944 spring plates & trailing arms info

[Pillow]

A few newbie rear end questions concerning 944 stuff.

It seems that the torsion bars will go right into an IRS pan. Sweet! So will the control arms. Sweet!

Now what about the swing plates? Do you all use modified Beetle units or use the 944 units? aparently the 944 units are adjustable but this is fromed on by some people... Not sure why?

Which leads to the swaybar. The 944 has the weird bolts and it is normally recommended to modify something to use on a IRS pan, but I am not sure what?

Thanks for entertaining the newbie stuff :)

[chigger]

Adrian, I am going to tell you a widely unknown fact. The early steel trailing arms for the 944 and the bug have exactly the same dimensions. Identical units except for one thing, the 944 units are internally braced and weigh several pounds more than the bugs. The 944 arms would be great for off road, massive horsepower, or a split bus to irs conversion. They work fine on a bug, I am just trying to lighen the unsprung weight of the assembly.
The adj spring plates from the 944 should also work fine if the rubber bushing match up to the bug torsion housing. Swayaway makes an adj spring plate for the bug which looks exactly like the 944 one or close enough to be clones. The adj plates are used to weight balance the four corners of the car so it handles both left and right the same. They can also be used to adjust the ride height in the rear somewhat without having to reset the rear torsion bars. They may change the camber when adjusted.
The front weight balance on a super beetle can probably be adj using shims under the springs or between the strut and body mounts. On a beam bug it doesn't look like you can. A dual adjuster could probably be make using two beam adjusters side by side and cutting the spring pack in to and drilling new grub screw holes. If would not be much use unless you are racing or trying to balance my 325lbs to with the side with no passenger. Hope some of this helps.

[Pillow]

Awesome information Chigger! I really appreciate it.

I have been researching the rear swaybar mounting and it seem to be pretty easy to do with some minor welding work for the mounts to the torsion tube. Check out http://www.924.org/techsection/technical.htm for some pictures.
Also it seems there are at least two sizes a 14mm and 18mm in the standard 944, not sure what the Turbo ran. My concern was mounting the eccentric bolt, which it seems will not be an issue given this information.

I hate the EMPI kit. The mounts suck going around the tranny horns.

Still not certain if the 944 torsion bars can be used in the IRS pan, nor do I know the ratings on the 944 versus the T1 bars as stock. I know the T3 Squareback had heavy bars, but are they heavy enough? All I know is that the stock T1 IRS bars are too soft for my tastes and it will need remedied.

Thanks,

[kdanie]

Adrian, The 944 had several different torsion bars available. I just got a pair of 944S bars, not sure what year. They are 26mm and should be much more stout than the stock bars, I think they were 20 or 22mm. I hope to install them in the next week. I found a web site that showed actual spring rates at the wheel for 944 torsion bars but I guess it is on my home computer, I'll look tonight and see if I can post it. As for type 3 torision bars I think the square back bars are the most desireable as they are a couple of mm larger dia. Type 3 bars are not available in my area.
ken

[Pillow]

Also tomorrow I want to check on Bruce Anderson's recommendations for the early 911 setups. I figure a Beetle should be in the same ballpark and perform well setup about the same.

I can hopefully stay sober enough tomorrow to use a keyboard ;) Gotta love the holidaze. :silly:


Take Care,

[chigger]

I did some looking and the 944 turbo had 23mm bars. There are two pair on Ebay for less than $20.00. I don't know if they fit a standard 944 torsion housing and hence a bug or not. They are probably 23.5mm the same as the T3 station wagon. The ones Kdanie is talking about would probably be to big for a bug even with a T4 motor unless you are doing out right racing.
The only 944 rear sway big enough for my needs is on the M30 conversion and is rare and mega expensive. Whiteline out of Australia has adjustable from and rear bars for torsion beam and Sb cars. The rears are about 25.4 mm is diameter, which is the diameter which I will be using. I may go with their front as well as it is also adjustable and the same diameter as the Swayaway bars. Both are expensive mainly due to shipping.
I was hoping to go with the 944 bars as a cheap alternative, but they just didn't have the size I want to run. Hope it helps.

[Pillow]

Sweet thread! Since this has got off on another direction I will start another post and recap some of what is said here and a few ideas of my own Ihave been gathering.

[Tom Alltypes]

The 944 and 924 steel arms are a good fit to an IRS T1/T3 rear suspension. Use the 924 for the slightly less weight, they are not internally braced as the 944s are.

Use the 944 adjustable spring plates, with the trailing arms as this will also allow you to use the camber adjusters that is part of the anti-roll bar mounts. There is only a few relatively minor in installing them.

1) change the inner pivot bushing to a T1 on the trailing arms. Done, ready to install.
Note- the bolt pattern on the long torsion bar spring plates is different than the earlier shorter torsion bar s'plates, so get all matching parts and I suggest 924/944 stuff. Anybodies 26" torsion bars will work.

2) The adjustable spring plates from a 944 require a bit of clearance grinding to fit into the torsion housing. Obvious when you have them side by side.

3) The inner and outer rubber bushings are different on the 944 spring plates compared to the T1/T3. The inner is easily replaced by installing the T1 counterpart. The outer is a bit more difficult as it is bonded quite well to the spring plate. You can cut down the aluminum torsion housing cap from a 944 and it will then bolt up to the T1, or you can remove the rubber bushing and replace it with the T1 item. Maybe a wash in difficulty.

With these parts now installed, there is just one more step in getting the 944 anti-roll bar installed. You have to fab and weld on the mounts to the torsion housing, maybe graft on ones off a 944.

There are two clearance issues that you have to be aware of. The height adjusting bolts on the 944 spring plates are partially hidden by the T1 shock tower but still very useable. The other is the lock bolt sticking out the spring plate pointed at the tire from the camber adjuster/anti-roll bar mount. Depending on your rim/tire combo this could be an issue. It does clear on my combo on my Notch, barely. The offset of the 944 hubs gains clearance and a wider track in the 944.

Hope this breif overview helps.

[vujade]

Tom

the 944 rear spring plates are both adjustable height wise & camber wise?

Is this two seperate adjustments or one like a SwayAway spring plate?

[Tom Alltypes]

The 944 plates use two seperate eccentrics for the adjustments. The height adjustment works sort of like the SAW but instead of an allen bolt an eccentric is used. The camber adjustment is a smaller eccentic that replaces the bolt (and the holes are different than a t1) in the forward mounting location of the spring plate to trailing arm. I bet somewhere on the web is a pix of these 944 parts, my scanner is down or I'd upload them.

[vujade]

so what parts do I need to make this setup work on my 71 1302?
I was considering the SAW spring plates for height adjustment, but would also like to have the added benefit of camber adjustment too. Plus I wouldnt mind using the 944T brakes too, seeing as I am running Porsche Wheels.

[Superman]

Originally posted by vujade
the 944 rear spring plates are both adjustable height wise & camber wise?

Joe, this picture should help.

[Superman]

Originally posted by Tom Alltypes
3) The inner and outer rubber bushings are different on the 944 spring plates compared to the T1/T3. The inner is easily replaced by installing the T1 counterpart. The outer is a bit more difficult as it is bonded quite well to the spring plate. You can cut down the aluminum torsion housing cap from a 944 and it will then bolt up to the T1, or you can remove the rubber bushing and replace it with the T1 item. Maybe a wash in difficulty.

There is one more option here. You can leave the 944 outter bushing on and the 911 torsion housing will bolt to the Bug. The Porsche part number is 901 333 153 00 and I have attached a picture. This would also require the least amount of work as to not having to remove the bonded 944 bushing nor the other option of cutting the 944 torsion housing down to fit the Bug, with this part it's a simple bolt on procedure.

[zen]

i am getting ready to have to go through this in a couple weeks. super, any particular year those come from? i am going to check some yards.

[Superman]

My parts fische has it listed for the 85-89 911 and lists for $12 (ea.) but I don't have the fische for 84 and earlier although it's probably the same.

When you do this try and get some pics so we can put together a tech article.

While we're talking part numbers and interchangeability, the bracket that mounts the 924/944 rear sway bar bushing is the same one that mounts the 1302/3 front sway bar bushing. That's more just trivial.

[Tom Alltypes]

I made brackets to bolt the 944 rear anti-roll bar into my notch, then welded them in. The only thing it's missing now is...........ahhhh, more time to enjoy the car before winter sets in!

I'll get some pix of it's suspension on my site someday, dang round tuits.

[Superman]

I copied my reply to this post on the STF here.

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=54973

Originally posted by GS guy I gather they are pretty much the same as T1 in dimensions? Are the later aluminum arm bearings bigger/heavier duty? What's the difference between the early steel arm stub axles/bearings and later aluminum arm stub axles and bearings? Are they interchangable? Are the stub axles interchangable, but with maybe different bearing OD sizing from early to late?

The arms are the same dimensions but the 944 does have some design differences, internal reinforcement, although they will interchange. Yes the later aluminum arm bearings and stub axles are bigger. The difference is that they are very much heavier duty but I do not have the exact sizes for you. No the bearings nor the stub axle are interchangeable, between the early and late.

Originally posted by GS guy From reading here and elsewhere, it's my understanding that the early 944 stub axles can be directly swapped with T1 (into the T1 diagonal arm and bearings), with the exceptinon of requiring a different CV joint. Or, the whole arm, axle/bearings and all, can be swapped into a IRS rear car. But I'm interested in the bearing dimensions themselves - are the early 944 bearings the same as T1 inside and outside diameter, or maybe larger outside diameter to fit the 944 arms?

The 944 complete trailing arm can be put into the Bug or the 944 stub axle, which is the same as the Type 181 "Thing", can be put into the Bug's trailing arm. Yes, the 944 and Bug bearings are the exact dimensions... in fact they are the same part numbers. The conclusion is that the early steel 944 rear trailing arm is actually just a Bug arm with internal reinforcement, 181 Thing stub axles, and Bug wheel bearings.... even the 944 rear disc emergency brake shoes are Bug drum brake shoes. The 944 is mostly all 113 (Super Beetle) and 171 (Rabbit/Golf I) parts.

[Tom Alltypes]

Bus stubs are different and will not fit a T1/944 trailing arm. Just the CV flange is the same size as a 944.

[Superman]

Tom, you are right and I stand corrected. My assumption was going by the part numbers for the wheel bearings but I looked it up and you are correct.

I have edited my post above to omit this error as not to confuse people. Thank you for pointing this out to me.

[zen]

...2) The adjustable spring plates from a 944 require a bit of clearance grinding to fit into the torsion housing. Obvious when you have them side by side.

or maybe not so obvious. can someone point this out to me? mine fit in, but take a little persuasion via 4 longer bolts forcing the torsion housing cover to push everything in. not sure this is a good method, but seems to be working. that is until i realized i did not address this step...

...There are two clearance issues that you have to be aware of. The height adjusting bolts on the 944 spring plates are partially hidden by the T1 shock tower but still very useable.

the bolt heads will foul against the shock tower (where the spring plate nestles in over the stop). one fully and the aft just in movement. what have you guys done for this?

[Maynard]

even the 944 rear disc emergency brake shoes are Bug drum brake shoes.

Are you able to tell us what year bug is the same as the 944 emergency brake shoes?