DS Pump [Archive] - GermanLook Forums

CLKWRK

March 15th 2005, 09:03

Hi Sandeep,

Both petes and my cummings pumps were bought from Ed schumer, petes pump is probably in good shape, lifter chunks went through mine, so mine is junk now.
I was told by crazy eddy that they are old formula vee pumps, they are nice cause they sit low and allow you to run a large fan pulley.
since messing up my cummings pump, i have tried the cb dry sump pump, which i still have and would sell, but i feel that its gears are too small for my turbo application. I have a deano pump now, which has nice sized gears, but will be a tight fit with all my fancy pipes and stuff back there.
I also have a ball valve on the feed, its a bit of a pain to remember to open it all the time, bad news if you forget. I'm thinking of putting a starter interlock on it to not allow the engine to turn over unless it is open.

hope this helps , bry

Wally

March 15th 2005, 15:05

Hi Sandeep,
Didn't remember your email adress, so I'll post it here:
BAS dry sump pump is appr. 435 euro's. It has 30mm and 36mm gears according to the catalog and oval hand shaped ports to minimize pressure loss and should be a quality item.

Regards,
Walter

petevw

March 17th 2005, 04:18

I also have a ball valve on the feed, its a bit of a pain to remember to open it all the time, bad news if you forget.

over the past 3yrs i've done it 5-6 times.
worst time was: parked under a carport for the night, and since it was outside, i put plastic bags over and around the velocity stacks. well the next morning in a hurry, jumped in the car, and fired it up. was still sleepy and thought, "wierd holding 2500rpm idle and oil light still on!!" :eek: finally woke up and shut it down (5sec). took the bags off that where sucked onto the butterfly's, and cracked the oil valve. fired up instantly with oil@100+psi cold, idleing 900rpm, no problem :D .

other times jump in, fire it up, oil light stays on, shut it off, open valve, no problem. i catch it right away.

usually, the oil light goes out as soon as it turns over, before firing.

Sandeep

March 17th 2005, 10:08

Thanks to all for the information. I gave BAS a call, they are out of stock, more coming in a month.

I gave CB Performance a call on Monday, and had their pump here on Wednesday ! Now that was FAST.

I have ordered all of my AN fittings and hose, hopefully will be here early next week. I did not order their solenoid valve( ignition switch operated) until I check the oil level in the case after a night of sitting. :eek:

Sandeep

Wally

March 17th 2005, 11:22

Cool!
Is the CB DS pump specifically for type 4 or is it sold the same for T1 as T4?
Couldn't find the T4 DS pump on their site, only the 99,95 DS pump for Type 1...
Is it a Schadeck?
How does it line up with the holes in the T4 case?

BTW, the solenoid valve seems like a good idea!

Thanks, I am looking into it myself also, hence the q's.
Walter

CLKWRK

March 17th 2005, 13:41

the t1 cb pump that i received was a Schadeck

Sandeep

March 17th 2005, 15:36

Yes the T1 pump is a Schadek 99$ USD, as mentioned by CLKWRK.

Its really a cool, compact little system ... pressure side has 32mm dia gears that are 21mm wide, scavenge side has 32mm dia gears that are 26mm long, so the ratio S/P is 1.238.

Oil path is as follows for a T4 application:

From the stock pickup location in the case -> scavenge gears -> out of pump -> remote oil thermostat -> remote oil cooler -> DS Tank, simple enough.

From the DS tank -> pressure gears -> transfer port in pump -> stock oil filter -> block of plate for stock oil cooler (block off plate is modified to let oil pass through as if a cooler was present) - > oil gallies.

This is how I am plumbing my system ... funny thing is the AN fittings/hose cost more than the pump/DS tank :eek:

I have a NOS T4 case sitting at home so I can take pics of the ports / case alignment. I'm using the stock T4 cam with rivets so I will have to take out my original T4 pump and take some measurements to get the T1 to fit.

Let me know what pics you need and I will post them here.

Sandeep

Wally

March 17th 2005, 16:25

Thanks Sandeep; that CB price is very competitive indeed.

I am very curious how the pump fits (or doesn't) into the stock cam and how the intake port of the pump lines up to the case hole. I don't think you can fotograph the alignment, but your personal report is more then enough for me ;)

So, thanks in advance,
Walter

Sandeep

March 18th 2005, 10:00

I took some pictures last night but they came out blurry ... I will retake tonight.

The T4 case pickup tube diameter at the entrance to the pump is 12mm dia, and the 45 deg passage to the stock oil filter is 10mm dia.

On the pump, the intake to the scavenge side is 15mm dia and the output to the stock oil filter location is 12mm, so the pump has inlet/outlet bigger than the passages in the T4 case.

Due to this, the pump passages line up well with the case passages, if you really wanted to, you could try to open up the case passages to match the pump but I will not. In the pics you can fully see the case passage from the stock pickup tube location through the pump scavange hole (15mm dia) and when I stick a pencil in from the stock oil filter location, you can see it through the pump transfer port (12mm dia).

From measurements with the stock T4 pump, the body of the CB pump is roughly the same height at the drive boss, and it fit the case nicely without the drive tange .. remember, I am using a stock cam with rivets so I could measure no clearance issues.

To get the drive tange to engage the cam, I pressed the gears further onto the drive shaft with a vise and some sockets, about 3mm total, in effect making the drive tange shorter. I can turn over the engine with the starter (no coil wire attached !) and pump installed and when I pulled the pump, there is no contact with the cam rivets. I seem to have about 1mm clearance from the rivets to any location on the pump.

The only item I have to address is to machine about 3mm from the driveshaft that now sticks into the cover plate, essencially making the whole drive tange 3mm shorter. I did not want to touch the opposite side of the drive that engages the cam slot. I will press the gears off and do this on the weekend.

The pump clears the BAS header by about 13mm so no clearance issues ! and no issues with the pump input/output touching the case. If you have a rear engine hanger bar, you will not be able to fit this pump. I'm using a Cup brace so no issues. Not sure if this pump will fit in a 914.

So looks like I'm good to go with the installation. Just need to install the tank, wait for the fittings/hose to show up, plumb the system and we're on the road for a test. Good thing the weather here is still crappy :mad: Hope to be driving in early April.

Sandeep

Wally

March 18th 2005, 13:05

Thanks for the excellent report Sandeep!
It sure looks like the way to go.

Greetings,
Walter

CLKWRK

March 30th 2005, 10:07

hiya Sandeep,

i measured my dynosoar pump, pressure side is 32mm long x 32mm dia, and scavenger side is 64mm long x 32mm dia.

2:1 ratio, thats why i like this pump, the scavenger side is twice as big as the feed to the engine, that way i can use it to suck foamy hot oil out of my turbo, and foamy hot oil out of my sump plus whatever air it can find in there. Its big though and clearance is a problem.

I have a spare cb pump, if you want to check it out. I get my fittings at the parker hydraulics store, not sure how competitive their pricing is, but their products are top notch and they will make custom stainless braided hoses for hight heat applications (close to header).

bry :D

Sandeep

March 30th 2005, 11:07

That pump is HUGE ! I'd really have to modify my BAS header to fit that puppy :eek:

I think for now the CB Pump will have to do. As soon as I get ready for the turbo, I will consider getting a turbo header built with enough clearance to fit a proper DS pump.

Thanks for the pic.

Sandeep

Sandeep

April 14th 2005, 14:16

Finally have the bug on the road and thought I would give an update.

The CB DS pump has solved all of my oil starvation problems. I can brake HARD, corner HARD and accelerate HARD and the oil pressure hasn't dropped below 25psi.

I found an empty parking lot and performed some large loops doing about 30mph clockwise and counter clockwise .... NO pressure problems :D I will check the case oil level when I shut the car down and then check it again after it sits overnight to see if I need a shut of valve of some sort.

I have the Cup brace mounted and can peel the tires in first big time ! HA and no wheel hop ! .... its like driving a totally different car now ... one that I can enjoy and not worry about that #@$#@$ oil light. :agree:

I have to learn to shift that 5 speed ... I've grinded 3rd alot so far :o perhaps time to adjust the shift linkage.

Now to find a Drivers Education class !

Sandeep

Wally

May 7th 2005, 15:14

Hi Sandeep,

Just a quick question about your pressure not dropping below 25 psi: is the mentioned 25 psi also the minimum pressure hot ( about 180F oil) at idle?

Thanks,
Walter

Sandeep

May 7th 2005, 20:17

Wally,

I get 20 psi @ idle when oil temp is 180F. At speed (4000 rpm) I get 60 psi @ 180F. (20W50 Castrol)

Cold I get 60 psi @ idle and up to 80 psi as I drive to get it warmed up.

LOVE this pump ... I have no need for a shut off valve as my DS tank is mounted very low. After sitting for the weekend, I measure the oil level in the case and it does not even register on a stock length flexible dipstick that I have. :agree: My DS tank has a 10L capacity.

Sandeep

Wally

May 8th 2005, 03:37

Thanks!

I was a little worried because of the small pressure side (21mm), as the original type 4 has already 24mm.

thanks again,
Walter

rip

May 24th 2005, 03:31

Sandeep do you think someone could clearance the Cb pump for use in a type IV that doesn't have the riveted cam gear? but using a bolt on gear instead?

I thought I read somewhere that a lot of clearancing was needed for type IV applications, that the pump body would be to thin. Even though this doesn't make a lot of sense considering that many others have done the exact thing with regular type I oil pumps.

So I just wanted to see what you thought, think there would be a major problem here?

thanks
Rip

rip

May 24th 2005, 16:51

I have a spare cb pump, if you want to check it out. I get my fittings at the parker hydraulics store, not sure how competitive their pricing is, but their products are top notch and they will make custom stainless braided hoses for hight heat applications (close to header).

bry :D

If I can use it, ever think about selling it?

btw I understand how the regular two stage works but CB looks like they really pack in those gears, plus the routing must be tight to have the inlets and outlets the way they are.

Clkwrk or Sandeep got any pics with view of the routing?
thanks

Rip

danielzink

September 25th 2005, 16:37

Winter is coming and I'm looking for a project to get myself in trouble with.........;D

I've been looking at a dry sump system for a while.

It sounds like we have to modify the CB pump just like the type oil pumps we put on our Type4 engines - no big deal.

I have a Ahnendorp rear hanger and LA Perf. jpipes and collector.
If you look at these 2 pictures - can you tell if the CB pump will clear ?

http://users.aol.com/danzink2/header1.jpg
http://users.aol.com/danzink2/header2.jpg

Also - what the overall depth of the CB pump housing ?

http://www.geocities.com/danielzink/drysump.jpg

Thanks !

Dan

rip

June 26th 2006, 13:25

sorry to drag this topic back up but now that im looking for another oil pump was wondering if you guys can tell me how the CB DS pump is holding up.

thanks
rip

Wally

July 4th 2006, 09:35

Sorry for the diversion, but I finally decided to get on of these:

http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/33860.jpg

36/30mm gears and with internal bearings! :D
I knew there were options...

Sandeep

July 10th 2006, 10:17

CB DS pump was working fine when I was N/A, but now that I have the turbo, the oil pressure is a little low when hot idling (about 10 psi according to VDO gauge), but the oil warning light comes on sometimes, not all the time at hot idle. Castrol 20W50 oil.

I'm thinking this happens because the pump is feeding the turbo as well :shrug

I must say that there are no oil starvation problems with this pump at speed ... oil pressure varies between 30 psi and 50 psi depending on RPM.

Wally,

Can you give me some information on the availability of that pump ? What does TP stand for and is it a T1 or T4 pump ? Modifications to fit the T4 case ? Price :laugh:

Thanks

Sandeep

Wally

July 11th 2006, 09:31

Hi Sandeep,

Its a dedicated type 4 pump, so don't need any modification; I believe he even asked me what cam I ran because of clearance his designed my pump with :eek:
These are the same ones that were used in the old 'Käfer-Cup' W4 cars :D .
TP stands for Thorsten Pieper, the builder of those.
Here's his 'profil' on the bug-talk forum:
http://www.bug-talk.de/forum/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=159
This way you can send him a PM or email. His english is fine AFAIK.
Price is about half of the similar Remmele DS pump, but probably about
4 times the CB pump :laugh:

Hope I have given you enough info ;)
Walter

verbeekb

October 14th 2006, 15:57

Guys,

Thought I would add to this topic. I am currently overseeing the build of a 100x71 type 4, 964 P&Cs, programmable EFI, DIS, Jenveys, Porsche 964/BAS cooling system and exhaust, mildly modified heads. The owner has a dry sump pump to go with it and this would be my first dry sump so I am doing my home work.

First off, we can't easily alter the shape of the original oil sump similar to the in-line and V engine guys with bolt-on sumppans do. That means the little oil that will be in the sump will be way below any moving parts. Porsche published a tech bulletin for the connecting rods, they should be notched for additional cooling/lubrication of pistons and wrist pin. I can see how this becomes even more problematic in a dry sump set-up.

In-line and V engines mostly have one or more OHCs, or at least a cam that is above the crankshaft. This will establish more oilflow in a dry sumped in-line or V engine than in our boxer engines. This still creates enough splash lubrication, even enough for the in-line and V engine guys to be wanting to reduce windage even more. Some go as far as to alter the oil return paths so less oil will find its way to the crank. Our boxers have relatively little oil travelling to the heads and most of it will flow back into the sump without ever touching the crank. The need for additional camlobe lubrication has come up here and there, so -expecially- because we cannot change the dimensions of the crankcase easily so its walls keep oil closer to the moving parts like it would in a 911 case. Additional oilers/jets for piston cooling/wrist pin lubrication are not easily fitted in a type 4. I only ever saw one case that had this done and it had an incredible amount of welding done to it.

This engine does not have a mechanical fuel pump or distributor drive, but those could be possible problems for others who are dry sumping with those parts in place.

I know a type 1 with additional sump will run considerably hotter (no exact data) when ran with an oil level upto about the original oil pick up vs. stock configuration.

We have the Schadek pump. I enlarged the exhaust ports of the pressure side to 11mm. This pump still does not make me very happy. I am leaning towards recommending a 2-stage Autocraft pump but any info/experiences with quality DS pumps is welcome. I am also leaning towards wet sump in this case. This is a non track driven Bus.

Any thoughts or data on this would be greatly appreciated.

Brian

www.karrera.net

Wally

October 14th 2006, 17:20

Porsche published a tech bulletin for the connecting rods, they should be notched for additional cooling/lubrication of pistons and wrist pin. I can see how this becomes even more problematic in a dry sump set-up.

Why do you think so?

This engine does not have a mechanical fuel pump or distributor drive, but those could be possible problems for others who are dry sumping with those parts in place.

Again, why do you think this is the case?

I know a type 1 with additional sump will run considerably hotter (no exact data) when ran with an oil level upto about the original oil pick up vs. stock configuration.

That seems very odd? again I don't understand this or heard of anybody with the same problem :confused:

I am also leaning towards wet sump in this case. This is a non track driven Bus.
Brian
I agree on the latter tho :) I don't see the 'need' for DS in his application either.
In general, I think you 'overthink' the whole thing too much. From others experience, the DS - even with that pump - works very well as is imho ;-)

Best of luck with the build,
Walter

verbeekb

October 14th 2006, 20:38

Hi Walter, how are you? I was thinking of giving you a call on this one, but this works just as well :)

I don't -think- Porsche published a tech bulletin about notching both sides of the connecting rods in 914-4 engines, it's a fact. VW came with a similar bulletin about 12 years later I think. I have the original Porsche bulletin in my archive (twice) but as you know it's somewhat hard to get to :) The VW version of the bulletin also covers a change in P&C clearance and the elimination of the paper and alloy gaskets on the cylinders for all later model Baywindows and all type 4 powered Vanagons. I think they even came with a spacer to restore CR. The notches -three per conn. rod side- are needed for additional piston cooling, according to the bulletins of both Porsche and Volkswagen.

As far as the distributor drive and original mechanical fuel pump (which we are not using) are concerned: I am only saying that there -could/might- be problems in a dry sump set-up, lubrication problems obviously. I just don't believe that the addition of a dry sump pump and a tank is a complete and well thought out way of doing this, there must be more to the story. If no additional modifications are required then I would like to learn about that as well. There seem to be plenty of mods required in non VW engines that are converted to dry sump and we have very little room to do so (not easy to alter crank case dimensions, not easy to install additional oilers for pistons and cam lobes), but that does not automatically mean we can get away with it. One solution might be to modify the scavenge pick up so there will be more oil in the sump at all times.

The temperature difference between stock type 1 configuration VS Gene Berg additional sump, both running approx. same amount of oil, gave me higher temps in a few rough field tests, again, no accurate data, just an observation, this translates very easily to a dry sump set up, not a conclusion, just something to think about.

So far the only advantages of dry sumping I can think about is the constant supply of oil under -severe- driving conditions (if the tank is narrow/high enough), and the additional oil quantity. Assuming we will go for true full flow filtering and and external cooler, there are realy no other benefits (ok, windage issues perhaps, but that is of little importance in this case).

Overthinking the issue, yeah, you may be right on that one, but see, this is not a low budget project, it deserves the right attention and it is not my engine, I have to be more than just sure. This engine needs to be torquey, ultra reliable and will stay in that Bus pretty much forever, it's not a test bed.

Cheers,

Brian

www.karrera.net

skywalker

October 15th 2006, 12:29

I agree on the latter tho :) I don't see the 'need' for DS in his application either.
In general, I think you 'overthink' the whole thing too much. From others experience, the DS - even with that
pump - works very well as is imho ;-)

Hi Walter,

Thanks for your reply.
We are trying to find out what is the best solution for my type 4. DS in my situation is not needed. I agree on that,
but is DS the best solution or not, and if yes, which part are the best and should we use? That's what is important to us.

Funny to read from your hand that Brian and I ‘over think’ it to much. If there is one person who will not affiliate anything
without hard evidence, it’s you. Others experience with DS and the Schadek pump is just not enough for us this time. We
want to know for sure. Let us just this one time. ;)

Luuk

Wally

October 15th 2006, 15:08

We are trying to find out what is the best solution for my type 4. DS in my situation is not needed. I agree on that,
but is DS the best solution or not,

IMHO, DS is always best. There are several reasons why you don't often see it tho. Complexity and cost are one and wet sump being 'enough' in most applications is another.
Funny thing is, the one reason Brian mentioned as a minor one: windage advantages of DS, is a pretty major one for me. IMO, the bigger the engine and the higher the rpm's, the more windage becomes an issue that DS can help with. I think the windage advantages of DS will give a few hp's extra as an end result (the extra gears cost hp first..)

and if yes, which part are the best and should we use? That's what is important to us.

Well, a rough guide is 'you get what you pay for'. Cost of different DS pump I have adressed in the earlier posts as you may have read :rolleyes:

Funny to read from your hand that Brian and I ‘over think’ it to much. If there is one person who will not affiliate anything without hard evidence, it’s you.

Well, then that should tell you something :p No, but seriously, its just my opinion on an internet forum. For real info, ask a professional who's business is it to warrent his engines and backed up by hundreds of builds. I am just as a hobbyist.

Others experience with DS and the Schadek pump is just not enough for us this time.

Thats too bad. I regard others experience very highly, depending of course who's it is, but in general, I think theory is highly overrated and real life experiences of actual users count for everything in my book...
Therefore, I take for instance Sandeep's descriptions of his experiences very serieus and regard them as highly valuable, especially since fellow hobbyists like Sandeep have NO alternative motives (commercial ones for instance) to make up story's or tell it any other way than as it really is.

We want to know for sure.

Sorry, no guarentees when you build something yourself. Also, there are too many variables to be sure of anything when you are tuning at this level with some of these unique parts.

We both know what the person who designed your engine does for a living and what his experience and skills are. Then ask yourself this: when the person designing this combo chose these exact parts, you can either trust his judgement or don't and alter parts of the combo. If you choose the latter option, thats fine also but the question of wanting to be sure gets a little academic then in my book :rolleyes:

Regardless, it will probably be an awesome engine anyways :D
Best regards,
Walter

skywalker

October 15th 2006, 17:32

Thanks again Walter for your comment.

Porsche and VW published a tech bulletin about notching both sides of the connecting rods in 914-4 engines as Brian mentioned. That’s in wet sump conditions! Is there enough oil in dry-sump set-up for i.g. the additional piston cooling? That’s what worries us too.

... its just my opinion on an internet forum. For real info, ask a professional who's business is it to warrent his engines and backed up by hundreds of builds. I am just as a hobbyist.
We will, as a fact I already did. We will continue that conversation face to face on short notice. Anyway, we are also interested in the opinion of others, especially if they are hobbyists like you. ;)

We both know what the person who designed your engine does for a living and what his experience and skills are. Then ask yourself this: when the person designing this combo chose these exact parts, you can either trust his judgement or don't and alter parts of the combo. If you choose the latter option, thats fine also but the question of wanting to be sure gets a little academic then in my book :rolleyes:
True. I know and you know that designing an engine like he did does not stop when start building. Designing goes on when building. If one of us is an hobbyist, I am. So I am very glad the help Brian gives me and I asked him to do the designing part. I am only paying and learning a lot these days. :laugh:

Also, don’t forget the engine was designed for a beetle, not a heavy split bus. We both know the designer works a lot for customers related to race and cross. That’s his strength. My bus -when finished- would be happy on a race track I know for sure, but the chance the bus is going to see a race track is minor. It’s no wonder we look at the engine a little different then he did.

About being sure, you are right. There are no guarantees. Maybe I was not clear enough; I mend we want to be sure dry-sump is the best for my engine and my situation. That means we have to do some search and ask others at experiences. Like Brian mentioned he never build an engine with dry sump on it. For me that is a big advantage. Maybe weird to say so, but he is ‘clean’ in the way he is thinking and not going to let his course be influent by experiences in the past. (Experience are old solutions for new problems).

There will be a lot of opinions about DS is the best or not. For now –in my situation– I am not pretty sure it is, not even now after you typing “IMHO, DS is always best.” Sorry, I might be as stubborn as you sometimes can be. I appreciate you are sharing your honest opinion with us, but again it’s just not enough.

Regardless, it will probably be an awesome engine anyways :D

And that’s what it is going to be! DS or not…

Cheers,
Luuk

Wally

October 16th 2006, 02:28

verbeekb

October 16th 2006, 09:32

Your fear of the notching being different in wet sump as opposed to DS is one of those things I really don't get (part of the 'overthinking')? I mean, you do know where the oil for the V-notches comes from right? How would this ever be different in a DS application? To me this is really one of those 'non-issues' :confused:

Hey Walter,

I am not thinking that the notches should be placed differently. I am sorry if I wasn't any clearer earlier.

The thing is, if these notches were deemed necessary by both Porsche and VW in wet sump conditions, then, what kind of piston cooling/wrist pin lubrication do we end up with in a dry sumped type 4? I think that captures it better.

As for windage. I am aware it "eats" energy. So does the cooling fan, so does the transmission oil. The case of Luuk's engine is mildly fishtailed, something that seems beneficial especially with the lager bores. The crankshaft is not modified to reduce windage. In a Porsche 6 the hp gain from fishtailing and knife-edging is assumed to be about 10% (!).

Cheers,

Brian

www.karrera.net

Wally

October 17th 2006, 03:41

The thing is, if these notches were deemed necessary by both Porsche and VW in wet sump conditions, then, what kind of piston cooling/wrist pin lubrication do we end up with in a dry sumped type 4? I think that captures it better.

Hi Brian,
No, it was clear to me before you weren't referring to the placement of the notches ;)

I think we're getting somewhere here tho: I think that you think that the wet sump is partly responsable for lubrication of the cylinders right?
Sorry, but that is really not the case imho (think for instance windage tray in 914 2,0 application). Its the escaping oil between the rods and crank flanges that takes care of it. That's also why the rod sideplay is so important. Too much sideplay there costs oil pressure to paint the picture of what happens there.

To capture the jist of it: your wet sump does NOT lubricate the internal engine parts! Don't worry about it one second.
The rod notching was also only advised late in the seventies when there were only those really heavy brick-type T3 Vanagon busses on the market. Before there obviously never was a problem...
Those T3 transporters were so heavily abused combined with high weight and poor Cw that the engine/oil and thus also the pistons got so hot, they expanded too much and caused seizing (cheap cast pistons) in more than one occasion. Extra oil cooling was to prevent this. So, its not about lubrication, but only about cooling!! The final solution of VW was better cooling by introducing watercooling (wbx) soon after...
That is my reasoning behind the factory-advised notching thing.

I have actually never notched 2,0 liter rods in any 2 liter engine I build and I have done many many miles with them and all had way more than the factory 70 hp. Last one had twice the hp...and no ill effects of the alleged 'neccessary' notching. Most of them, I have done many miles and again, never any oiling issues of seizing of pistons... but I have always had good cooling not driving a T3 at 100 mph on the freeway also helps :p

Like I wrote before: I think its a 'non-issue' all together in anything else than a stock T3, but you had to let me write it all down again huh ;) .

Now, if I would ever build a turbo type 4 on a 2 liter basis, the extra piston cooling might be very welcome since turbo's make pistons very, very hot and lean conditions are possible very easy and very fast. So I want to try this piston notching someday to see what it does or not do, but I don't worry one bit that I don't have it for now :p

Greets,
Walter