Has anyone installed ABS on an ACVW?

[Cam]

Just wondering if anyone has fitted an ABS system to their beetle, type 3, or so on?

I'm thinking about going to turbo 944 brakes on my type 3 (eventually :D ) and would be interested in knowing how much extra work would be involved in using the ABS system as well as just the hubs, rotors & calipers?

[DORIGTT]

Bader-racing installed ABS in the Ghia they put together.

[Rob]

I just read an article in VolksWorld (I think) about a company that's going to build an ABS kit... I'll see if I can find it.

Rob.

[Wally]

My 944T Cup brake set-up has the complete ABS set-up as well, but the abs-pump was heavy and i decided back then not to hook it up. Too much extra brake lines as well plus I feel I don't really need it on the track.

[72marinablue]

this months hot vw's has a really nice turbo fuel injection cover car sitting on fiksies wheels. They installed a traction control system on the car by using a speed sensor on each hub. The system also has a dash adjustable nob. Not exactly abs but still a cool system that could possible tie in with abs.

[Wally]

this months hot vw's has a really nice turbo fuel injection cover car sitting on fiksies wheels. They installed a traction control system on the car by using a speed sensor on each hub. The system also has a dash adjustable nob. Not exactly abs but still a cool system that could possible tie in with abs.

Well, you don't need a speed sensor on each hub for that. Just one on a driven and one on a non-driven wheel will do.
I have just tried that with my DTA-ecu, which supports full traction control, but the sensor-ring of the abs is too small. ie has too many teeth per circle..
I have now mounted a universal Hall-effect sensor and welded 4 bigger teeth on the hub, but no succes yet in recieving a signal, not even for using at as a speedo...
But I will keep at it till it does work. At least launch control is manually working, which is usefull with a turbo as you can keep the turbo spinning with WOT while the ecu holds the engine at a given rpm.
But I am wondering off ;)

[ricola]

I just read an article in VolksWorld (I think) about a company that's going to build an ABS kit... I'll see if I can find it.

Rob.


Yes it was Volksworld, the black Oval cover car was built by the owner of Tygan Speedsters in the UK and they sy they are using the car as a test bed for developments including ABS...

[al_kaholik]

Current issue? May have to have a peek. Have been thinking about it and everyone's interest seems to coem and go with it. If you wanted a 3 circuit system (2 fronts and on rear, or vice versa) a lot of the older stand alone systems would work. Volvo was one I considered, but there is much argument about it all and what would and would not work. I'd be interested to see a definitive answer

[2443TT]

Most factory cars with ABS have it for safety on the street. For those AHHHH something in front of me, stabs on the brakes and would normally lock the wheels up situations.

ABS systems like these are often removed from track cars as it can sometimes engage too early, and make breaking into a corner unpredictable and inconsistent. Prime example is the N1 gtr's which have the ABS removed from factory.

ABS designed for race cars... now thats an entirely different thing. I'd imagine its very specialised and youd have to talk to an F1 technician to learn how to set it up in a car. I think aerodynamic improvements are the go first.

[Cam]

I was primarily interested in it for a daily driver. Obviously if you could pirate a complete set-up (master cyl, ABS unit, hubs and/or rotors) from an apt model it would make life much easier. Hence my interest in the 944 Turbo S parts. Can anyone confirm if the hubs and master cylinder can be mounted relatively hassle free? If so, then it's really just sorting out ancillaries and plumbing...

[2443TT]

You'd have to use '86 or earlier parts if they even have ABS?

The 1988 944S is the same as 1988 944 turbo thru 1994 968. Generally most of the parts are not normally beetle compatible, unless your into some moderate to extreme fabrication.

The later model stuff would introduce a lot of parts compatibility issues. 100mm wider each side in the rear end, rear axel and hubs have diferent splines(not early 944 or beetle compatible), balljoint-spindle mounts are much larger than beetle. You might be able to get away with mixing some early and late parts and use all the abs control stuff from a later model car then. A little custom work as well would be required. If you have access to play around with a lot of parts it would be interesting to see what measures up and fits together.

[Cam]

hrrm... Looks like 88 was when ABS started for them.
Seems like more trouble than what it's really worth. Still, couldn't hurt to ask :D

[vwdevotee]

From what I know about Bader's Ghia (if only he would frequent this site, things would be so much nicer), he just used the 944 ABS sensors at the wheels, and a 993 pump and controller. Since on the 993 most all of the electronic systems are independent, it's not too much of a wiring nightmare.

Conceptually it's pretty simple to retrofit, but finding a car with a very similar weight balance seems trickier. In talking to him (Jochen), he said the tire diameter is irrelevant as well as the actual weights on the corners. So long as the tires are the same height, and the balance is close, you're golden.

[Simon]

There are independent ABS ECU's available, for example from Bosch, see:
http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/content/language2/html/3490.htm
The price quoted on the Bosch site is EUR 5350,00, AFAIK it can be had a little cheaper (like EUR 4500), but basically it's really expensive :)

They are for motorsport use though, so sensors on every wheel (you could use them as an electronic "diff"), and they can be programmed exactly the way you want it with the included software.

[Axl]

From what I know about Bader's Ghia (if only he would frequent this site, things would be so much nicer), he just used the 944 ABS sensors at the wheels, and a 993 pump and controller. Since on the 993 most all of the electronic systems are independent, it's not too much of a wiring nightmare.

Conceptually it's pretty simple to retrofit, but finding a car with a very similar weight balance seems trickier. In talking to him (Jochen), he said the tire diameter is irrelevant as well as the actual weights on the corners. So long as the tires are the same height, and the balance is close, you're golden.

You just touched on a good point . If your car is running bigs and littles for wheels , then any ABS system will be a nightmare . The system looks at wheel speed diferential and then compensates by reducing pressures to the wheel it thinks is locking up . The differential in wheel speeds with different tires would confuse the system into thinking the rear tires are braking quicker than the fronts (the bigger tires will be turning slower , if I remembering it correctly) . This in turn would give you uneven braking .

[Steve C]

Hi

I have Toyota Hi Lux for work, these utes/pickups front discs and rear drums and it appears that they only have 2 channel ABS.

I'm not sure but I imagine that there would be a speed sensor on the rear axle as well.

Ive often wondered if this more simple system would be an easier retro fit to a ACVW.

I can see the arguments for and against ABS, but if your having a blond moment and just jump on the brakes the ABS could save your bacon.

Steve

[Axl]

Hi

I have Toyota Hi Lux for work, these utes/pickups front discs and rear drums and it appears that they only have 2 channel ABS.

I'm not sure but I imagine that there would be a speed sensor on the rear axle as well.

Ive often wondered if this more simple system would be an easier retro fit to a ACVW.

I can see the arguments for and against ABS, but if your having a blond moment and just jump on the brakes the ABS could save your bacon.

Steve


A lot of the older trucks (and even some not so older ones - as in my 2002 Dodge Dakota) are just using whats called RWAL abs (rear wheel anti lock) . These systems have a sensor on the rear axle and compare it to the speed of the vehicle . Its meant to prevent rear wheel lock-up from the light rear end of a truck . I found over the years working on them that they are marginal at best .

[Steve C]

Hi

This Toyota has proper looking ABS system, just not as many tubes. It sure seems effective when its been activated as a test by me.

Steve

[Axl]

In your pics , I see at least 5 brake lines , and there is most likely 6 . This makes it a 4WAL system (4 Wheel Anti Lock) . This a much better system , and I wish my Dakota had this .

[Steve C]

Hi

I also have a Toyota Prado, it has wheel ABS, its not here at the moment but it has many more brakes lines.

There 5 lines on the unit. The front circuit feeds into the unit straight from the MC, the rear circuit also feeds into the unit via T piece.

It has 3 output lines, 2 go to the front brakes, 1 goes to the rear along with the line from the MC that has been Teed.

Steve

[evilC]

Whilst abs is a desireable feature, here in the UK it can be a pain especially on older vehicles. If fitted it has to work, the warning light sequence is monitored for the annual vehicle test and it is a fail if the light doesn't light when it should or stay on when it shouldn't. If abs is not fitted then it can't be tested and so can't fail on that. Replacement abs parts can be horrifically expensive, in many cases easily more than the vehicle is worth. If the abs fails on any of my vehicles I will remove it in its entirety. On a cost/benefit analysis for me it doesn't stack up.

Clive

[vwdevotee]

Hmm... I'm a little shocked that during your MOT test the inspector would even look into stuff that was not originally fitted. I suppose one option would be to use something like a 951 system that is self contained and just not hook up the warning lamp. Then theere is no lamp to fail inspection. Besides, I've never understood the virtue of having the ABS lamp come on when you brake hard enough activate the system anyway. If that's the case you're probably not looking at the dashboard, and you can feel the system working anyway.

[evilC]

I suppose that you can understand the beaurocracy in so far as if they don't implement a 'if fitted it must work' principle then the MOT inspectors would be open to huge debates as to whether a particular model was fitted with this or that originally and then there would be arguments as to whether it was fitted in particular markets and then imported etc etc etc....................................It wouldn't be just abs, it would be any modification. The principle does mean that I can delete stuff thats too expensive to fix (within reason). A £3000 abs pump on a vehicle thats only worth £1000 is dumb. yet it might be perfect in all other respects and be a completely safe vehicle to use without the electronic gubbins.