Ceramic brakes!

[Wally]

Just bought these cheap:
http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/60241.jpg

but for a reason: the disks are quite rough at places and actually should be machined, if it weren't that that is deemed impossible...or is it?
Anyone feels its possible to machine ceramic disks?

Thanks,
Walter

[gonebuggy]

:eek:

Lets put it this way, we use ceramic tools to machine hardened tool steel....

You are going to have to search to find a way to machine those, i don't know much about the grade of ceramics but they can be HARD!

it may have to be ground, similar to resurfacing a flywheel.

talk to your local machine shops,

Alex

[Chris Percival]

First bug with ceramic brakes? Go for it.. lol

[volkdent]

Very hardcore!!! Should be cool, keep us posted.

Jason

[Typ Vier]

PORSCHE says no, it is not possible nor allowed to machine them, once worn or damaged they need to be replaced no if or but.
They have a life expectancy of 300000km on road vehicles and are usually not used on race cars as they chip easily when not careful during wheel changes. All GT3 cup cars in NZ have the steel discs fitted.
If you use a diamond grinding tool similar to the flywheel grinding as mentioned earlier it may work but chances are that they will shatter.
Just checked, new ones for the front are around NZ$11000+ GST and for the rear around NZ$9000 + GST, these prices are retail. Pads for the front are NZ$ 1500. Alternatively you can use steel discs on the front with the 6 piston calipers but for the rear you need the calipers too as the ceramic ones are different ;)

[Pillow]

Ouch!!! $$$

... Just run them perhaps and see if they pull or are dodgy?

[gonebuggy]

"If you have a $5 head buy a $5 helmet"

Don't risk running worn out breaks fro the "cool" factor. I'd rather run old iron discs and live to get ripped into for it, then run worn out ceramics and have people talk about how cool my car looked at my funeral....

Alex

[Wally]

Hey Alex,
The remark about the cool factor is really below the belt! :angry:
The whole point of this for me is to save upsprung weight. The difference in disk color nobody will notice anyways.
My current disk weighs 8,2 kilo
These are 3 kilo each lighter...That is HUGE!

[gonebuggy]

Sorry Wally, I didn't mean it as an attack at you.

I can totally understand why you'd want to use them, i mean they do have many advantages over steel discs heat dissapation, weight etc (other then the cool factor!;) )

All I'm saying is if they can't be used safely, don't use them at all. Tread unknown waters with caution.

Best of luck!

Alex

[Wally]

All I'm saying is if they can't be used safely, don't use them at all. Tread unknown waters with caution.


Now, I can only agree to that! :)

[gonebuggy]

awesome, we're definitely on the same page. keep us posted on your progress!

best of luck!

Alex

[Pillow]

Can you have them x-rayed for cracks?

A little wear on them should not necessitate trashing them.

If it is just cosmetic then I see no problem in using them. Could a Porsche dealer/shop verify thier condition?

Trust me I am not trying to kill anybody using worn out parts. Ceramics are just a different animal.

[Wally]

Can you have them x-rayed for cracks?

A little wear on them should not necessitate trashing them.

If it is just cosmetic then I see no problem in using them. Could a Porsche dealer/shop verify thier condition?

To x-ray them is maybe a little too far fetched IMO and as you may be able to see on the upper disk, the surface is just too rough for pads too either reach that lower area or the if the pads would touch that are, the pads would be eaten in no time. Just my observation. Picture can't show everything.

For those concerned: the porches these come from weigh a very lot more than my bug does and braking resistance will never match the turbo porsches extreme speeds and loads imho. Most every part on a porsche is over-engineered as well.
Therefore I feel quit confidant that a small layer can be safely removed if done by a ceramic specialist and I found one locally!

Hopefully next week I can bring them in for inspection.
Much to my surprise the calipers and disks also nearly bolted on onto my front (944T Cup) hubs. I need 1 or 2mm shims at most :D

[1500Bug]

I know quite a lot about the ceramic brakes, we have a Carrera GT which uses PCCB ceramic brakes as standard, we replaced these with Steel disks as when you use them a lot on track days they dont last long. and at £3,500 a corner to replace its not exactly economic. The pictures shown of those discs. They are shot. UNusable and NOT machineable. What looks like where some paint has peeled off, that is actually the carbon ceramic coating that is the braking friction surface. Once this starts to come off, you have to just toss them away! Sorry to put a downer on you, I would love to see a bug with PCCB brakes on. Try looking at AP Racing Carbon Brakes. These are cheaper than the Porsche carbon ceramics and just as good. We use them on a RSR Race car and when u stand on them your heart just wants to come out of your chest! Good luck with finiding some new discs

Ian

[tomac]

Only problem using this disks is that they need heat to work. With our lightweight bugs this seems to be impossible. The really suck for road use and are ony good on the track. They are build at SGL Carbon in Germany close by Augsburg. Ask them if you can machine them. If you want lighter stuff use lighter calipers like 911s or Kerscher.

[Wally]

PORSCHE says no, it is not possible nor allowed to machine them, once worn or damaged they need to be replaced no if or but.

If you use a diamond grinding tool similar to the flywheel grinding as mentioned earlier it may work but chances are that they will shatter.


I know quite a lot about the ceramic brakes, ...

The pictures shown of those discs. They are shot. UNusable and NOT machineable.

Ian

Well, people have told me before some things could not be done (using 964 cylinders on a type 4 for instance), but I am a stubborn sob....

Today I wanted to show you it IS possible to machine them and I HAVE done it! :D

http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/63336.jpg

http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/63974.jpg

They look fiber-ish, but are very smooth, I assure you ;) Its just difficult to capture with a flash light.

Still not proof they will work on the car, but one thing at the time :rolleyes:

Walter

[Sandeep]

Good for you Wally !

Strong will and determination do go along way (911 shrouds don't cool ;) )

Let us know how those brakes work out so we can envy you even more.

Good job.

Sandeep

[volkdent]

Nice job, the fact is anything is possible if you really want to do it!

Jason

[flat]

Good job Wally. I like and support your against-the-grain thinking! Keep it up!

[Chris Percival]

but I am a stubborn sod....

I man after my own heart..

[Typ Vier]

There you go, you've done it. High speed grinding, washing the particles off with lots of water. So you think they are safe to use???::eek:
Do what you want, but don't be a danger to other road users. Note the attached PORSCHE technical data referring to brake wear limit.

[yetibone]

Wally, you're an inspiration to me. I love it when people do things that others call impossible.:D

Keep the innovations coming!

[Wally]

Today I test fitted the disks and calipers on the existing M030 spindles. The 350mm disks still fitted easily in the 18" rims :)

http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/65127.jpg

http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/65128.jpg

[Sandeep]

Badass for sure ! :haveadrin

Sandeep

[vwdevotee]

It looks incredible.

http://www.caymanclub.net/gallery/files/2/6/9/5/PCCB.jpg

It looks like the surface is different from factory. Did you grind off a surface coat? How wil that effect your brake life/performance?

Like I said though, it looks incredible.

[Wally]

It looks like the surface is different from factory. Did you grind off a surface coat?

As I understood from the company that only does ceramic machining, there is/was no surface coating. The surface is super smooth again, but like I mentioned before, it just is diffcult to capture by (flash)photogragh ;)

There really is only one way to find out if it works :rolleyes:

[vwdevotee]

I just meant that the grains now look a lot larger than the factory surface. Good luck with your tests, just make sure your seatbelt is tight, and your insurance is paid up (God forbid anything should happen).

[krukab]

I think the first place where Wally is going to test them, is on the track :D

[vwdevotee]

From what I've read, that would be a bad plan. The factory doesn't recommend these for track because the thermal conductivity is really low compared with iron, and the heat destroys them REALLY fast. Apparently most people bought these and are not saddled with 10 000 USD repair bills after a few track sessions. Is that perhaps where Wally got his?

[Wally]

From what I've read, that would be a bad plan. The factory doesn't recommend these for track because the thermal conductivity is really low compared with iron, and the heat destroys them REALLY fast. Apparently most people bought these and are not saddled with 10 000 USD repair bills after a few track sessions. Is that perhaps where Wally got his?
Yes, you are totally right: they suck, don't brake well, are unsafe on the road and especially on the track and in general just a very bad idea.
This is all before I even tried it.
Whatever...

[volkdent]

While it's true that these don't work well for track applications on the cars they come on, on a light car like the bug I suspect there won't be issues with too much thermal breakdown. A lot of guys do take them off after suffering issues due to track usage, maybe that IS why they were available, but they should be overkill for the bug.

What pads are you going to end up using? Are there specific ceramic pads that need to be used?

Jason

[Wally]

While it's true that these don't work well for track applications on the cars they come on, on a light car like the bug I suspect there won't be issues with too much thermal breakdown.

Exactly! Not everybody sees the whole picture or so it seems.

A lot of guys do take them off after suffering issues due to track usage, maybe that IS why they were available,

True again; their loss, my opportunity as I saw it ;)

but they should be overkill for the bug.

How can less unsprung weight be ever 'overkill'?
As stated earlier, I just used the (smaller) rear ones on the front, so the brake action in that respect is not likely to be overkill either...

What pads are you going to end up using? Are there specific ceramic pads that need to be used?

Jason
No, as far as I could trace down, there are certain Pagid types that they come with as stock, but those are used on steel disks too. A softer than stock pad for the PCCB type 1 is usually recommended to enhance disk life for the type1 PCCB disks. There is a special tad bit softer race Pagid pad for this as well, but they are very expensive too. That leaves your very spot-on remark about the (huge) difference in weight, so I'll try another OEM (but very affordable) stock pad for these to see how it goes. I can always buy the expensive pads later if these don't work well for whatever reason. At least the disks are now good for another 300.000 km :p :lmao:

[volkdent]

"{How can less unsprung weight be ever 'overkill'?
As stated earlier, I just used the (smaller) rear ones on the front, so the brake action in that respect is not likely to be overkill either...}"

Ooops, I mean too much brake, not too light. I think the light is AWESOME, especially on a light car like ours, the weight reduction alone is reason to do the conversion you are doing. It's more brake than you'll ever use, but less weight is ALWAYS good thing. What I thought was overkill for both reasons was that guy that was putting Cayenne brakes on his chassis, those suckers are heavy AND too much brake!

I do have to say though, the thickness of the rotors should be close to minimum spec that Porsche quotes, if they are too thin they actually could shatter. I saw footage of a Corvette C6R explosion of the rotor, it wasn't pretty...

Jason

[ricola]

Wally,
Any idea when you will be in a position to try them out? Looking forward to the verdict!
Rich

[Wally]

Wally,
Any idea when you will be in a position to try them out? Looking forward to the verdict!
Rich
Well, the car is still with his *ss up in the air awaiting the further modified tranny and an engine.
I have bled the brakes and the disks and calipers are very nice aligned right now (which was a big question mark at first too!).
There is a 1/4 mile track meeting on May 18th over here, so I hope to have tried and tested the brakes by then. Maybe just with a stock 2 liter engine (the riechert one) first as the turbo engine may take a tad bit longer to be completed.

I actually think these rear brakes will be less brake force than the 304x32 disks and M030/928S front calipers I had before. These yellow rear ones up front really have smallish cups (30/28 iirc), even compared to the 993 rear calipers (34/30) I have in the...rear :lmao:
Hence the installation of the Tilton brake bias valve I have installed now with the new set-up. Depending on the bias, I may even use smaller rears (964 C2's?) afterwards.
I did think this through just a little bit you know ;)

[dub_crazee]

lookin great nate i cant wait to see the verdict

Thanks for the info on using the 2 pot 964's btw. ive just finished my rear conversion and only needed 1,5mm spacers for the caliper in the end! my mate made them from aluminium too

[Wally]

Recently I was finally able to drive a few hundreds meters round the block with the 'new' engine and also tried out the ceramic brakes.
Unfortunately, one disk probably had been flaked too much and/or turned down too little. Anyways, the new pads were eaten alive by that disk. I have never seen so much brake dust in all my life: even the fender was covered with brake pad dust!
Within a few blocks, the pad of one side of one disk was totally gone. What looked like a smooth disk was now a rough landscape again. Too bad, as the other disk was perfectly fine and so were the pads. Even though I proved you can machine these disks, too much flaking will not be possible to remedy totally. For this one bad disk even I feel more machining is not safe anymore, so the project will end here :(
Well, if you never try s/th new, you will always get the old same results.

Anyways, to be able to go to meetings this summer, I looked and found a steel replacements: Its 330x28 and comes from the rear of a 996 turbo/ C4S or 997S or turbo.
The ones I found are from a very recent 2007 997S and basically only need the caliper to be adjusted for heigth, which is very doable.
New pads (Texstar) arrived today, so the bug will be able run again this weekend :)

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/412/Remmen/100_2177.jpg

[vwdevotee]

It's too bad about the ceramics. They looked amazing. I've read that what you're doing now is really common among PCCB owners anyway though (swapping out for iron rotors).

[Steve C]

Hi Wally

To bad that it didn't work. I wonder if it would have made a difference with which direction that they were turned when machining, clockwise or anti clockwise? The fibres may have been raised up, like patting your cats fur backwards.

Steve

[Wally]

Hi Wally

To bad that it didn't work. I wonder if it would have made a difference with which direction that they were turned when machining, clockwise or anti clockwise? The fibres may have been raised up, like patting your cats fur backwards.

Steve
I see what you mean, but as I see it this stuff is not like a GRP-made fender where actual fibers are still present when you scratch or sand them. I suppose the baking process took care of that. Lets just say its weird stuff.

These recent week, I have been trying to look for a direct replacement and found many posts concerning problems with pccb brakes on Rennlist and such, like vwdevotee mentions above.
This really lets one to believe the PCCB generation I disks have indeed a serious problem in longlivety. There have been reports of disks failing as soon as 15K miles and when they do, they eat up the pads - even the 'right' original porsche pads - in very, very short time (I know now how that looks). That almost gave Porsche a (legal) claim from safety point of view...

This week, at the local porsche dismantler, he had two cars there with the PCCB (Gen.I) on them. One was his own street car (650 hp GT2 Cup) and his racer. His admitted that the first two laps on the track, it was tricky because the brakes didn't bite that much initially as he was used with the steels and indeed needed to warm-up before they performed well. Then they performed extremely well. The track car had also the beginnings of worn disks, as did the 'street' car which saw track days as well. A spare set of PCCB's gen I from a wrecked car he also had looked immaculate however. Even the yellow calipers had no discolorization, suggeting no overheating had taken place.
All this info I got there leads me to believe that excessive (over)heating is what kills these disks rapidly. That is probably why porsche made the
the generation II disks, which have 2000 fibers instead of 400 per unit (so I have read) and are 380mm instead of 350mm diameter for even better cooling.
Even with these, the Manthey racing team supposedly uses one set of the Gen.II disks at every race. Well, at least they now sustain at least the whole race...
So much about the ceramics :rolleyes:
The 'pancake' disks the I have now om still look huge IRL; I just have to look elsewhere for saving some unsprung weight I guess. The really light pccb calipers I can maintain do help a bit fortunately. Total weight of rotor and caliper as compared to the former set-up is still 1,5kg less ;-)

[Sandeep]

Thanks for the update Wally.

Sorry to hear that it did not work out (50%) but you're only 50% away from having a working pair :)

Glad to hear you have a working solution now.

Sandeep