Mythbuster: continuing project thread of my 1303 '75

[judgie]

when i first built my car i had no rear wing and the car felt very odd at speeds over 70mph. i fitted a rice rear wing and it made a very noticable differance to the stabilty in long corners. since fitting the lola rear wing [ which is huge] it has made a huge differance, you notice it above 50mph but it is running a big attack angle and the top plane is almost stalled !
first wing
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2075/1724197006_2495b3b350_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/14062637@N03/1724197006/)
untitled (http://www.flickr.com/photos/14062637@N03/1724197006/) by robjudge1313 (http://www.flickr.com/people/14062637@N03/), on Flickr

lola rear wing
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2263/1724003792_9cf86f131d_z.jpg?zz=1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/14062637@N03/1724003792/)
IMAGE_00089 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/14062637@N03/1724003792/) by robjudge1313 (http://www.flickr.com/people/14062637@N03/), on Flickr

[70Turbobug]

You have still crazy ideas about attainable speeds with a beetle there Mark!
Your way, way off... ;-)


LOL ! I know..and your still too conservative - so the truth lies somewhere in the middle:lmao: I was just kidding about the 250+ of course..
However,you should notice a difference in corner speeds i.e. have more grip in the high speed corners than before the spoiler - if it works properly and produces more down force than drag.I have an interesting PDF file on building race cars and it covers spoilers,diffusors,etc. quite extensively if you´re interested.It´s in German,which isn´t much of a problem for you.

[Wally]

Thanks for the input Rob! Your wing is a little over the top for me, but it confirms my beliefs that it must make a difference if executed in the right way.

Mark, during TouristenFahren, the long straight is closed for the return lane and toll booth, so there really is no actual straigh on the Nordschleife during TF...even though there are a few really fast parts, they all have some degree of bend(s) in them. Still managed 200 km/h last saturday as my digit speedo records max speed.
I was very pleased with that as I never got that fast on a non-straight before and it could very well have to do with the extra safety/stability feeling the 'wing' gave.
The Ring has a lot of long bends, so that would coincide with Rob's experience as well :)

Hope we see each other at Action again in 2,5 weeks Rob! Undertray and wing will not be there then though as the car will be in full drag-race mode by then :D

I promise, these will be the last:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/1303/148_3600001.jpg

A few brits spotted us on the parking and round-about just before the entrance and made this pic ;)
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/1303/P1010461__1600x1200_.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/1303/P1010469__1600x1200_.jpg

[70Turbobug]

Nice pic in the "caroussel" ;)

[Wally]

After the circuit driving comes the drag racing action at VWAction at Santa Pod raceway

3rd gear burn-out to warm the tires:
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/1303/IMGP4257.jpg
to do this
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/1303/IMGP4155.jpg

Result was an 11.62 @ 119.8 mph and I drove all the way home again (450km) with it packed with my camping gear.

[Xellex]

haha, congrats! Was this the first time you took the front wheels off the ground?

[Luismj]

:eek::eek::eek: :notworthy: Nice pic!!!

[wrenchnride247]

That's great news Wally! That will have some T1 people scratching thier heads about T4's. Love the "wheels up" launch!

[Wally]

haha, congrats! Was this the first time you took the front wheels off the ground?

Yeah, scared the heck out of me as I try to keep the front as heavy as possible for good balance with circuit use: Battery, oil DS tank, waterinj.tank, catch tank, 2 fuel pumps, some steel braces, steel bumper etc etc...
Still, bloody proud of course of a fat track chick doing a wheelie :D and very happy no flywheels or drivetrain parts were blown :)

[70Turbobug]

Wow the pig can fly!:D Congrats Wally! 11,62 for a circuit car is impressive enough,but a wheelie?! Very cool!! AS you correctly stated,the most important thing is that nothing broke.

[Humble]

Wheels up on a circuit car is pretty damn impressive for sure! I would definitely be worried about something breaking but it's good to see everything held together.

Since I got my car dynoed I've been looking at your dyno sheets more. Is your car 381hp/337trq at the wheels or is that corrected flywheel horsepower? I'm going to be adding a water/air intercooler on my setup so I'm wondering how much power I'll pick up. Also what intake temps are you hitting when you're up around 15-20 psi?

[Wally]

Double post

[Wally]

Wheels up on a circuit car is pretty damn impressive for sure! I would definitely be worried about something breaking but it's good to see everything held together.

I was actually a worried, as my buddies car did break his transmission and it would have been my only possibility to piggy back to the mainland as his car is (well, was :D ) a street legal car as well and was towed on an ambulance to the event. The wheelie was after his car already had broken... but I went for it anyway :rolleyes:


Since I got my car dynoed I've been looking at your dyno sheets more. Is your car 381hp/337trq at the wheels or is that corrected flywheel horsepower? I'm going to be adding a water/air intercooler on my setup so I'm wondering how much power I'll pick up. Also what intake temps are you hitting when you're up around 15-20 psi?
Yes, that was corrected flywheel hp ;) Coorection for whp is/was about 15%.
IAT not sure exactly, but those are usually pretty low, around 25-30 Celcius ( ~70-80F?).

At Santa Pod I was running a 'little' more boost and a little more timing, so I think I'll revisit the dyno again sometime to see what that was ;)

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/1303/SantaPod2010-burnout-zoom.jpg~original

[NO_H2O]

Nice work. Love the "wheels up" shot.

[Fast65]

having seen wallys car last weekend, i can say its an awesome car every run seamed easy, no fuss, no effort a very well put together car with a nice guy driving it :)

cheers andy

[Wally]

Thanks for that Andy! It was definately great finally meeting up with you guys. The photoshoot with all of us on the track at once was real fun too!
Definately hope your car is there next time. It sure sounds very promising what you've build so far.

The clutch I run now is not as effortlessly to operate with drag starts mind you. The wheelie was actually a real big bog, but the other way around, but don't tell anybody I said that :rolleyes:

and welcome to the german car board ;)

[Luismj]

Wally,

This really beautiful picture! :eek:
One question ... the clutch is noisy or works smoothly? What are you thinking now about the double kennedy clutch?
Thank you.

[Wally]

Wally,

One question ... the clutch is noisy or works smoothly? What are you thinking now about the double kennedy clutch?

That are two questions :)
Actually both: its noisy when depressing the pedal, but smooth on all other moments.
So far, only this kennedy double clutch holds the power and gives me a light (=street friendly in my book) pedal.

More surprising is the stock cast flywheel still holds. I would rather have a steel ('forged') flywheel, but only 200mm and 215 seems to be available (the 215 only very recently and is not in stock afaik).

[Wally]

Received this photo from Santa Pod's official track-side photographer. I really like this one.
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/MF4M3109.jpg~original

[NO_H2O]

That is a nice one.

[vdubzack]

I think i found my new screen saver

[70Turbobug]

I think i found my new screen saver

Hehe,yeah he does post some nice pics,doesn´t he? I have a dedicated folder aswell :o The updates and events that are posted are really great reading and inspiring - keep up the good work Wally!

[wrenchnride247]

Very nice pic!! :rockon:

[Wally]

Tnx guys!

I seem to have reached some sort of goal already with the latest dyno run. A goal I had planned only after some major engine updates for the next year(s), but this one already took me there :)

This is corrected engine hp at the crank. Power at the wheels was 342.4 at 6150 rpm. BTW 500 Nm ~ 370 lbs.ft (also at the crank)
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/400pkrunHRengineering002.jpg~original

The remaining goal is a '10 second' car...As I am only an '11-second driver', that goal may take some more time and/or even more power... :lmao:

[Humble]

Damn, those are some good numbers. What turbo are you using now? I'd like to clear 300whp with the addition of an intercooler.

[Sandeep]

400 HP in a daily driver ... congratulations :notworthy: :clap:

How's that cast iron flywheel holding up ? How much boost were you running on that run ? Because of you, I'm looking for a short nose G50 now :lmao:

Thanks for the updates.

Sandeep

[Wally]

How's that cast iron flywheel holding up ?

I dunno...but it does (obviously :rolleyes:). That is the part I would like to exchange the fastest if I could..but no-one makes a steel 228mm T4 as a regular part. I did see 200 and 215mm, but not (yet?) 228mm.. and a custum flywheel is very expensive. Thought about getting and welding up the steel 215mm, but not sure if one can just do that.


How much boost were you running on that run ?

specially for you I 'print screened' the log of the run while I was there, cause I knew you were gonna ask that :) also since the boost varies (..) its hard to say what boost it was. Depends on when in the run, but nobody wants to hear that answer I suppose.
Boost does taper off and I think its the too small exhaust housing. This combined with the back pressure readings says it all imo. In defense of the turbo, I do suspect the initial high boost is some sort of spike and I need to back down the 'gain' setting on the EBC...but I wanted to run exactly like it was at Santa Pod when I did the 1/4 mile there.

To make things clearer: the car runs from right --> left side of the sheet!
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/400pkrun.jpg~original
Lemme know if you have any q's regarding the log, but look at that IDC climbing towards 80%! and those are 1000cc injectors (at 3.0 bar) run at 3,25bar fuel pressure...

If you look at the dyno sheet again, you may have noticed the power falling off as of 6200 rpm, while the run before it seemed to want to go on beyond the 6600 rpm limit we set then. Hence the 7000 rpm we ran this time...very dangerous as more boost and more rpm is tricky without chevy springs, but I went for it anyway as it ran like this rpm and boost in england and held up.
The ripple after 6200 rpm is valve starting to bounce of the seat imo...
So, I need better valve springs and a bigger turbo haha!


Because of you, I'm looking for a short nose G50 now :lmao:
Sandeep
Sorry 'bout that... :lmao:

[70Turbobug]

Congrats Wally! That is really awesome! That curve is amazing - actually it´s not much of a curve,more like a rocket start..:D If I read the log correct,your max boost was 1,46 bar? What springs are you running now? Do you think that your valves were beginning to float? Richard sent me an interesting link on springs they use in drag bikes. http://www.psisprings.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20.

[Sandeep]

Thanks for the detailed information and posting the log.

I have 370lb springs in the twin plug heads, but they will lose some pressure as they are run, estimating 10% so should end up at 330lbs. I told Len that I would not be boosting past 20psi though, or revving past 6500 rpm.

I based my turbine selection (Garret GT3076R, 0.63 hot side) on information provided mostly through Subaru boards, as the STI engine is 2457cc vs my 2413cc, and I had no aircooled data at the time. It is 4v vs 2v though as far as valves per cylinder is concerned, but I think the 2v per head should have better intake velocity.

The .63 is supposed to provide better spool but not as much top end as the .82, which is the next step up for the Garret GT3076R.

I was looking at an honest 300 FWHP motor, not stressed but living a comfortable life, but it looks like 350-375 FWHP should be more realistinc.

Thanks for all of the information, your motor build has been very educational and inspirational and I hope to be able to join your ranks in the coming months.

Sandeep

[Wally]

If I read the log correct,your max boost was 1,46 bar?

Not really: that point was just where the cursor was at that moment. More random therefore. Boost was about 1.0 bar at 4K, then climbing further to just over 1.7 bar at around 5K, then tapering to 1,5 at 6K and further down to 1,4 bar at 7K.
On the road, in 4th, 1 bar is reached at 3600 rpm if its not too hot outside.
Just follow the horizontal lines on the y-axis at the right. The scale is there. If you can read plots, it shouldn't be too hard to see what is reached when ;)

What springs are you running now? Do you think that your valves were beginning to float?


The ripple after 6200 rpm is valve starting to bounce of the seat imo...

;) I use the Berg dual springs with Ti retainers. I will try to install my CB650's over winter. That will sort that out.

@Sandeep: I think every motor is different and maybe I have restrictions elsewhere, but boost is tapering despite my EBC set at closed-loop... so I suspect my 8cm² turbine (~0,63-ish I think) is just too small for these kind of hp. My back pressure readings kinda confimed this imo.
For an even bigger engine like your comming 2413cc, I would surely get the 0,82 A/R if you had free choice. You may loose some spool as opposed to the 0,63, but you already got that covered by the 200cc's more you have over mine...
I also looked heavily at what Subaru owners use (hence my DOM3 I got off a us Suby owner) and this combined with my current experience, I would surely get the 82 for your 2413cc. Our engines are just more responsive by themselves somehow I think.
You don't want to know what my next turbo/turbine size will be...:D

[Sandeep]

I'll keep the .82 in mind before I take the .63 out of its new packaging :D

My guess on your next turbo is a minimum of a GT35R (GT3582) or somewhere there abouts ... 400 to 650 HP on a minimum 2.0l.

You got to 400hp quickly with this build so I'm thinking ~500hp minimum is your next goal :eek:

Sandeep

[Wally]

I'll keep the .82 in mind before I take the .63 out of its new packaging :D

A _very_ nice compromise would be the Tial stainless housing :rolleyes: Its ~0.78 A/R iirc and saves a lot of weight on the right side of the car...;)

My guess on your next turbo is a minimum of a GT35R (GT3582) or somewhere there abouts ... 400 to 650 HP on a minimum 2.0l.

You got to 400hp quickly with this build so I'm thinking ~500hp minimum is your next goal :eek:

Sandeep
I have no hp goal, but only seek the 'perfect' turbo.
Its not anything like you mention though... :rolleyes:
When (if?) it gets here, I'll sure let you know/show you. It is meant for after an engine upgrade tbh, but it would be interesting to try it on the 2,2 first and see the difference later on the bigger engine (which will take a year or two probably..).

[Wally]

Just finally got confirmation that the new turbo had been produced and a small batch was shipped from the Borg-Warner plant to Full-Race.com which just shipped one out to me :D:D:D

How big? Its a T4 Twin-scroll with a compressor in between a 35R and a 40R, so its fairly big :lmao:

Also got a second hand, but unused waste-gate from evil bay, but need a second one because of the twin-scroll lay-out.
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/TialWG001.jpg~original

[Bad bug]

Damn, those are some good numbers. What turbo are you using now? I'd like to clear 300whp with the addition of an intercooler.

Have you looked into the holset HX35 turbo. The guys in Europe seem to like holsets. They are cheap and make a lot of power and they are very strong.

[Bad bug]

Just finally got confirmation that the new turbo had been produced and a small batch was shipped from the Borg-Warner plant to Full-Race.com which just shipped one out to me :D:D:D

How big? Its a T4 Twin-scroll with a compressor in between a 35R and a 40R, so its fairly big :lmao:

Also got a second hand, but unused waste-gate from evil bay, but need a second one because of the twin-scroll lay-out.
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/TialWG001.jpg~original


Hey wally you finally going to do the twin scroll turbo setup. Glad you are because i want to use a twin scroll Holset on my 1835cc engine once i build it.

[70Turbobug]

For an even bigger engine like your comming 2413cc, I would surely get the 0,82 A/R if you had free choice. You may loose some spool as opposed to the 0,63, but you already got that covered by the 200cc's more you have over mine...

I agree 100%. The .63 Housing will be too small for a 2.4 L engine.It would spol extremely quick,but I don´t think you would be happy with it.Our Boxer engines make torque really quick and spool turbos usually quicker than other engines,especially as soon as the engine is under load.IMHO due to the 2 valve design and "uncluttered" chamber and realtively short intake and exhaust ports and the large amounts of air volume and air speed generated at lower rpms.Maybe the Subaru guys have to choose a smaller housing to "dial in" their spool up time due to the central/single throtlebody and long intake runners? Just a hunch though on my part,I don´t know enough about the suby for a better argument.
Another thought of mine is,that Wally may need a larger housing because the core engine is more that of a high rpm engine with the large bore and short stroke.So maybe his "power range" is much higher in the rpm band and out of the optimum efficiency range of the current turbine housing.Also the cam (here we go again..) has enough duration and lift to deliver higher rpms and with the 114° (?) LC more stability and valve control and longer off seat time.

[Clatter]

My understanding is that the Vanagon Waterboxer flywheel is forged.
Unlike the Bus, which is cast.

if you see them side-by-side it looks that way.

They both have the same 228, dimensions, etc...

[Wally]

My understanding is that the Vanagon Waterboxer flywheel is forged.
Unlike the Bus, which is cast.

if you see them side-by-side it looks that way.

They both have the same 228, dimensions, etc...

Unfortunately, that myth was busted also...both are cast.

[Humble]

Sounds like you're getting a turbo somewhere in the gt37 family :) I've actually been looking at the gt37 turbos but I don't have a twin scroll setup. I did find a duall ball bearing replacement cartridge for my t3/t4 so that is a tempting alternative.

[Wally]

I dunno the GT37 family, but this is the Borg-Warner that arrived today. Its freaking HUGE! but I love it :D

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Borg-Warnerturbo003.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Borg-Warnerturbo004.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Borg-Warnerturbo002.jpg

[Sandeep]

Wow ! That is "big time" right there, where are you planning on installing it ? :eek:

Sandeep

[Wally]

Wow ! That is "big time" right there, where are you planning on installing it ? :eek:

Sandeep

Same-ish location but it will be a challenge for sure. Plus two (2) external waste-gates that need room somewhere too...
It WILL however be installed there, if it likes it or not :lmao:

[NO_H2O]

Some grease and a 6 foot shoehorn should get it in there. LOL

[70Turbobug]

Git´er done Wally!:D That´s big boy allright.You could make a sort of Y- connection for the 2 wastegates and mount them a littel further away.As long as the angle of the pipe is in the direction of exhaust flow it will work just like a shorter connection.It will work trust me,aircraft bleed air systems have such junctions all over and there is never a problem with lack of response.

[Supa Ninja]

Wally your new BW just gave me a full chub. That thing is going to be a monster!

[Wally]

Wally your new BW just gave me a full chub. That thing is going to be a monster!

Yeah, it has monster potential anyways. Lets just hope it doesn't take 6K rpm to spool :rolleyes:

[Supa Ninja]

well thats the double edge sword of big turbo's, it will come down to the flow of your engine.

[70Turbobug]

The twin scroll housing will help spool up that large turbo. It´s like having 2 smaller housings that meet up shortly before the turbine wheel.Exhaust gas energy is a little faster and hotter than with a single scroll.

[Wally]

Coming friday 12th November I will enter a driving instruction on the Nurburgring and as its half November, it might get cold then and its a 3,5 hour drive for us.
So, I have installed heating now in the form of a B1L Eberspächer petrol heater. It works and gives off a LOT of heat!

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Chassis/EberspcherStandkachel002.jpg~original

[Sandeep]

Great news on the driving instruction. Is this the first course you've taken ?

Sandeep

[70Turbobug]

You´ll never want to miss that heater..trust me! Especially at your age ;) LOL :D

[Wally]

Yes more or less: I have had instructors beside me a few times before during track days, but this will be the first time on the Nurburgring.
Its not a complete course as such, but its more like that exerienced drivers will drive in front of a small group of 3-6 cars that will change position so that everyone has driven behind the instructor car at one time.
Track is closed for normal Touristenfahrten and also closed (more importantly) for bikes.

[70Turbobug]

Sounds like fun anyways! It will also be a great learning experience aswell and you will be more informed about the dangerous spots of the ring,although each car reacts differently to that aswell,but it will give you a good heads up on it.That would be course I would like to take aswell whenever my car is finished - the ring might be a museum by then:(

[MX67]

With this turbo, You'll need all You can get.

I allways say that money spent in sports-driving school and in brakes-shop are best spent. Nurburgring is tricky, even when you change speed - 10 km/h more, and that's completely another track. More bumps, asphalt change, and different way of driving. It's most challenging track in Europe, maybe even worldwide.

Go on Wally, I'm with You on this turbo. What is Your horsepower expectation?

[Wally]

With this turbo, You'll need all You can get.

I allways say that money spent in sports-driving school and in brakes-shop are best spent. Nurburgring is tricky, even when you change speed - 10 km/h more, and that's completely another track. More bumps, asphalt change, and different way of driving. It's most challenging track in Europe, maybe even worldwide.

Go on Wally, I'm with You on this turbo. What is Your horsepower expectation?

I hear you!
BTW The new turbo is not in it yet at all; it may even take until may 2011 probably as I am buidling a 1200 Challenge turbo T1 engine, but/because thats an entirely different 'challenge' for me ;)
The Borg-warner flows about 200 hp more then this Garrett, but i don't expect to be able to use that potential on the current engine. It would be interesting to see where its limits are though.

Tomorrow's track-instruction-day is not only just cold, but probably mostly wet as well. To describe the Ring as 'tricky' in the wet would probably be an understatement...
Lets hope we keep things in one piece.

[TSAF]

Have fun and let us know how it was.

[MX67]

... as I am buidling a 1200 Challenge turbo T1 engine...

Give us link so we can see what youre doing! :D

Enjoy Nurburgring :goodjob:

[NO_H2O]

Sounds like a great class to take. "The Ring 101".

[Wally]

Yeah, it was indeed s/th like Ring101 with a local theory night the week before organized by one of the enthousiasts.

I have completed about 5 pace-car laps' at mostly very slow speeds, which was great for concentrating on the ideal lines the front car was running. No bikes or overtaking faster cars to get distracted by either these days.
Learned a lot today and with a perfect stay at www.ringpension.de the night before, it was a perfect closure of the season for me.

Car ran great on the track and the 700 km back and to the Ring

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/1303/Driving-funtrackdayRingpacelaps001.jpg

Spotted:
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/1303/spottet.jpg

Very slow cruising as you can see and what happens if you don't...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gptzSxWC36E

[Steve C]

Hi Wally

How did the bug perform with the other cars? Looks like there were some nice cars there.

Steve

[Wally]

Hey Steve,

It was mostly a wet track, only partially dry and the Ring is very tricky in the wet. Now we also had some leaves on the track, some dry parts mixed with wet parts, so even more tricky..
Performance was on nobody's mind really ;)
Learned a lot about better lines though and that's what I came for.

Greets,
Walter

[Wally]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4088/5171147345_fea36d55c0_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4083/5171129615_0870164945_b.jpg

http://trackpix.net/gen/ishow.php?pic=nordschleife/2010/11-12/IMG_0190.jpg

http://trackpix.net/gen/ishow.php?pic=nordschleife/2010/11-12/IMG_0192.jpg

http://trackpix.net/gen/ishow.php?pic=nordschleife/2010/11-12/IMG_0386.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4108/5171975899_cf0f29dbe2_b.jpg

[Wally]

http://danpy.autofans.nl/images/evenementen/2010/DF_Ring/IMG_0953.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_OTc6Yfslc6k/TOAAZcR8ENI/AAAAAAAArQI/HVNm5Ti7IX4/IMG_0911.jpg

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_OTc6Yfslc6k/TOATBYy3AHI/AAAAAAAArV4/anu6eJj9DLs/s720/IMG_1071.jpg

We drive by in the instruction laps at ~0:50 and 2:50 min ;)

http://vimeo.com/16812576

[Fast65]

looks great wally :)

cheers andy

[TSAF]

Wallly, it seems to me you had a lot of fun. Tell us the truth now, did you "play" with any of the gt3's?

[Wally]

Wallly, it seems to me you had a lot of fun. Tell us the truth now, did you "play" with any of the gt3's?

I have said it again and will do so now: the Nurburgring is not about your car or the power you have and lack of. It really is about knowing the track or not and driver ability.
An experienced Ringdriver with half my power to weight ratio drives around me so to speak.
That day the track was partially wet and dry-ish and on some parts it rained a bit, so what do you think happens with people that ' play' with other cars to show off their power: yes, they hit the amco and pay thousands for repairs, at best. Worst case is you kill yourself or somebody else or even worse: the guy sitting beside me in the passenger seat and I can explain his wife and kids...
That doesn;t mean I drive there as a pussy. We experienced a rear end break-out and some more tire slippage and I caught both, but you don't play with any other cars there, really.
Not meaning to sound annoyed, but you should really experience it there, then you will have more respect for the track, trust me ;)

[TSAF]

I understand what you mean as I also compete in FIA historic rallies as a co-driver(sporting). I am just joking around.

[Wally]

Alright then, sorry I took it so seriously ;)

As 8 cars were more or less seriously damaged that day (even during the very slow pace training laps as you saw on the first video), I take these well meant comments sometimes too seriously as you can see :o

[TSAF]

No worries my friend.

[NO_H2O]

Looks like it was a great day. Any day you can drive the ring with an instructor and learn the track and your car is a good day.

[oasis]

That doesn;t mean I drive there as a pussy.
I love this thread, and I love the most recent account of driving at this world famous track. The above quote almost got me in trouble as I am not supposed to bust out laughing while at work. Everything here is grimly serious. ;)

Great stuff as usual.

[Wally]

Looks like it was a great day. Any day you can drive the ring with an instructor and learn the track and your car is a good day.
+1

TSAF: :cool:

Oasis: :D sorry my language almost got you into trouble. I only just got it :lmao:

[70Turbobug]

Great pics Wally! Sounds like a great experience! The ring is no playground - that´s for sure! Going through such as course is worth it and actively driving the proper line teaches you the track better than anything else.I went through a week of motorcycle race school in Willow Springs when I was stationed at Edwards AFB,CA. which is right next to Willow Springs basically.I learned more that week than all the years of experience before and after.Most accidents occur when people think they can "Vettel around around the ring" after a few sessions of Gran Turismo on the play station and end up killing themselves..Never lose respect no matter what track you´re on - I learned the hard way after crashing the bike at over 200km/h - luckily I didn´t break anything but my shoulder still gives me trouble every now and then.

[Simon]

Maybe this could be of use/interest?
Although you probably don't want to switch your air-air intercooler for a water-air one and there isn't as much space available above the transmission compared to a 911

The intercooler has been removed from the top of the engine, the factory location, and placed over the transmission to allow for maximum airflow through the Turbo decklid, and according to Schimmel it dramatically improves cooling performance within the forced induction system.
http://www.europeancarweb.com/features/epcp_0904_1985_porsche_911_turbo_bill_schimmel/garrett_gt3071r_turbochargers.html

[Wally]

Maybe this could be of use/interest?
Although you probably don't want to switch your air-air intercooler for a water-air one and there isn't as much space available above the transmission compared to a 911



Did you know that the 9ff-boss changed the water-air chargecooler in favour of an air-air intercooler because...wait for it.... the air-air ones flowed and cooled better?
That was in one of his 1200hp record setting 911's ;)

But really, I have no air intake temp problems or gains to be had in that department. IAT stays really low, even at 24psi boost ;-)

[Simon]

Did you know that the 9ff-boss changed the water-air chargecooler in favour of an air-air intercooler because...wait for it.... the air-air ones flowed and cooled better?
That was in one of his 1200hp record setting 911's ;)

But really, I have no air intake temp problems or gains to be had in that department. IAT stays really low, even at 24psi boost ;-)

Blue thunder explained it once as well, and air-air one is more efficient (for the same size/space) as a water-air one.

1.65 bar sounds good! ;)

[ricola]

They are really for two different kinds of situation. For hard driving on sustained boost an air/air would be better, for normal more varied driving a water/air would be better. The water has a MUCH higher conductivity and thermal capacity so it absorbs the peak temperatures much better, the only problem then is that you are then on to the next limiting factor which is the volume of water and how effectively you can cool that. Also there is the additional weight to factor in for the air/water system but it also has the benefits of generally having shorter pipework required so slightly better response.

At the end of the day all installations like ours are bespoke, as are the builder's requirements...

Wally has obviously got his to work well with short pipework so is definitely on to a winning solution!

[Steve C]

Hi

An advantage for drags etc with a air 2 water IC is that you can fit a ice box in the system to really take the heat out of the cooling water, not really practical on road car.

On a road car you cant stay on boost for very long until you have to back off, so a air 2 water IC will smooth out the spikes in intake temps, were Wallys air 2 air IC is a winner for him is that when the motor needs the cooler intake temps his car is usually travelling at constant high speeds with lots of air flow over the IC.

Steve

[Wally]

Hi

An advantage for drags etc with a air 2 water IC is that you can fit a ice box in the system to really take the heat out of the cooling water, not really practical on road car.

On a road car you cant stay on boost for very long until you have to back off, so a air 2 water IC will smooth out the spikes in intake temps, were Wallys air 2 air IC is a winner for him is that when the motor needs the cooler intake temps his car is usually travelling at constant high speeds with lots of air flow over the IC.

Steve

Yeah, very true Steve, but probably because of the sheer size of my air-air intercooler, I even see intake temps going down the short runs of the 1/4 mile.
Right on the starting line, after waiting and idling in hot summer periods, temps do climb however, but the water/meth injection usually takes care of those elevated temps. Temps never got over 40-45 Celcius IAT after an hour or more of standing still, heatsoaking while waiting after hot 1/4 mile runs, (the worst possible conditions therefore).
The alternative of Armin Klein (horizontal air-air intercoolers inside the engine compartment with fans under both sides) is more subtle though and seems to work very well for him too ;)

[70Turbobug]

I´m not really convinced that an air-air IC is more efficient than a water-air IC.Water combined with antifreeze or alcohol is a better cool medium by itself than air,especially if it is an independant system with its own cooler for the water.I´d like to see a comparison of the two on the same car with identical boost settings and then record the temp difference.The efficiency of an air-air IC is dependant on the surrounding atmospheric temperature more so than a water cooled IC.

[Wally]

I think this is the best pic from 12 november :)

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_OTc6Yfslc6k/TODa5ilhSOI/AAAAAAAArd0/ASnsCxvJecI/IMG_1326.jpg

[70Turbobug]

Ohhh nice pic!! Thanks - another one for my Wally folder! :D Professional,high quality pics as usual!

[Xellex]

haha you have a "Wally" folder too? Thought I was the only one :P

[70Turbobug]

LOL, yeah I´ve been following the developements of this car for quite a few years.It´s been really interesting to see the continuos changes and rise in power along with the setbacks. A real car story and a lot of things to talk about,I really enjoy the updates.Almost feel like a groupie..LOL :D

[Wally]

Thanks guys, this thread here is also my own sort-of blog or diary so you will.

[scourtaud]

Hi,

I've just found this more complete post of yours (compared to the french german look forums) and I must say, I'm sooo impressed by the work done and the way the car looks... The only thing I don't adore on your car is the steering wheel... Otherwise, its just soo balanced and somehow discreet (by looks) for the power output...

Knowing my daily beetle is a convertible, I'm somehow limited in crazyness but I also own a 74 that could very well take a turn for the worst (best?) and become a race bug in the spirit of yours... Thanks for the temptation, I was going to rebuild it to factory specs and sell it... Now I'm not sure...

Good luck for the 450 HP target you must have somewhere in your mind...

Seb

[Wally]

Hi,

I've just found this more complete post of yours (compared to the french german look forums) and I must say, I'm sooo impressed by the work done and the way the car looks... The only thing I don't adore on your car is the steering wheel...

Thanks Sebastian!
The steering wheel is somewhat of a poke to pre-'73 911 owners as its the exact model of a pre-73 911 wheel, but with a Wolfsburg logo in it :D
I had a GSR/late convertible steering wheel before and even that felt slightly better in your hands. So, I might just replace it some day, but not yet as this wheel kinda has grown on me ;)

Glad if I just made you doubt selling your sedan bug. You know its a fun ride and can just go as cray as you want :)

Good luck for the 450 HP target you must have somewhere in your mind...


:D

[Wally]

Started building the twin scroll header out of the exiting one:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/TSheaderbouw001.jpg~original

Unfortunately 1 and 3 (and 2 and 4) are positioned not beside each other but diagonal (sp?) across... so the primaries have to be adapted some more.
Plenty to do before the new turbo is completely connected.

[scourtaud]

Hi,

Is this an illusion from the picture or will this header never fit under the bodywork?

Seb

[Wally]

Hi,

Is this an illusion from the picture or will this header never fit under the bodywork?

Seb

-> Illusion: this header already did fit under there, I just cut it off behind the collector ;)
My 'remodelling' might give a little more room too. Thats very welcome as it is very tight now (G50 gearbox made the engine go back ~3-4 (?) cm) indeed.

Older pic:
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/Kenrun008.jpg~original

[paul_f]

I bet that was quite daunting chopping of the collector - the point of no return!

Could you do me a favour please - measure the ID of the single pipe coming from the collector. I need to order a cone to match my new silencers with that pipe and mine is currently wrapped in exhaust wrap as well as being covered with masking sheets as I am painting the engine lid hinge panel on my bus

Cheers
Paul

[Wally]

I bet that was quite daunting chopping of the collector - the point of no return!


Indeed it was!
I have hesitated many times doing this and contemplating wheather it was possible to rearrange the entire primaries backwards coming together under the flywheel/tranny, but I think there is just too little room if you want to keep the underside of the car level with the T4 sump...


Pipe outer diameter is 42mm, wall is 1,5mm, inner is therefore 39mm and confirmed by measuring, although at the collector itself I measured 40mm ID.

[paul_f]

Indeed it was!
I have hesitated many times doing this and contemplating wheather it was possible to rearrange the entire primaries backwards coming together under the flywheel/tranny, but I think there is just too little room if you want to keep the underside of the car level with the T4 sump...


I agree, I don't think it would be possible to have them going backwards and stay level with the sump.

I'd like to cut and move slightly backwards the pipe that runs near the pulley as it is very close, but I think it will be quite difficult to do nicely without remaking that section.

Thanks for the measurement, though I wanted the one at the other end of the collector. I think it is 54mm OD but I am not certain.

Cheers
Paul

[Wally]

I'd like to cut and move slightly backwards the pipe that runs near the pulley as it is very close, but I think it will be quite difficult to do nicely without remaking that section.

Problem with that part is that it is the 180 degree section that curves right behind the rear apron. If you move it further away from the pulley, it gets close to the apron... You may get away with that, but I have less room as you know ;)

Thanks for the measurement, though I wanted the one at the other end of the collector. I think it is 54mm OD but I am not certain.

Cheers
Paul
Sorry...but you're correct. That part is OD 54mm.

[Wally]

Made some nice progress this weekend:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/Borg-Warnerturbo002-1.jpg

Trial fitting the too big of a turbo.
Looks like it might even sort-of fit :D Be aware that I have a bit more room there as my engine is moved a few cm further backards.
The 4" (!..) air inlet will however collide with the Cup strebe so will need to make s/th for that, for which I already have an idea :)

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/Borg-Warnerturbo001.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/Borg-Warnerturbo003.jpg

[70Turbobug]

Looks good Wally! I see space is now even more limited...
If you don´t need your BAS header,I´ll buy it from you ;) Or did you cut it up to make this one?

[Wally]

Or did you cut it up to make this one?

Yes, I hoped the pictured showed that..:o

[Xellex]

you will be punished by the aircooled gods for cutting up a BAS header like that! I hate you just a little right now :P

[70Turbobug]

Don´t worry,Wally knows what he´s doing...I think...:D Wally, are you going to have a collector before the turbo or will the pipes remain seperate up to the flange?

[Wally]

Don´t worry,Wally knows what he´s doing...I think...:D

I dunno, but surely hope so :D

Wally, are you going to have a collector before the turbo or will the pipes remain seperate up to the flange?

NOooo, with an additional collector before the turbo, I would totally KILL the twin-scroll principle/advantage/idea!!
So, the pipes will remain seperate. I just have to hammer them both into a rectangle at the end :rolleyes:

[70Turbobug]

NOooo, with an additional collector before the turbo, I would totally KILL the twin-scroll principle/advantage/idea!!
So, the pipes will remain seperate. I just have to hammer them both into a rectangle at the end

Not necessarily..depends on the collector size and length.If you don´t use a common collector,then the 2-1 collectors should be the appropriate size,to minimize pulses and backpressure.I´m not saying that is the case with your system,just speaking out generally.I´can´t remember where,but I saw a collector that someone made from a Burns collector,it was a 4-1 system with a 4-1 collector that then divided into 2 rectangular pipes to the twin scroll flange.As far as heat retention and minimizing back pressure,I think that would be pretty effective.

[Wally]

...,it was a 4-1 system with a 4-1 collector that then divided into 2 rectangular pipes to the twin scroll flange. ...

Ah, yes, that would work too, but it does mean you are keeping all 4 primaries seperate untill at the divided turbine flange and only then merge 2 into 1, twice. Its still a twin scroll header then, only you keep 4 primaries all the way untill the turbine, resulting in much longer primary lengths, thus reducing spool time imo.
My turbo location is already rather far away, so I will do anything fysically possible to keep pipe lengths to a minimum, hence this construction/lay-out ;)

[70Turbobug]

Yeah,I hear ya Wally - space is a big problem.I´m hoping my GT3071R will fit in your old location.I won´t find out until I have the engine in the car.Hopefully my case will finally be back on friday so I can put it together.I will be putting the car together this winter -finally.

[TSAF]

Winter time is the best for car projects!

[70Turbobug]

Yeah,finding time and motivation can be tough.Thanks to threads like this it keeps the fire going.So if my car never gets finished it´s Wally´s fault for not posting enough videos and pics :lmao:

[TSAF]

Wally we need more videos, pictures, everything you have to keep us going!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wally]

Haha! well, not spectaculair news, but some small steps are sometimes needed as well to complete a job.
So, I now finally have the oil feed for the Borg turbo complete :)
This was quite a hassle. Why? see for yourself:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/Borg-Warnerturbo001-1.jpg~original

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/Borg-Warnerturbo002.jpg~original

Left to right: 1/4" NPT is the thread size into the turbo, so I needed a 1/4" NPT to 1/8"NPT adapter, 1/8"NPT male to 1/8"NPT with 0.165" restrictor (1.5mm), 1/8"NPT to inverted flare female connection and M10x1.0 inner thread, M10x1.0 male and inverted flare 'copper' 5mm (~3/16") brake line.
This connects then to a goodyear braided oil line (with M10x1.0 ends) that feeds of the oil pressure connection on the engine case (with a 'T' for a oil pressure sensor)

Next job will be the oil drainage adapter, which will have to be made from scratch (from hi-grade alu) for my -12 line... (all adapters for sale are -10...)

[70Turbobug]

Why the 1.5mm restrictor?

[vdubzack]

haha you have a "Wally" folder too? Thought I was the only one :PFolder! This is almost like a masters class.

[Wally]

Why the 1.5mm restrictor?
1.5mm or AN3 line feed.
Its prescription from Airwerks Borg-Warner. Same as large frame Garrett non-ball bearing turbo's ;)

[70Turbobug]

Learn something new everyday! So this one isn´t ball bearing either?

[Wally]

Learn something new everyday! So this one isn´t ball bearing either?

Nope, no ball-bearing. Would have loved to have that in there as well though, but these models just don't come with them.
The twin-scroll should provide the quicker spooling. When tuned right (header sizes), these spool as 'fast' as a Garrett 35R does with a little more hp under the curve, but for less then 2/3 the Garrett BB price tag ;)

[70Turbobug]

If you have the same spooling time as with the old turbo but more power and ability to keep the boost level in the high rpm aswell, then it was worth it imo.The BB turbos are nice,but like you said so much more expensive.You would have to ask yourself if the advantages of the BB outweigh the price tag.

[Wally]

If you have the same spooling time as with the old turbo but more power and ability to keep the boost level in the high rpm aswell, then it was worth it imo.

This turbo is NOT a logical 'upgrade' for this engine!
I am sure spool is much later now, as this is a TOO large of a turbo for this engine/application. A comparable BB turbo of this size would also have later spool, but like I said before: this turbo was NOT ment for this engine, but a much larger one ;)
Still I am very curieus what this will do on this 2.2 engine as I have so much data on this engine already.

Only if you look at a drag racing application, this turbo could do well if the cam could support the flow/rpm. For pure drag racing, the cam is not optimal either though..

As always, its a big compromise as it is.
It is tempting to completely disassemble the engine and do a cam swap, just to give it drag racing caracteristics and really let it rip at the strip :rolleyes:
Not for now anyways, I have a hard time thinking how to install this turbo as it is ;)

[effvee]

:(This turbo is NOT a logical 'upgrade' for this engine!
I am sure spool is much later now, as this is a TOO large of a turbo for this engine/application. A comparable BB turbo of this size would also have later spool, but like I said before: this turbo was NOT ment for this engine, but a much larger one ;)
Still I am very curieus what this will do on this 2.2 engine as I have so much data on this engine already.

Only if you look at a drag racing application, this turbo could do well if the cam could support the flow/rpm. For pure drag racing, the cam is not optimal either though..

As always, its a big compromise as it is.
It is tempting to completely disassemble the engine and do a cam swap, just to give it drag racing caracteristics and really let it rip at the strip :rolleyes:
Not for now anyways, I have a hard time thinking how to install this turbo as it is ;)


Hi Walter, I have noted your up-grades and congrats. Question, when is enough on your current engine, before you have a major failure? You have done very well, I'd hate to see you engine let loose:(.

[70Turbobug]

So Walter, if I am reading between the lines correctly...you´re planning on a larger engine?

[Wally]

:(


Hi Walter, I have noted your up-grades and congrats. Question, when is enough on your current engine, before you have a major failure? You have done very well, I'd hate to see you engine let loose:(.

I hear you! But that is also the nature of me: I'd like to improve untill I think there is no gain to be had. And imo there are still loads of thinks to improve upon and the type 4 case is much stronger than 400 hp. Swedish lunatics (and I mean this in a kind way :D) have gone 600+ on the type 4 casing with a drag-race-only engine, so I think there are possibilties to extend that to track-driving with a little less hp, but for longer duration ;)

The car itself is still very drivable too. Its not scary when you step on it, so also because the handling can handle it, I think more power is possible.
If I can keep it 'in tune' (and I am getting rather well at this, even if I say so myself), there is no reason it should break with more hp, although I am getting more and more surprised the alu cylinders keep up :)

Another thing to consider: this (much) bigger turbo is more gentle on the engine at comparable boost then the smaller turbo was due to lesser backpressure...
So more power at less stress for the engine! How can you pass up on that? :D

[Wally]

So Walter, if I am reading between the lines correctly...you´re planning on a larger engine?

Of course! But that will take a while as its a lot of $$. The stroker crank however has already been 'heat treated', a forged (stock 914) flywheel seems to be able to be used for 228mm enlargement and a set of 'virgin' 914 2.0 heads is in storage for some time already to get the 'treatment' once funds are available :D
After all, the current engine was only made from left overs of the 2,7 carnage and therefore not 'all i can be'...

[70Turbobug]

Sounds good! I think the heads you have now will do just fine.Or are planning with bigger valves and welded ports,etc.? You could sell your current engine,that would give you enough money for the next build.I´m sure you would find a buyer for it.

[Wally]

;)Sounds good! I think the heads you have now will do just fine.Or are planning with bigger valves and welded ports,etc.? You could sell your current engine,that would give you enough money for the next build.I´m sure you would find a buyer for it.

I agree: the current heads flow well, even with just 0,500" valve lift. The 'new' set would be about the same, but with a tiny bit more porting, maybe Be-seats and upgraded valve train package. They would have a little more beef left in the heads as I would start with virgin heads and like a bit more CR, so they would get a little better in all aspects. Then a cam with more lift and you have more potential. At least thats my thinking.

I don't think I want to sell the current engine as I can use lots of its parts from it and I am VERY curieus how its looks on the inside. Only if I can see what it looks like will I be able to judge how well certain solutions have worked out.
But thats all in the far future due to $$ needed ;)

[70Turbobug]

I wanted more "beef" on the exhaust ports,since that is a weakspot imo.That´s why I chose the CU heads.They have a thick chamber and enough room for big valves.The square ports allow a better seal at the header.I´m also curious what your motor looks like inside,mainly the cam and lifters.The crank and rods will be fine I´m sure and should show little wear.I´m anxiuos to see what size engine you will build.

[effvee]

;)

Then a cam with more lift and you have more potential. At least thats my thinking.




Walter, in regards to more cam, how about a set of Pauter ratio rockers in the mean time. I believe that would allow a sort of more cam/results for a short investment. And later you can still use the ratio rocker in your next build?

[Wally]

I´m also curious what your motor looks like inside,mainly the cam and lifters.

I have DLC'd the tool steel lifters from Thorsten, so the lifters are the least of my worries ;)
Personally I would like to see how the pistons are wrt skirts in relation to the clearance they had and of course the head seal ;)

[Wally]

Walter, in regards to more cam, how about a set of Pauter ratio rockers in the mean time.

That would give too much lift with this cam... its a fine balance ;)

[1302 S]

Hello Wally
I like your combination of short stroke and large bore in your engine. And it seems to be very realibly, you have realy succeeded.
I have read your thread but I cant find what valve size you use in your heads? I could have missed something....

// Anders

[Wally]

Hello Wally
I like your combination of short stroke and large bore in your engine. And it seems to be very realibly, you have realy succeeded.
I have read your thread but I cant find what valve size you use in your heads? I could have missed something....

// Anders

Its 46x40mm ;)

[Wally]

Slowly but surely the new parts for the new intake and exhaust side are coming together:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/Borg-Warnerturbo003-1.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/Borg-Warnerturbo004.jpg

Changing the springs to CB650:
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/Borg-Warnerturbo005.jpg

The double Berg springs had 3 saisons on them and were VERY much down on spring pressure, so this was/is a good thing to do either way.

[paul_f]

Nice one Wally! Did you put rope inside the cylinder to hold the valve or did you use air pressure?

Great idea with the jubilee clips, that would made it much easier for me if I had thought of that!

[Wally]

I used air pressure Paul. Killed an old compression measuring device for that a few years ago :o

[Wally]

The Berg double springs were about 35% down on spring pressure :eek:

Check your springs after about 2 years of driving I'd say...

Anyways, back tp building the twin scroll header:
Trial fitting:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/TSheaderbouw017.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/TSheaderbouw022.jpg

[Frix]

Impressive, as always! How will you route the oil return line, with the turbo that low?

[Wally]

Welcome to the board Frix!

Oil return will run as it was before with the former turbo as its about as high or low as the other one was ;)

[Sandeep]

Looks great Walter !

Well thought out, and looks like the turbo was meant to fit there.
:cool:

Did you end up revising the down strut / cup brace ?

Sandeep

[Wally]

Looks great Walter !

Did you end up revising the down strut / cup brace ?

Sandeep

Thanks; well, I have removed it for now as it didn't fit at all anymore with the air intake in the way. I have not come up with another alternative then brace it through the firewall onto a cage support point in the rear...
Oh well, first have to finanlize the install completely with WG before I do anything drastic.

I also wanted to redo the piece of 2" pipe just after the intercooler (2,5" exit) and the T-split. The individual 2" pieces to the pressure hats can easily remain 2" imo, but making the intermediate bend from 2,5" just seems more logical:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/Dec2010010.jpg~original

[Steve Arndt]

Wally,
Check this divided housing fabrication.
http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2880250

[Wally]

Wally,
Check this divided housing fabrication.
http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2880250

Wicked nice welding for sure! Subies/Evo's and Honda's use the twin-scroll set-up a lot.
You're reading ricer forums now? :lmao:
j/k its a good thing to broadthen (sp?) our minds and apply new (although usually very old) tech to our engines/cars ;-)

[KAFUR1]

Looks to be smooth at 137. I might just have to cut one out for my car.

You too!

[70Turbobug]

Wicked nice welding for sure! Subies/Evo's and Honda's use the twin-scroll set-up a lot.
You're reading ricer forums now?

...always know what you´re enemy is doing...:D

[MX67]

...always know what you´re enemy is doing...:D

I agree! :D

Walter, what's with Your 1200 turbo engine and will you have thread here on GL forums about build? That downsizing stuff is very popular now :cheers:

[Wally]

Walter, what's with Your 1200 turbo engine and will you have thread here on GL forums about build? That downsizing stuff is very popular now :cheers:

I dunno if that would be a good idea, its not really in the spirit of max performance, though I am very exited about the project it myself tbh ;). Its slow progress too as it all costs still a lot, even if its type 1.

Meanwhile, some progress on installing/trial fitting the Tial wastegate, trying to outsmart the system by just using one WG by dividing the uppipe ;)
Divided pipe is now visible, of course needs to be shortenend and connected to both up pipes to turbine.
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/Tialinstallatie006.jpg~original

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/Tialinstallatie011.jpg~original

New wider pipe to the intercooler fits well too now, almost straight shot from the turbo :)
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/Tialinstallatie005.jpg~original

[70Turbobug]

Looks like it´s getting tight in there now :shocked: I suppose there´s no way of locating the WG further upstream?

[Wally]

Looks like it´s getting tight in there now :shocked: I suppose there´s no way of locating the WG further upstream?

Just for the WG there would be room upstream just under the rear valence right after the 4-2 sections, but I saw no routing of the neccesary slicencer anymore then.

[NO_H2O]

Getting close. I look forward to some new videos.

[Wally]

Yeah, coming saturday I hope to get the oil return outlet for the turbo and have the flange machined flat again as it has warped a bit after my welding...
Still the main downpipe silencer is not here yet and that needs lots of modifying too. Lots of work still.

[Wally]

Flange machined flat again after it warped after welding and the neat oil return flange:
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/TSheaderbouw009.jpg~original

[MX67]

Speaking of oil feed tube...

Wally, sorry if you've put that info somewhere, but which oil do you use in your engine?

I'm asking because there's much debate going on about zinc levels in modern oils. I'm reading some ricer forums and they're speaking about Brad Penn grade 1 20w50 as the best choice. Jake Raby also prefers that oil. Maybe we should make "oil thread" on GL...
:)

[Wally]

Speaking of oil feed tube...

Wally, sorry if you've put that info somewhere, but which oil do you use in your engine?

I'm asking because there's much debate going on about zinc levels in modern oils. I'm reading some ricer forums and they're speaking about Brad Penn grade 1 20w50 as the best choice. Jake Raby also prefers that oil. Maybe we should make "oil thread" on GL...
:)

I fully agree on the Brad Penn 20W50 as I also run the GT1 'racing green' in the engine. Its still called Kendall here though ;)

But please not another oil thread... enough of those already.

[Sandeep]

Hi Walter,

I noticed a fitting on your sump extension ... I know which DS pump you are running :cool: so am guessing that this is the return for your turbo ? If not, what is it for ? Are you still using the Tilton scavenging pump ?

I'm trying to eliminate as many support systems as I can in my build right now, and this looks like a great solution for the turbo drain ... considering the 38mm scavenge circuit in the DS pump.

Unfortunately, I also have to upgrade the DS pump feed from a -8AN (12.7mm ID) to either a -10 (.625" / ~15.9mm ID) or even a -12 (.69" / ~ 17.5mm ID). More fittings .... more hose :mad:

Sandeep

[Wally]

and this looks like a great solution for the turbo drain ...


Of course :D

Its a -12 hose I use, same as I use for DS pump feed from the front trunk. Better safe then sorry. I bought the Tilton, but have still never even used it...
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/Borg-Warnerturbo002-2.jpg~original

Just today I did some work making the wastegate feed tubes from both pipes and still keeping them separate. Hope to have some updates at the weekend.

[Wally]

Very happy with the progress from today.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/TSheaderbouw010.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/TSheaderbouw003.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/TSheaderbouw005.jpg

Only downpipe + silencer to sort, but the silencer from ebay still needs to arrive...

[Xellex]

excuse me if I got it wrong, but is the waste-gate gonna have it's own silencer to the left, and the main silencer is going in the old position? Couldnt the WG dump in the same exhaust pipe?

[Wally]

excuse me if I got it wrong, but is the waste-gate gonna have it's own silencer to the left, and the main silencer is going in the old position?

Yep, each its own silencer.

Couldnt the WG dump in the same exhaust pipe?

Yes, could, but (most important in my case) that would probably be too loud as the exhaust silencer will be 3,5" and the wastegate doesn't have the turbo as a "pre-silencer". Most tracks get really difficult with noise levels...
Its also better to keep it seperate for the least possible backpressure in the downpipe.
Lastly, there was probaby going to be possible ground clearence problems routing it back into the downpipe exhaust.

[Wally]

First start up after too long a time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wk-2XcIbx0

[Bad bug]

Oh! hell the beast is back. More vids wally. Ah! just a question, how much horsepower do you intend to make this time?

[70Turbobug]

Nice job Wally! I´m anxiuos to see what it does on the track and dyno! :D

[wrenchnride247]

Very nice Wally!

[judgie]

:D looking/sounding good

[NO_H2O]

Good to se that she has a pulse once again. Nice work.

[Wally]

Tnx guys! Just a new lambda bung and the big turbo silencer and I can drive again :)

Ah! just a question, how much horsepower do you intend to make this time?
No intentions really. I hope the same or a little more at less boost. No telling really. I am more interested in how much further boost threshold will be. Or my own benchmark: at what rpm 15 psi will be reached. All logic says about 1000 rpm further on. Anything less will be a bonus and/or to be adressed to the TS :rolleyes:

Interesting will also be how the heavier CB 650 valvesprings will go along with my stock 'non-straight-cut' cam gear and stock single thrust cam bearing...

[Steve Arndt]

Do you have a spring scale? I am interested in your old and new spring data. (install height, poundage)

[Wally]

Do you have a spring scale? I am interested in your old and new spring data. (install height, poundage)

No, not a professional one. I use a digital scale and measure in the exact same way as much as possible with the different springs I've used new and after usage. I usually measure at installed height (type 4) and 10mm compression after installed height.
As its my own method, it doesn't have reference to published data with anyone else. That doesn't bother me, as its for my own personal use only. I am not a shop, nor do I sell anything commercially, hence my testing is just for my own interest ;)

A real spring scale would be nice though, just hard to justify the investment with so little use...

[Steve Arndt]

Can you give a qualitative comparison of the old and new springs? Are they much stiffer?

Do you have your installed height number handy? I am curious and would like to compare it to my heads.

Steve

[Wally]

Can you give a qualitative comparison of the old and new springs? Are they much stiffer?

Do you have your installed height number handy? I am curious and would like to compare it to my heads.

Steve

Sure, you asked for it though ;):
actually I also had a set of the old CB regular HD springs and they were about the same pressure at 10mm compression! (actually a tiny bit less, but that may have been accuracy or a batch or..):
10mm compression: 120kg from the CB650 outer spring
10mm compression: 130kg from the old (cheap) CB HD single(=outer) spring.
This made little sense, so I put the inner spring in also and got these results:

I use an installed type4 height of about 1,50-1,52" or ~38-38.6mm, which is a bit less even then T1 IIRC.

At installed T4 height I got 88kg ('seat pressure') with the dual CB650 springs.
10mm compress.: 177kg (which was not that much more comparively)
As I thought they might only start shining with higher lift cams, I got past my own '10mm reference' and measured also at larger compressions:
12mm compress.: 217kg (!)
15,2mm compr.: 228kg
which were somewhat the pressures CB advertises with, so I was happy after all :)

So the 'over the nose' pressure is fine with cams of about 0.500" lift which most of us use.
So much for my 10mm reference :lmao:

Oh, BTW, the Gene Berg double springs that came off the engine after 2,5 season had a pressure of:
Installed height (T4): 61 kg
10mm compress. : 115kg (!!)

Now, I hadn't measured the GB's when new, but they are probably in the same range new as the CB's or Scat's. That means a HUGE reduction in spring pressure after my relative short milage and relatively mild cam (just 0.500" lift). This is about 35-40% loss after 2,5 season!!! :eek:

My Scat springs I had a few years ago measured 95-100 kg installed height and 145-150kg at 10mm compression when new, so they were even less then the CB's when new and showed 25% loss of pressure after 1 season !!

This led me to my conclusion: valve springs are wear items and most all are near junk to begin with!... Actually to be renewed after every season is the only thing to do. But what could you expect from 30-35 dollar spring sets...
I hope these CB650 (which are about 3 times as costly as the other springs mentioned, but still not really 'expensive') hold their pressure better.
Only one way to find out I guess...

[Bad bug]

Interesting will also be how the heavier CB 650 valvesprings will go along with my stock 'non-straight-cut' cam gear and stock single thrust cam bearing...


Well i hope these springs don't cause you any grief. Wally about your shroud, is there any possibility of getting anymore.

[Humble]

That's an interesting exercise and not something I'd considered. I'd be interested in seeing how the K-motion LS1 springs I've got hold up after a season of abuse. Thanks for the heads up!

[70Turbobug]

Indeed interesting info! I wouldn´t have thought that the loss in pressure would be so dramatic! One possible explanation would be that the advertised spring pressure exceeds the the tensile modulus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-modulus) of the material used.To put it simple the spring pressure is calculated in such that the steel returns to its original strength after "stretching" without loss of tension.This value is the same no matter what steel is used,whether its a cheap steel or a high tensile alloy just as the expansion rate is the same if they are of the same diameter.The diameter of the steel is the key and base for calculation - not the alloy!! If the force applied exceeds that value (calculated in mm²),the material will wear quickly.Hence,the advertised spring value is higher than what actually should have been calculated.

[Bad bug]

Have any of you thought about using oteva 75 springs from Sweden. I don't know about the price but from what i hear they are good.

[Wally]

Have any of you thought about using oteva 75 springs from Sweden. I don't know about the price but from what i hear they are good.

Yes, I looked and i believe they are probably very good also and could be much set-up like the CB's, however they are also 3,5 times the cost of the CB's (which makes them 10 times as expensive as a 'normal' spring set...).
I'll try these first ;)

Got the 3,5" bore Borla XR1 silencer in today! :)

[Wally]

All parts in da house and making it all fit went well (I'am getting almost a routine in this :lmao:):

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/Borg-Warnerturbo008.jpg

Went for a first test drive today :D:D:D
Needed to set-up the EBC again and by accident selected the wrong button...which led the boost rise to 30 psi :eek: before I backed off...
Fortunately all corrections and setting were entered up to 2 bar boost and the engine suffered no harm apparently. I did get launched pretty well though :D
Spool-up is indeed a lot slower as expected: I measured about +800rpm in the log before 15 psi was reached. I also must confess I checked the headers I welded and saw about 4 or 5 small leaks...:o so maybe spool will improve some when I have solved the leaks. Initial boost threshold seems a lot less slow and impressions are only about +500rpm for boost threshold.
I would have expected about +1000 rpm considering the size of the new turbo and all the extra volume in piping, so I am actually still vary happy already with spool as it is :)

Outside temp today was very cold: around freezing point: 0 Celcius. Intake air temperature was only 4 Celcius under boost. Air-air intercooler FTW :D

The most important benefit I saw from this turbo is that EGT was much lower throughout the whole rpm range, even when cruising! I had a lot to keep an eye on today, but if I had to make a guesstimate, 50 Celcius lower at least, maybe even 70-80 Celcius, but will have to investigate that when I have driven more.

I also have anothe HKS (SSQV) BOV installed and that seems to work well too. Seems to keep the flow more constant after it opens, but hard to tell exactly what/how it works different. We'll see.

Made a little vid in the hope to capture the Borg whistle, but I don't think I can hear it destinctly enough from the inside.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4iuImkFo0I

[Humble]

I love my borla xr1 it really toned down the exhaust quite a bit. How much rpm are you spinning by the time you hit 1 bar boost now? I know it added a bit more lag but is it tolerable?

I went with hks ssqv bov because a friend was using it in his car. I've found that I can keep about 10psi in the intake between shifts which really helps to kill turbo lag when rowing through the gears. I don't like the whistle though, and just put the recirculation fitting on it instead.

[Wally]

I love my borla xr1 it really toned down the exhaust quite a bit. How much rpm are you spinning by the time you hit 1 bar boost now? I know it added a bit more lag but is it tolerable?



Surprisingly, it is very drivable still even lag is a lot more, but I still have about 5 leaks to fix with welding header connections...
1 bar was at ~ 3600 rpm in 4th, now its ~4400. Hope fixing the header boostleaks will help a bit to bring that down some.

[Wally]

Fixed some header leaks, so I now get 1 bar at 4250 rpm :)

Also got all springs back in the Tial so it opens at 1 bar when not controlled. Also retuned the maps a bit and went for a test drive again. Man, what a rush! At 1,2 bar I got actually a little scared and didn't proceed with the other higher boost settings I had planned today...

Picture from the new exhaust openings :)
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/1303/1303metexternalgate004.jpg~original

[Bad bug]

Good job wally, i guess we can say that twin scroll turbos work, but just a little question here how did you group the exhaust pipes is it 1 and 3 4 and 2.

[Wally]

Yes, pairing 1/3 and 2/4 together is very important and ideally they should be equal length as well as this will give equal spaced exhaust pulses which helps spool. in TS configuraion.

[Sandeep]

Looks awesome Walter !

Might be the picture, but looks like paint on the apron is discoloring a bit, might be touching the header in this area ?

Fantastic build overall.

Sandeep

[Wally]

Good eye! It used to touch over a year ago, not not anymore. Damage was done and I don't mind too much tbh. There's also a little dent there from someone that ran into me in a traffic jam 2 years ago...

[effvee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4iuImkFo0I[/QUOTE]

Hay Walter, man nice work:eek:. Question, that G50 has tall gearing, in your video was that 4th to 5th gear? It looked and sounded like you could have continued to accelorate even more. Again damn nice results, congrats.

[Wally]

4th gear and yes, that was a little over 6K, but it goes on to 7K and wants to go further then... Very curieus untill how far it continues to make power on the dyno.

[70Turbobug]

Congrats Wally! Looks and sounds great!

[judgie]

looking good. be intresting to see the dyno results on this set up compered to the old one. are you going for more boost or was the swap to the bigger turbo to control the boost better?

[Wally]

looking good. be intresting to see the dyno results on this set up compered to the old one.

Are you going for more boost or was the swap to the bigger turbo to control the boost better?

Neither actually: this huge turbo was intended for fitting together with an engine upgrade to more cc's. Then a big turbo like this would make more sense. The bigger cc u[pgrade didn't happen however, hence I thought trying it on the current engine I have so much data already from.

The other idea was to decrease exhaust gas back pressure by using an even bigger (compared to the already bigger compressor) turbine wheel.
So, the turbine wheel now is double big so to speak... hence the to be expected huge lag. I think partly due to the twin-scroll set-up, lag is not as terrible as it would have been otherwise.

OTOH, less back pressure will make higher boost settings possible. For example: 20 psi gave me 30psi back pressure(!). You can fill out what this means if you have a (assuming) 1:1 ratio...
Question is will the engine internals withstand the mechanical forces (++torque) of more boost or even same boost but with more power because of the better VE I think I have now?

I tried tuning it on the road, but frankfully, its too tricky on a public road at the boost settings above 15 psi. Tuning is not complete therefore, but close enough :lmao:
-only one way to find out: drag it to the dyno :D

[Wally]

Dyno has been booked for coming saturday...

[Steve Arndt]

It will keep on making power until the valve springs float. :)

[Sandeep]

Fantastic !

Based on your last "seat of the pants" comment, I'm guessing you'll be dynoing to 15 psi then ?

Are you still using the ID1000's ?

Looking forward to the results and the conclusion of your exhaust back pressure / turbine size testing.

Sandeep

[Wally]

Fantastic !

Based on your last "seat of the pants" comment, I'm guessing you'll be dynoing to 15 psi then ?

Nah, what fun would that be? There is now a 15 psi waste-gate spring in it, so 15 psi will be the lowest boost pressure setting. Waste-gate spring is setting 1 on the EBC. There are 5 settings after that :D
If the engine will hold (knock on wood), I want to at least test 22 psi (1,5 bar) as well. It looks like this combo holds boost pretty constant across the rpm range.

Are you still using the ID1000's ?

Yep, they might be on the small side by now, we'll just have to see...

[Wally]

Unfortunately, no such luck today: injectors were at 100% IDC already at 1,3 bar boost and ~6500 rpm...
But 398 hp and climbing at 1.3 bar but running at lambda 1.0 and 1.1 at that power level... that probably did the engine no good, but no problems leaving the dyno...but I still did strand on the way back home. Seemed like electrical problems or fuel delivery problems or ?
Not sure what it is yet though...

This was the first run at 15 psi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TOIdkF6mbg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/1303/DynotestenmetenbijHR-Boxertje004.jpg

[Bad bug]

You made almost 400 whp at 19lbs of boost. You were also lean, need to increase fuel at that level.

[70Turbobug]

IDC at 100% ? Injectors too small also? I figured 1000cc would be enough running pump gas at that horsepower level.Perhaps not enough fuel pressure for the amount of fuel volume needed? In other words rail pressure is dropping because the pump can´t keep up with the boost/fuel ratio and maintain the desired pressure and the injectors try to compensate with longer opening intervals? It´s just a guess - I´m not sure if that makes sense but I can´t imagine that the injectors are too small at that level?

Maybe it´s none of the above and you don´t have enough electrical power/current to support the pump? What I don´t understand is,you´ve had a higher boostsetting,ran richer(?) and HP before the turbo change.So how is it possible that it suddenly collapses?

[Wally]

I have found the cause: my feed pump wasn't running well and I got stranded because it didn't run at that moment at all anymore!
Logical that when you have no fuel anymore, the engine dies out...duh!

I had a spare 944 pump I switched over and it started cold immediately again :mrgreen:
Pffft!
I left the fuel pressure to 60 psi, so according to the flow sheet that should give me 1180 cc, which should be enough anyways. Just need to re-map the fuel map but thats no biggie.

Very glad it was something this simple, but scary as it could have ended far worse. Amazingly and fortunately the engine held...

[70Turbobug]

That's good to hear it was something simple and no damage caused!

[al_kaholik]

Unfortunately, no such luck today: But 398 hp and climbing at 1.3 bar

Good Effort :D Do you have any dyno or track/ 1/4mile times from before you did anything? Would love to see the complete difference in performance from a stocker.

[scourtaud]

I have found the cause: my feed pump wasn't running well and I got stranded because it didn't run at that moment at all anymore!
Logical that when you have no fuel anymore, the engine dies out...duh!

I had a spare 944 pump I switched over and it started cold immediately again :mrgreen:
Pffft!
I left the fuel pressure to 60 psi, so according to the flow sheet that should give me 1180 cc, which should be enough anyways. Just need to re-map the fuel map but thats no biggie.

Very glad it was something this simple, but scary as it could have ended far worse. Amazingly and fortunately the engine held...

Hi,

I'm far from your level of power but running an EFI also and I recently had fuel delivery issues... It had nothing to do with the pump but by testing, I was amazed at how long the engine keeps running with the pump unplugged...
I've therefore decided to play it safe, always have a second pump in place, in case the first one lets go far from home...

Hope yours holds from now on...

And if I may add, you're car and its engine and quite amazing... and every time I recieve the "Post update", I just can't help thinking : What if I added even a small turbo to my 2007...

Sebastien

[Wally]

... What if I added even a small turbo to my 2007...

Sebastien

Thanks Seb, but ^^thats what the tricky side of it is: people think adding a 'small turbo' gives only a little more hp, so its probably not so hard on the engine...
However, thats where you would go wrong! The smaller the turbo, the larger the exhaust restriction, the higher the Back Pressure in the exhaust, the higher your exhaust gas temperatures, the sooner you have knock and temperature related exhaust valve and valve seat problems.

IF your adding a turbo, use a large one with respect to your engine size and more specifically: also one with a relatively large turbine wheel compared to the compressor wheel.
Thats what I love about the Borg-Warners: their compressor-turbine wheel ratio is larger towards the turbine side compared to Garrett turbo's, which lowers back-pressure and increases efficiency.

[MX67]

I guess You have expectations from your engine. How much power You think it can handle and where's the limit?

[Sandeep]

When I first read that the injectors were at 100%, 1.3 bar, 398hp I was thinking something was not right.

Glad to hear it was a minor problem and the engine was not damaged from the feeder fuel pump failure.

Sandeep

[Wally]

Yeah, it didn't quite add up to me either tbh, but if you see 100% IDC in the datalog, my first reaction was: injector too small.
I actually learn something everytime I visit the dyno ;)

I guess You have expectations from your engine. How much power You think it can handle and where's the limit?


1,21 GigaWatts :D (you have to be a little bit old(er) to get that one I'am afraid...)

[70Turbobug]

Just make sure your flux compensator is in tact lol

[MX67]

1,21 GigaWatts :D (you have to be a little bit old(er) to get that one I'am afraid...)

:bricks:

[Wally]

Haha! :lmao:

I really dunno MX67 where the limit of what component truly is.
You have to understand that this set-up was really meant just to be similar or slightly better then the 220hp n/a 2,7 ltr engine its partly damaged parts came from. That 220 goal was very easily reached and now we're approaching almost double that! :eek: So the turbocharging concept has really surprised me and quickly made me realise how much potential it has. I always thought a type 4 would be very suitable for a turbo due to the inherent strength and better cooling possibilities, but now I am at a point where I really don't seem to know anymore where it stops.
That alone is very exiting and makes me very enthousiastic to explore whats ultimately possible.
It also means I really really have no idea where the limit is. The turbo has a theoretical hp potential at about 700-720 if it was used on an Evo at 30-35 psi. At least thats my guesstimate with what it flows. So there's no limit there. All inlet and exhaust restrictions on my engine are non-exitent anymore with the latest updates. So, the only restriction imo at the moment is the cam with its relatively low lift and duration.
Still, if you see how power still seems to want to climb past 7K, it isn't that bad . The 114LC makes it a wide powerband and you see and feel that.
If you see that 0.3 bar more boost made 50 additional hp, maybe more (60?) if fuel had kept flowing, then 1.6 bar could bring ~450-460 hp... Not clear what will break first if anything, or when the mild cam will hinder flow to choke point.
The potential is surely there, thats also what makes it so exiting imo.

You're old too Mark! :lmao:

[MX67]

Officially satisfied with the answer. :D

You must know that answers like this make rest of us going on and being more entusiastic, that's why I/we maybe sometimes bore You with questions...

I've never seen so impressive AC engine and I'm going Type 4 because of your Bug. Beer's on me when I see You somewhere arround :cheers:







and hoping for a taxi ride :D

[Sandeep]

Just make sure your flux compensator is in tact lol

LOL !

Its actually the Flux Capacitor, for the record :D Great series BTW.

Sandeep

[Steve C]

Hi Wally

What type of pump were you using as a feed pump? By feed pump is that the lift pump to the swirl pot?

Steve

[Wally]

Just a regular Bosch pump from a 3ltr or 3,2ltr 911.
Yes, its used as a lift pump to feed the 'swirl pot' or 'catch can' or whatever people call it, so I can still take corners after the tank is half empty.
The fact that its a pressure pump is not the reason it failed imo if thats what your thinking: it made gurgling noises when I used it as a pressure pump before already, but it always had done that. Since it never skipped a beat, I paid no attention to it, but that probably was a sign after all.

[70Turbobug]

Do you have the feed pump inline with the rest i.e tank-> feed pump -> catchcan -> Bosch pump , or does it have a seperate line from the tank into the catch can? The reason I´m asking is,I´ve seen a race car where the catch can had 2 inlets: one from the tank and one from the feed pump and it confused me why he did that..

[Xellex]

are you sure that inlet from the tank wasn't in fact a return -outlet- back to the tank from the catch can?

[Wally]

No seperate and/or additional gravity feeding if thats what you mean.
Return line from regulator still goes back directly into the fuel tank close to wwhere the feed pump picks up the fuel from the tank.
Upper connection on catch can goes back to tank as overflow and also acts as a breather.
Pics of the set-up are on page 33: http://www.germanlook.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9953&page=33

The idea of mine is/was that a zero-pressure feed pump (which is now the 944 pump) always supplies more fuel then the high pressure pump will be able to flow at 45 or 60 psi.

[Steve C]

Hi Wally

The reason that I asked what sort of pump you were using to feed the surge tank / swirl pot is that myself and a friend both had noise and heat issues when using EFI type pumps to fill the surge tank / swirl pot.

My friends pump actually failed. We put it down to cavitation in the pump as it was not restricted with a pressure regulator etc as it would usually be in a EFI set up.

We are both using Carter lift pumps now.

Obviously your car has travelled many kilometres using a pump this way, but it maybe something to consider.

Steve

[Wally]

Thanks for the info Steve! I would feel better having a dedicated large-volume, low-psi feed pump for this tbh.
I never could find anything for this.
Hmm, worth looking into Carter pumps (never heard of them before).

[70Turbobug]

are you sure that inlet from the tank wasn't in fact a return -outlet- back to the tank from the catch can?

That could be I didn't see where the lines went to

[Wally]

are you sure that inlet from the tank wasn't in fact a return -outlet- back to the tank from the catch can?

Why/how could that be the problem if the electric pump clearly was broke and it restarted fine with a new pump?
The lines run as intended btw ;)

[Steve Arndt]

More header pics at the import site. They are WRX this time so a bit more relevent. Divided housing, but incorrect cylinder pairing

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2599745&page=18

[Wally]

More header pics at the import site. They are WRX this time so a bit more relevent. Divided housing, but incorrect cylinder pairing

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2599745&page=18

Why would you say incorrect cylinder pairing? Opposing cylinders are paired, which is correct, also on a subaru.
He just did not kept the single wastegate divided, which he should and that is indeed a BIG mistake. Might as well kept it simple and 4 int 1 then.

[Xellex]

Why/how could that be the problem if the electric pump clearly was broke and it restarted fine with a new pump?
The lines run as intended btw ;)

Hehe, there's been a misunderstanding, I was reffering to 70Turbobug's post about seeing a race car with 2 separate inlets from the tank to the catch can, and it has nothing to do with your electrical pump problem :P

[Wally]

Ah, mystery solved ;-)

[Steve Arndt]

Right you are. I was viewing on a small netbook screen.

[Eatoniashoprat]

Thanks for the info Steve! I would feel better having a dedicated large-volume, low-psi feed pump for this tbh.
I never could find anything for this.
Hmm, worth looking into Carter pumps (never heard of them before).

Wally,

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRT-P4600HP/

This is the one I have been using to feed my surge tank. It seems to work well and haven't had any issues yet. I had some noise from it but it was caused but not mounting it properly and the body of the pump was touching some steel, giving off some vibration.

I also have a small bleed line of 3/16" coming from my surge tank and tees into the return line. This ensures that I do not build up pressure in the surge tank.

Mike

[Wally]

Wally,

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRT-P4600HP/

This is the one I have been using to feed my surge tank. It seems to work well and haven't had any issues yet. I had some noise from it but it was caused but not mounting it properly and the body of the pump was touching some steel, giving off some vibration.

I also have a small bleed line of 3/16" coming from my surge tank and tees into the return line. This ensures that I do not build up pressure in the surge tank.

Mike

I searched and noticed that one too. It flows 100 gallons per hour, which is 450 ltr/h (?) which is quite a lot: a 044 pumps 300 ltr/h at 3 bar fuel press. and 250 at 4 bar I believe. That means a lot of by-pass. I think the other Carter pumps with 72 gallon/h rate (325 ltr/h?) would still provide more then the 044, but not have as much by-pass.
Too much pump in general would not be a problem however :)

Tnx.

[Eatoniashoprat]

I searched and noticed that one too. It flows 100 gallons per hour, which is 450 ltr/h (?) which is quite a lot: a 044 pumps 300 ltr/h at 3 bar fuel press. and 250 at 4 bar I believe. That means a lot of by-pass. I think the other Carter pumps with 72 gallon/h rate (325 ltr/h?) would still provide more then the 044, but not have as much by-pass.
Too much pump in general would not be a problem however :)

Tnx.

That was my thought about too much is OK. After having fuel supply issues in another car, and not having baffles in my tank I thought I'd just put something in that even if the pick-up gets uncovered momentarily there is NO WAY my high pressure pump will lose supply. My hi-pres is a WALBRO but will be a 044 sooner than later. (walbro is LOUD).

Mike

[Wally]

You're probably right Mike, so I 'won' me a 100 gph one from evilbay. Hope it gets here soon.
In the meantime, I figured this turbo needs a bit smaller A/R for this little engine and it came in today: 0.91 instead of 1.00 A/R: Just looks as big as the other one :lmao:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/BW091housing005.jpg~original

[MX67]

Downsizing is cool these days :D

[Wally]

Yeah, allthough visually it doesn't really looks to be any smaller...:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/BW091housing013.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/BW091housing014.jpg

Didn't take more than a hour to exchange them :)
New feed pump (Carter 100gallon/h) also installed.
Attending a dyno day on the 12th march, so fingers crossed it now all works..

[70Turbobug]

Man....we have to wait almost 2 weeks? That sucks :D LOL! If the trend keeps going as it has in the past,this change should also bring up another 50HP at the same boost level? I´m sure you will pass the 450HP line...

[MarnixGSR]

Ultra cool.

[Wally]

Just went for some better fuel just across the border today and had the opportunity to tune the maps again and check out the new feed pump, higher fuel pressure setting and the other turbine housing.
All worked VERY well :D
Boost threshold for my own 1 bar boost reference went down 300rpm to about 4030 rpm :)
Boost and fuel was also very stable so tuning was much more easy.
All set for dyno day :cool:

[Xellex]

Wally, a quick question: Are you using the stock beetle voltage regulator or the riechert (porsche) one? I'm trying to build a 1.7 type4 for this season, and I was wondering if I could just use the stock regulator, in it's original position, and wire the porsche alternator just like the orig. vw one was.

[Wally]

What regulator is a topic on its own. Get the right one, type4's also work, but not always as good as could be. I use an electronic one.

Anyways,
Got my pics from Julian today Yeah!:
Thanks to Julian Hunt for making these: http://www.julianhunt.net

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/1303/IMG_5480.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/1303/683J5917.jpg

and some of my buddy Franc his car:
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Andere%20autos/683J5876.jpg~original

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Andere%20autos/683J5874.jpg~original

[Xellex]

yeah, you're right.. I was just feeling a bit lazy, and wanted to leave all the wiring alone. But I'll use the regulator that came with the riechert kit.
Oh, and great pics!!!

[70Turbobug]

Nice Pics! What is your friend Franc running in his bug?

[Wally]

Nice Pics! What is your friend Franc running in his bug?
Type 4 2056cc 44x38, Web86, Remmele exhaust, DTA E48.
Stock gearbox, which then of course broke on the line at Santa Pod on the 2nd run after some expert advice on how to launch from 'some' DKR member :lmao:
Car is very, very nicely done, much nicer then mine and is very light and very good roadholding (I drove it last year).\

BTW, I have bought a piece of (cage) pipe to re-stiffen the right-hand side gearbox fork after I needed to remove one leg of the Cup-strebe because of the turbo's 4" air intake piping..

[ferfre007]

What regulator is a topic on its own. Get the right one, type4's also work, but not always as good as could be. I use an electronic one.

Anyways,
Got my pics from Julian today Yeah!:
Thanks to Julian Hunt for making these: http://www.julianhunt.net

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/1303/IMG_5480.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/1303/683J5917.jpg

and some of my buddy Franc his car:
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Andere%20autos/683J5876.jpg~original

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Andere%20autos/683J5874.jpg~original

amazing!!!!!!!!


what are the dimensions of the wheels?

[Wally]

On my car, on drag race set-up as seen above (black wheels), the fronts rims are 3,5x17 size and rears are 7,5x15 iirc.

[ferfre007]

I understand, these wheels are safe with the car super lightweight

excuse my English, just use the translator hehe!

[Wally]

I understand, these wheels are safe with the car super lightweight



No, not safe for normal use on the road, ONLY for dragracing!!
The gold centered wheels are for the road and circuit (18")

The car is super heavy by the way, not lightweight at all ;)

[Wally]

Got bored today and downloaded the log from the 1,8 bar (1,8-1,9 ~26.5-28 psi actually) boost 'mishap':
Apperently the alu cylinders can survive this boost! Who would have thought that?
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/BorgW091boost18bar4700rpm.jpg

[70Turbobug]

Cool! Am I reading this correctly? 4703rpm and the throttleposition is WOT / 100%? The other 2 graphs are going downwards after that except the throttle-it remained opened? Sorry...I´m still learning how to read these things.Or ist that just what the peak was?

[Wally]

Cool! Am I reading this correctly? 4703rpm and the throttleposition is WOT / 100%?

Correct!

The other 2 graphs are going downwards after that except the throttle-it remained opened?

No, you have to read it from right to left: the car ' drives' from the right to the left, then you see that the rpm is climbing and boost is rising, all under WOT till I take my foot off.
Hope that will make things more clearly?

Sorry...I´m still learning how to read these things.Or ist that just what the peak was?
The vertical line is just a point in time I choose in this example to let the values show. At 280 kPa (1,8 bar or 26,5 psi) boost the wastegate begins to open as boost gradually climbs less from there on. That was about 55 or 60% wastegate duty cycle (not shown or logged). Boost then rises a little further to 1,9 bar (28 psi) but you see the boost control taking boost out and adding it very quickly. Thats the effect of the EBC in action and explains the wavy line at that point onwards.
Hope this helps a bit?

[70Turbobug]

No, you have to read it from right to left: the car ' drives' from the right to the left, then you see that the rpm is climbing and boost is rising, all under WOT till I take my foot off.

Ok now I understand reading from right to left and the vertical line being your chosen point of reference, thanks! Now it makes sense ;) How were your temps and afr at 1.9 bar?

[Humble]

I'm curious to see temps too and turbo response at lower rpms 3k-4.5k (when it starts spooling to max boost). I have to remember to read your logs right to left (backwards btw ;) ) is that a "feature" or an option with your ecu?

Other than that it looks good, you've got me looking at the bw turbos now, specifically the EFR 8374 with a 87mm turbine and .90 a/r for my 2165cc @ 25psi (current boost limit w/o intercooling).

[Wally]

How were your temps and afr at 1.9 bar?

Dude! What do you think is going on in a bug at 1.9 bar boost and 5K rpm on a public highway (german Autobahn)?
I was lucky to check the boost gauge and notice that too high setting at all :eekno:, let alone watch other gauges :lmao:

The log direction is stock and non changable...It constantly adds log info to the left, so everything shifts to the right as the log info builds.
Its not that strange if your used to it I guess ;)

I agree, the new high tech BW EFR (engineered for racing) turbo's are the shiznizz! The EFR 8374 would have been my choise as well. Pity the twin-scroll version is not due untill a few months, so we have to wait for real-life results. I think the ultimate hp that that one supports might be close to mine. So, its plenty probably :D

[paul_f]

Wally,

With your DTA are you running it with MAP as the load for the main fuelling/ignition maps or TPS with MAP multiplication?

Cheers
Paul

[Wally]

Paul,
I have only ever ran TPS.
Now with the turbo motor I use an additional map-sensor for fuel and timing compensation when under boost.

[paul_f]

Thanks for that!

A friend is switching from an E48 to a S60 on his turbo bug and is currently using TPS and were weren't sure whether to switch to MAP as load instead of TPS. We will stay with TPS

[70Turbobug]

Dude! What do you think is going on in a bug at 1.9 bar boost and 5K rpm on a public highway (german Autobahn)?
I was lucky to check the boost gauge and notice that too high setting at all , let alone watch other gauges

LOL...I meant the log files:D Or is that not recorded? You must overcome your fears young Padawan and drive on the autobahn every day..:lmao:

[Wally]

Ah! No, those temps are both measured with a thermocouple and the ecu doesn't have the ability to register those. Unless you have an expensive adapter box...

Today was a dyno day, but on the way there, I had almost no boost anymore. Engine runs very well, but no boost :(
I checked and even removed parts of the intake and downpipe (turbo spins fine, no play), but couldn't find a leak or anything, so I returned home. Still no clue as what the cause is.

[volkdent]

I wondered about the machining on the turbine space, the gap around the wheel. Is it possible that one of the faces needs to be machined more to tighten up the seal around the wheel?

I am not a turbo guy per se, but it looked like you just added a larger housing to your existing piece, and I wondered if maybe they needed to be matched somehow?

Lame question, but I think you might understand what I'm thinking. It's not like you to do something wrong, and the engine still runs so it's not like you left a rag in there or something, but low boost could be that the air is not being channeled well around the turbine wheel to create boost? Just a thought.

Jason

[Wally]

I understand your question and its a very valid one. This extra turbine house is however meant for a small series of same-size frames.
Most turbo's can be ordered with a variety of turbine A/R's so they all have the same 'form' so to speak.

After some wrenching today it turned out I had an exhaust leak from the complex part where I made the twin exits into one for the wastegate.
I have welded most of it shut now (saw some black traces) and had full boost again :) Not the same respons I had on my trip with this housing to germany last week, but close enough. Maybe I missed a spot, will have to look lateron some more into it.
Pfft..

[Wally]

Specially for Sandeep, my compensation for removing one side of the Cupstrebe as it was in the way of the turbo (inlet):

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Chassis/Strebekooi-vork004.jpg

[70Turbobug]

Glad to hear it wasn't a problem with your turbo. It's strange that you had no boost though, sounds like that leak was not that small?

[Wally]

Luck and badluck all in one...

This was the perpertrader that made he resonance and had the turbo spool 250 rpm later then before: A piece of the divertor wall I had welded in there broken off and got loose:
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/TSheaderbouw001-1.jpg

Turbo wheel looks fine and not hit :oops:

[judgie]

that was a lucky escape, not worth thinking about the damage it could of cuased.