Is there a simple but good 5-spd solution?

[oasis]

I have been reading here and on other forums for the past three days and I'm getting a headache trying to sort through it all. My difficulty is I see something that sounds good to me, then I find out there's a glitch in my thinking, or some custom work needs to be done, or a builder doesn't really want to be bothered with it and the price gets jacked accordingly, or ...

As a reference, my wife's Golf TDI is very torque-y and I love the way it shifts first through fourth with a fifth that allows highway speeds such that I could wallpaper my den in speeding tickets whilst going in low RPMs. My proposed car has been a 1975 Super Beetle (although out of frustration I have expanded my search to other candidates). The proposed engine would be a Type IV. My guesstimate based on varied sources and stories is the engine would have 130-160 HP and maybe the same figure for lb-ft of torque.

I've been told I don't need a five-speed. Well, I don't need another car; in fact, I don't need a couple of the cars I already have. So far, the only argument of substance presented to me is the power band negates the need to go with five forward gears.

But, this sends me back to the TDI. I can drive 65-70 MPH at something like 22-2500 RPMs* and if I need to get around a truck or ten, she'll get to 90 as quick as li'l ol' me ever has to. That's because the TDI makes its torque at 1900 RPMs. (* - These are estimates; I don't drive the car enough to know exactly. But the point I'm making is still pertinent.)

So unless I'm talked out of it, I want a dependable, durable five-speed which will bolt-in. I don't care if it's built or something swapped in from a Porsche or whatever. I don't think it should cost more than triple the cost of a four-speed -- especially when a limited slip differential hasn't been discussed. My budget is US$2500 but I thought that might include the LSD. The budget could be tweaked and I'm not sure if I need the LSD. After all, it's just li'l ol' me.

Any thoughts to what my options are (including likely costs as well as pros/cons)?

[cormac163]

dude i am in exactly the same frame of mind i have got loads of advice from everyone on this site about berg 5 speeds and porsche 5 speeds and it turns out both need slight mods done to the car to make either fit so really its up to you to choose aftermarket part from berg or porsche purpose built box. personally now i think if i was to make the mods myself and to get 5 speeds like you are saying for nice acceleration through four and an overdrive fifth to get you really pounding tarmac on the motorways i would go for a porsche box cause the cost of the berg is slightly more than a porka and even if you did need parts for a porka box in the ever so slight chance of it breaking i imaine the cost for BERG 5 speed parts are none too cheap either. anyway i know what its like to have o choose. i am still thinking should i chace it myself. i would like to know if there are some people out there that would like to earn a few sheckles by cuting my baby to size for a 901. please let me know. and good luck with the decision.
Cormac

[boygenius]

Well from what I have read the berg would be easier to install.

Berg.
1. Stock rear tranny mount.
2. You can purchase a new front mount. (weld in brackets)
3. Stock shift rod.
4. Berg 5 speed shifter. (bolt in)
5. Stock type 1 clutch. (no custom clutch cable mods)
6. notching of torsion tube and removal of front tranny mount.

Porsche.
1. You need to modify (drill mounting holes) rear tranny mount.
2. You can use the stock front mount. ( with weld in mounting points )
3. Custom shift rod. ( and a hole in the rear of the pan for the shift rod to pass through)
4. modified ( grafted 911 shifter)
5. Porsche clutch ( you will need to modify the clutch arm on the tranny?)
6. Same as for the Berg 5. Notch and remove...



Just a side by side comparison as I see it. :D

[cormac163]

sounds pretty handy then when you compare the two I think i am sold. has anyone an idea of what a berg 5 costs in the US?

Thanks for the comparison dude it make more sense when you see it in black and white.

cormac

[oasis]

Yeah, boygenius, excellent side-by-side comparison ... well, top-by-bottom actually, but excellent nevertheless.

I'm with Cormac163 in wanting to know what the cost might be. Being a technoklutz and not much of a DIYer, I'm still left with a few questions.

Berg, general »---> Are these able to handle the stress of a moderate (previously described) Type IV engine?

Berg, 5 »---> Is a stock Type I clutch enough? I thought it was necessary to go to some sort or stage of Kennedy clutch.

Berg, general »---> Is an LSD still possible?

Berg, general »---> Can one select the gear ratios desried? I don't mean specific ratios, but getting the desired results.

Berg, finally »---> Who does one contact for details?

If there are other options -- and there seemed to be when I was going through it -- I would still like to know. Thanks for responses!

[kenfyoozed]

theres a gentleman on th STF, i cant think of his name. but his avatar is a red cal-look beetle with him standing next to it. he runs a berg 5spd, ive talked to him once and he said he loves it. see if you can find him, he'll be one to answer all your usage questions. and i think he has a 1904cc engine, but dont quote me. ill try to find him , my work is slow, so i get to play!! :laugh:



ok so i found it for you, check out his site. pretty sweet.

http://www.glenn-ring.com/Beetle.html

[Bruce2]

I'm with Cormac163 in wanting to know what the cost might be. Being a technoklutz and not much of a DIYer, I'm still left with a few questions.
Berg, general »---> Are these able to handle the stress of a moderate (previously described) Type IV engine?

Berg, 5 »---> Is a stock Type I clutch enough? I thought it was necessary to go to some sort or stage of Kennedy clutch.

Berg, general »---> Is an LSD still possible?

Berg, general »---> Can one select the gear ratios desried? I don't mean specific ratios, but getting the desired results.

Berg, finally »---> Who does one contact for details?


Check out this topic on the STF where I did a couple of estimates for Berg 5s.

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=70607&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

To answer your questions,
There are some that say the limit of a Berg 5 is 180 hp. But a Berg 5s strength is no different from a VW 4 speed. I have a friend with a Berg 5 in his car in front of an engine that dyno'd in at 214hp. He drag races it, and its been fine for years.

Use a Kennedy stage 1. Nothing more is required for street use. Drag racing with slicks may need more.

LSDs are available in both swing axle and IRS, by both Quaife and ZF. Although the Swing axle ZF is really tough to find. As far as I know, its the only one you can't just pick up the phone and order. You have to hunt for one.

All the currently available VW 4speed gear sets work in Berg 5s. There are hundreds of ratios to pick from. I guarantee you will be able to get exactly what you need.

To learn more, call up Berg. Since Berg does not build transmissions, talk to your trans builder. I recommend Kevin from KCR, or Mike at Rancho.

[oasis]

Boy, these few responses really got to the nitty gritty. Thank you, everyone! :)

[NO_H2O]

Better do a Berg tranny quick.....I heard a rumor today that they are about to close the doors at Berg.

[oasis]

Better do a Berg tranny quick.....I heard a rumor today that they are about to close the doors at Berg.

figures :rolleyes:

[Wally]

Better do a Berg tranny quick.....I heard a rumor today that they are about to close the doors at Berg.
Yeah, thats not likely to happen to Porsche...

I went with a Por 5-speed solely because of costs and because I'am a DIY'er. € 750,-- for the tranny (and shift rods and couplings), which has a warrenty from an used Porsche sales garage. Many have good experience with that garage, but of course you never know.
Say 150 for shifter and bushings+ tranny rubber mounts (the high density type), 250 for the special flywheel, 175 for the hydraulic clutch and I'am done :D

Greetings,
Walter

[cormac163]

Hey wally how does the hydraulic clutch work

[Wally]

Hey wally how does the hydraulic clutch work
Don't know yet, still installing everything in the car. I'am glad the 915 shifter is in now and I could engage all 6 gears :)
I have seen many pictures of the Saco slave cylinder in an 90 degree angle (with respect to the length of the car), but could never figure out how they squeezed them in there, so mine will be mounted also under the trans, almost not lower than the trans itself, but appr. lengthwise along the trans case parting line.

Walter