Questions about VW1302RSis ride [Archive]

VW1302RSi

April 28th 2006, 01:58

Hi Loaf

Thanks for the comments,

“Can you tell me more about your coil over conversion for the rear”
The rear dampers are adjustable Spax coilover units that I had to modify. The problem is that the IRS arm gets in the way of the spring and the threaded part of the damper is at the lower end of the body, so I had two problems 1- I needed to move the spring platform up the damper body and 2- I needed very short springs.
1- I had a tube machined up with the same thread on it fitted it on the upper part of the damper body, with a slight interference fit and a bit of locktight. The load is taken by the original threaded portion as the new part is butted up to it. Make sense?
2- I worked out what spring rated I needed, the free length, fitted length, from there I worked out what the spring dimensions would be and check to see if coil bind would occur before the suspension bottomed out and as I was happy with results I had them made.

“As far as the Scooby engine did you rotate the intake manifold?”
Yes I turned the inlet manifold around 180 degrees so I didn’t have to cut a hole in the fire wall, hardest part of the job was making the alternator mounts.

”How hard was to wire in the ECU. The LINK system is piggyback or standalone?”
The Link ECU is a standalone system (www.link-electro.co.nz) it’s not a bad unit and it’s made here in New Zealand so back up is good. I didn’t have any issues wiring up the ECU but if you don’t have the experience or the skills pay someone to do it, a good auto electrician will make it look like it was meant to be there not an addition.

“Assume you spliced the harness to work with the VW?”
Yes and No, I made a complete new ECU/Engine loom, Battery and alternator loom and an Auxiliary loom.
1- The ECU/Engine loom only connects to the stock loom via the original feed from the ignition switch to the coil and this operates a relay that provides the 12V power feed to the ECU and engine loom and it also connects to the oil pressure idiot light wire.
2- The Battery and alternator loom connect to the stock loom via the generator idiot light wire and the main 12V feed that supplies power up to the fuse box.
3- The Auxiliary loom goes to the front of the car for the fuel pump, both radiator fans, water temperature gauge, tachometer, gauge earths and some spare wires, this only connects to the stock loom for a power feed for the fuel pump and fans.
4- There are also two new fuse relay boards one at the front and one in the back.
So I guess if you removed all the stock loom I would just need a power feed to the front of the car and the ECU and a couple of idiot lights to drive the car

“Lastly I will be snagging a 2.5 RS short block engine and hopefully mating it to a 2.2 heads and intake maybe some cams (depending on $$). How do you like the power from the 2.5?”
I’m not sure what Subaru engines you have available were you are, we have a 2.5L NA in the Legacy, Outback and Forester and a 2.5L Turbo in the WRX Impreza, so I don’t know what a 2.5 RS engine is? I guess the heads you’re taking about are the DOHC units and I’m assuming that you aren’t going to turbo it, I don’t know how much more power you would get from the DOHC heads?

At the moment I’m happy with the power I have from a stock 2.5L SOHC, but that I’m sure I’ll want more soon.

After reading your comment “How do you like the power from the 2.5?” You got me wondering about performance bla bla and that i'm at work and bored, so I did some checking on Subaru’s NZ website and Porsche’s UK site, and knowing what power and weight a stock 1302 has I came up with the following ********.

Stock 1302s
830 Kgs 44Kw 53Kw per 1000Kg or 18.8Kg/Kw
2.5T WRX Impreza
1430Kgs 169Kw 118Kw per 1000Kg or 8.4Kg/Kw
2.5T STI WRX Impreza
1495Kgs 206Kw 137Kw per 1000Kg or 7.2Kg/Kw
911 Carrera 3.6L
1470Kgs 239Kw 162Kw per 1000Kg or 6.1Kg/Kw
911 Turbo
1660Kgs 353Kw 212Kw per 1000Kg or 4.7Kg/Kw
And my car assuming that it weighs 70Kg more than a stock 1302 and has the same power as a standard 2.5L Outback then…………
900Kg 121Kw 118Kw per 1000Kg or 7.4Kg/Kw

Your right Loaf not enough power -down to the breakers its time to get a 2.5L STI WRX motor….. bugger I’m dribbling again that would be
910Kg 206Kw 226Kw per 1000Kg or 6.4Kg/Kw
Hmmmmmm more than the 911 Turbo- WOW I’m feeling light headed all the blood has rushed away from my head.

Well that was a load of ******** but it did achieve one thing…… its knock off time.

What a busy day………….

VW1302RSi

April 29th 2006, 00:42

Some more pictures added of build showing wiring, rad etc @ http://vw1302rsi.multiply.com

Feel free to check them out.

What-r-u-doing

May 6th 2006, 18:00

Scott

Have you used that pile of bolts yet or do you just polish it like you uncle would?

When are you taking it to the track?, is the Intermargue series still going?

Now that you have finnished the Das-brokenwagen will you be starting the U2?

Its knock off time so i had better go and wake the monkies up, BTY Dude we don't let riff-raff fly with us.

Phil

VW1302RSi

May 11th 2006, 06:24

Hi all this is for James from Conversion Perversions as i can't post pictures there, and it may interest some of you

The thermostat housing is part of the water pump and there are a few different types, on the 2.5L engine I have it came with a black plastic thermostat/hose neck that aimed the hose across the engine towards the head (oil filler side),
On this engine I used a 2L turbo thermostat/hose neck and that aimed it towards the flywheel, i just had to trim the dipstick tube support bracket (PIC A)
I used a flexible hose (i hate it) and clipped it to one of the sump bolts with a "P" clip and a cable tie and then did the same at the back of the head with a cable tie to keep the hose away from the exhaust (PIC B) and connected to the main coolant pipe (PIC C).
The hose part number is 25478 and it’s a Gates V/Flex hose 38x432mm the water pump is a GWSU-12A Grant water pump both from Repco, my suggestion is if you can’t find a thermostat/hose neck, then go to Repco and compare the correct water pump for your engine and the one I listed and if the difference is only in the location of the thermostat/hose neck mounting holes then get that pump and use your thermostat/hose neck as I’m sure you wouldn’t go to all the trouble of fitting this engine with out replacing things like water pumps, thermostats and cambelts etc, so its not like you aren’t going to buy one any way.
A few tricks on the water hose and thermostats if your going to try and keep a rubber hose in a position with a cable tie by pulling it, the hose may collapse when hot fit a hose clip over the hose and just nip it up and attach the cable tie to the hose clip this will keep the hose in shape (PIC B),
To help bleed up the cooling system modify your thermostat. You may have noticed a small hole in the thermostat (1.5-2mm) with a valve in it (looks like a bar bell) this hole is to allow some water circulation (and trapped air) and the valve is to stop reverse flow, what I do is remove the valve and drill out the hole to say 5mm this helps when bleeding the system and some believe it helps in reducing terminal shock when the thermostat opens. Also use only genuine thermostats no arguments only use genuine thermostats end of story. I have use non-genuine thermostats over the years with good results but in the last 6 years I have noticed that when fitting non-genuine thermostats to some vehicles that I have started to have problems with bleeding the system or open correctly and have massive temp changes on the gauge when the thermostat opens, switch to genuine problem goes away, I have tested genuine and non-genuine thermostats side buy side and they both open and close at the same temps, the only difference with these thermostats is the size and position of the wax and spring area.
When warm my car runs at 80-85c on the gauge all the time, in traffic, idling, motorway, once it gets to that temp it just stays there, ok I’m lying once it go to about 92c but it had been on the Dyno for over 2 hours.

Anyhow enough of my dribble, e-mail me James if I can help with anything.

Scott

VW1302RSi

May 11th 2006, 06:31

Phil,
When are they going to start drug testing at your work, they would need to before i fly with you guys.

Scott

Have you used that pile of bolts yet or do you just polish it like you uncle would?

When are you taking it to the track?, is the Intermargue series still going?

Now that you have finnished the Das-brokenwagen will you be starting the U2?

Its knock off time so i had better go and wake the monkies up, BTY Dude we don't let riff-raff fly with us.

Phil

Funny you should say that the 19 of May i'm going to the track and yes the intermarque is still going, you should buy the U2 off me or arn,t you man enought??

Scott

Mikey

May 11th 2006, 15:26

Scott,

I noticed you're running coilovers in the rear. Have you thought about a Kafer cup brace? 5 bar would be best but at least a 3 would help stiffen the rear suspension. The stock towers were not desinged to carry the weight of the car. Since now the weight of the car is now on the shock tower you'll need something to help make the shock tower stronger. And by tieing the stock towers into the frame horns you'll tie the whole rear suspension together. It'll also help with 'wheel hop'.

Here are a few pictures of my 5 bar brace installed. I purchased this brace from Lanner (Flat) at VDubEngineering.

zeroaxe

May 11th 2006, 15:37

Scott,

Love the number plate! Nice car you got there mate!

Mikey,

Ho-hum....now I wonder if I should change my 3 bar Kafer brace-build to 5 bar? :confused: :rolleyes:

Mikey

May 11th 2006, 17:07

Mikey,

Ho-hum....now I wonder if I should change my 3 bar Kafer brace-build to 5 bar? :confused: :rolleyes:

Look at it this way, if you're going coil-overs. A 3 bar brace is better than nothing, but from what I've heard the best way to go with coil-overs is a 5 bar brace. I really don't need a 5 bar brace with the set up I'm using now, but then again some might say I don't need to go Subaru. :laugh:

If you're going with the stock torsion suspension and just want to eleminate 'wheel hop' and stiffen the rear suspension, go with the 3 bar.

VW1302RSi

May 11th 2006, 18:26

Hi all,

Zeroaxe,
Thanks for the comments about the car and the plate was a bonus, it’s the original plate that came with the car.

Mikey,
My rear coil springs are helpers only they and they have a very light spring rate, just to allow me to corner weight the car and adjust the handling.
The only time wheel hop occurs is when I do a burn out it starts to hop after I have hooked second gear :) and I’m not the in to doing burn outs, however a rear bracing system is on the drawing board, I can’t use a Kafer style bar due to other components in the way. I have a system in mind and when its done I’ll post some pictures and drawings.

Look at it this way, if you're going coil-overs. A 3 bar brace is better than nothing, but from what I've heard the best way to go with coil-overs is a 5 bar brace. I really don't need a 5 bar brace with the set up I'm using now, but then again some might say I don't need to go Subaru. :laugh:
If you're going with the stock torsion suspension and just want to eleminate 'wheel hop' and stiffen the rear suspension, go with the 3 bar.

I have a question for you based on your above comment, if you fit a 3 bar “kafer cup type” set up to a std IRS rear end how does it work?
- Is the upper shock mount supporting the frame horns?
- Are the frame horns supporting the upper shock mounts?

Food for thought

Scott

Mikey

May 11th 2006, 21:17

Mikey,
I have a question for you based on your above comment, if you fit a 3 bar “kafer cup type” set up to a std IRS rear end how does it work?
- Is the upper shock mount supporting the frame horns?
- Are the frame horns supporting the upper shock mounts?

Food for thought

Scott

Hmm. that took me a second, but I believe I have an answer.

Both. The brace is there to help stiffin the rear suspension as a whole. The frame horns are not supported, and the shock towers are not strong enough to do what we're asking of them with coilovers. But, if you tie them together, and tie it back up to the torsion housing, it gives everthing the support it needs.

Similar to a roll cage. If it was separated right in the middle of the car, the front and back are strong by them selves, but since you tie them both together. They make the whole car stronger. One part isn't relying on the other for streingth, they more or less, compliment each other.

Does that make sence? :rolleyes:

zeroaxe

May 12th 2006, 01:18

If you're going with the stock torsion suspension and just want to eleminate 'wheel hop' and stiffen the rear suspension, go with the 3 bar.

Ok then. For now I am going stock IRS suspension in the rear. SO I will stick with my 3 bar set-up. However, I will make it in such a way that it can be 'converted' to 5 bar later if needed. :agree:

VW1302RSi

May 12th 2006, 04:59

Hmm. that took me a second, but I believe I have an answer.

Both. The brace is there to help stiffin the rear suspension as a whole. The frame horns are not supported, and the shock towers are not strong enough to do what we're asking of them with coilovers. But, if you tie them together, and tie it back up to the torsion housing, it gives everthing the support it needs.

Similar to a roll cage. If it was separated right in the middle of the car, the front and back are strong by them selves, but since you tie them both together. They make the whole car stronger. One part isn't relying on the other for streingth, they more or less, compliment each other.

Does that make sence? :rolleyes:

Hey Mikey

Your right in that the brace is there to stiffen the rear suspension and transmission mounting points. But I don’t understand your logic, and I was talking about a 3 bar not a 5 bar set up.

This is how I think a basic 3 bar set up works and why but it’s only my opinion and I have been wrong before, after all I am married.

The basis of my opinion,
I have never known a beetle to break a rear shock tower on the road, (if any knows better let me know) I have however seen bent and damaged frame horns, in fact if you jack your car up on the end of the frame horns you will see them bend quite a bit, try doing the same on the shock towers and you see no movement (well I haven’t), the only 2 times I have seen broken shock towers was once in a dune buggy that was airborne and came down hard on that rear wheel and it broke the shock tower and bent the shock, the other was in a car that spun out and hit a lamp post sideways.
If you look at the design of the shock tower it was designed to take all its force in an upward direction and not side ways. Under heavy acceleration, load, wheel spin or whatever the frame horn flexes, this causes the engine and trans to move, this movement can introduce shudder in the driveline and wheel hop.

How I think a 3 bar works,
So if you look at the rear of an IRS beetle with a 3 bar kafer cup brace you have the two bars going from the frame horns up and outwards to the shock towers, if there is any load that would have caused movement either up or down in the frame horn this load will transfer to the shock tower.
If the load is trying to push the frame horns up then the load will travel up in to the shock towers, as we know the shock towers are designed to take load in the upwards, the problem begins now the shock tower was not designed to take this sort of load in an upwards and out wards direction, in theory the distance between the two towers would increase with the load and allow the frame horns to move under load and the opposite would happen if the frame horns moved down the shock towers would get closer to each other and the frame horns would still move.
That is where the third bar comes in, this bar is the key to the system, it stops the shock towers from trying to clap hands or jump out from under the fenders.
I would ague that the shock towers would support the weight of the car with coilovers and modest spring rates, however if the shock was applying any side load (across the vehicle not fore and aft) to the shock tower then you would need to think about some sort of brace, If I was going to make a brace to do this I would go from (looking at the rear of the car) both top shock towers to the centre of the torsion bar housing seeing as this isn’t possible due to that pesky transmission. I would the top of the right hand shock tower across to the point where the left hand shock tower is attached to the torsion bar housing and of course the same for the other side, of course this would be used with the 3 bar set up as well.

That’s enough dribble from me, I’m just playing devils advocate or is that being a prick??

Scott

zeroaxe

May 12th 2006, 11:53

What I like about logical explanations is that I can actually understand them! :laugh: I am not by any means choosing sides here, but that explanation sounds about spot-on to me. But I would also like to know if it is wrong in any way :agree:

Mikey

May 12th 2006, 13:26

:laugh: I like your explanation better. Sounds good to me. I took a shot in the dark. :rolleyes:

I am by no means of the term an expert on suspension.

zeroaxe

May 13th 2006, 08:53

Ok, so I have been thinking about the explanation and things.... It was mentioned that when the bars are installed, there should be a SLIGHT 'preload' on them. Now exactly how/what order should the preload be applied?

Here is my take on it, but correct me if I am wrong:
The two diagonal bars should be installed with a 'negative' preload. Thus pulling the top of the shock mounts closer to the frame horns. Because of the framehorns flexing downwards when you excelerate hard, you want the 'free play' to be as little as possible by 'pulling them up' slightly. Then the top bar should be installed with a slight 'positive' preload. Meaning pushing the top shock mounts outwards. This way the top bar will cancel out the 'pulling inwards' force that the diagonal bars are causing, and tie the whole lot in nice and tight.

This is my version of a shot in the dark :laugh:

VW1302RSi

May 13th 2006, 19:06

Hi Zeroaxe

Ok, so I have been thinking about the explanation and things.... It was mentioned that when the bars are installed, there should be a SLIGHT 'preload' on them. Now exactly how/what order should the preload be applied?

Here is my take on it, but correct me if I am wrong:
The two diagonal bars should be installed with a 'negative' preload. Thus pulling the top of the shock mounts closer to the frame horns. Because of the framehorns flexing downwards when you excelerate hard, you want the 'free play' to be as little as possible by 'pulling them up' slightly. Then the top bar should be installed with a slight 'positive' preload. Meaning pushing the top shock mounts outwards. This way the top bar will cancel out the 'pulling inwards' force that the diagonal bars are causing, and tie the whole lot in nice and tight.

This is my version of a shot in the dark :laugh:

Ok I’ll correct you, cause I think your wrong but as I have stated before this is my opinion and not gospel, I have been wrong before, I’m bound to be wrong again, just ask my wife.

I don’t know were you got the bit about preload from, as a rule I wouldn’t preload the bars but make sure there was no play in any of the joints when they are installed. There is bound to be some play between the bar ends, mounts, and bolts, that is the play I would remove, but I wouldn’t wind any preload on to them, other than just the amount required to remove the play.

Also what I would do is if you are installing the bar on a car that’s is all reedy going then I would adjust up the bars with the car sitting on all 4 wheels, so if your not real skinny then you would need ramps or if you’re a bit like me then a 4 post hoist wouldn’t go a miss. If the car is still in the building stage then I would just loosely fit the bars, but once you are ready to drive it I would remove the bars and get a few miles on the car to settle every thing down, then recheck the engine/trans mounting bolts and fit the bars with the car sitting on all 4 wheels.

The reason for this is if you install the bars with out the engine and transmission in place then the frame horns may not be in there correct place and buy fitting the bars once you have installed the engine and trans you may be inadvertently preloading the bars.

And because I don’t like looking like a goose I just checked CSP’s website and looked at the instructions for there “torque bar” and they actually say there is no need to preload the bars, Its quite a good set of instructions. http://www.csp-shop.de/technik/pdf/deeng/20917.pdf
Anyhow I must go, the wife is calling :(

zeroaxe

May 14th 2006, 00:09

Sorry, when I said "slight preload", I was actually referring to the free play. But at least we agree on that :D

ricola

May 14th 2006, 04:53

Great extra pics and video on your site. Sounds nice :-) Any reason you didn't just reverse the coolant manifold?, look like a lot of work went into remaking it like that!
Rich

VW1302RSi

May 16th 2006, 14:55

Hey Ricola

Thanks for the comments, it wasn’t until I made the video of the car going up the street that I realized I hadn’t herd the car under power on the road :)
I'm pretty happy with the sound.

Great extra pics and video on your site. Sounds nice :-) Any reason you didn't just reverse the coolant manifold?, look like a lot of work went into remaking it like that!
Rich

A few reasons, I decides to run one main cooling pipe down each side of the pan, this worked well getting the pipes from under the pan up to the radiator.

I cut and welded the coolant manifold to turn the out let round towards the flywheel and then welded a alloy 90 deg bent to it so it would then go down behind the head and face the ground, then it was just a matter of getting a 90 deg moulded rubber hose to connect it to the main coolant pipe.

The other reasons were that I wanted the heater out let pipes to face towards the firewall in case I decide to put a heater in the car and it made for a neater and shorter hose run when by-passing the throttle body pre-heater circuit.

Scott

Steve C

May 16th 2006, 20:00

VW1302RSi

May 20th 2006, 06:21

Hi Scot

Well done, you just inspired me to drop the paint brush and go out into the garage, my wife will call you later.

To the casual observer your car still sounds like a bug, altough one with a few herbs added.

Steve

Hey Steve

Thanks for the comments about the car, I haven’t heard from your wife yet? You must have picked up that paintbrush again?

Took the car to the track on Friday, I’m still smiling best fun I’ve had with my pants on for quite some time.

I have posted it at http://vw1302rsi.multiply.com/

Good luck with the painting

Scott

Steve C

May 20th 2006, 09:44

Hi

Got back into the painting before she noticed. Im trying to keep ahead of the builders and carpet layers. Almost done and then I can get back to the bugs.

My ADSL comes and goes, I will download the video whens its working and have a look.

Steve

jakriz

July 23rd 2006, 21:55

Hi Scott,
Good to see another sooby superbug conversion.
I've had mine on the road since late 2004, it's a daily driver & it's done 9 supersprints with the local porsche club in that time as well.
I was wondering how u are going with your inlet temps. I'm running a RS Liberty water to air intercooler on my wrx engine. My inlet temps run around 5 - 10 degrees above ambient on the street, on the track I can get them up to 50d which I have been told by many Subaru experts is more than acceptable & I shouldn't worry until I get near 70d inlet temps.

Also how are your water temps going as well, I noticed that your inlet & outlets run incredibly close to your sump & exhaust headers. The temps between those are huge.

I also read about your mod to your thermostate to help bleeding, I actually don't run a thermostate, 2 reasons, 1, it gives the perfect bleed & doesn't allow air pockets around number 4 piston water jacket & 2, I have 16 litres of coolant cooling my engine (standard wrx is 6 litres) I spoke to many guys that had done kombi conversions, some of which had experienced head cracking & warping due to the thermostate opening once warm & letting a huge volume of cold water in to the engine. I just let mine warm up each morning properly & it's been sweet. Just something u may want to think about.

regards
Jak
http://www.superbeetlesonly.com/forum/index.php?act=module&module=gallery&cmd=sc&cat=6

ricola

July 24th 2006, 04:28

At the risk of hijacking..

Jak: in the UK there is a BIG problem with those surges of cold water straight to heads on the Rover K series engines when used in mid mounted cars (MGF/Elise) as they too have the thermostat on the inlet. When I built my libra I fitted an external BMW thermostat on the outlet and removed the original one and it worked fine. I won't consider removing the thermostat as 90% of engine wear is on warm up, maybe an external mount is a good option for you? I'm thinking about it for the cabrio..

Rich

jakriz

July 24th 2006, 16:52

Hi Rich,
I agree totally about the 90% wear at warm up, but I think that comes down to how u treat it as well. I'm quite padantic with my car as it's my only transport, so diligency about warm up procedure each morning has become a mindset. I don't take it over 3000rpm until my water temp is at least 70d & NEVER get it on even the smallest amount of boost until my oil temp is up as well. For the first 20minutes each morning I'm in traffic getting nice & warm as I drop the kids to school so I''m lucky that I'm not going straight onto the Freeway.
Since December 2004 I've done 28'300klms in all weather conditions so I'm now familiar with what water temps , oil temps , oil pressure & inlet temps are/should be. Hey , I could be way off, but I got quite a bit of feedback from a vast array of Subaru engine builders & tuners in regards to my application.
hopefully it will keep running as superbly as it has been.
I will say this though, since taking out my 2275cc vw motor & putting in a wrx engine, I very rarely spend anytime in the garage anymore, almost to the point that I'm bored & looking for things to do to the car!
regards
Jak

VW1302RSi

July 28th 2006, 18:15

Hello Jak,

Thanks for the reply

I was wondering how u are going with your inlet temps. I'm running a RS Liberty water to air intercooler on my wrx engine. My inlet temps run around 5 - 10 degrees above ambient on the street, on the track I can get them up to 50d which I have been told by many Subaru experts is more than acceptable & I shouldn't worry until I get near 70d inlet temps.

My cars is powered by a 2.52L N/A engine so inlet temps are one of the things I don't have to worry about.

Also how are your water temps going as well, I noticed that your inlet & outlets run incredibly close to your sump & exhaust headers. The temps between those are huge.

Your right the temp difference between the exhaust and the coolant pipes is huge. Only the thermostat to rad pipe/hose the runs near the exhaust and I don't see over 85 degC normally on the gauge and when I dynoed it she was just peeking of 90 degC after two hours.
The other thing to remember is lots and I mean lots of vehicle manufactures run coolant pipes near exhaust systems, Its not a problem on my car if it was turboed it may be a different story.

I also read about your mod to your thermostat to help bleeding, I actually don't run a thermostat, 2 reasons, 1, it gives the perfect bleed & doesn't allow air pockets around number 4 piston water jacket & 2, I have 16 litres of coolant cooling my engine (standard wrx is 6 litres) I spoke to many guys that had done kombi conversions, some of which had experienced head cracking & warping due to the thermostat opening once warm & letting a huge volume of cold water in to the engine. I just let mine warm up each morning properly & it's been sweet. Just something u may want to think about.

The reason these guys cracked blocks or heads or what ever was due to thermal shock and as they have worked out if you open a thermostat when one side is 30-40 degC hotter than the other side thermal shock can occur and its worse when you run huge coolant volumes.
When you look at my car running from cold as the engine warms up coolant still circulates through the complete cooling system and as the engine warms up to operating temp and the thermostat opens the gauge drops about 5-7 degC I have confirmed this with a temp gun on the coolant pipes, so there is no thermal shock.

Most manufactures have a small hole in the t/stat one of its tasks is to allow the coolant to circulate before the t/stat opens and warm up the cooling system evenly, all I have done is enlarged the hole due to the amount of coolant I’m running.

Again look at big trucks and coaches some of them have over 15L of coolant in the radiator alone and they run thermostats and warm up evenly, why because the circulate enough water thought the radiator etc to allow an even warm up before the thermostat opens.

What sort of temp variances do you get on your gauge between say:
1- Crawling along in rush hour?
2- On the race track?
3- A fast drive on the motorway on a cool night?
I’d love to know.

Not trying to be rude or a know it all but I still can’t figure out the logic in not running a thermostat on a road car.

Just something you may want to think about
Scott

jakriz

July 28th 2006, 18:44

Hi Scott,
Sorry, I just pressumed u had a turbo version.
My water temps are excellent, well I think they are. In traffic, regardless of summer or winter the highest I've seen is 86d, then if I turn my thermo fans on I can drop it 10d in about 5 minutes. I was told that a thermo fan on both sides of my radiator , one pushing air, one sucking air wouldn't work as the fans would work negatively against each other. Not true.
Fast driving on the Freeway which is everytime I drive to the track as I have to leave before the sun comes up it just sits on 80d without the fans on, in summer it sits on about 84d sitting on about 80mph.
On the track, which was one of my biggest concerns about the conversion my water tamp won't go over 90d with the fans on & my oil temp has only got as far as 85d with no external oil cooler & thats in 35d Aussie summer heat, 5 x 2 minute laps at a time on boost the whole time. Oil pressure is 80psi plus all year round. I also have 2 radiators for the intercooler, one 300 x 300mm one next to the gearbox, the other a 600 x 300mm alloy one sitting in front of the radiator with it's own 9 inch thermo fan & water spray for the track to lower inlet temps.
I was given the advice not to use a thermostate by someone who does conversions for a living but I also checked with my engine builder as well before doing so. My 2 mates that did their conversions at the same time are also not running thermostates either with no ill effects. It seems to make sense to me, but then alot of weird stuff does:)
I'm just about to crack 30,000klms with my conversion & i've driven it through snow, flogged it on the track in summer & winter & also driven it though 30cm of flood water, whilst still taking the kids to school in the morning & getting close to 38mpg. It's working a treat.
On another note, I also use 15/40 weight oil on the street & 20/50 on the track, contrary to popular beleif suby engines don't like thin oil, especially for the track, thats how they do big end bearings which is quite common.

Have u had your car on the dyno yet Scott, would be interesting to see what the twin cam 2.5 puts out at the wheels.

regards
Jak

VW1302RSi

August 7th 2006, 03:14

Hi Jak

I was given the advice not to use a thermostate by someone who does conversions for a living but I also checked with my engine builder as well before doing so. My 2 mates that did their conversions at the same time are also not running thermostates either with no ill effects. It seems to make sense to me, but then alot of weird stuff does:)

With out trying to sound like a know it all prick I hope you didn't pay for that advise.

But seeing as I don't know everything (as my wife points out) I decided to ask a few professionals,
So I called a service manager of a Toyota dealership I know who is an A grade mechanic with over 40 years in the trade and playing with race cars, and he agreed with me but gave me some grief for asking him a question I knew the answer for. But as we both could be wrong I wanted to confirm so I wanted to asked a 3rd party. So I left the warmth of my office and went down to the workshop and asked some of the qualified mechanics there what they thought and they agreed with me, but I thought they would.

We just can’t see any reason why you wouldn’t run a thermostat, unless it was to overcome some other problem?

Have u had your car on the dyno yet Scott, would be interesting to see what the twin cam 2.5 puts out at the wheels.

Yes I have had my car on the dyno it’s a EJ25 SOHC not a DOHC and as I don’t like talking about power figures as it always end up sounding like fishing story’s, and it depends on the dyno and the correction methods used, sae, din, temp correction bla bla bla.
It has enough for the moment.

Scott

jakriz

August 7th 2006, 03:23

VW1302RSi

August 7th 2006, 07:25

Like I said Scott, 30'000k on the conversion, driven daily & flogged on the track with Porsches. if it aint broken, don't fix it.
Each to their own.
Just can't understand why u would ask your local toyota dealership advice about a wrx engine in the back of a 71 beetle?
Good luck with yours.
regards
Jak

Fair comment Jak if it isn’t broke don’t fix it.

It wasn’t the Toyota dealership I was asking, it was the man at the dealership I was asking, he’s raced every thing from Karts to Sprint cars including an old F1 Cooper Climax and a Subaru Speedway Saloon.

But hell all I was saying was I don’t understand why you wouldn’t fit one, that’s not knocking your car or how well it goes, I’ve heard lots and lots of good things about how well you car goes on the track and 30000 Ks speak for it’s self

No disrespect for you or your car, I guess I was just knocking the man who recommended you ran with out one.

Scott

What-r-u-doing

August 7th 2006, 09:38

Hello

Under the orders of scott i deleted my post LOL, only cas hed tell my mum on me.

But Jack he is a good mechanic, but i'm better HAHA

Phil

VW1302RSi

August 7th 2006, 17:59

Thanks for that Phil

I’m sure every body on this board wanted to know my history, well your inaccurate version anyway. How about you remove this post, I’ve pissed Jak off enough with out you helping.

Jak, sorry about Phil’s comments, he can’t help it he was born in Naenae, the biggest ghetto in Wellington and his mum didn’t love him.

Scott

Rob

August 10th 2006, 19:09

VW1302RSi

August 10th 2006, 23:51

Man, I envy you Super guys for the space you have up front :D

Scott, do you happen to have a pic or schematic of all the breather hoses ?
How did you hook al those up ? Especially the connections to the left of the throttle body ? I think these are the crankcase ventilation ?

See pic (Arrow 1 and 2).

Also how did you mount the MAF / air intake plumbing ?

Thanks!

Rob.

Hi Rob.

I reversed my inlet manifold and removed all the old vacuum and crankcase ventilation hoses and re-plumbed them.

I’ll try and describe how I have done the inlet, vacuum and ventilation plumbing.

I rotated the inlet manifold 180 deg and have an air filter mounted on the throttle body, I will be making an airbox that sits above the inlet manifold soon.
My map sensor is mounted in my aftermarket ECU this gets it vacuum via a rubber hose from the top of the manifold.

The only other small vacuum hose I have goes from the fuel pressure regulator to the manifold, this can be seen near the dipstick in this picture you could use this source of vacuum for your MAP signal (it would depend on what sort of EFI system you are using)

http://vw1302rsi.multiply.com/photos/photo/1/45

I have a Bugpack type oil breather box mounted on the fire wall (see pic above) this has one hose coming out each end and they run down to each cam/rocker cover vents, then the other vent in the breather box runs to the crankcase breather point. (Number 2 in your picture)

I will be making a modification to the crankcase breather system, once I have built my airbox, this will place another breather hose from the crankcase breather to the airbox, between the throttle body and airfilter, make sense?

If not tell me and have another go.

Scott

Rob

August 11th 2006, 08:56

Thanks Scott, that clears it up.

I'm using the original MAF sensor (and the original ECU).

One more question if you don't mind. Arrow #2 is the crankcase ventilation, but what is #1 ?

Also, would I need a PCV valve on the crankcase vent ?

(I guess that's 2 more questions :D)

Thanks ! Awesome car by the way.

Rob.

VW1302RSi

August 14th 2006, 06:24

Hi Rob

Thanks Scott, that clears it up.

I'm using the original MAF sensor (and the original ECU).

One more question if you don't mind. Arrow #2 is the crankcase ventilation, but what is #1 ?

Also, would I need a PCV valve on the crankcase vent ?

(I guess that's 2 more questions :D)

Thanks ! Awesome car by the way.

Rob.

I'm not sure what that hose #1 is, with out seeing more and knowing just what model engine you have it's hard to tell, also they may have different emissions systems between NZ and the US or Canada. Maybe you could take a few more pictures wider angle and e-mail them to me at vw1302rsi@yahoo.com.au and I’ll see what I can do.

As far as a PCV valve goes- do what you want or what the law will allow you to do. If you are venting the crankcase or rocker cover vents into the manifold after the throttle body the PCV valve is important.
If you are venting it into the hose between the throttle body and the airflow meter it shouldn’t be an issue unless you are by passing the air flow meter with lots of air.

PCV stands for positive crankcase venation so if you went in to the air cleaner or the inlet pipe its not positive as there is no vacuum sucking the fumes out. If it is vented into the manifold with a PCV valve then you need an inlet into the crankcase and this needs to be filtered. The factory did this on the Subaru engine I have by connecting the rocker cover vents to the air filter housing between the filter and the throttle body, if it had a air flow meter it would be between the meter and the throttle body, so any air travelling through the crankcase was measured. On my car that pipe number 2 in your picture went to the PCV valve in the manifold and to the inlet ducting before the throttle body, from memory I think?

But remember that turbo cars have pressure in the manifold at times so they are slightly different in the plumbing.

Also oil vapour lowers the octane rating of fuel so you may not want to vent it into the inlet system.

At the moment the ventilation system on my car is an open type, but when I add a breather hose to the air cleaner all the fumes will go in to the inlet system and be a closed type but it won’t be a positive type, make sense.

Thanks for the comment about the car.

SW

VW1302RSi

August 14th 2006, 06:49

Well this weekend I had my second failure (read break down) since doing my conversion, the first failure was caused by brain fade in the design of my fuel system, I concluded as Subaru only have a fuel filter at the engine and not at the tank I would do the same, 1- I forgot that Subaru have a strainer sock at the tank and 2- After steam cleaning the tank to clean it before welding the fuel pick up in, may just cause it to rust if I refit the tank and don’t fill it up for 6 months, so my first major break down was with in 2 weeks and cost me a new fuel pump.

So a few weeks ago we decided to go over to Martinborough in the Wairarapa for a night away somewhere nice,,,,,,,,, ok I had nothing to do with it- my wife decided, how ever I managed to convince my mate and his wife to join us as well. Well we went over Saturday just gone the trip over the hill was ok, managed to leave my mate behind in his beetle, not his fault, I managed to jump a few more cars than him , including the slowest car on the road that day, so after a few stops to check out the craft shops yawn, have coffee, find lunch it was time to check in to the motel, very nice girls were happy, more coffee and after noon reading yawn the boys were bored so of we went for a drive in my car.

We headed off towards the cost in search of some nice driving roads, were we in luck, after 2 minutes we were flat out in four and I mean flat out, she would not go any faster, typical VW you say well, in her defence there was a head wind and it was slightly up hill, I couldn’t quite get the Speedo needle to touch the back of the needle stop, it just sat over the generator light.

That is were it all went wrong I suggested that on the way back my mate could take a video of the Speedo etc, well a few miles up the road during some lovely hills and turns we found out that the car was too low, thru a series of “S”sss
I was hard on the brakes turning slightly to the right getting ready to turn in, as I crossed over the centreline and the camber of the road and started to turn in then there was this awful scraping noise as we bottomed out, After a quick look in the mirror I could see a cloud of blue smoke,
A quick look at the gauges and I still had oil pressure?,
It was like tyre smoke?, but then I hadn’t locked a wheel?,
Then there was a bit of white smoke?,
All very confusing until another check in the mirror showed this dark line following us up the road, we quickly pulled over and found that we hadn’t holed the sump but we had ground the right hand side cooling pipe and hose on the road, the blue smoke was the rubber hose skidding along the ground, the white smoke was the coolant on the exhaust. From the time we touched the road to we stopped it must have been less than 20 seconds, and 70 meters.

After some cursing and then thanking the gods it wasn’t the sump, or that we hadn’t spun in the coolant, we cobbled up a repair and toped her up with the 1L water I carried for such an emergency, it dawned on me later that this was a waste of time as she holds over 10Ls of coolant and there was at least 6L of that on the road.
So off we coasted down hill looking for a farm or a puddle, we passed a few puddles but I wasn’t quite prepared just then to fill her with that ****e, I’d rather drink it than put it in my car, then a farm and we were saved, well after convincing the farmer I wasn’t taking the piss and did need water for my old Volkswagen Beetle. We filled her to the brim with this brownish rain water that was only slightly cleaner than the puddles, well at least it didn’t have lumps in it, we bleed her up it was back to the motel to explain why we took so long, effect a less cobbled up repair and try and get the smell of coolant off me, so we could have a nice dinner with the girls, So after all it wasn’t the sump that was the problem, well so far it wasn’t. It’s now time to repair it correctly and build a front skid tray that will keep me out from under the wife’s feet for a few days.

Scott