Super Suspension vs. Standard Weight

[mattfaulkner]

Hey everybody. I'm new to posting here, but I've been reading for a while. I'm very intrigued by the idea of making a type 1 outrun and outhandle a good handful of modern sports cars. I'm looking to get started, and I'm debating whether a standard or a super would be better. I've searched for information regarding this topic, but I haven't really found anything.

I've researched that a standard beetle weighs 198 lbs less than a super beetle. Now, would this difference in weight override any suspension advantage the super may have over the standard. As you all know, weight is a huge deal. At 198 lbs less weight, the standard will not only beat the super in the straightaways, but will also have less weight to lug around the turns. So...will this weight advantage be enough to cancel out any advantage the McPherson strut may have had? What do you guys think?

I'm tempted to say that a standard with independent rear and sway bars (though this would add some weight), would beat the super.

Matt F.

[zen]

i drive a standard, but the super is a better performing car all other things being equal. the weight is a factor, but the suspension is a bigger one. go super if you can. nothing wrong with a standard though. mine will spank most in the straights and turns.

[oasis]

There is a 99 pound difference between a standard and Super of the same year.

[mattfaulkner]

Oh...I didn't think standards varied in weight that much. Maybe my figure I got of the samba was wrong too. Well, 99 pounds is a lot less than 200. If that's the case, the super is looking better.

Matt F.

[Superman]

The weight difference is debatable, I've seen it listed as, from 100 to 500 pounds.

I am very biased here but I know for a fact that the Super will out do a Standard in handling. When I was in high school, me and my best friend both had Bugs that were set up exactly the same. Mine was a 1973 Super, his was a 1974 Standard. We both had stock motors and a lowered suspension with aluminum wheels and 195/50R15 tires. My car would literally leave him behind by 3 to 4 car lengths in the corners and the smaller turning radius of the Super made it easier to maneuver overall. We would even switch drivers and get the same results.

The other factors to consider are... that the Standard has a wider rear track (like almost all pre-70's cars) and the Super has a wider front track (like all post-70's cars). The Super has struts (like 99% of modern car designs) and the Standard has torsion bars (0% of modern car designs).

I've said it many times before, the Standard is a great car for straight-line drag racing and the Super was made for autocross/corners.

[Superman]

Opps, forgot to mention the best part... the Porsche 924/944 suspension was designed based on the Super's suspension, that should tell you something there. That's also why the 944 brakes are so easy to adapt to the Super.

[vujade]

matt that extra weight hurts in straight line performance but I actually
like it for handling performance...makes the car feel beefier in the turns
and not so fly away like an early standard...


I have a super for German Look and a standard for drag racing :)

[mattfaulkner]

Okay...here's something else. I've seen some guys running a coilover type setup on their standard beetles. I think turbonutta has them. Basically, it's just a spring mounted around the normal sized standard shock. I assume this gets rid of the torsion bars up front, and gives the car a semi-coilover suspension option. Anyway, would this set up, with an independent rear, beat a super? I'm not trying to defend the standard, just trying to look at all the options.

Superman: Those are some good points. I wish we had more head to head tests to go from.

[mattfaulkner]

Yeah, here's the picture. I hope the link works.

http://www.germanlook.com/Forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1224

[Pillow]

>Standard has torsion bars (0% of modern car designs).<

Hey now the 911 had torsion fronts until '89!... If it is considered a modern design, which is debatable in ways.

Or trucks! Lots of new heavy duty trucks still use torsion bar front ends... i think because it is the only way to handle really heavy load capacities.

As for the real question, I do not have a good answer either way.

[Lazarus]

hey dude i agree with vujade about the weight advantage in the corners. as far as straight line build a good strong engine with nitrous so if you plan to do some light to light its there when you need it .you know, the best of both worlds. the car handles in the turns, gets out of the corner pretty well and will suprise most if not all pretty fast street cars at the light. you dont have to win a drag race to get the respect you need/deserve , sometimes one good purge of the juice will scare away any would be threats .

[Superman]

I'm not trying to defend the standard, just trying to look at all the options.

There is nothing wrong with looking into things and having a well planned project, that is the right thing to do.

There are several "debate" posts (here, STF, Samba, etc.) about the Super vs. Standard... but the [hard] thing to do [for an inexperienced reader] is to know what is fact and what is opinion.

Those "coil-over" shocks for the Standard aid the torsion bar front end, if I am correct because I've never really looked into that too much (being a "Super" kind of guy).


Basically, it doesn't matter what you do to the Standard front end, unless you widen the (front) track and decrease the turning radius, it will never be able to do what a Super does. This could be done with some wheel hubs and/or spacers plus a 'dune-buggy' type R&P steering rack.

Now let me close with this... I've watched many Käfer Cup videos and seen some Standards out race some Supers. Let's just say that "a Standard may not be able to out perform a Super (suspension wise), but it can be pretty darn close when the Standard's suspension is set up correct".

[Superman]

Hey now the 911 had torsion fronts until '89!... If it is considered a modern design, which is debatable in ways.

The Porsche company tried real hard to hold on to the legacy (Dr. Porsche designed and invented the torsion bar).



Or trucks! Lots of new heavy duty trucks still use torsion bar front ends... i think because it is the only way to handle really heavy load capacities.

Yes, my comments were specific to cars. Trucks are made to haul loads, not take corners.

[vujade]

there is one setup for replacing the torsion bars on a standard
with a freemoving bar and coil overs in replacement of the stock
shocks... Alex was going to use this kit on his Split...

http://www.red9design.co.uk/EZ%20Rider%20Kit.jpg

[mattfaulkner]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that coilover kit lets the springs do 100% of the work. No torsion bar. Are the shock towers strong enough for it though? I guess a cross brace would fix it. It looks like we need a showdown. Here's how I think each car would be set up.

The super:
-High performance struts (Maxx struts?)
-Bigger sway bar(front)

The standard:
-Independent rear (exactly like the super)
-The front coilover kit shown above
-Front sway bar
-wheel spacers (to match the track width of the super)

Is there anything I forgot? I know that more could be done to the rear. However, it shouldn't matter as long as there equal. The purpose of this test would be to compare fully modified versions of each of the two front suspensions, so equal tire sizes should be used. I think this shootout would be REALLY close. The suspension geometry may be a little better on the super at this point, but the standard would still have the weight advantage, and coilovers now.

Also, I noticed some comments on how the extra weight of the super made it feel better (less floaty) in the corners. Isn't this a downforce issue? Is there a way to get enough downforce on these cars to take the floatiness away...even in the most extremely weight reduced beetles, standard or super?

By the way, I'm really enjoying everyone's feedback concerning this topic. This has been very imformative for me so far. Thanks guys!!! I hope we can get to the bottom of this.

[Superman]

Isn't this a downforce issue? Is there a way to get enough downforce on these cars to take the floatiness away...

Lowered suspension (to bring the body's center of gravity down) and a front spoiler (to stop the air from getting under the car).

[vujade]

a roof spoiler will also help the rear of the car from getting light at
speeds

[mattfaulkner]

Hey everybody. (especially Zen) What are the chances of setting up a little challenge between the two cars? Could we get a stock standard and a stock super, do the above mentioned mods, and see what they'll do? Or are there already two members who have cars that would work? Maybe topline or red9design (sp?) would even sponsor the event by letting us use or borrow some parts. It's just a thought, but it sure would be a neat thing to see. It would certainly make my mind up on what to start with for my GL.

Matt F.

[Che Castro]

The macpherson strut suspension is superior to the parallel trailing arms. The problem isnt really with the torsion bars itself (they are still used on a lot of european small cars in the rear) but the way the wheel moves.

Thats not to say a beam front end can't handle well and go fast, it'll just never be as good as a strut setup.

[oasis]

Meanwhile back at the unladen weights ... according to the 1975 owner's manual, a standard weighs 1,973 lbs. and a Super weighs 2,072 lbs. -- a 99 lb. difference.

The 1971 owner's manual lists the weights as 1,807 and 1,918, respectively -- a 111 lb. difference.

A 1967 standard weighs 1,764 lbs. according to its owner's manual.

The only way there could be a 500 lb. difference would be if one compares a 1952 split window to a 1975 Super -- and that would be assuming the '52 was a svelt 1,572 lbs. Under those apples and oranges comparisons, a '71 Super weighs 55 lbs. less than a '75 standard.

And now back to the never-ending debate and the challenge to begin all challenges ...

[Superman]

The only way there could be a 500 lb. difference would be if one compares a 1952 split window to a 1975 Super

I think it's (for a weight increase of that amount) more if...

one compares a 1952 split window to a 1975 Super convertible

[Supa Ninja]

I think it's (for a weight increase of that amount) more if...

one compares a 1952 split window to a 1975 Super convertible


Ha, ha...Here's my opinion, back when my 1302's suspension was bone stock, I owned for a short period of time a '73 beetle (bone stock). I remember how scary that beetle felt in some twisties that the supa had no problems with. I also remember the first time I drove a buddies cal looked '66 around some mild corners. I thought for sure I was going to wad it up, that thing was scary as hell to drive in the twisties.
About the contest, if your going to beef up the front sway bar you'll HAVE to install a rear sway bar, or you'll have some serious understeer. I don't know how many of you'all read in VWTrends about the BFGoodrich G-Force challenge, but the contest should be like that. Try to keep the tires equal, and see what suspension will come up on top. All I know is when my Supa was road worthy it could out corner my 914 (former autoX car). My money is on the Supa.

Nick

[zen]

i would love to see some scientific study. problem is, i don't know anyone with stock VWs and then willing to do like upgrades is nearly impossible. if there are any ideas how to pull this off and people willing to help, i would love to see it happen.

No_H2O and i may be able to do some comparisons since we will have a weekend coming up of Dyno Day and drag racing (yea, i know but it is resto guys hosting the event and for some reason we just haven't been able to sway them to a coned road course but we may just set one up in the parking lot anyway :D), but it is far from scientific. he has a '72 1302, me a '73 standard. he a 2276 T1 with about 135-140HP at the crank as i recall, me 2316 TIV with 176HP (Dyno Day will tell us the impact at the wheels). he 16's with Ghia brakes, me 17's with 951's so i have to turn a bunch more wheel and brake weight. he MaxxStruts, me stock beam with Koni Reds. he stock rear, me 951 rear with Koni Reds. can't remember his sway bar, mine is a 3/4". not sure if he has a rear, i don't at the moment. i also have a much lower center of gravity as mine is lower, chopped top and i sit on the floor just about. we have not weighed them yet, but i am estimating about 1750lbs for my car due to fiber fenders, lexan, no rear seat, race front seats but add in wheels, stereo, TIV.

my bet his he would easily kill me in the corners and i would kill him on the exits and straights due to the torque advantage. we will see what we can come up with.

[mattfaulkner]

Zen: I'm excited to see what comes of that. I realize it won't be super accurate data, but at least we'll get a real, experience-based result from it. For the real-deal challenge, maybe we (as a forum) could set up a challenge donation fund for two cheap stockers (you really only need one engine-just swap it from car to car), and maybe get with the parts suppliers for part sponsors. I realize that some some pretty extensive planning would be involved, but it sure would produce some sweet data for us as well as future GL fans!

Oasis: I looks like the standard's weight advantage is shrinking by the minute. Thanks for the owners manual info.

[Superman]

The answer is simple, Volkswagen has never in it's history built a new car that wasn't better than the one before (their cars are constantly improved), the cars were always improved and one of the selling points of the Super was it's better handling (you can read and see that statement in VW's 70's adverts).

Comparing a Standard to a Super is like (suspension wise) comparing a Porsche 356 to a 911... the design just kept getting better and yielding better results on the road/track.

[mattfaulkner]

Superman: I'll be honest with you. The 1303 is sounding like a better platform to start with all the time. It may be 55 or so lbs heavier than the same year standard, but with a curved windshield (aero advantage?), better steering, and coilovers, it may be the ticket for ultimate type 1 performance.

[vujade]

Superman: I'll be honest with you. The 1303 is sounding like a better platform to start with all the time. It may be 55 or so lbs heavier than the same year standard, but with a curved windshield (aero advantage?), better steering, and coilovers, it may be the ticket for ultimate type 1 performance.

Ive just stepped up from a 71 1302 to a 75 1303 and with its Rack & Pinion
steering it is even another step forward in the driving experience. I am glad
that I chose the 1303 as a platform for another GL. On the flip, an early
standard cant be beat for straightline performance :D

[Dennis]

I have a 70 standard with a 2275 and a close ratio box. I'm in the process of upgrading the brakes to 944 turbo on all 4 wheels, from a ghia front disk/drum rear set-up. I'm also changing the 15 inch Fuchs wheels to 17X7 front and 17X8.5 rear Porsche Boxter twists. In other words it's a cal-look that is about to be changed to a GL.
If I had to do it all over I would start with a Super if what I wanted was a high horsepower track car. Not that the standard is all that bad in the handling area. It's just that the strut suspension is better when it comes to cornering. You could make some improvements to the front suspension on the standard and it would come close to matching the handling of the super. But with the super the improvements are already there.

The 55 pound difference is nothing. If you want to lighten up the car you can replace the steel fenders with fiberglass and reduce weight in other areas of the car. But the weight difference shouldn't be an issue when making a choice.

[Pillow]

... you all are making me think too much as well!!!

From my experience though the rear end was the weak part in the suspension of a standard IRS Beetle. Which would apply to a Super as well. The rears are just too soft.

Also on the Super to make it look "right" the rear needs widened with 'glass fenders and 944 wide control arms. Which is work no matter what.

Granted I like the 1303s curved window and short hood look. plus the truck is actually usable!

... Still more thinking...

[vujade]

From my experience though the rear end was the weak part in the suspension of a standard IRS Beetle. Which would apply to a Super as well. The rears are just too soft.

You could always use the 944 torsion bars or an uprated Sway away bar to stiffen up the rear end.

Also on the Super to make it look "right" the rear needs widened with 'glass fenders and 944 wide control arms. Which is work no matter what.

I agree completely about the rear needing to be widened on a Super...

Granted I like the 1303s curved window and short hood look. plus the truck is actually usable!

I cant agree with you more :D

[Wally]

there is one setup for replacing the torsion bars on a standard
with a freemoving bar and coil overs in replacement of the stock
shocks... Alex was going to use this kit on his Split...

http://www.red9design.co.uk/EZ%20Rider%20Kit.jpg

Weren't there some failures of the parts where normally the shocks go and then these coil-over suspensions are mounted?

@ Joe: good choise on the '75 03 :D
Just took mine out for a first test drive and with the now installed Topline sway bar and their urethane front suspension bushings (the lot) and boy does it handle. It doesn't feel scary anymore to drive 180 km/h (which is a scary thought also actually) :D

Regards,
Walter

[NO_H2O]

i would love to see some scientific study. problem is, i don't know anyone with stock VWs and then willing to do like upgrades is nearly impossible. if there are any ideas how to pull this off and people willing to help, i would love to see it happen.

No_H2O and i may be able to do some comparisons since we will have a weekend coming up of Dyno Day and drag racing (yea, i know but it is resto guys hosting the event and for some reason we just haven't been able to sway them to a coned road course but we may just set one up in the parking lot anyway :D), but it is far from scientific. he has a '72 1302, me a '73 standard. he a 2276 T1 with about 135-140HP at the crank as i recall, me 2316 TIV with 176HP (Dyno Day will tell us the impact at the wheels). he 16's with Ghia brakes, me 17's with 951's so i have to turn a bunch more wheel and brake weight. he MaxxStruts, me stock beam with Koni Reds. he stock rear, me 951 rear with Koni Reds. can't remember his sway bar, mine is a 3/4". not sure if he has a rear, i don't at the moment. i also have a much lower center of gravity as mine is lower, chopped top and i sit on the floor just about. we have not weighed them yet, but i am estimating about 1750lbs for my car due to fiber fenders, lexan, no rear seat, race front seats but add in wheels, stereo, TIV.

my bet his he would easily kill me in the corners and i would kill him on the exits and straights due to the torque advantage. we will see what we can come up with.
That might be fun. Zen you may be right about the corners being my strong point but I think that the 951 brakes on yours and the reduced wieght will meen that you will be able to out brake me on the entrance then the added grip and Massive type 4 will launch out of the corner far better, so lap time average would not be a good test of Std vs Super with our cars head to head. Not that I wouldn't LOVE to do it. I think 2 bone stock cars and use the same driver would be the best test. All the mods that can be done to the rear are the same for both cars. The differance is all in the front, both can be upgraded but the basic platorm of the strut front end is a better starting point.

[mattfaulkner]

Yeah, we've got to figure out a way to do stock (with modified suspensions) "challenge." I'm feeling like the 1303 is the way to go, but I can't help but want to see a real test. At this point though, if we don't do a test, you'll see me buy a 1303 with rack and pinion.

[Chris Percival]

A super has a lower centre of gravity anyway, so any weight advantage is cancelled out with reguards to cornering.

[ECBug]

Man, now I feel really good about my car! :D
If its the Standard look you like you could get a 1302 and do the same thing.
I like them both 1303 and 1302. I think 1302 is a better stock/GL car and a 1303 is a better all out custom/GL car. IMHO ;)

[ECBug]

a roof spoiler will also help the rear of the car from getting light at
speeds
Are you talking about the small one that goes over the rear window? :cool:

[vujade]

Are you talking about the small one that goes over the rear window? :cool:

thats the one :D

[zen]

like this one...
http://www.volksport.net/images/projpics/zen28.jpg

[mattfaulkner]

I hate to be the technical guy again...but it would cool to get some real aero numbers on all the available spoilers. We'd just need to rent a wind tunnel, and have an assortment of spoilers (front ones too) anad find out just how much better they are from stock and from each other. Wow...I'm getting excited already. Well, there's something to ponder at least.

[NO_H2O]

Just get in touch with Lockheed here in town. See if they can fit it in after all the NASSCAR boys. :D

[mattfaulkner]

Just get in touch with Lockheed here in town. See if they can fit it in after all the NASSCAR boys. :D

Yeah. :D

[Bugscandrift]

Im not really sure which would beat either, but you know that with a good driver, a car can do some amazing things. I drive a super, and i do love the way it corners, however i have also driven a standard and also love the way it handled. Of course i loved mine better, its mine and its on coilovers, but i think that a standard with coilovers would be a very nice mountain road machine.

[craazy Cooter]

Standards can handle pretty good. I just got a puma adjustable beam, and I seam welded the shock towers. Urethane shock bushings and kyb gr2's work good up front. I have a 17mm sway away irs sway bar in the rear, and a 17mm baR in the front. The beam is good as long as you keep it greased!

[Superman]

but with a curved windshield (aero advantage?),

I don't have the numbers handy, but IIRC, the drag cd was only slightly better. Yes, the curved windshield is more aerodynamic but the bigger area of the front hood makes up in drag.

[jimby]

ill keep you posted about our Aircooled Cup exploits as we are running a mixture of cars, standard right back to 55 and supers too. while we cant change the shape of out cars by adding large rear wings we will be fitting flat trays under the entire length and width of my oval, this was suggested by a friend who is currently employed by renault F1 team as an aerodynamic engineer. also whlie speaking to the guys that run the Uniroyal Fun Cup cars they said that the large rear wing make a big difference in cornering speeds, sometimes as much as 3 seconds on a large circuit like spa.

[Chris Percival]

we will be fitting flat trays under the entire length and width of my oval.

I have thought about doing this on my '03. Its really quite easy on a bug..

[Uber Affe]

oops capslock on..hehhe

anyway...check out my drarw-rings
erk...
I be smart ah..erk...me more smart dan you...me dink of first!
ok...just bein weird..I'm sure it's been tried before at least.

[vujade]

oops capslock on..hehhe

anyway...check out my drarw-rings
erk...
I be smart ah..erk...me more smart dan you...me dink of first!
ok...just bein weird..I'm sure it's been tried before at least.

I think that releasing the air in front of the windshiefd may cause lift
on the car... I believe that it would be better if the air could be funneled
to the rear of the car.... :agree: :D

[MattKab]

Nobody has mentioned the superior symmetrical steering on all Supers, and the orbital-steer characteristic of the short track rod found on the drivers side on all standards. I adore both equally but the 'Ultimate T1 experience' has a rack'n'pinion steering in my experience. I had 5 standards before getting serious with a RHD 1979 US spec Karmann Bug. I feel arrow striaght and stable at high speed, I look at weight distribution, but I'm not scared of weight. That's where the T4 comes into it :)

Keith Seumes biggest book 'Beetle' clearly states Karmann Bug's weigh the same as their sedan counterparts of the same year. I'm not convinced about that at all.


Matt

[Chris Percival]

I recently got my bug (1973 '03) weighed. Values are kg (lbs in brackets), includes my weight of 76kg (168lb):

FL 200 (454) FR 213 (472)
RL 246 (453) RR 279 (615)

Total 939 (2073)

Bug has a full interior, but lightweight front seats. A small toolbox and 5l container of oil were included.

[MattKab]

I weighed my Karmann '03 this morning. Including my 80kg (180lb) it weighs 1068kg (2354lb) My car has full trim, heavy Recaro seats, loads of added electrical stuff.. My Cup2 rep's weigh 10.5kg (23.5lb) each

This is with the roof back (1st time this year!) and the tank near empty. I'll repeat the measurement next w/e with a full tank and the roof up and compare the corner weights.

My corner weight distribution is poor (to say the least). That's what I've been looking at today. So many adjustables, so little time :D

Matt (now on a diet) ;)

[Wally]

Hey, that's fun; I should do that too!
I think I am also near 1000 kg as well...

[justdubbin]

I think I am also near 1000 kg as well...

WOW... I don't think Matt needs to go on a diet half as much as you Wally :laugh:

[Chris Percival]

My tank was half full. I had light 914 2-litre alloys. My planned cup 2s weigh much more. My weight distribution was not what it could be either. I think there is a fair amount of filler in the rear right corner, though that corner does share the weight of me and the engine..

[MattKab]

That's not a surprise, my rear right is also VERY heavy, not suprising as I've got the battery, jack, charcoal can, tail pipe, ecu, breather system, air filter, afm, alternator, fog light...which are all absent on the left.

My front right however is particularly light, maybe my screenwash needs a refill? ;)

I measured my braking system on the Arex also, devastating and now on paper, I need a scanner and a new thread..

Matt

[Chris Percival]

Oh something else I forgot to add, my battery is actually in the wheel well, so that helps.

Arex?

[MattKab]

AREX (http://www.arex.nl/maine.html?/dispmodule.html&1)

I use this a few times daily, for MOT tests, class 4 and class 7. Ours is older, does not use pc based software.

I have Polo 'variant' for work so on my rare Saturday off, I took my Beetle into work :cool:

I'll have to try and photo the print outs from the Arex and start a thread in the brake forum.

Matt

[Wally]

WOW... I don't think Matt needs to go on a diet half as much as you Wally :laugh:
I WILL remember that, mind you! :laugh:
Another day, another thread ;)

[justdubbin]

I WILL remember that, mind you! :laugh:
Another day, another thread ;)


:o opps :D

[GermanlookT3]

Weren't there some failures of the parts where normally the shocks go and then these coil-over suspensions are mounted?

@ Joe: good choise on the '75 03 :D
Just took mine out for a first test drive and with the now installed Topline sway bar and their urethane front suspension bushings (the lot) and boy does it handle. It doesn't feel scary anymore to drive 180 km/h (which is a scary thought also actually) :D

Regards,
Walter

Does anybody know where I can get those??? I would like a pair for my Gl fastback! (coil over suspention)
Oh and I think It all depends on the Suspention of the Bugs. But... My Bug is a super and it out corners any modern car anyday!