Why 944?

[markd@mac.com]

I just finished flipping through 11 pages of 944 axle information and I haven't found a nice reason to upgrade. What am I gaining by going for a 944 conversion over stock type 3 IRS with Porsche pattern (5x130) CB Disc Brake conversion? This is on a early swing axle squareback that will be getting a 2056 Type IV conversion with 16" wheels.

[yetibone]

There are a number of benifits to the P-car parts over CB's disk brake kit, but the differences may not matter if your plan is to use your Type III as general transport, and not a rice killer, auto-x, or track car.

Stronger forged rear hubs from the 944 vs. the cast steel Roto-Hubs from CB. The 944 stuff includes vented rotors, a little bit better caliper, and you can find it all in a junk yard for low $$$.

Nothing wrong with CB's stuff, just that 944 stuff looks stronger, and was designed for better performance, IMO.

[markd@mac.com]

That's kind of what I gathered. Plus a wider track for the wheel conversion. Thanks Yeti. Anyone else have anything to add?

[flat]

P-parts all the way. More pad surface, vented rotors, thicker pads (less frequent changes), OEM quality vs aftermarket, proper hub center, lighter and sexier.

Also, the price of the P-car stuff will be about equal to the aftermarket.

Lanner

[Wally]

38mm piston cup in the 944 caliper will give you more rear bias that is very wanted and can really be used in a rear-engined car. You will still not lock-up ever.
And the 944 caliper bracket is a nice alu part!

Look up the piston cup diameter of the CB caliper... Then you will understand :D

[flat]

Wally,

What is the rear piston diameter on the CB?

Lanner

[Wally]

Is this a trick question? :p
If I knew, I surely would tell right away. It wasn't meant retorical anyway ;)
I only know for 99% sure its (much) less...

[flat]

Wally,

I was just curios. I remember taking a look at the 'Empi' rear disk kit, and they use Ford Taurus rear calipers. If memory serves me right, they were 36mm. The pads were tiny though, and they don't cover the disk properly.

Lanner

[Bruce2]

Mark, you have discovered their secret. There is no good reason why you need to use Porsche parts. Strength is not an issue since the CB parts will never break. Stock VW trailing arms will not bend.
The reason most guys waste their time with Porsche parts is so they can boast about their "exotic" Porsche parts.

[Mikey]

Mark, you have discovered their secret. There is no good reason why you need to use Porsche parts. Strength is not an issue since the CB parts will never break. Stock VW trailing arms will not bend.
The reason most guys waste their time with Porsche parts is so they can boast about their "exotic" Porsche parts.

Secret? No Good Reason? Waste Their Time?
This is an interesting post. I havn't seen anyone saying he needs Porsche brakes, just some advantages of Porsche brake. In the end, it's his desicion. It's like you're ignoring every advantage Porsche brakes have to offer. Porsche brakes have several clear advantages over the CB kit. Yet you're ignoring all of them. In the end, the prices are close enough to concider Porsche parts. Sure stock vw trailing arms won't bend, but maybe he wants aluminum trailing arms for the weight saving benifits, Or he wants the increase in track. I'm also lost why you think the ones that "waste their time" with Porsche brakes are only looking to boast about their "exotic" Porsche parts. I tell people about the brakes I'm using, but it is not the main stay of my entire project. I did concider a CB kit for my car, but after waiting a few months for their company to get the caliper tooling fixed. I asked for a refund. I'm sure it's fixed now.


Mark, like I said, in the end, it's your choice. I just feel you should be given the facts clearly and with out bias.

[yetibone]

Mark, you have discovered their secret. There is no good reason why you need to use Porsche parts.

No? People don't have to order Porsche rotors from California.

Strength is not an issue since the CB parts will never break. Stock VW trailing arms will not bend.

CB parts may not break, but they do warp. Roto-hubs don't re-surface very well because they tend to chatter a lot on a lathe. Strength sought in the control arms is torsional rigidity, not tensile strength. It's a matter of flexing, not bending, or breaking. Remember, some people do drive their cars hard enough to warrant those considerations.

The reason most guys waste their time with Porsche parts is so they can boast about their "exotic" Porsche parts.

No. They boast about what excellent brakes they've obtained for less cabbage than what CB wants for a kit with non-vented rotors, and Ford Taurus equivelant calipers.

Chist man,...Don't get so arrogant every time you're not part of the general concensus. :rolleyes:

[flat]

I don't want to really get involved in the 'hateration', but you can put together a Porsche setup that is financially very competetive to the 'regular brakes' out there. Performance will be in a different league.

It's about driver confidence, and that's worth the investment. I drive the bus as a daily through city/highway traffic, and the 944NA setup has probably saved my skin a couple time whereas I know that a drum setup would have me crashing into the back of the car infront of me. In a lowered bus that is a huge concern! If I ever crash that thing I'll lose my legs, literally.

I'm getting my 944 Turbo brakes ready for my bus because I'm rolling in cash and like to brag.;)

Lanner

[Panelfantastic]

Everybody likes the wow factor, whether they are willing to admit or not.
I've got the CB stuff on the rear of my bus and 944 up front, so I know both sides.
Next project I hope to use all Porsche because I like the look of the parts and respect the performance heritage they come from and hope to be needing some serious brake power!


Jeff-

[wrenchnride247]

Don't forget, factory parts have better R&D backing than after market parts will ever have. They have certain standards they must meet in order to be approved for safe public road use.

[ricola]

Don't forget, factory parts have better R&D backing than after market parts will ever have. They have certain standards they must meet in order to be approved for safe public road use.

That is my reason, 100%. I use that justification everywhere in my project (scooby engine, 996 brakes :D ), if I can fit a higher performance standard part from a VM I will do, it makes getting spares MUCH easier too.

Rich

[Bruce2]

Strength sought in the control arms is torsional rigidity, not tensile strength. It's a matter of flexing, not bending, or breaking. Remember, some people do drive their cars hard enough to warrant those considerations.

Keep dreaming! I bet you didn't consider that the P parts are a lot heavier than VW parts. Makes for bad handling. Those giant brake rotors have a lot of rotational inertia too.

[bt1211]

There are a lot of 944 parts cars out there. I got everything I needed for less than $200.
Better brakes for the cost of VW parts, thats a good deal to me.

We are talking about Porsche parts. They did all the R&D you could ask for. Their reputation is earned.

Then again.... some people hate them because they are Porsche. Those are they same people that hate everything Porsche... they hate the people that buy Porsche cars, that fix up old Porsches, that adapt Porsche parts, they hate all things Porsche.

[yetibone]

Keep dreaming! I bet you didn't consider that the P parts are a lot heavier than VW parts. Makes for bad handling. Those giant brake rotors have a lot of rotational inertia too.

I'm well aware of the ~10lb difference in unsprung weight per corner. For the benefit of better brakes, and peace of mind, thats not enough difference to matter to me. I'm not a weight weeine.

CB's stuff is good. I've used their brakes myself. Porsche stuff is better. Easily obtainable, easily re-built, over engineered, and greater quality for the same or less money than CB's brakes. Those are the facts. Others here agree. If you can't see through your own arrogance at the difference in quality between the two then there's no sense in my trying to explain it. You can be as pompus, and condecending as you want, the facts are what they are.

Have a good evening.

[Jeza]

This is an interesting topic.

No real reason for Porsche 944 brakes, you could use anything from a bigger car.

The 944 conversion is widely done successfully and has supporting parts (ie the Kerscher ball joint). So there is the ease of the conversion verses something off another manufacturer. The front to rear bias is not perfect but works well enough.

I agree with Rich and others that OEM stuff is generally better made than aftermarket parts. I also like being able to visit my local shop for parts rather than order them across the net and wait for many many weeks while the bits make there way to New Zealand. (all except that damn ball joint- which is probably going to be changed on my setup, so I can get it locally).

One of the guys in our local VW club has the CB rear disks. His car stops extremely well. If the kit is well made and works then go for it. The rear disks are a huge bonus.

The wow factor is always a nice bonus- but you get that running big disk brakes from any manufacturer.

As for the wieght- yep the early NA 944 stuff is heavy, so the rest of your components need to compensate for that, ie spring rates and shock rates etc. No real black magic, I used golf inserts and upgraded my springs and the car handles beautifully now- much much better than it did stock.

[Bruce2]

CB's stuff is good. I've used their brakes myself. Porsche stuff is better. Easily obtainable, easily re-built, over engineered, and greater quality for the same or less money than CB's brakes. Those are the facts. Others here agree. If you can't see through your own arrogance at the difference in quality between the two then there's no sense in my trying to explain it. You can be as pompus, and condecending as you want, the facts are what they are.
You are right, CB stuff is good. That's because there's not much that they designed. Do you know where the rotors come from? Their rotohub is an evolution of the previous design that used a genuine VW Type 3 drive flange, and a genuine Porsche 914 rotor. As those parts became more difficult to find, they elected to get the two parts cast into one for simplicity. But all this means nothing really since there is not a problem with the design of the rotohub. They are completely reliable. IMO their lighter weight makes them superior to the 944 hub/rotor. The perceived quality is irrelevant since neither rotor will fail. It's too bad your defensive behaviour has blinded you from seeing this.

Then there's the caliper. Originally CB used a 914 caliper. It had the advantage of an external mechanical lever to actuate the piston for the e-brake. Very simple with very little moving parts. Since those are not commonly available anymore, they now use a (Ford?) caliper. That is certainly more available anywhere in North America than any Porsche part is. The Big disadvantage of the 944 brakes is the silly drum brakes within the rotor. Talk about a huge increase in complexity compared to a simple lever on the caliper. Do you think your FLAPS is gonna have those silly brake shoes in stock when you need them? Likely, you will have to order them (probably from California). Any problem with the CB caliper, your FLAPS will have it in stock. Same for the pads. Great if you are on a road trip.

[Wally]

The Big disadvantage of the 944 brakes is the silly drum brakes within the rotor. Talk about a huge increase in complexity compared to a simple lever on the caliper.

Actually, I still see this as an advantage. With a hydraulic e-brake I also have a problem with yearly inspection or I need to run an independant (extra) fluid reservoir. Talk about complexity...

Do you think your FLAPS is gonna have those silly brake shoes in stock when you need them? Likely, you will have to order them (probably from California). Any problem with the CB caliper, your FLAPS will have it in stock. Same for the pads. Great if you are on a road trip.
The 'silly' brake shoes are actually IRS (super)bug brakeshoes...:rolleyes: Bet you didn't know that huh? It makes sense also, as the complete steel IRS arm is essentially a VW part as well.

Funny n/body mentioned this, but for me a great benefit is the 'free' 5x130 porsche lug pattern on a 944 brake conversion as I only run P-wheels on all of my aircooled cars :D and with the extra off-set, most modern P-wheels with their large ET's fit right on without spacers or anything.

But everybody that wants the easy way out and mail-order a system that has less braking power (you can only judge this really if you have experienced both systems) and costs twice as much than having to visit a dirty (yuck!) scrapyard, be my guest.
But otherwise you're totally right, I only do the porsche braking swap for bragging rights and status Mwhahahah!

[Wally]

, proper hub center, ..
This is a definate benefit as well.
I think those with experience with the subject, know to value this added bonus of the P-rotors with the centering ring at the rear :rolleyes:

[Mikey]

The Big disadvantage of the 944 brakes is the silly drum brakes within the rotor. Talk about a huge increase in complexity compared to a simple lever on the caliper. Do you think your FLAPS is gonna have those silly brake shoes in stock when you need them? Likely, you will have to order them (probably from California). Any problem with the CB caliper, your FLAPS will have it in stock. Same for the pads. Great if you are on a road trip.

I read in another thread that it cost about $15-20 to have those ebrake shoes re-lined at a brake parts store. :agree: And someone that thinks ahead can pick up an extra set of wore out shoes and have them already re-lined.

my 2cent

[flat]

The Big disadvantage of the 944 brakes is the silly drum brakes within the rotor. Talk about a huge increase in complexity compared to a simple lever on the caliper.

If I look into the evolution of automobiles (and anything in general), complexity always increases. With respect to brakes, first there was drums, then there were disks. If drums brakes are considered 'complex', then I don't know what to think. 2 shoes, 2 springs and one actuator. Not exactly rocket science.

The shoes in the P-car rear are not used to brake the vehicle. Therefore there is VERY little wear. I've taken apart a 20 year old 944 with original shoes, cleaned them up and reused them because they were good as new. If the shoes are improperly adjusted, then they will drag and wear, else you're good for a long while.

Lanner

[zen]

When you are young, you are most concerned with how fast you can go.
The older you get, you are more conconcerned with how fast you can stop.

I'll take the P-car brakes and extra unsprung mass for TUV standards, quality build, driver confidence and the WOW factor.

That said, any proper upgrade from stock is a good upgrade.

Talk to Lanner (aka Flat) or one of our other sponsors in person before you go CB, then make a well informed decision. Nothing "wrong" with the CB stuff.

[kleinporsche]

It's been a long time since I've posted, but finally an interesting topic!!! I like your stance about the topic Zen, and I understand your point Bruce. It's true that sometimes on this forum things get carried away like: you've GOT to have P-brakes and you've GOT to have a tIV and DTM. CB stuff is good anough, type 1 engines are good anough, as long as you have fun and the car is safe, + they are more conveniant. But on a strictly performance point of view, Porsche parts are better and Flat is the man that's got the most expertise and respect regarding brake parts; afterall, he did them all: from porsche to Toyota 4 runner brakes, and Mazda and Golf parts in between. I think we can trust his opinion more than anybody here.

[KAFUR1]

Lanner did a Wonderful job on my 944 n/a porsche brakes on my 69 and I love them!!! It is the best investment I have ever made on my bug!!! I will never have stock brakes or c.b. 's brakes on any of my aircooled VW's.... 944 ALL THEY WAY HANDS DOWN!

[Bruce2]

The 'silly' brake shoes are actually IRS (super)bug brakeshoes...:rolleyes: Bet you didn't know that huh? It makes sense also, as the complete steel IRS arm is essentially a VW part as well.


I just had the chance to work on some 944 rear brakes, and got to see those "silly" brakes first hand. They are not even close to Beetle rear shoes. First, the dia of the shoes are right around 7" vs 9.1" for a Beetle rear. Also, the 944 e-brake shoes are a lot narrower. I don't know where you dreamed it up that they were the same.

I also compared the mounting flanges. The 944 flanges push the wheel further out by 16mm compared to a 914 rotor on a Type 3 hub (also the CB rotohub) If your wheels have a small offset, this works against you.

I'm gonna do some weight comparisons soon.

[Panelfantastic]

Bruce, you are not helping the cause. You are shooting holes in years of mind washing and convincing that the Porky brakes are the only way to go. If my wife reads this, there is no way I will get to waste tons of money on the oversized eye candy/brakes I want. How dare you back up your blasphemy with actual comparisons and facts!


(I know Bruce has sense of humour, to anyone else who is offended, I'm only funnin' with Bruce about the brake debate)

Jeff-

[Steve C]

Hi

Ive got say that I was pretty unimpressed with E brake on my steel 944 arms that I had on my 1302. They would not lock the rear wheels and would not slow the car at speed, but they held OK on hills, I suspect that this was something to do with the VW lever - 944 E brake ratio.

Im going to use 944 system complete on my new car with the E brake lever mounted next to the drivers seat between the door, this might make entrance into the car a pain in the arse (in more ways than one).

When I had Porsche brakes on my 1302, I learnt to lip read, when I pulled up in traffic you could see people in other cars saying that bug has Porsche brakes on it.

Steve