Mythbuster: continuing project thread of my 1303 '75

[Wally]

Had a great track day for the first time after 6 years together with a good friend of mine in the grey german style 1303 with 2 ltr T4 and some Porsche friend of him.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/840/43514737231_aff3971f92_b.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/923/43514739001_96cdc314c2_b.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1782/43467722282_a64495b095_b.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1766/43467720982_e007887679_b.jpg

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1783/42610118645_6e86254733_b.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/940/43514733411_cdab27e250_b.jpg

[412STi]

Zandvoort!!
thumbs up; thumbs up;
(smilies did'nt work!!)

[H2OSB]

You live my desired life, Wally!

[Wally]

You live my desired life, Wally!

Haha! I'am sure it isn't that desired ;) but thanks for the nice reaction :)

I did find an issue with the limitations (lets hope its just that) of the breathing capacity of the engine as on contineus high revs plus boost, too much oil fumes came out of the breather box.
Just added the little can under the oil plate so sump is a little bit deeper, so the dry sump can do its job better. Also ordering a larger breather box.
Hopefully both these will keep it under control.

[Wally]

My girl driving shotgun, made this small clip :)

https://youtu.be/032bzvlWbLg

[rioprelude]

Nice video, my wife would probably freak out on track going that fast!

[Steve C]

Nice video, your gearbox sounds like mine:D

[owdlvr]

Nice video, your gearbox sounds like mine:D

haha, I WISH mine sounded that good :P Everyone who rides in my car asks if it's about to explode.

[Wally]

Nice video, my wife would probably freak out on track going that fast!

She's awesome: wasn't even that impressed with our speed... :lmao:

We run the same gearbox obviously hey Steve ;)
It is indeed pretty loud on lift-off. Since its still in one piece after all these years and abuse, I'll leave it be :)

[Steve C]

Love my G50 it still works after all hell I give it

[H2OSB]

That sounds delicious!

H2OSB

[Wally]

Well, not everything works out with my builds too as these pics prove:

https://live.staticflickr.com/856/43085859554_cdc7a95aaa_b.jpg

Torched a cylinder and head big time!
Root cause probably the one-off cast cylinders. No matter how thick the walls were...
Partly also my own fault as I didn't retorque the heads more often, which would have been more wise because the cast cylinders did need more 'seating' then I usually am customed to. I noticed this when disassembling the engine: head torque was too little on the other cylinders, so thats probably what started this.

Still, all other cylinders also showed a much larger bore up top then bottom of the cylinder (!), so they just didn;t stood up to the cylinder pressures I ran anyways. That also explained the excessive breathing I experienced: the rings just couldn't keep it sealed up top in the cylinders..

Anyways, for a 'quick' fix I bought a set of the AA 98mm birals so I could reuse at least my pistons.
Head is fixed at the moment already and I am reassembling the engine again :)

[effvee]

Walter, what happen to your Ottinger Cylinder?

[effvee]

Walter, what happen to your Ottinger Cylinder? The width of the sealing surface looked thick enough. :mad:

[Wally]

Walter, what happen to your Ottinger Cylinder? The width of the sealing surface looked thick enough. :mad:

I sold that 66x103 engine about 7 years ago and started building this new 74x98 one, which is partly what this thread is about. Pay a little attention brother :rolleyes: ;) :D

[Steve C]

Hi

Bad luck. A VW performance shop I worked in years ago used make seamless steel sleeves to fit over the top section of 92mm barrels to stop them from spreading, could something like that be used on your barrels?

Steve

[Clatter]

Whooo!! Like a cutting torch!!:eek:

[Wally]

Rebuild process started a while back, but I just had the long block back together with the 98mm AA birals.
Other small difference with the former set-up is that I could and have installed under cylinder tins again. They only needed a little shortening, but no biggie.

Oettinger crank, Pauter rods, Pauter cam and gear:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/33830459458_9b1759e2c6_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46791696125_beda74f1ce_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/33830458988_9526180308_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/33830458598_e23d0568a4_b.jpg

[effvee]

Yessss,eye candy

[dub_crazee]

Sorry to hear you’ve had issues wally, did you ever get back on the dyno and up to boost to 1 bar or did this happen before you had the chance?

[Wally]

Sorry to hear you’ve had issues wally, did you ever get back on the dyno and up to boost to 1 bar or did this happen before you had the chance?
The latter unfortunately. I was very hopefull though, as at just 0.7 bar it already was doubling the hp from the N/A dynorun on the same dyno.

[Wally]

Thought to take a pic before the pulley and cooling parts cover it all:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/32780024827_4f3530b36a_b.jpg

Like this:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47723402741_6b6da5cc8d_b.jpg

[Wally]

Its ridicoulous: I posted one picture (the above one) of the engine in the flat4 racers section on FB and got 500 likes, 56 shares and 50 responses...

[DORIGTT]

It's just tough because its hard to search on FB, and most want that instant gratification that it provides.

[Wally]

Almost in again :)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/40806325243_5137dcd766_b.jpg

[412STi]

:thumbup::thumbup:
:goodjob::

[Wally]

Engine long block is back in. Hydraulic clutch feels good again.

Test mounted intake (picture) to mark the spot where to install the waterinjection nozzle.
Since my old controller had a short and no replacement parts were made for it anymore (...), the quick and dirty solution was to get the newest kit.
Unfortunately, I really could not reuse even some of the old installed waterlines (slightly different outer diameters), so had to removed all of the older wiring and waterlines... grr! Hate to do wiring, but had to.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46873867035_4549a8077a_z.jpg

[volkdent]

This is going to be fun!!!

Jason

[Bad bug]

Wally are you running your dry sump tank up front again.

[Wally]

Wally are you running your dry sump tank up front again.

Yep, since ~forever. Some people still think thats a bad idea. Busted that myth long time ago. Its all about how you execute things.

[Bad bug]

Ok great the suction line from the tank is what size AN fittings also where do you run your lines.

[Wally]

AN12 iirc, inside tunnel

[Bad bug]

Doesn't that create moisture spots in the chassis that could cause rusting to appear.

[dub_crazee]

So close now Wally!!

[Wally]

Indeed mate!
In fact, I had the car dyno’d already at 1.0 bar boost...😎

[Wally]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48060809836_0136ae3429_b.jpg

First run 0,95-0,97 bar: 404 hp
last run 1,05-ish bar yielded 414 hp, so anyways it proved that you can make 400 hp on 1 bar on 100% gasoline bought at the pump :mrgreen:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48038740908_710c406c13_b.jpg
cold air/engineparts (first run) spools better ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVJcey1cX5M

[dub_crazee]

That’s absolutely awesome Walter, congrats on another myth busted....or goal achieved. I can’t even imagine what the feels like. How heavy is your car out of interest?

[Wally]

It was weighed for inspection with the turbo engine and that was 960 kg about 12 years ago.
That was probably with half a tank and all seats in place.
Since then a few things are lighter, but added stuff too.
Hoping 930-950 kg on the street and 910-929 in dragrace mode..
But all educated guesses on my behalf ;-)

[dub_crazee]

Is that with the g50? About 100kg over a stock bug then! Not bad at all! And around 450hp per tonne.....not many cars can boast that!

[Wally]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07wowurYL9M&feature=share

[Simon]

Hi Walter,

Long time no see! :)
More than 400 horses, pretty impressive :O

How are you liking the AA birals so far/how are they holding up?
I was wondering why you picked the birals instead of the plain iron cylinders, I'd expect the biral ones to be a bit weaker.
And did you do any machining/honing to them or are they stock?

Cheers,
Simon

[Wally]

Hi Walter,

Long time no see! :)
More than 400 horses, pretty impressive :O

How are you liking the AA birals so far/how are they holding up?

I was wondering why you picked the birals instead of the plain iron cylinders, I'd expect the biral ones to be a bit weaker.
And did you do any machining/honing to them or are they stock?

Cheers,
Simon
Hey Simon,

Thanks! And very good to hear from you again! That has indeed been a looooong time!

I like the birals very much: in fact, I slao was a little worried about their thin-ish wall thickness, but they have withstand over 100hp per barrel without issue. So that is a true testiment to them imo.

The reason to fit those birals in the first place was because it was the ONLY stock 98mm cylinder on the market after I had burn a hole in my home-made cast all alu-nikasil cylinders...
This way I could re-use the JE pistons and could rebuild the engine relatively quickly.
After all, it seemed a little too quickly as I had accidently made a mistake (it happens :lmao: ) and switched pistons, which meant the valve pockets didn;t line up and the intakes finally did hit the pistons. The had less then 1mm clearence without the valve pockets lining up, so at 9000RPM it lived, which was surprising in itself, even more without reserve as it turned out.

Long story short, rebuilding the engine again as it did received quite a bit of damage on valves (bend) and pistons/cylinder and I am now gonna use 102mm Deutz cylinders and new pistons.
Will also use a JPM cam, which Johannes 'agreed upon' :D

So, no more meets for this year unfortunately. I did reach my goal of 400hp at 1 bar, but the 10-second run still has to be done. Only then will I sleep again ;)

I spilled my beans, but what are you working on yourself atm?
cheers, Walter

[Simon]

Hey Simon,

Thanks! And very good to hear from you again! That has indeed been a looooong time!

I like the birals very much: in fact, I slao was a little worried about their thin-ish wall thickness, but they have withstand over 100hp per barrel without issue. So that is a true testiment to them imo.

The reason to fit those birals in the first place was because it was the ONLY stock 98mm cylinder on the market after I had burn a hole in my home-made cast all alu-nikasil cylinders...
This way I could re-use the JE pistons and could rebuild the engine relatively quickly.


OK, that's good to hear. I was/am considering some AA cylinders and pistons for the type4 engine (it's not running yet, had a lot of other stuff that distracted me, time flies apparently ;) ). Not sure if I'll pick the birals over the plain iron ones though.
And obviously you have (or had :( ) some nice pistons already, the AA ones are probably significantly less nice, but I'm not planning on running a turbo at the moment, so should be fine I guess :).


After all, it seemed a little too quickly as I had accidently made a mistake (it happens :lmao: ) and switched pistons, which meant the valve pockets didn;t line up and the intakes finally did hit the pistons. The had less then 1mm clearence without the valve pockets lining up, so at 9000RPM it lived, which was surprising in itself, even more without reserve as it turned out.

Long story short, rebuilding the engine again as it did received quite a bit of damage on valves (bend) and pistons/cylinder and I am now gonna use 102mm Deutz cylinders and new pistons.
Will also use a JPM cam, which Johannes 'agreed upon' :D

So, no more meets for this year unfortunately. I did reach my goal of 400hp at 1 bar, but the 10-second run still has to be done. Only then will I sleep again ;)

Ohw, really sucks to hear that, sounds like a painful learning experience :(
On the other good to hear you've already got new plans! (obviously! ;)).
Haven't seen these Deutz cylinders before. Are they for a type4 or for some other engine and repurposed?

If you want to share I'd be interested to know why you're going with 102mm vs the 98mm you had (or anything else for that matter).
I still have a bunch of these decisions to make as well (2056, 2270, etc)

And 9000 RPM is quiet a bit, do you make that regularly?


I spilled my beans, but what are you working on yourself atm?
cheers, Walter

Well, I have to move my car out of it's current home end of September and I'm trying to make it so that it can be driven out instead of towed or on an ambulance ;)
Quiet a bit of work to do, especially since I'd like to wrap up some of the suspension changes I was working on (do or don't do M030 suspension front, uniball or GWD torsion bar covers in the rear, do or don't do 944 bilstein cup coilovers in the rear, etc).
I'll be using the stock engine for this, simply because I won't have enough time to finish that as well, but this sudden call to action was a good reminder that I should finish the type4 conversion :)
That will probably be a project for this winter.
Also I received a bunch of "vrij rijden" gift cards which I'd like to use ;)
I'll create a topic here either this or next week to post some updates.

[Wally]

Haven't seen these Deutz cylinders before. Are they for a type4 or for some other engine and repurposed?

If you want to share I'd be interested to know why you're going with 102mm vs the 98mm you had (or anything else for that matter).
I still have a bunch of these decisions to make as well (2056, 2270, etc)

And 9000 RPM is quiet a bit, do you make that regularly?


Deutz is a tractor manufactorer and is always a diesel engine...The older jugs are better to use, but harder to find and as the word seems to be out about these (old autocrossers used these 25 years ago already..), prices on ebay for used barrels are up. They used to be 'free' (tossed from old broken engines)

With Original head castings I would always keep as small a bore as possible as the heads warp originally already, even more so when fly-cut and even more so when 'openend up' for big bore. Everything you cut away is a weakening...

However, the Original 98mm bore idea had a long history from when friends made a set of custom made alu-'nikasil' cylinders and the were in 98mm, no choice there, but enough for a turbo engine ;)

However again..., with the billet heads I now use, warping is not an issue anymore, but I also want to keep the case openings as small as possible as opening that also weakens the case (spigot). The edges where the cylinders rest are extremely small on engines that run the standard 103mm bore cylinders. I don't like that for a (really) big hp engine.

As one doesn't always have free choice and everything is a bit of a comprimise, I got a very good 'deal' on the cylinders which were 102mm to begin with, so I'll have the bottom turned down a little to minimize wall (2mm) and keep case strength up a bit.
I'd rather had 100mm and keep that 1mm more in the case, but sometimes you also go with what you have and its probably not really that much of an issue and the extra cc's give a bit more bottom torque (spool), so that nice as well.

Long story, but considerations for decisions are never simple nor single :)

[Wally]

Somehow its been too long since an update! And this great forum can use a little more traffic I think.

The 102mm Deutz cylinders have been machined, new JE pistons with dish have arrived also and new JPM cam is awaiting as well.

I had damaged a Pauter valve adjuster, but Pauter wasn't too keen on sending me a replacement, so I looked online (JEGS) for the 3/8-24 adjuster with solid cup. Crower is the one Pauter used as these was exactly the same :D
Very relieved I found it and it turned out to be the same one!

The new Nascar Ti valves I bought had a very unusual valve angle, so a new cutter (55 degrees) had to be ordered. We still wait till my shop gets it, so the heads can finally be finished as well.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49420917627_1dc3eb8bcf_z.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49420231353_f831cc8704_b.jpg

[LLVWGL]

What is the Horsepower of those dyno runs?

Great Build!

[Wally]

What is the Horsepower of those dyno runs?

Great Build!

404 and 414hp ;)

Probably would have been more if the ignition wasn't loosing power up top from a bad ground/earthing...

[Wally]

Alright, back to rebuilding this engine :D

Mocking up for cam timing:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49695111316_628fa09c50_b.jpg

Crank assembly untouched since emoved and will go right back:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49695698577_3b3ee08b98_b.jpg

This was the damaged cylinderhead, now all repaired again:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49703745471_56c802d41e_b.jpg

Because of the all steel cylinders and the general high engine bay temps I had with the headers on top, I am also upgrading the oil cooler to a bigger (higher) one and have ordered some Naca ducts for the quarter windows, so cool air can enter from another point in the engine bay.
Work to do!

[effvee]

Yes, more eye candy. Are the cylinders deutz ?

[owdlvr]

So sweet!

[Wally]

Yes, Deutz 102mm cylinders this time around, so I paid a little more attention to cooling as its not Biral material: bigger oil cooler and side scoops to ventilate the engine bay better when the turbo is back in there (after I do my N/A runs with it).

So, plan is to dyno it N/A first to get some baseline again and since I need to make my exhaust myself anyways, I wanted to incorporate some anti-reversion chambers in there at the same time.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49756231847_c744b05209_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49745362721_1a1fbeaea6_b.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49744838183_b0b062a5eb_b.jpg

[Wally]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49769061093_c5fe94b8e1_b.jpg

[wouter1303]

That's nog going to work Wally :D
Or does it collect at the bottom and going to the front?

[Wally]

That's nog going to work Wally :D
Or does it collect at the bottom and going to the front?

Its meant to become (work in progress) a 4-2-1 header system with anti-reversion chambers build-in. Its also partially stepped :)
And it will be possible to retain my twin spark operation (the former of-the-shelf type 1 header I used made it impossible to use the bottom plugs as thats where the 1 and 3 headers ran...), so I am hoping for excellent results, even though its a low compression engine (buid for boost).

[LLVWGL]

Front mount Oil cooler?

[wouter1303]

Its meant to become (work in progress) a 4-2-1 header system with anti-reversion chambers build-in. Its also partially stepped :)
And it will be possible to retain my twin spark operation (the former of-the-shelf type 1 header I used made it impossible to use the bottom plugs as thats where the 1 and 3 headers ran...), so I am hoping for excellent results, even though its a low compression engine (buid for boost).

I was just kidding, i very much like the things you do with your car.
And I am curious how it al will become once it is done, keep us posted! with a lot of pics of course

[Wally]

Of course!

Today I had the two-yearly tech inspection for road legality. Passed again :D

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49814163717_80171ff913_b.jpg

Had some small issue with a new aftermarket valve cover I wanted to try, but it leaked a lot! The welded in slots to keep the gasket in its place was just a tad too high and hit the head sealing ege, so the gasket didn't touch and therefore leaked. At home grinded just 1mm away from the tab and it sealed ok...

Exhaust isn;t that noisy, but I ordered too big one, so it hangs a little too low. Its just temporary, so I don;t mind for now.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49814163797_6d38f26a6c_b.jpg

[Wally]

Front mount Oil cooler?

Yes, big one, fits just behind front apron.

Here is the old (small, old Mercedes transmission cooler) one and the current one:
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49745362721_1a1fbeaea6_b.jpg

[effvee]

Hello, question, how do you feel about twin scroll turbos?

[Wally]

Hello, question, how do you feel about twin scroll turbos?

Very positively as I have run them on the last 3 engines 😉

[DORIGTT]

Wally,
How much ground clearance do you have with the exhaust header setup the way it is?

[Wally]

Wally,
How much ground clearance do you have with the exhaust header setup the way it is?
As the car sits now (I just measured for you) almost 5 inches (12cm). Silencer is a little over 4 inches..

[wouter1303]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49814163797_6d38f26a6c_b.jpg[/QUOTE]

Now I see which way it is going. Cool design

[Steve C]

Hi Wally

Looking good. Is that an OEM oil cooler or an aftermarket one? Does it fit behind the rear apron without any modification? I'm asking because I'm yet to source an oil cooler for my sons Beetle.

Steve

[owdlvr]

Wally, what do you use for lines for the oil cooler, and how have you routed them? -10AN I'm presuming?

[Wally]

Hi Wally

Looking good. Is that an OEM oil cooler or an aftermarket one? Does it fit behind the rear apron without any modification? I'm asking because I'm yet to source an oil cooler for my sons Beetle.

Steve
Its apperently an OEM oilcooler, but its from a more obscure model (AMG?) Mercedes or so I understood. It has no part numbers, but I was looking for an upgraded one with the same M22x1,5 thread connections.
The guy in Poland had 2 or 3 of those...
It fits so snug directly behind the front apron and the spare wheel well, that I didn't even need mounting tabs or something! I just ty-wrapped it to both outer grill mesh holes :D

Oil feed from tank in the nose to engine is AN12. Oil suction and back to the front oil cooler and then tank is just 1/2" (13mm iirc) inner diameter oil line.
No problem like that for over 13 years now with all engines ;)

[Wally]

For those that don't do FB or STF, I got the engine on the dyno yesterday and it did even better then I expected!

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49842259022_278559ce7b_b.jpg

244Nm @6K and 226,5 CHP @ 7K with the low CR engine with air filters, muffler and horizontal fan belt running up to 8K made me very happy :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKhbYc0gOGY

[Steve C]

nice

[Wally]

Just a pic from early this year just out of hibernation ;-)

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50008490563_38967a2081_c.jpg

[H2OSB]

Walter, I love your 1303

Granted, I am a bit partial

[Wally]

Haha! Thanks man!

[Clatter]

Just wanted to chime in that i read the whole thread again over the last few evenings.

Thanks for the inspiration.

[Wally]

Haven't been here in a while, but for those still here: after the re-install of the whole turbo set-up, it made 475 hp at 1,6-ish bar boost on gasoline, 0% Ethanol, gas (the higher octane of course) bought at the pump here in Netherlands.

At Santa Pod I finally reached my long time goal and it ran a 10,58 seconds in the 1/4 mile at 130mph! Way more then I anticipated.
I drove there, camped at the track and drove back home again on my own wheels - as I had always planned.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52335861316_b4450e957a_h.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52336274285_9723a11295_k.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LI-_7aQIIw