4 or 5-speed? And wich one??

[tdc911]

I am busy building my beetle project. My goal is to mount a type 4 2400cc engine with 200 PK. I don't know wich is the best solution for the transmission... Should I stay with a 4-speed gearbow or mount a 5-speed gearbox. I'd prefer to mount a 5-speed one butt wich one? One from a porsche 911 or 914 or a vw 4-speed one converted to a 5-speed box.

Friendly regards,

Tom

[LLVWGL]

I am wondering the same. would it be best to use a 915 or a 901 or ?

[oasis]

I asked this question during my initial investigation. Because of the torque power band of a Type IV engine, I was talked out of wanting a 5-speed. The amount of money spent to make a 5-speed work (fitment and strength), would be better served by installing a limited slip differential into a 4-speed. On top of that, one would shift one extra time without utilizing the power curve--in other words, a 5-speed would be inefficient.

If memory serves me correctly, a 914 tranny would yield one forward gear and five reverse gears.

At this point, I'm leaning towards a 2270 and a 4-speed from R.A.T. when the time comes.

[thelazerviking]

glenn from the samba told me this

"Just to let you know the early 930 Turbos had a 4 speed because the 5 speed couldn't handle the horsepower. The 1978 930 Turbo had 280hp.

No experience with a Porsche tranny, but I got a Berg 5 and it handles the 180hp in my car.

If you want heavy duty.. go with a Bus tranny, but they're only 4 speeds"

[Bugat5speed]

Hi,

what I read here is (sorry to say this) near to nonsens.

1. a 901 or a 914 is nearly the same. The main difference is the direction it turns out. You can change the direction by flipping the ring gear. So it´s an old tale that you´re running 5 speed reverse gears with a 914 tranny. 914 has longer gear ratio than 901-gearboxes, but stand the same torque. They have the same housing and the same bearings, etc. The only gearbox housing that´s different is the old 901 before 68, which is aluminium cast and not magnesium.

2. The 901 and 914 transmissions easily stand an engine with 2.4 litre. I have a lot of customers who drive good 2.7 engines and have a few with 2.9 litres also. 250 Nm of torque plus 10 % is no problem at all. And believe in me. The German Look Scene here in Germany is bringing out very good type 4 engines.

3. What a nonsens to say that a 5-speed is more inefficient than a 4-speed. Who is today still building cars with 4 speeds? And why do the companies spend more money for 5 or 6 speed gearboxes, if they could handle more efficiency with a 4-speed?
Everyone that already drove a 5-speed in a bug would never change back to a 4-speed again.

4. What is the problem, that people try to give these Porsche trannies a bad name? They were driven over years in very good, fast and strong cars and I can tell you out of my experience that they are much better than each changed 4 speed gearbox at all


Martin Bott Bug @ 5-Speed

www.bugat5speed.de

[R2.0]

I think you need to look at a broader definition of "efficiency". On the whole it is cheaper to install a modified T1 4 speed than a 901/914 5 speed for the following reasons:

- The t-1 is a bolt in. 901-914's require slight body mods, fabrication of front mounts and linkage, and, in the case of a 914, replacement of the nosecone and hockey stick and flipping the differential

- Porsche parts are initially more expensive, and are rarer on this side of the pond.

Also, the 901 shift pattern is unfamiliar to most americans, and most of the ones who have tried it don't like it (I do like it, however). To get an "Ameriacn" shift pattern, one must go to a 915, which has the above problems in spades.

Personally, I am looking for a 901 since I like the shift pattern. One of the ways to get better acceptance of the 901/914 swap over here would be a bolt-in solution to the mount and linkage problem that didn't cost an arm and a leg.

R2.0

[oasis]

I would prefer Jake or someone similar with knowledge jumping in on this since they were the experts I was paraphrasing and subsequently called nonsense.

I'm glad R2.0 jumped in.

My understanding on the efficiency part was a five-speed doesn't fully take advantage of the torque curve a Type IV (presumably Jake's Type IV's). If a driver is shifting more often, that's less efficient.

A recent Wall Street Journal article reported on the "Transmission Wars" where today's manufacturers are experimenting with six, seven, and even eight speeds. Basically, two main reasons were sited.

The article quotes many of the manufacturers view this war as being tantamount to the cubic inch displacement wars of the muscle car era. In other words, it is to some degree marketing one-ups-manship.

The other and more practical reason is the necessity to have more gears for fuel efficiency -- which is not what I meant by efficiency.

The fifth gear -- wherever it is placed in the H-pattern -- forces one of two things in the 30-plus year old cars we are driving. (Remember, today's manufacturers build their cars from scratch; not retrofit something different into something which already exists.) It either forces there to be thinner (weaker) parts such that the extra gear won't increase the size of the transmission, or it forces other fabrications (outlined beautifully by R2.0) to become necessary.

Given the extra cost versus extra return of the five-speed renders this into being a personal choice. To say one choice versus another is nonsense is nonsense.

(By the way, I'm still looking for the post which warrants the defense of the German Look scene in Germany. I hope this wasn't meant to imply there is only one valid opinion.)

[vujade]

a 5 speed or a 4 speed are not going to be able to handle horsepower
any differently then each other. thats a load :rolleyes:

the strength of the tranny has more to do with the tranny case,
the differential, the ring and pinion and all the other internal pieces
inside. For instance... I 3.88 R&P is going to be stronger then a 4.12
or 4.37 VW R&P. A Super Beetle Mainshaft is stronger then regular
beetle Mainshafts. Aftermarket gears are going to be stronger then
stock gears...

The reason one would choose a 5 speed over a 4 speed it to be at the
right RPM range thru every gear, plus have a 5th gear for overdrive. The main
downside to having a 4 speed is that you have to space all 4 gears very
far apart so that you can attain high speeds. This means you will be in each
gear for a longer period of time then a properly geared 5 speed which
will equate to a less then efficient situation do to the fact that you are
not really staying in the proper RPM ranges with the 4 speed equating to
slower 0-60 times, 1/4 mile times and accerlation times.

I have owned a 914 with a 1.7 Type 5 and 901 5 speed and let me tell you
that it is an excellent tranny for a Type 4. Once you get used to the shift
pattern, it is a very fun car to drive. One word of caution, the 901 is not
a drag racing tranny. It is setup for track racing and autocross do to the
dogleg pattern.

[NO_H2O]

You can NOT launch a 901/914 trans. off the line very hard or it WILL break. 1st gear on a 901 is in the nose cone (supported on 1 end with a bearing and the other end is supported by a bushing in the nose cone. 2nd-5th are in the main case (supported on both ends of the shaft with bearings). You can give it all the hell you want to after you are rolling or in 2nd gear. Just dont hole shot it. The 915 has 1st-4th in the main case and 5th in the nose cone. The 930 didn't realy need a 5 speed as it had plenty of power to get thru the gears. After the G50 was introduced it was put in the turo cars and faired very well.

[Bugat5speed]

The 901 /914 gearbox is no tranny for the quarter, cause the 1st gear is too short and the shift pattern is normally not that what you expect (or expected in the past, as I can shift my 914 quicker as a 915, due to my new shifter).

Think that you guys didn´t read my info about my conversion parts. It´s already a long time ago that lots of modifications were necessary to be made to put a 914 or 901 into a Bug. Had these problems about 12-15 years ago and then started to build these conversion parts that allow a easy installation into Beetles (have a look at ULTRAVW, issue March 2005 for example, or VW Speed 11/2005, or VWTech, issue 18, or visit my site).

What are we talking about when you talk of torque and too much torque for a gearbox. I do agree, that if you work with nearly 300 Nm or more than 300 Nm and drive on the strip then it doesn´t make sense to drive a 901 or 914 tranny. But which type 4 (without turbo) that you want to build or buy (for money that one can affort) has more than 270/280 Nm?

But if it is really so, that you have more torque, then I can also healp you with the same conversion for the 915 tranny.
But be sure. We mainly use them for very strong type 4 with at least 2.7 litres (better 2.9 litres) and Turbo-engines (for example Subaru with 280 PS and 340 Nm).
If you don´t like the shift pattern I do accept, but all the other arguments can not really be accepted by me.

It´s a pitty that I can not let you test my car, or a customer´s car. Then I think most of you would change their minds.

Don´t want to make trouble. Hope that my English does not give the impression that I want to.

Cheers Martin

[Sandeep]

When I did my 914 trans swap into my beetle, it was very straight forward after doing a TON of research.

If you are using a T4 engine, why not use the gearbox that was meant to go with that engine ? Making a front mount is no big deal and the shift rod is a peice of cake if you use 2 U-joints and a piece if steel tubing. Use a Scat Dragfast shifter and you are laughing.

The gear pattern is OK ... I rarely use first gear in my beetle anyways ... I've got enough torque to start off in second ... and only use first to play with the Ricers at the lights.

I got my nosecone/hockey stick for cheap and the gearbox was reasonably priced.

Sandeep

[Supa Ninja]

I'm doing the exact same tranny swap as Sandeep, a '67 Al 911/901 with 914 gears, and I'll be running a stock 2.0L with the same shifter and two u-joints. I don't know how it will work in my 1302 but I have a feeling it will be a good setup since my 914 has a excellent gear ratio for what I want to do with the car. I have driven a bug for most of my life and having a 5 speed type IV is a vast improvement! Like Sandeep said research, research, then some more research!

Nick

[NO_H2O]

I will be doing the same coversion (when I get some free time). I have a 66 911 901 with 914 gearing/shifter and all the new stuff to rebuild it. I was just stating that it will not take drag style hole shots. I have known a few folks that had Berg 5's and had problems with them.

[lazylongboarder]

Just go with a G-50 :laugh: ...

If you are worried about not having a strong enough tranny, the 5 speed from the 964 C-2 handles 600 pound feet of torque and the 6 speed from the 993 S handles 800 pound feet in a 3200 lbs car!

I think 540 hp and the 6 speed will be sufficient for road racing (wait for it, Wait FOR IT)

LUDICRIS SPEED, GO!

[Bugat5speed]

Already thought that nobody over there has already made experience (good ones) with Porsche gearboxes. I´m happy to read, that some have already done the conversions and are satisfied with what they are driving now.
Don´t want to missuse the Forum for adverts, but would be happy to introduce my conversions to the US-market. Am searching for somebody (one person) who is interested in doing a conversion of a 914 gearbox with my parts. Would be good if he informed in this or other forums about the status of his work and give some info about it (pitures,info,comments,..).
Would supply the conversion at a price reduced by German VAT and besides would give a discount of 30 % on the normal price. The conversion kit (nose cone short, traverse aluminium cast, axle flanges, mounting plate clutch cable, clutch lever connector, 5 speed shifter Bug @ 5-Speed) would normally cost 1.078 Euro incl. German VAT. The one who will do the testing will get it for 640 Euro plus cost of freight. That´s about 750 USD plus freight.
Want to show you how easy the conversion is, how good it works and how good a car is running with such a Porsche gearbox.
The one who does the conversion should be a little firm to trannies, as he has to change the nose cone and flip the gear ring (if it is a 914).
Hope that you do not mind me making this posting in this forum. Don´t see another way to give you more info about this matter.
Please come back to my mail-address if you are interested (info@bugat5speed.de). See details of my products on www.bugat5speed.de, or try to get the above mentioned issues from the magazines.
Cheers Martin

[ricola]

the 5 speed from the 964 C-2 handles 600 pound feet of torque

Guess what I'm picking up this afternoon! A 1992 version with only 25k miles on the clock, a 6 speed was going to be a too long for me...

Rich

[oasis]

Making a front mount is no big deal
For who?
and the shift rod is a peice of cake if you use 2 U-joints and a piece if steel tubing.
For who?
When I did my 914 trans swap ...
Ah, now we're getting somewhere.
If you are using a T4 engine, why not use the gearbox that was meant to go with that engine ?
A 914 has a 5-speed. So does the one-year 912. All other Type IV's came with four-speeds, however -- the 411, the 412, the Type 2 (bus), and the Type 25 (Vanagon).

To answer your question beyond the fact there were more Type IV's with four-speeds than five-speeds, not everyone has a garage and/or the know-how to be doing a DIY conversion.

I don't.

Also, not everyone wants to do a full-on conversion requiring special modifications.

Again, I don't.

The more threads I see in the Transmission folder posing questions about this, that and the other thing with regards to any Porsche tranny, the more I want to shy away from it. I am not a DIY'er. I won't be spending a month of Sundays tweaking this and converting that.

Now, I will say I would prefer a five-speed all things being equal. And I would have no problems paying more for it. I even prefer the 2-5 H-pattern truth be known. (I test-drove many 914's before buying a Fiat way back when.) When I owned my Vanagon, I often wanted to take it to a fifth gear.

But it has to be something straight-forward to install and straight-forward to maintain.

I wish I had the know-how you guys have so my definition of straight-forward would be the same as yours. I don't. And I won't be shipping my car across the Atlantic anytime soon either. That would be nonsense.
I rarely use first gear in my beetle anyways ... I've got enough torque to start off in second ... and only use first to play with the Ricers at the lights.
So in effect, you have a four-speed, too. :laugh: I'm just kidding.

BTW, all VW's with four speeds are overdrive in fourth. And I'm not offended by differing opinions becasue I fully understand there are differing perspectives from mine. I would prefer my opinion based on my research not be called nonsense. I want to be talked into a five-speed when the day comes I get my 2270 or similar.

[Sandeep]

Oasis,

If you are looking for a bolt in 5 speed solution, perhaps Martin's kit is what you need.

If you have a buddy with a welder, the fab work is simple ... I think I spent about 10$ in materials for the front mount and the shift rod (not including the u-joints). You have to be comfortable with removing the engine and stock transmission by yourself.

I wish I had known about Martin's kit when I built my setup .. would have taken less time to get it installed.

Driving a bug with a proper 5 speed is quite an experience ... I'm talking properly spaced gearing ... not a close ratio 4 and then a big gap between 4th and 5th or a 4 speed with a huge gap between 3rd and 4th.

Either Berg 5 or 901 ... you do have a choice ... I've made mine :cool:

Its fun keeping up with a C230 kompressor on the highway at 190 kph :D

Sandeep

[oasis]

I never heard of Martin's. Although I don't know a welder now, I may get to know one. (Six months ago I didn't know anyone who could machine alloy wheels like my BBS's but necessity forced me into action.)

I'm still a bit away from drivetrain improvements. When I get closer, I will revisit this post and ask a few more questions. I'm assuming a 2270 will be in the 125-150 hp and ft-lbs range. (I don't know how the latter translates in terms of Nm.)

You also mentioned Berg. Do you thing their 5-speed is up to snuff with my probable engine?

Thanks for good information. :)

[JiI]

Anyone know a good source for a 915 tranny, possibly in Illinois or Chicagoland area? Thanks.
JiI

[martilo]

Hey guys! What's wrong with the 901 shifting pattern? (be specific, just trying to understand :confused: . thx!).
Also, is there a way to fit the 901 with a swing arrangement or does one absolutely has to do the IRS conversion??
thanks all
Louis

[Bruce2]

Assuming you are familiar with a Beetle shift pattern, 1st in the P 'box is where Reverse is in a Bug. 2nd in the P is where 1st is for the Bug. 3rd is where 2nd is, 4th is where 3rd is, and 5th is back where 4th is.
Finding 1st in the 901 g'box requires manipulating a lockout like the VW's reverse.

It is interesting that Martin's kit is $1300USD, while a Berg 5 kit (without the mount and shifter) is also $1300.

A ZF LSD for a Bug trans is half the price of the one for a 901.

[martilo]

Thanks for the answer Bruce. Its not that bad, the way it was mentioned was looking like such a big deal...
What about the other question: do i have to convert my swing axle to IRS?
Louis

[Bruce2]

IMO you really have to drive a car with that bastard shift pattern to know for sure if you can stand it. I was able to drive a friend's early 911S. I knew right away I didn't want that.

You have to upgrade your rear susp to IRS. Why would you not want to?

[martilo]

Why not? i don't know, i must be effraid of the scope of the project i guess... The fact is nowhere i found a real comprehensive, step by step, clear instruction of that transformation and the complete list of required matl.

In general, you always find hyper simplification of what a job like this needs in forums (here or somewhere else), web or books that I found (I am wondering about this one for a while and somehow gave up for now). Expression like "super easy", "in a snap", or the more gastronomic "piece of cake" are writen all over the place. I'd like to see things this way, but i don't, i must be kinda slow I guess.

I'm not saying that I will not do it one day, but not before I fully understand what the job means (if you know good ressource on the swing-IRS transformation, please let me and other like me know). I just don't want to end up with the insect guts spreaded all over the floor wondering how the f*** i can get it to work again...

Sorry if its off topic.

[petevw]

Anyone have a lead on a 1976 912E tranny? also known as a 923.

I've been looking for one.

[Bruce2]

Pete, is that g'box geared differently from the 6 cyl 915?

[petevw]

Yes, it was geared for use with a 4cyl. Its basically a 915 5spd with a 901 bellhousing. The 912E's were 5spd with a 4cyl motor.

So if anyone has a line on one, please let me know. Thanks :)