Questions and more questions ...

[iamstumper]

Hi Lanner,

One of my fellow SuperBeetlesOnly members recently received and posted on his 3 bar Kafer Cup Bars from you. He liked the fit and finish a great deal!

I'm receiving my new engine within the next month or so from Jake Raby (~200hp with 200tq) and one of the recommendations from him is to install a KCB (well, CSP was what he had listed) and seeing as how you have both the 3 bar and 5 bar setup, I'd like to look into getting my set from you.

One of my questions is what are the pros / cons between the 3 bar and 5 bar? Also, I had posted about annodizing them ... think you said an additional $C50 for the 3 bar .... what about the 5 bar? Also, what type of turnaround would we be looking at?

On to my other questions :D

Brakes.

I've read and reread postings from GermanLook, ShoptalkForums, and SuperBeetlesOnly .... think I've thoroughly confused myself!

Some givens for me:

above listed engine - Type4 by Jake Raby ~200hp/tq
this is my daily driver
this is also the car I take up and down the coast / mountains of northern California and to Mt Shasta and Nevada ... hmmm ... and driven quite enthusiastically ... some of these roads are non stop corners at grade for 30 - 90 miles at a stretch
Creative Car Craft +2" front fender (pre '67), +3" rear fender (73late)
a wider "track" is fine by me ... even desirable (i think)
would prefer a bolt pattern that is both popular and not likely to "disappear"
emergency brake required
Gene Berg rubber mounted trans mount (GB 643)
front / rear sway bars from Topline or SAW
rear torsion bar from SAW (i think)


Not sure if any of that was pertinent, but figured I'd list it just in case. Reminds me, I need to read up some more on the "control arms".

Also, while I'm not tied to any wheels as of yet, I do like the Porsche CupII's in 7x17 et 52 (or 55 can't remember). I like some custom Torq's just as well that I'd be able to get at a variety of sizes and offsets.

And other preferences - performance > weight > looks > "name" / brand. And of course money does figure in there somewhere. Afraid I don't have unlimited funds. And with this (brakes) being in the future (as opposed to the KCB's immediate) I can't say for sure what my budget will be. I AM married however ... and that has some built in checks and balances!!!

Having said all of that, I tend to like the "best bang for buck". Of course, who doesn't for those of us who must adher to budgets.

Given some suggested brake setups, what size wheel would be the minimum for your recommendation? 6 - 8 wide and 15 - 17 height seems to be the range of wheel sizes that I like. Any problems there?

Also, tie rods.

I've been reading as I can on the benefits of why I want to swap those out. And I can't find anything that gives me a good understanding of what they do, and why I'd want to swap them out for heavy / super duty ones.

Care to chime in on that? Or have a good link / read that you can suggest?

Guess I should wrap up and summarize after all of that!

Immediate need:
Kafer Cup Bars (which fits my needs 3 vs 5 bars)
Annodizing ... cost and options
Turnaround and cost

Future needs:
brakes
tie rods(?)

Also, since I gave you a smattering of info, is there any questions that I can answer that would help you help me?

Do'h ... I did forget this .... 1973 Super Beetle is my current project platform.

Look forward to hearing back from you!

-Aaron Greene

[flat]

Aaron,

The 3 bar Kafer brace is the setup for most applications. It provides chassis strengthening and will cure wheel hop for 'planted' launches.

If you are ditching the torsion bars and going with a coil over setup, then I highly recommend the 5 bar because it will triangulate the shock towers for better support (considering they are now supporting the weight of the vehicle).

Anodizing charges are done by 'batch', so it'll cost basically the same for the 3 or 5 bar. The kafer bar is in stock, but not anodized. The total turnaround is in the hands of the plater, but around 5 days is typical.


With that kind of power (and speed potential), you definately have to worry about the brakes. Believe it or not the Porsche stuff is actually quite economical with regards to the options. With those fenders, I'd do 17x7et55 (215/45, or 205/50 tire) on the front with 944T brakes. On the rear I'm pretty sure you can use the late model 944 aluminum arms, again with the matching turbo brakes. Run the 17x9et55's with a 245/40 (or 255/40) tire. Maybe other guys who have run the late offset arms can chime in here with regards to fitment.

You didn't mention whether you have a 2-bolt front strut or 3-bolt. With the 2-bolt strut and right collection of Porsche parts, it's almost all bolt on. (Camber can be an issue with the Porsche spindles). I can also machine the 944 hubs for your SB spindles.

I can put some numbers together for P-car parts, or try German auto dismantlers in Atlanta. Roughly, I figure you'd spend a little less than $2000 for full four corner 944T brake setup with new rotors/pads and the rear control arms etc..

As for tierods, I feel the stockers to be inadequate for larger cornering forces with wide tires. They were desiged for 165 tires on narrow rims. I feel my turning is 'crisper' with the SD tierods, but that may be subjective. Also, if you do a spindle swap etc, you may need longer/shorter tie rods. Why modify 30 year old parts, put on the new ones. I always put the SD ones in my cars.

Lanner

[iamstumper]

Thanks for the reply Lanner!

I forgot to mention that I'm planning on using Maxx Struts from Topline.

As to the 2 bolt vs 3 bolt for the '73 front strut, I don't know as of right now. I'll have to check. If it's 3 bolt, am I out of luck? Or it's just more involved? Or another thought is - can the 3 bolt be "converted" to 2 bolt? For example take the struts, spindles, and bottom arms from a '74 - '79 Super Beetle - is it a bolt on conversion? Or something else can be done?

As to getting a more detailed price on the brakes, it's not needed as of yet. I do appreciate the ball park cost though. That helps immensely for planning!

Sadly my plans were completely turned around from doing the brakes, wheels and suspension first. Then worry about the engine. Oh well, can't control everything! Brakes and wheels are next on the list ... however, that won't happen till next year I think.

And lastly, will check with the wife as to timeframes ... but I think you'll be getting an order for some KCB's in the near future :D

Ok, this is last ... and should the tie rods be done once the wheels / tires have been done? Or can do now with no adverse affects (or is that effects?!)?

Thanks!
-Aaron

[flat]

Yeah, the early (3 bolt) and late (2 bolt) suspension can interchange with all the matching parts (spindle/strut/lower control arm). Surf around on this and other forums to see what people are doing and how they like it.

Sometimes, if it crosses your way it may be cheaper to purchase a wrecked 944 and grab the parts you want. I did that once. It's fine aslong as the neighbours don't mind your yard looking like the scrappers.....and you can always sell parts to the 944 crowd.

I'd wait the tie-rods till after your suspension is sorted out because depending on your spindle arrangement, the tierods will vary in length.

Lanner

[wrenchnride247]

Aaron, If you need 944 part's... German Auto Dismantlers is a good source as Lanner said. They have large numbers of 944 cars. They also have a warehouse that has "the mother load" of calipers, spindles, trailing arms, struts, and axles. I have dug through most of it (always run out of time). Their not always the cheapest, but will have what you need.;)

Oh yeah. They also have all P-rims you can handle, but I would try ebay for rims first.

Here's the site: www.germanautodismantlers.com

[iamstumper]

Thanks for the info ... both of you! I appreciate it.

Once I'm closer to doing my brakes and associated parts, I'll be resurfacing this thread!

Oh, and for the record I have a 3-bolt '73 Super Beetle. Was easy since my wifes Super is a 2-bolt ('79 Vert) ... made it very easy to compare ;)

Has me thinking of a '74+ conversion of the front end ... or is there any other suggestions / parts that anyone would rather replace them with?

And that link to the German Auto Dismantlers can eat up a lot of time browsing .... could only imagine if you went there in person to "browse"!

[iamstumper]

Lanner,

It appears "sooner" is here now. Or at least that's what the wife tells me :D

Need to start the process for ordering a set of Kafer Cup Bars - 5 bar setup.

This will be for my '73 Super Beetle described above.

Still up in the air as to anodizing ... well ... it's the deciding on a color part that I'm up in the air on. Blue, red, purple, black .... no! Fuscia!!! :bawling:

I keep falling back to black (hopefully it's more of a milky/translucent/pearlescent type vs solid ... though matte black could be interesting). And without knowing what can or can not be done with anodizing, my mind keeps coming up with, shall we say odd color combos that has me wincing!

Looking forward to working out the details and getting this order rolling!