Neither actually: this huge turbo was intended for fitting together with an engine upgrade to more cc's. Then a big turbo like this would make more sense. The bigger cc u[pgrade didn't happen however, hence I thought trying it on the current engine I have so much data already from.

The other idea was to decrease exhaust gas back pressure by using an even bigger (compared to the already bigger compressor) turbine wheel.
So, the turbine wheel now is double big so to speak... hence the to be expected huge lag. I think partly due to the twin-scroll set-up, lag is not as terrible as it would have been otherwise.

OTOH, less back pressure will make higher boost settings possible. For example: 20 psi gave me 30psi back pressure(!). You can fill out what this means if you have a (assuming) 1:1 ratio...
Question is will the engine internals withstand the mechanical forces (++torque) of more boost or even same boost but with more power because of the better VE I think I have now?

I tried tuning it on the road, but frankfully, its too tricky on a public road at the boost settings above 15 psi. Tuning is not complete therefore, but close enough :lmao:
-only one way to find out: drag it to the dyno :D

Dyno has been booked for coming saturday...

It will keep on making power until the valve springs float. :)

Fantastic !

Based on your last "seat of the pants" comment, I'm guessing you'll be dynoing to 15 psi then ?

Are you still using the ID1000's ?

Looking forward to the results and the conclusion of your exhaust back pressure / turbine size testing.

Sandeep

Nah, what fun would that be? There is now a 15 psi waste-gate spring in it, so 15 psi will be the lowest boost pressure setting. Waste-gate spring is setting 1 on the EBC. There are 5 settings after that :D
If the engine will hold (knock on wood), I want to at least test 22 psi (1,5 bar) as well. It looks like this combo holds boost pretty constant across the rpm range.
Yep, they might be on the small side by now, we'll just have to see...

Unfortunately, no such luck today: injectors were at 100% IDC already at 1,3 bar boost and ~6500 rpm...
But 398 hp and climbing at 1.3 bar but running at lambda 1.0 and 1.1 at that power level... that probably did the engine no good, but no problems leaving the dyno...but I still did strand on the way back home. Seemed like electrical problems or fuel delivery problems or ?
Not sure what it is yet though...

This was the first run at 15 psi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TOIdkF6mbg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...oxertje004.jpg

You made almost 400 whp at 19lbs of boost. You were also lean, need to increase fuel at that level.

IDC at 100% ? Injectors too small also? I figured 1000cc would be enough running pump gas at that horsepower level.Perhaps not enough fuel pressure for the amount of fuel volume needed? In other words rail pressure is dropping because the pump can´t keep up with the boost/fuel ratio and maintain the desired pressure and the injectors try to compensate with longer opening intervals? It´s just a guess - I´m not sure if that makes sense but I can´t imagine that the injectors are too small at that level?

Maybe it´s none of the above and you don´t have enough electrical power/current to support the pump? What I don´t understand is,you´ve had a higher boostsetting,ran richer(?) and HP before the turbo change.So how is it possible that it suddenly collapses?

I have found the cause: my feed pump wasn't running well and I got stranded because it didn't run at that moment at all anymore!
Logical that when you have no fuel anymore, the engine dies out...duh!

I had a spare 944 pump I switched over and it started cold immediately again :mrgreen:
Pffft!
I left the fuel pressure to 60 psi, so according to the flow sheet that should give me 1180 cc, which should be enough anyways. Just need to re-map the fuel map but thats no biggie.

Very glad it was something this simple, but scary as it could have ended far worse. Amazingly and fortunately the engine held...

That's good to hear it was something simple and no damage caused!

Good Effort :D Do you have any dyno or track/ 1/4mile times from before you did anything? Would love to see the complete difference in performance from a stocker.

Hi,

I'm far from your level of power but running an EFI also and I recently had fuel delivery issues... It had nothing to do with the pump but by testing, I was amazed at how long the engine keeps running with the pump unplugged...
I've therefore decided to play it safe, always have a second pump in place, in case the first one lets go far from home...

Hope yours holds from now on...

And if I may add, you're car and its engine and quite amazing... and every time I recieve the "Post update", I just can't help thinking : What if I added even a small turbo to my 2007...

Sebastien

Thanks Seb, but ^^thats what the tricky side of it is: people think adding a 'small turbo' gives only a little more hp, so its probably not so hard on the engine...
However, thats where you would go wrong! The smaller the turbo, the larger the exhaust restriction, the higher the Back Pressure in the exhaust, the higher your exhaust gas temperatures, the sooner you have knock and temperature related exhaust valve and valve seat problems.

IF your adding a turbo, use a large one with respect to your engine size and more specifically: also one with a relatively large turbine wheel compared to the compressor wheel.
Thats what I love about the Borg-Warners: their compressor-turbine wheel ratio is larger towards the turbine side compared to Garrett turbo's, which lowers back-pressure and increases efficiency.

I guess You have expectations from your engine. How much power You think it can handle and where's the limit?

When I first read that the injectors were at 100%, 1.3 bar, 398hp I was thinking something was not right.

Glad to hear it was a minor problem and the engine was not damaged from the feeder fuel pump failure.

Sandeep

Yeah, it didn't quite add up to me either tbh, but if you see 100% IDC in the datalog, my first reaction was: injector too small.
I actually learn something everytime I visit the dyno ;)


1,21 GigaWatts :D (you have to be a little bit old(er) to get that one I'am afraid...)

Just make sure your flux compensator is in tact lol

:bricks:

Haha! :lmao:

I really dunno MX67 where the limit of what component truly is.
You have to understand that this set-up was really meant just to be similar or slightly better then the 220hp n/a 2,7 ltr engine its partly damaged parts came from. That 220 goal was very easily reached and now we're approaching almost double that! :eek: So the turbocharging concept has really surprised me and quickly made me realise how much potential it has. I always thought a type 4 would be very suitable for a turbo due to the inherent strength and better cooling possibilities, but now I am at a point where I really don't seem to know anymore where it stops.
That alone is very exiting and makes me very enthousiastic to explore whats ultimately possible.
It also means I really really have no idea where the limit is. The turbo has a theoretical hp potential at about 700-720 if it was used on an Evo at 30-35 psi. At least thats my guesstimate with what it flows. So there's no limit there. All inlet and exhaust restrictions on my engine are non-exitent anymore with the latest updates. So, the only restriction imo at the moment is the cam with its relatively low lift and duration.
Still, if you see how power still seems to want to climb past 7K, it isn't that bad . The 114LC makes it a wide powerband and you see and feel that.
If you see that 0.3 bar more boost made 50 additional hp, maybe more (60?) if fuel had kept flowing, then 1.6 bar could bring ~450-460 hp... Not clear what will break first if anything, or when the mild cam will hinder flow to choke point.
The potential is surely there, thats also what makes it so exiting imo.

You're old too Mark! :lmao:

Officially satisfied with the answer. :D

You must know that answers like this make rest of us going on and being more entusiastic, that's why I/we maybe sometimes bore You with questions...

I've never seen so impressive AC engine and I'm going Type 4 because of your Bug. Beer's on me when I see You somewhere arround :cheers:







and hoping for a taxi ride :D

LOL !

Its actually the Flux Capacitor, for the record :D Great series BTW.

Sandeep

Hi Wally

What type of pump were you using as a feed pump? By feed pump is that the lift pump to the swirl pot?

Steve

Just a regular Bosch pump from a 3ltr or 3,2ltr 911.
Yes, its used as a lift pump to feed the 'swirl pot' or 'catch can' or whatever people call it, so I can still take corners after the tank is half empty.
The fact that its a pressure pump is not the reason it failed imo if thats what your thinking: it made gurgling noises when I used it as a pressure pump before already, but it always had done that. Since it never skipped a beat, I paid no attention to it, but that probably was a sign after all.

Do you have the feed pump inline with the rest i.e tank-> feed pump -> catchcan -> Bosch pump , or does it have a seperate line from the tank into the catch can? The reason I´m asking is,I´ve seen a race car where the catch can had 2 inlets: one from the tank and one from the feed pump and it confused me why he did that..

are you sure that inlet from the tank wasn't in fact a return -outlet- back to the tank from the catch can?

No seperate and/or additional gravity feeding if thats what you mean.
Return line from regulator still goes back directly into the fuel tank close to wwhere the feed pump picks up the fuel from the tank.
Upper connection on catch can goes back to tank as overflow and also acts as a breather.
Pics of the set-up are on page 33: http://www.germanlook.net/forums/sho...t=9953&page=33

The idea of mine is/was that a zero-pressure feed pump (which is now the 944 pump) always supplies more fuel then the high pressure pump will be able to flow at 45 or 60 psi.

Hi Wally

The reason that I asked what sort of pump you were using to feed the surge tank / swirl pot is that myself and a friend both had noise and heat issues when using EFI type pumps to fill the surge tank / swirl pot.

My friends pump actually failed. We put it down to cavitation in the pump as it was not restricted with a pressure regulator etc as it would usually be in a EFI set up.

We are both using Carter lift pumps now.

Obviously your car has travelled many kilometres using a pump this way, but it maybe something to consider.

Steve

Thanks for the info Steve! I would feel better having a dedicated large-volume, low-psi feed pump for this tbh.
I never could find anything for this.
Hmm, worth looking into Carter pumps (never heard of them before).

That could be I didn't see where the lines went to

Why/how could that be the problem if the electric pump clearly was broke and it restarted fine with a new pump?
The lines run as intended btw ;)

More header pics at the import site. They are WRX this time so a bit more relevent. Divided housing, but incorrect cylinder pairing

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread...599745&page=18

Why would you say incorrect cylinder pairing? Opposing cylinders are paired, which is correct, also on a subaru.
He just did not kept the single wastegate divided, which he should and that is indeed a BIG mistake. Might as well kept it simple and 4 int 1 then.

Hehe, there's been a misunderstanding, I was reffering to 70Turbobug's post about seeing a race car with 2 separate inlets from the tank to the catch can, and it has nothing to do with your electrical pump problem :P

Ah, mystery solved ;-)

Right you are. I was viewing on a small netbook screen.

Wally,

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRT-P4600HP/

This is the one I have been using to feed my surge tank. It seems to work well and haven't had any issues yet. I had some noise from it but it was caused but not mounting it properly and the body of the pump was touching some steel, giving off some vibration.

I also have a small bleed line of 3/16" coming from my surge tank and tees into the return line. This ensures that I do not build up pressure in the surge tank.

Mike

I searched and noticed that one too. It flows 100 gallons per hour, which is 450 ltr/h (?) which is quite a lot: a 044 pumps 300 ltr/h at 3 bar fuel press. and 250 at 4 bar I believe. That means a lot of by-pass. I think the other Carter pumps with 72 gallon/h rate (325 ltr/h?) would still provide more then the 044, but not have as much by-pass.
Too much pump in general would not be a problem however :)

Tnx.

That was my thought about too much is OK. After having fuel supply issues in another car, and not having baffles in my tank I thought I'd just put something in that even if the pick-up gets uncovered momentarily there is NO WAY my high pressure pump will lose supply. My hi-pres is a WALBRO but will be a 044 sooner than later. (walbro is LOUD).

Mike

You're probably right Mike, so I 'won' me a 100 gph one from evilbay. Hope it gets here soon.
In the meantime, I figured this turbo needs a bit smaller A/R for this little engine and it came in today: 0.91 instead of 1.00 A/R: Just looks as big as the other one :lmao:

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...5.jpg~original

Downsizing is cool these days :D