies as well :)

[Troy_Audio]

My opinion:

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL297/2096820/7617171/101768875.jpg
Handling and performance superceed everything else.

Simply put, large brakes, large german wheels, and great suspension.....

Sweet I like it.. looks killer..
What was your Best add on?Performance wise¿?
Peace Troy

[oicdn]

I wish that were mine.....

[lazylongboarder]

I wish that were mine.....

Check out VWTrends June 2002 page 40. This car is the reason why i decided to do the GermanLook style and now i'm broke. Its a 98' mexi bug with 182 hp type 4 from france. Very Clean. Does anyone have more pics of this bug on any websites? The VWTrends article has 4 pics and 1 page of writing.

[vujade]

Check out VWTrends June 2002 page 40. This car is the reason why i decided to do the GermanLook style and now i'm broke. Its a 98' mexi bug with 182 hp type 4 from france. Very Clean. Does anyone have more pics of this bug on any websites? The VWTrends article has 4 pics and 1 page of writing.

there are pics of that bug here on GL.com in the Gallery.

[Axl]

You may have seen my previous posts under the name of Axl R - I haven't been on for a while , and I forgot my login name - So I am now just plain , old AXL , at least until I forget this login and go for something else . I was going through the posts , and skimming over what some people think the GL look is . I have thought about this and came to this conclussion . This look is the marriage between the old california look and the new tuner cars . There is still a lot of touches that come from the cal look cars , but the idea of the rims/tires , bigger engine and brakes , and what not are very similar to what the kids are doing with their Hondas and Acuras and whatever else . I think this is the best of both worlds and I am excited to see what else is coming in the GL arena . Axl.

[oicdn]

^^^Difference is...GL is about FUNCTION before form...Something the little ricers fail to realize. They use the "big rims" for the look...not because they need the "big rims" for thier brakes and contact patch.

Also, we're not really using cheapie parts....they on the otherhand, use some of the crappiest quality of parts on the market just to say they have another mod...lol

Been there, done that....saw a couple last night, laughed and they wondered why I was laughing in my "crappy bug"....

[Axl]

That may be correct , fot the most part , oicdn , but if you get down to it , the best cars (both GL's and ricer's ) are using the best parts available . Then you get the weekend warrior who is just going look , and quality be damned . I think no matter what type and style of vehicle that is being modified or restored , you will get the people who just hack the car together , and it shows . There are also the people with ricer's who are total opposite , and build the car for performance , and don't worry too much about the looks . I work with a guy who has a Honda Accord that has a spray bomb paint job , but has larger rims to handle the larger brakes , and a complete turbo system that has been proffesionally installed . I guess that what I am trying to say is that its hard to say that all people who drive this type of car are like this . We have to be careful about how we look at the other groups out there , because we don't want to be looked at in that way ourselves (I think). I hope you can understand my ramblings . If not , just ask! Axl .

[oicdn]

^^^ I COMPLETLY understand your "ramblings", and they're not ramblings at all.

I used to own one of each "rice" car. Truth be told, even the people who "don't have rice" are rice. Look at it like this. An Accord is a family car(not picking on your friend, just using it as an axample). It in NO WAY has ANY PERFORMANCE. It's chassis is incredibly heavy for the motor powering it. it's not stiff, and even with a Turbo H22 (prelude motor) it STILL can't even hang with a simple B16 swapped Civic. WHY would you dump money into that kind of car?

I know...I'm definitly guilty of this(http://importfighter.iwarp.com) But the Cavalier was atleast VERY strong in the JGTC circuit in Japan. Not using that as an excuse to warrant my riceyness, but I loathe people who hook up those kind of cars. There's a difference between a Family car such as a 5 series, and an Accord...and Yes, Honda actually makes some performance minded Sedans like the Acura TL. But that's not a car you'll "readily see" riced out. And most of the people who do rice it out, are exactly what your friend did to his Accord, Turbo and big brakes...but it's not an Accord...

Maybe it's because I've "moved on", and it may sound arrogant, but unless you own an Integra or a Civic, "performance" upgrades on a Honda is just crap....

[Axl]

I , like you , were not always into VeeDubs . My passion used to (and to a point , still is ) American Muscle Cars , with the '66 Stang being my favourite . I didn't even look twice at VW'sw until I started working with a couple of VW fanatics about 15 years ago . They introduced me to cal look bugs , and I was hooked . I have had three lookers now , and a GTI . I currently do not own a VW at this time , but I am always on the look out for my next project , especially since an 18 wheeler took my last one from me . For a while now , I have been planningout how I am going to do my next VW , and since coming across GL bugs , I know I have found the style that I have wanted for a long time . Before I became a mechanic and was staring to learn about my first bug (1971 Super) , I was asking around to some shops about the possibility of putting the type 2 bus motor into a bug . I was always told it couldn't be done . Now I know better . I will keep you posted on how the hunt (and persuading my wife) is coming along . Axl .

[brent]

Well I think the German look is now totaly de-chromed. Colour is also important, leading towards more modern european colours. Two tone is out! Chrome is nice but i think this was huge in the 70's. Big wheels is a must. Wheel choice is very important...no "bling" Big drilled dics all round with upgraded calipers. I think requires a very sporty look but not too over done, clean with out all the stripes and glitter. I definately look at the modern Porsche as a quide. One piece windows, slightly tinted glass maybe, upgrade interiour to more racey seats, better dash and instruments, get away from the vynal look think this was 70's ish. definately lower the ride height tastfully to make wheel fitting snug. Basicaly you should end up with a car which has an imediate "expensive" look about it. This would be hard to do on a cheap budget for sure.. I havent read all the threads but just my thoughts.
Brent.

[speedy]

just my thoughts , i think the german look has constantly been evolving over the last few years , and just looking through the galleries there is a huge spectrum of cars that fall under the gl look banner , i would say in general people that are drawn towards the gl look are more likley to have an interest in the technical side of things as if you want a gl car you have to build your own ain't many for sale out there , and of the ones forsale the chances of getting one to your spec is 0% , this is what drew me to the gl look as far as vw's go it is as of now the only true individual look ,we apreciate each others cars for the technical inovation that goes into the look, unlike cal which apart from the engine is a generally the sum of the component bolt on parts (i can't say to much on the subject as i am revamping my cal-looker to gl ) lol
well that is my two pence worth :laugh: :laugh:

[Axl]

Speedy , I like how you have put it . I have seen some Cal-lookers that have been modified , performance-wise , to be close to a GL , but again , the most important part seems to be "The Look" . I am a mechanic , and my first priority with any vehicle is the safety and mechanics , not if the vehicle is a looker . I think this is what drew me to the GL . I just keep dreaming and planning out my next Bug . Its going to be a hot GL Cabrio . The thing is that I am moving from Alberta , Canada to Indiana , in the US in a little over a year and a half , so I won't be getting a car until I move . I can hardly wait !
Axl .

[PJL54Oval]

I'll chime in on this. I agree with Speedy too. My car will have modern suspension, engine and trans. Good brakes and 18" wheels. The main focus being performance but heavey on looks too. My background was streetrods and hotrods. I got into VW's about 10 years ago because they seamed like a lot of fun but I quickly noticed that there were certain "Recipies" that way too many people were following, "cal-look, resto custom, DKP.... (but you get to choose between a few colors!)Kinda like the Early RED Camaro crowd. I decided I was going to build a VW the way I wanted and it just so happend that I seam to fit better with the GL group but I don't think my car necessarily fits GL. It does however fit the way "I" want to build my car. So it just may be a PJLOval-look VW. A little bit Streetrod, hotrod and Euro. Let's stay away from "recipies" and then we can keep our individuality!

[Axl]

Individuality is never a bad thing . The car I want to build is like what PJL54Oval said - a little bit of this , a little bit of that , and a whole lot of ME ! Way to express it PJL54Oval ! Rock on!!!

[PJL54Oval]

I hope that didn't sound like I was knocking the GL theme. I love it. Ever sine I saw the first Kafer Cup car I was sold. I would just hate to see ten years down the road a bunch of cookie cutter cars that all look the same. I don't think that is a problem based on what I see and read on this site. German influenced design is very tasteful and I think it will have a timless element as well if it is used correctly.

[Wally]

Well I think the German look is now totaly de-chromed. Colour is also important, leading towards more modern european colours.

This is an old thread, but still fun!

However, I couldn't disagree more with the above...
Actually, I believe GL isn't a 'look' at all, but rather a 'style' and/or a way how to do things to a car. Therefore, color and chrome (trim) or not is totally not important... :rolleyes:

To emphasize the 'sleeper' part of a 'German-style' car, we usually keep the original paint color and most (side) trim in place.
Then again, that maybe just me ;)

Regards,
Walter

[ricola]

I don't think it is about look at all.

Form follows function...

Rich

[Axl]

I don't think it is about look at all.

Form follows function...

Rich

Form may follow function , but I know that even though you may have a smoking performance car , you wouldn't want it to look like a piece of crap . I know I want a great looking car . I think I can assume that I am not alone in this . Axl .

[Supa Ninja]

I think what Ricola is trying to say is that when planning to build these great cars, we first concentrate on the fundamentals of what needs to be done to get most out of our cars then concentrate on what we want it to look like. As opposed to say the resto-custom crowd who are going for a certain look and could care less about handling and braking, or the vintage crowd. Another example is the Cal Look crowd with all the rules on how their cars have to look. We don't have specific rules on what our rides have to look like but they have to have certain mechanical traits, i.e. upgraded brakes, suspension, 5 speeds though not required are encouraged, power enough to use all of that, more modern gauges, sport seats....German Lookers are not rat rods so we want a tasteful paint job, modern performance cars usually don't have a lot of chrome so most GLers have shaved turn signals and painted bumpers. Form follows function.

[ricola]

That's what I was getting at ;)
Obviously we also want them to look good but anything we add is orientated around performance, not sticking things on to the car for the sake of it, and it is all done properly with a quality feel. Kind of like the Ruf of the Porsche world.

I think what Ricola is trying to say is that when planning to build these great cars, we first concentrate on the fundamentals of what needs to be done to get most out of our cars then concentrate on what we want it to look like. As opposed to say the resto-custom crowd who are going for a certain look and could care less about handling and braking, or the vintage crowd. Another example is the Cal Look crowd with all the rules on how their cars have to look. We don't have specific rules on what our rides have to look like but they have to have certain mechanical traits, i.e. upgraded brakes, suspension, 5 speeds though not required are encouraged, power enough to use all of that, more modern gauges, sport seats....German Lookers are not rat rods so we want a tasteful paint job, modern performance cars usually don't have a lot of chrome so most GLers have shaved turn signals and painted bumpers. Form follows function.

[Axl]

I'll buy that!

[TSAF]

As many Porsche parts as possible. Brakes, wheels, motor, transmission, interior. This is the german look and of course the car should be 1302/03.

[Axl]

As many Porsche parts as possible. Brakes, wheels, motor, transmission, interior. This is the german look and of course the car should be 1302/03.

If the car is not a 1302/03 , does that not mean it is not a GL? What about the GL Ghias and Type 2's out there ? Do they not count ? I personally don't think there should be limits put on what can and cannot be used as far as the car goes . With different types of VeeDubs used , there is more variety and , I hope , a lot more fun . Of course , I could be wrong ....

[Supa Ninja]

I wanna GL up my 914. modern + performance = German Look

[speedy]

just a thought , the gl look probably came from the german cars a few years back that used predominantly porsche parts (stay with me )the reason so many porsche parts were used would be the fact that many parts were easily interchangable and the cars were in germany,so does this mean using porsche parts from a 1970 porsche would give me the porsche sorry german look , i think not ,some of the best cars i have seen have used merc parts or parts from various manufacturers not always german. I suspect the original guys in germany thought there cars had the performance look and german look was no doubt coined by people seeking to emulate them .
To me gl should mean cars that have had there performance enhanced to modern standards and in many cases way beyond ,being able to out accelerate , brake, corner and look good at the same time must be the ultimate goal, anyway thats my 2 cents
jon :) :)

[thelazerviking]

it's a mindset

[Axl]

it's a mindset

What a deep and profound statement! Almost Zen-like!

[thelazerviking]

haha, that's what i was kind of aiming for. it does make total sense though

[Wally]

A german-style car has Kwalität (quality) and Grundlichkeit (uehh..doing it right, properly) written all over it.
Germans are car-people and spend more on their cars than most other country-man do.
Yes they go faster and handle better (Autobahn, no speed limits), but the make of parts used is not the key to what makes 'm a 'german' car (like Speedy said as well).

So yes, its sort of a mindset ;) but its definately not a 'Look' for the looks 'an sich'. The looks are just a result of another starting point. Therefore I usually object to the term 'german-look' and rather use german-style :rolleyes:

The best compliment I got was when I overheard one guy saying to the other guy when passing by the side of my car at a dutch meeting: "Hey, I thought this car would have german numberplates". :D

Walter

[dirk.Gysbrechts]

Hey Wally you just said what i was thinking!!!!!!!!!!!it is a way of live... :)

[56oval]

big arse wheels, right deck height,shaved body if early shape.similar to what some of the latest rods are coming around to. :rolleyes:

[THEBURG]

You know, I think the phrase " Germanlook " was coined to describe what some folks were seeing at that moment. Mainly V.W.s utilizing easy to find, and cheap to buy used porsche parts. They seem to be growing on trees in europe, but in the states, we had to take a different path. The German look, to me anyway, is about performance on the road, not the track ( ie: 1/4 mile ) like cal-look cars. Now take a look at the " RAT-ROD " cars. They put their money into the performance of the car rather than the looks. Then there's the " Hawian-look ". Big motors and show quility paint are the norm. Personally, I like the idea of a strong street presence with a stripped down look, just what's needed to do the job. No interior, basic gauges, monocrome paint, and anything else to step up the handling and performance. These days, you can buy the wheels of your choice, have the engine of your choice ( VW, Porsche, subaru, mazda rotory, mid-engine v-8, ect. ) the brakes of your choice, and so-on. So I don't think the German-look is about a style as much as it is a style about performance. What say you ?

[Axl]

You may be right on track with that . I agree that the performance on the roads , and not 1/4 mile . The German cars are made to perform on the Autobahn , and have to be able to perform at a certain level , or be eaten alive by Benzes and Bimmers . I also agree that while Porsche parts are a dime a dozen in Europe , here in the western countries (Canada and the U.S.) , we have to either pay through the nose or find other parts . Luckily for us there is many different aftermarket companies out there to help us .

[THEBURG]

Well my project's just starting, '63 Rag on a '72 b/j pan. The first " performance " mod will be a diet of fiberglass, I know, carbon fiber is the bomb, but S!!! is to spendy. Remmele will be hearing from me soonish. :D I was thinking about fiberglass doors with swing out windows to get around the " opening window " law. Maybe use a pop-out frame and hinge set up. Basically, what ever it takes to make it handle and go faster. Hell, I just hope I can still stand to drive the thing when I'm done! Sometimes you can take things to far, ya know what I mean?

[Axl]

Fiberglass doors may save you some weight , but unless you are racing , and /or have a full roll cage , you may want to re-think this and go with the metal doors . How safe are the fiberglass doors going to be compared to metal . Just think - the doors are the only thing between you and that car that just ran the red . What would you want for doors now!!!

[jonas_linder]

I don't think the stock door will stop much more :(

[Wally]

Martin Botts 1303 from a few posts down is what I would describe as a typical 'German' car:

http://www.bugat5speed.de/cms/images/stories/projekte/projekte-kaefer-fertig.jpg

If you look closely, you will see its almost stock on the outside, but the quality of the built oozes off from it...
Like I said before, german-style is what its about, not german-'Look' :rolleyes:

[oasis]

Actually when I look closely, I see something more sinister than pea-shooters for an exhaust ...

http://img228.echo.cx/img228/8350/1302drvbck3qtr4oi.jpg

... like mine :rolleyes: ... for the time being. ;)


Wally makes a good point which is my way of saying I agree with him. :D


Oh, and I also noticed the "VW 914" within the license plate.

[THEBURG]

Martin Botts 1303 from a few posts down is what I would describe as a typical 'German' car:

http://www.bugat5speed.de/cms/images/stories/projekte/projekte-kaefer-fertig.jpg

If you look closely, you will see its almost stock on the outside, but the quality of the built oozes off from it...
Like I said before, german-style is what its about, not german-'Look' :rolleyes:

Yep, looks like it's ready to pounce on the first unsuspecting ricer it comes across! :cool: I dig that paint as well, check out the reflexion, just like taking a picture of home, yes?

[ccain529]

When it's done right, to me it looks almost as if someone had unbolted the body of a Turbo S or even a Formula 1 racecar and replaced it with VW sheet metal! With the right rake they look as though they are speeding while setting still.
If you're like me and dig "Alternate History Fiction", whose to say this isn't the plan that Dr. Porsche had when he designed the Type 1. After all the early 356's had a lot in common with thier VW "Family Transport" counterparts! Had the Air Cooled beetle stayed in production in Germany maybe some chasis' would have found their way to a performance coach builder. Probably a topic that should be brought up on another thread but, could you imagine going down to your local VW dealer and Buying a pre-tuned, turbo, Porsche powered Type 1?

[oasis]

If you're like me and dig "Alternate History Fiction" ...

This is scary ... I am a huge fan of Uchronia, too.

[Hebster52]

My prejudice (if one might call it that) is that the GL is Hi-perf engine and transmission combined with a chassie that is made for highspeeds on Autobahn or any racetrack when ever you feel like it and all fitted inside a showfinished body.

[fastdub]

i remember reading an article written by keith seume, where he said 'german look cars have to be equipped with 17" wheels minimum' or words to that effect

in my opinion the greatest german looker ever built is christian steltzer's marathon blue 1303, and that runs 15" bbs split rims

a close 2nd to that is the burgandy semi auto that runs 16" compomotive fuchs-esque split rims

does a true german looker need track inspired features ?

[Axl]

17" rims seem to be the standard , but just like most styles , its all up to the individual's taste and perception of what the look is . In my opinion , with so many different rim manufacturers and styles , its next to impossible to say you have to run a certain type of rim to be considered a GL car . If everyone had the same style rim , this would fast become a cookie-cutter style of car . Of course , that's just my opinion , and I am sure there will be someone dissagreeing with what I have said . That's fine ,they are allowed to have their opinions , no matter how wrong they are!!!!:D

[Veedub]

Well Im new to the VW Bugs in general, I knew about the cal look, but did no know a German look existed.I like both looks and thought og a GL/CL combo would be cool.I think GL focuses on mostly fiberglass add ons as I notice you you need wider fenders for wider tires and so on. Also they focus on handling, and performance. But cal look, focuses on just performance and there bodies are stock and to me they do the same constant things over and over.Originally I was a fan of the Jap Imports. (ricers as you call them)My friends are ricers :laugh: they own hondas and when they heard I went to the darkside they were :eek: and were like 'Why",and well my issue with those cars was there to expensive to build up, for a sentra, a 4-2-1 header costs 499.95 now compare that to a header for a bug :laugh:So one day I went and picked up a HVW mag and there was a bug (it was GL but I didnt know at the time) it was orange and had nice rims (was 1 year ago anyway) then I wanted a bug and got a 72 Standard bug for 500 bucks.
Sorry for getting off subject, kind of, anyway in my opinion, GL is like the "ricer" world of the VW area, sorry no offense, but thats my opinion.

[EvilAngel]

Hi vewedub, I must differ with you, since "ricers" are not all jap imports, but, strictly speaking, jap import posers. Those who add 20'' rims and a three feet wing on a civic, and then keep the engine stock. Those who want to look like racers but are just posers, those are ricers to me (ant to several sources of information as well).

GL, instead, focuses on performance above all. The fenders are just there to keep the wide tires inside, and the wider tires have a function. Every body mod must be there because of a function. No bling bling here, no neon lights and the like. Just performance, in every sense, from brakes to engine. And, as you point, GL is more about circuit, while CL is morea bout drag racing.

[Veedub]

And, as you point, GL is more about circuit, while CL is morea bout drag racing.

ok true but wouldnt it be cool if you do a GL/CL combo that does both?:laugh: :laugh:

[EvilAngel]

it certainly would be, but there are things that are just incompatible. CL uses skinny tires on the front for decreasing drag, while GL uses fat tires all arounf for added grip. Also the source of inspiration of both styles is very different, one being based on kafer cup cars, and late style european cars; and the other being based on what a car club thought would be cool in the early 70's. There is, however, a more important fact here. What YOU want, the way you like your car. It really doesn't matter if it's a true gl or a true CL the only thing that matters is that you like your car, and that it truly expresses your way of life, or whatever you intend to express with it. Styles, as I see them, are more like a guideline. The only style that matters, or that should matter to you anyway, is your style. Take me for example. Is my car going to be a TRUE GL, having no porsche part at all? Some would say it isn't but who cares, anyway. It's the way I like it, and it would look more than a GL than like anything else, and it certainly will perform GL-style

[Veedub]

Yeah , take mine for example it isnt a cal look or a german look (im staying the 2 tone by the way, with my idea I got) ;)
Im going to run the current 15x4.5's front and rear with 195/60's, then narrow the front beam (since the front wheels stick out) 2 or 3" or to where my tire can tuck in the fender and for rear since its right even with the fender, i'll buy 1.25" wider fenders, then lower the whole car 3" front and rear, I think the tires will tuck in the fenders kind of.Not GL or CL but its what I want. :D I mean it will have handling upgrades like the typical GL, but power to run the 1/4 like a typical CL, if the 195's on 4.5" wheels dont spin at take off (if I was to take it to the track) :laugh:



Sorry if I hi jacked the thread, donno if I did or not though.

[effvee]

Martin Botts 1303 from a few posts down is what I would describe as a typical 'German' car:

http://www.bugat5speed.de/cms/images/stories/projekte/projekte-kaefer-fertig.jpg

If you look closely, you will see its almost stock on the outside, but the quality of the built oozes off from it...
Like I said before, german-style is what its about, not german-'Look' :rolleyes:

Hi, well the car looks good enough to frame, and remind oneself to stay on track, stay the course:D

[oasis]

Looks close enough to my car. :laugh:

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/3669/rearqtrlh6.jpg

:cool:

[wrenchnride247]

Oasis, I think Martin has you beat... He's got a German license plate:rolleyes: :laugh:

[Wally]

Looks close enough to my car. :laugh:


Ditto :D

http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/37415.jpg

Plus, our cars are AIRCOOLED ! Big difference IMnot-soHO hihi.

[dirk.Gysbrechts]

awesome car Walter...and i mean it!!!!!!!!!!!:)

[chug_A_bug]

they are all sweet cars guys... Wally what did you get on the Dyno?? whats the specs on that car??


Chris.

[Wally]

Tnx Dirk, and yours too of course!

Chris, I 'll update my 'q's about Wally's ride' thread so this thread can stay OT ;)

http://www.germanlook.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=5569

[oasis]

Martin has you beat... He's got a German license plate
:trophy: :D

Ditto [on looking close to Martin Botts 1303]
I have always admired your car, too. I love your smart looking wheels. :agree: :agree:

[Wally]

Thanks, but my car is actually very near stock (except for the wheels and wider fenders) on the outside!
It shows just how little is needed...and also shows that a german'look' is more about under the skin than exterior 'looks'. Its more subtle IMO and has some qualities of a 'sleeper' also.

But your right also when you say that 'wheels maketh the car' :D
(BTW before the 18", I actually had the same wheels as Martins car, only before he did :p )

[Scotts73SB]

Unlimited Cash and skills...
This is pretty much Germanlook overkill..
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=386105

[chug_A_bug]

that's thing is soo Sweet not over kill to me :)

[Axl]

Nice square , but it is built for straight line racing , and not much for handling (at least thats what I got from reading the ad). GL's are more about the handling and power , not just power .

[oasis]

I agree it isn't built for turns but I do like the fuel cell. Some day I want to get a similar contraption from those folks. :)

[ricola]

I don't know why he says all that about it being built for straight line speed... I think that is just to appeal to more people, when it was built it was very much for handling, hence the double wishbone front end, big brakes etc etc, a long way from your typical 1/4 mile racer...

Rich

[kodee]

my car is ver much like wally's. I have a completely stock body, boxster 16x6 & 16x7's under all stock fenders on a 67. it has a t1 engine (2110) with msd, and a built box. it still has full bumpers and even has empi bumper extensions, however somehow it doesn't look really funky. but back to the topic at hand, to me German Look is more or less each individuals perception of what their ideal modern, we'll say 2006 model vw would be. if they want painted or CF bumpers and trim, that's cool, no trim, or even chrome trim. great big brakes, airdams, wings, it's all about what looks good, while having FUNCTION. i've yet to see a CL that has a huge 10" tach and 22's just to have it, everything fits in it's place, and belongs there. it's all about having what you need, and not what you don't.

[chug_A_bug]

Very NICE
love the paint

[kodee]

yup, that's good ole zenith blue...

[Veedub]

Could this pass as a form of German Look?
If I take my 2 tone painted bug, lower the bug to a nice stance. Put some type of rim on it that everyone kind of hates, baja rims that are 15x5's and 15x6's, that stick out kind of, so when its lowerd it has that squated "I dont give a.... " look? If not what would it be considered?

I seen a black slammed baja an some type of blue beetle slammed, which gave me the idea.

[1303nic]

I believe the german look is left alot to personality. I do believe it is about upgrades and mods, but is also down to person style. i believe my car to be german look but that is my personal opinion sum1 else could look @ it and think its jus a boy racer car. Mine is original gold dechromed with a kamei front spoiler, and wide steels not porsche or after market wheels. Although i have a engine uprade on the way mine is still standard with just a disk brake conversion and lowered 2"

To me German look is incorporating old-skool styling wit new-skool technology and upgrades.

sorry bout pictures unfortunatly haven't had chance to take some better ones.

[tumba]

My contribution to the GL society :)

[Thumper]

Very nice Tumba. I like the style you are going for.

Not many German lookers in my neighbourhood, and the interpretation is more simple. I see a few with VW relatives wheels on as a start. Vanagon or VW busses, Audi TT rims on one.

I think 'function dictates the form' is the right idea. Modern twist to the old shape. I love the watercooled engine, although I run an aircooled myself. But i like the Subaru solution, even a rotary will be fine;)

[blitzvw]

i worked in germany for a while and asked some of the lads there what they thought german look was and they said in as many words that what they were after was as much power and handling as they could get past the inspectors in something that didn't look like their dad's bug. They used porshe and other german marques because they represented the pinnacle of engineering at the time and because german parts are naturaly very available in germany. It's interesting that many younger germans don't mind using parts from other marques if the kit is better engineered (or perceived as).

[Wally]

i worked in germany for a while and asked some of the lads there what they thought german look was and they said in as many words that what they were after was as much power and handling as they could get past the inspectors in something that didn't look like their dad's bug. They used porshe and other german marques because they represented the pinnacle of engineering at the time and because german parts are naturaly very available in germany. It's interesting that many younger germans don't mind using parts from other marques if the kit is better engineered (or perceived as).
Good story and thats mostly how I see it as well.

I've said it before and will do so again because of your story proves it again: Its NOT about looks!! The german treatment will just render a certain subtle 'look', but thats purely secondary. Heck, most germans try to avoid too conspicious looks just to be able to pass inspection/Tüv more easily! Sleeper is more true of the early pure 'german' cars therefore. The 'understatement idea' also fits the 'style' better.

The site should have been called GermanStyle.com or s/th like that :D

[volkdent]

My contribution to the GL society :)

Me likey, any further progress?

Jason

[tumba]

Me likey, any further progress?

Jason

Well, nothing at the moment. And that's basically because I'm about to move from Luxembourg to Sweden for a new job. I'm affraid it's going to go slow for a while...but once I've settled down I'll make a puch to finish it. There isn't much left to do.
Well.... I have tried out my secound set of rims :D .

For me German look is about style driven by perfromance.
I have tried to make my car a bit subtle on the surface :rolleyes:

[TSAF]

For me German Look cars must have a lot of high tech goodies, big brakes, amazing suspension set up, and the most important of all AIR COOLED ENGINES Type I or type IV. I do not care if their interior is luxurious or with a plain bucket seat. I only care about their powerplants. For me Subaru engines have nothing to do with the scene. I understand that such an engine provides good value, money towards hp but the car is not GERMAN any more. Hard core German Look enthusiasts in Germany do not like this kind of applications on their cars. When you start cutting metal in order to fit an engine or something else then the car becomes a custom project or a hot rod. German Look scene came to surface because of the Kafer Cup cars, France, Austria and in Germany. None of the cup cars had Subaru or other type of water cooled engines. Once I saw a stunning 1303 convertible in England and it was powered by a 16 valve golf engine. I will say it once more: GERMAN LOOK CARS MUST HAVE ONLY AIR COOLED TYPE I OR TYPE IV POWERPLANTS WITH A PORSCHE FAN SITTING ON TOP. END OF STORY.

[volkdent]

I guess mine is Fun Cup Look then! Time to start a new website...:lmao:

Jason

[Steve C]

Hi

I hope our part of the VW scene never gets as regimented as the Cal Look scene, you have to do such & such (Fuchs & IDAs etc) to be a Cal Looker etc, I like the individual flair that many cars display on this site.

Steve

[vwdreaming]

its a little boring when the round peg has to go in the round hole every time :rolleyes:

[Axl]

For me German Look cars must have a lot of high tech goodies, big brakes, amazing suspension set up, and the most important of all AIR COOLED ENGINES Type I or type IV. I do not care if their interior is luxurious or with a plain bucket seat. I only care about their powerplants. For me Subaru engines have nothing to do with the scene. I understand that such an engine provides good value, money towards hp but the car is not GERMAN any more. Hard core German Look enthusiasts in Germany do not like this kind of applications on their cars. When you start cutting metal in order to fit an engine or something else then the car becomes a custom project or a hot rod. German Look scene came to surface because of the Kafer Cup cars, France, Austria and in Germany. None of the cup cars had Subaru or other type of water cooled engines. Once I saw a stunning 1303 convertible in England and it was powered by a 16 valve golf engine. I will say it once more: GERMAN LOOK CARS MUST HAVE ONLY AIR COOLED TYPE I OR TYPE IV POWERPLANTS WITH A PORSCHE FAN SITTING ON TOP. END OF STORY.


A lot of people are talking in this forum about how german look is not regimented , and has the freedom to do a lot of different things . I like the ability to try different things . Saying it has to be aircooled with a Porsche fan shroud or its not german look is very much a big contrast to that way of thinking . I want to put a scooby engine in a bug , so that means its no longer german? I think its time to pull your head from the sand and realize that not everything has to be just one way . This hobby is as diverse and diffeent as everyone who is in it . If we all had the same style with the same engine and the same shroud with the same whatever else , then this hobby would get real boring real fast!

[Steve C]

Hi

To me the German Look has three main aims, to make a rear engined VW, stop better, go better & handle better, to do this you are able to use components from other car makers, if your doing that your doing the GL thang.

Steve

[chug_A_bug]

Hi

To me the German Look has three main aims, to make a rear engined VW, stop better, go better & handle better, to do this you are able to use components from other car makers, if your doing that your doing the GL thang.

Steve

:rockon: :D

[72marinablue]

its a little boring when the round peg has to go in the round hole every time :rolleyes:

A round peg could fit in a triangle, a square, or a slightly oblong circle. It just depends on what day of the week it is.

[Wally]

Hi

To me the German Look has three main aims, to make a rear engined VW, stop better, go better & handle better, to do this you are able to use components from other car makers, if your doing that your doing the GL thang.

Steve

+1 ;)

In Germany I have seen really nice bugs that had a tuned 1600 type 1 with just wider but stock looking wheels which definately had the german-style all over them.

[Jim]

A lot of people are talking in this forum about how german look is not regimented , and has the freedom to do a lot of different things . I like the ability to try different things . Saying it has to be aircooled with a Porsche fan shroud or its not german look is very much a big contrast to that way of thinking . I want to put a scooby engine in a bug , so that means its no longer german? I think its time to pull your head from the sand and realize that not everything has to be just one way . This hobby is as diverse and diffeent as everyone who is in it . If we all had the same style with the same engine and the same shroud with the same whatever else , then this hobby would get real boring real fast!

:rockon::rockon::rockon:

[evilC]

The one overriding element that defines Germanlook for me (oh how I hate that description - GermanLOOK) is excellence in engineering both in the thought and the execution not in creating a style - the look/style comes from the engineering. Remember "God is in the details".
You could still throw all the usual components at a bug shell and not acheive the result. Alternatively, you could put it all together with the standard basics but with improvements along the way all to improve performance and that to me would be 'Germanlook'. If you sit there with the catalogue open selecting your list of parts for the 'look' then you are not a true afficionado.

[TSAF]

Sorry I did not write my opinion in order to create enemies. We are talking about the identity of a car. The identity of a car is the powerplant and in our case is air cooled. I do not care if the car runs on fuchs, bbs, cup's, standard iron wheels, etc. The powerplant though must be air cooled. I understand that a high performance subaru motor is extremely cheap in comparison to a high performance type I or type IV but when somebody fits a subaru and starts cutting metal from the car then the identity changes. It becomes a customized car.

[Steve C]

Hi

You wont make enemies here, we all can value each others opinion with getting our kickers in a twist.

Steve

[Bogara_ZO]

What do you think, where is the gap between germanlook and racelook? Just because actually all the "ethalon germanlookers" are for track use only..for me it means they are true race cars. What about the daily drivers? I think "the classic" germanlook means a street legal car inspired by the kafer-cup's cars and not a car that is as fast (or even faster) on track as a real race car. It has to be a powerful engine (aircooled or not is a big question), better brakes, suspensions and bigger wheels like the standard ones. As we are talking about a style, they don't have to be real time attack machines, enough if they have the modern/race feeling in my opinion. (I'm not talking about the 20" chrome rims and stuff like this) To own a GL means that you have a bug that is at least as fast and reliable as the nowdays cars on the road but much more impressive and unique.

[JIMP]

To own a GL means that you have a bug that is at least as fast and reliable as the nowdays cars on the road but much more impressive and unique.

As bogara said, maybe one of the most acurate definitions for germanlook, or a modern driving car under a bugs shell..

Friendly

Dimitrios

[TSAF]

I agree with Bogara as far as the bug has an air cooled powerplant

[evilC]

So, If it has to be aircooled then I suppose that a Porsche 911 would apply? (ignore how difficult it is to fit - that is part of the engineering exercise and I have seen Porsche engined cars in the magazinesthat are definitely Germanlook) Then if that applied what about the watercooled heads that are available on Porsches and then reaching a logical conclusion the current water cooled Porsche boxers could be fitted and they would apply (or not?).
Does it have to be rear engined? or will mid engine do? if that will front engine still apply?
For me as I said, it is little about look or style as those are too superficial, it is about engineering excellence. You only have to look at the main purveyors of German aircooled parts and systems to understand the philosophy. There are few others world wide that are in the same mould.

Clive

[TSAF]

I agree with the engineering excellence. It sounds nice to my ears. On the other hand I would never cut any metal from my car in order to fit a 911 engine in order to create "an engineering excellence". 911 engines fit really nice to bays and type 3/25 vans and chias because they have lots of space and you can avoid cutting metal from the structure, but beetles have to stick to the smaller 4 cylinder units. As I stated before my only concern is the powerplant, not the brakes, alloys, interior. The heart of our car is the 4 cylinder air cooled unit.

[volkdent]

I think of GL as being more modern, more cutting edge, which Porsche often leads, and of course they've switched to water cooling to keep up. Water cooling fits right into my idea of GL because without it long term reliability with big power is near impossible. My idea of the concept of this site is to showcase cars that can keep up with modern cars, not only in performance numbers, but also longevity.

Jason

[Wally]

I think of GL as being more modern, more cutting edge, which Porsche often leads, and of course they've switched to water cooling to keep up. Water cooling fits right into my idea of GL because without it long term reliability with big power is near impossible.
Jason
'To keep up' with...what exactly?
To keep with your example: Porsche only switched to watercooling because of environmental (read: noise, emission) reasons, not for longlivity reasons. I think they made some extremely potent aircooled engines, proving to us that watercooling is not necessary to keep 'long term reliability'.
I kinda followed porsche's idea's and can report they were right ;) :D

If anyone really feels watercooling is engineering progress (there is certainly a point there), why don't they use the waterboxer as the next step? Subaru, Honda, Alfa engines all seem to be used solely to get a bit more power from OEM engines, so they didn't need to think about designing/tuning that part (the engine) themselves...
Calling it 'engineering progress' afterwards is just wrong therefore imo.

But I love all of you guys as fellow gearheads anyways, so don't sweat it ;)
Walter

[Axl]

I agree with Bogara as far as the bug has an air cooled powerplant

It seems to me that this point is debatable , and is a matter of opinion . In my opinion , the GL is about taking a car that is 30+ years old , and bringing it up to more modern standards . Like said before , making the car stop , go , and handle better .

[NO_H2O]

You can guess from my screen name were I fall in the air/water cooled debate. But that is a personal choice.
What defines German Look to me? It is a simple question. If Porsche had built a Beetle (or Bus, or type 3, or Ghia, etc), what would it be? = German Look. If they had offered an RS, RSR or GT version. What would it be? = Bad A$$ German Look.

[wrenchnride247]

You can guess from my screen name were I fall in the air/water cooled debate. But that is a personal choice.
What defines German Look to me? It is a simple question. If Porsche had built a Beetle (or Bus, or type 3, or Ghia, etc), what would it be? = German Look. If they had offered an RS, RSR or GT version. What would it be? = Bad A$$ German Look.

:D^^^^^^^what he said^^^^^^^:D

[Axl]

I think a built-up air cooled engine is awesome , and I have no problems with using one , but when talking power and reliability , my personal choice would be a scooby engine just because you don't have to do any mods to reach 300HP , and therefore are not comprimising any reliability . Also , being a wayer cooled car , its easier to heat the interior with a heater core . That may not mean much to some of you in the lower 50 , but where I live , warm weather doesn't last too long . As I said before , its a matter of opinion .

[Jim]

If VW have ever decided to evolution an aircooled engine during the past years.............. then it would definatelly be a Subaru boxer:D

[TSAF]

If VW have ever decided to evolution an aircooled engine during the past years.............. then it would definatelly be a Subaru boxer:D

Not a chance. If that was the case then why the new beetle has a 4 cylinder in line watercooled engine and not a subaru boxer. Even for marketing sake a subaru boxer would have been more appropriate due to the sound and all but it didnt happen. May be they know something we don't.:cool:

[MX67]

Not a chance. If that was the case then why the new beetle has a 4 cylinder in line watercooled engine and not a subaru boxer. Even for marketing sake a subaru boxer would have been more appropriate due to the sound and all but it didnt happen. May be they know something we don't.:cool:

Wrong. They have built it on the Golf IV drivetrain. That's the reason. It's cheaper to adapt Golf drivetrain then building new one that can accept Subaru Boxer.

Subaru and Porsche are working together on boxer engines. Even today. Subarus even have some parts that say "Made in Germany by Porsche".

And I believe that even Dr. Porsche would consider Suby way as a perfect way of Bug evolution.

[Jim]

Wrong. They have built it on the Golf IV drivetrain. That's the reason. It's cheaper to adapt Golf drivetrain then building new one that can accept Subaru Boxer.

Subaru and Porsche are working together on boxer engines. Even today. Subarus even have some parts that say "Made in Germany by Porsche".

And I believe that even Dr. Porsche would consider Suby way as a perfect way of Bug evolution.

Even Toyota makes a deal with Subaru for the production of FT-86 which is a a revolution of AE-86 with subaru DOHC engine inside;)

[Wally]

Even Toyota makes a deal with Subaru for the production of FT-86 which is a a revolution of AE-86 with subaru DOHC engine inside;)

So...what your saying is that this fact makes a Toyota basically also german-look ?

This discussion is going nowhere...

[evilC]

..................
This discussion is going nowhere...

Yep! and I for one think that it was an enjoyable exercise.;) I like the informed debate even if it raises seemingly contradictory views. carry on........

Clive

[Jim]

Toyota has nothing to do with the germanlook definition,I'm just share my thought on MX67's post ...if this is not a problem...

[MX67]

I think we should leave that politics about whick automaker is using which engine. It's about cutting costs. Perriod. Advertising is seccond reason. Perriod.

And what is German Look then?

German Look is scene which continued with Beetle evolution when Volkswagen had to gave up.

German Look is making of GT3 or GT2 out of Beetle respecting Porsche philosophy.

[NO_H2O]

Everyone has a different view of what GL is. That is the cool thing about it. I can see that the flat 4 Suby is a fit in some ways (flat 4, rooted in German design) though it was never offered by VW. I can see the type 4 in one though it only came in a Bus/411/412 from VW but does have a connection to Porsche in the 914/912E. Some like body trim and some do not. Water is 8.5 lbs per gallon. Add water = add weight, add audio system = add weight, add anything (big wheels/tires, huge brakes) = add weight. Every action has a reaction. Does the reaction justify the action. That is what we all figure out as we plan our projects. How far we move from the core and how far we stretch what is "German" will differ.
There are many VW fanatics who say the Golf was the death of the real VW and many Porsche fanatics who say that the 993 was the last real Porsche. For these fanatics, there is no changing that view.
We own car from back in the day when one side of the family (VW) made plain cars for the masses and the other side of the family (Porsche) produced racing cars that wowed people and dominated their classes at races like Le Mans. As German Look fanatics, we want to blur that line between VW and Porsche and build cars that will shock people when they are beaten by a Beetle. We all (German Look fanatics) love it when the underdog lays the smackdown on the conceded one with the pedigree. That is the common bond for us. That is why most of us are here. We are all a bit different and our methods may differ but we all want to lay the smackdown on the pretty one with the pedigree and look mean doing it.

[Axl]

So , hypothetically speaking , I take a beetle and decide to put a waterboxer from a vanagon in it . Its still a VW engine , but according to the arguments made , not being aircooled means its not a VW . What are the thoughts on that!

[NO_H2O]

Did I say that? I can see the Suby mill in a GL. I'm not ready to do it, but I would not tell anyone not to. I see the connection to it. It's a flat 4 with German ties. I say do it and do it right. It's just not for me. But I do respect the Suby conversion, the STI version is a powerhouse. Some folks are diehard aircooled, I am one of those folks. But my way is not the only way and I know it.

[TSAF]

Some folks are diehard aircooled, I am one of those folks. But my way is not the only way and I know it.

Count me in please:cool::cup1:

[oasis]

Count me in please
I hope that includes the part, "But my way is not the only way and I know it."

That is a lot more civil and accepting than "must have" and "end of story" from your first post.

I can go to a 300-car car show and walk away saying I wouldn't own 295 of them. But I bet I appreciate at least 200 of them.

Everyone has their preferences. I would hate to see differences in preferences escalate into something where folks aren't welcome or at least would find this site no fun to attend. I saw that at another site. In the end, there were no winners. Just losers. And hurt feelings.

[volkdent]

I hope that includes the part, "But my way is not the only way and I know it."

That is a lot more civil and accepting than "must have" and "end of story" from your first post.

I can go to a 300-car car show and walk away saying I wouldn't own 295 of them. But I bet I appreciate at least 200 of them.

Everyone has their preferences. I would hate to see differences in preferences escalate into something where folks aren't welcome or at least would find this site no fun to attend. I saw that at another site. In the end, there were no winners. Just losers. And hurt feelings.

Amen

[andrimot]

Hello to all of there

i believe that everyone that has a german looker dreamed to have at least 200hp aircooled power behind him!
but sometimes dreams are affordable...
subys,mazdas,golfs, are agood choise power to money ratio but only at the starting point because at the end your bils and problems are more than an aircooled plant.
Anyway everyone is making his choise and everyone of us see and learn.

thanks.

[Axl]

I hope that includes the part, "But my way is not the only way and I know it."

That is a lot more civil and accepting than "must have" and "end of story" from your first post.

I can go to a 300-car car show and walk away saying I wouldn't own 295 of them. But I bet I appreciate at least 200 of them.

Everyone has their preferences. I would hate to see differences in preferences escalate into something where folks aren't welcome or at least would find this site no fun to attend. I saw that at another site. In the end, there were no winners. Just losers. And hurt feelings.

Totally agree with this!! There are many different styles for GL , and I can appreciate that some people don't want anything but aircooled . Just don't tell me that I can't have anything else .

[NO_H2O]

You should build your bad a$$ suby powered GL. I want to see it. Hell I want to take a ride in it. I hope it lives up to everything you dreamed it would be. I am sure it will be a wicked performer.I have lots of respect for the STI engine ad think it is a great option. But when you put a radiator in a car that did not have one, you need thick skin to deflect the comments of those who are traditional hard core aircooled. Most of the jabs are not that pointed and said in fun. Were I work, we bust each others chops every chance we get but it is all in fun. That said, if you let people know something bothers you, that is all you will get until you get over yourself. Then next time it is your turn. I work with the best group of guys anyone could ask for. If I really need them. They would all be here as soon as they could to help. We bust each other up like brothers, but we have each others back like brothers too.
Welcome to the family.

[NO_H2O]

You should build your bad a$$ suby powered GL. I want to see it. Hell I want to take a ride in it. I hope it lives up to everything you dreamed it would be. I am sure it will be a wicked performer.I have lots of respect for the STI engine ad think it is a great option. But when you put a radiator in a car that did not have one, you need thick skin to deflect the comments of those who are traditional hard core aircooled. Most of the jabs are not that pointed and said in fun. Were I work, we bust each others chops every chance we get but it is all in fun. That said, if you let people know something bothers you, that is all you will get until you get over yourself. Then next time it is your turn. I work with the best group of guys anyone could ask for. If I really need them. They would all be here as soon as they could to help. We bust each other up like brothers, but we have each others back like brothers too.
Welcome to the family.

[Axl]

You should build your bad a$$ suby powered GL. I want to see it. Hell I want to take a ride in it. I hope it lives up to everything you dreamed it would be. I am sure it will be a wicked performer.I have lots of respect for the STI engine ad think it is a great option. But when you put a radiator in a car that did not have one, you need thick skin to deflect the comments of those who are traditional hard core aircooled. Most of the jabs are not that pointed and said in fun. Were I work, we bust each others chops every chance we get but it is all in fun. That said, if you let people know something bothers you, that is all you will get until you get over yourself. Then next time it is your turn. I work with the best group of guys anyone could ask for. If I really need them. They would all be here as soon as they could to help. We bust each other up like brothers, but we have each others back like brothers too.
Welcome to the family.

Well , I had the same thing at my last shop . Having been there 6 years , I got to know everyone quite well . I have only been at the new shop for 5 months , but already the busting of the chops is happening , and I am getting to know the guys . As far as the car goes , I am currently looking for a base to start with . I am hoping to find somethinh by the summer to start working on . I would love to find a 75-77 super . Not too many around my area . As far as the water cooled engine goes - bust my chops , have fun with it ! I can take the ribbing and the shots . I am just saying don't be closed to the idea of an alternate power source and tell me my car is not a true VW because its not air cooled .

[NO_H2O]

I will bust your chops and expect that you will bust mine. Its all in good fun. My skin is thick. It has been thru some very hard sandboxes with hard core friends. GL for life.

[Axl]

I can live with that!

[evilC]

Ive enjoyed everyones comments so far. It looks to me like everyone has similar views with there own personal twist. This is great! It should keep things progressing. .................
just my 2 cents

I wholeheartedly agree and the variety that this spawns in practice is what continues to spark my interest. I hate the concept of going to a one stop shop and walking out with a box of bits to produce the definitive article (each time, every time - how boring). All the contributors to this forum all have their own views that should be welcomed but we all have one purpose - to make the best we can. Keep it up lads and lasses.

Clive

[oasis]

I would love to find a 75-77 super

While German Beetles were imported to North America through the 1977 model year, Super Beetles ended in 1975 ... unless you are talking about convertibles which went through 1979.

I'm assuming you mentioned 1975 as the jumping off point because of the rack and pinion steering which started that year in Supers. (My assumptions aren't always on target, though.)

[Axl]

While German Beetles were imported to North America through the 1977 model year, Super Beetles ended in 1975 ... unless you are talking about convertibles which went through 1979.

I'm assuming you mentioned 1975 as the jumping off point because of the rack and pinion steering which started that year in Supers. (My assumptions aren't always on target, though.)

You are right about the rack and pinion steering . I knew beetles went to 77 , and verts to 79 , but I didn't know supers only went to 75 . Wouldn't mind doing a vert - we will have to see what I can find .

[oasis]

You are right about the rack and pinion steering ... Wouldn't mind doing a vert - we will have to see what I can find .
Depending on your price range, there some nice 'verts on theSamba right now -- two are trying very, very hard to tempt me.

'75 Supers (sedans) are more difficult to find in North America. They were made in fewer numbers and they seem to be more vulnerable to rust.

Good luck.

[MX67]

Now, stupid question:

Can 1973' be converted to rack and pinion to be like 75'?

:)

[Xellex]

yes, it can :)

[Axl]

There is a '65 I am actually eyeing right now . If I buy this car I would most likely look at an IRS pan swap , or at the least an IRS conversion . Now , for the air-cooled engine supporters , I think I would be going the type IV route on this one . So what do you think would be better - a larger displacement (something well over 2.0L) or a reletively stock size engine (1.7 or 1.8L) with a turbo?

[NO_H2O]

Depends on what you want to do with the car.