Alright, wherever I go, and ask engine questions. I get Talk to Jake Talk to Jake. I've got the idea.. I've also gotten a few. "Ya whatever go build a 1916 type 1 and boost it!" And mabey one person sugested to build a 2117 T1.

would it be worth it to build a big or turbo type 1 while saving for jakes kit (the only type 1 stuff I have is mabey a tired engine. I may be able to get some ratio rockers and some 041 heads. Where as I have a 1.8 or 2.0L T4 shortblock with Webber 44s and manifolds. They all need rebuilds)

or should I just say ya whatever and put the car in the gerage (the 1600 thats in it is tired. Don't know how tired but it's tired) and save to buy the engine and stuff it in? (in the mean time all the money from my old car will go into this car doing paint and interior work)

Or should I just drive it as a tired 1600? How reliable are the tired 1600s? If it will slowly yet reliably. I can save mucho gas $$ buy not driving the 4200lb Ranchero!

Here's what I would do I were in your shoes. Take your core Type IV engine, rebuild it, put a cam in it and some Porsche 2L heads on it. That should be good for about 120 horses, plenty to spank most hondas and some slower 8's. Save your money and get a sick engine from Jake or another reputable builder. While your at it go through the suspension, then the interior/paint. Looking at the pics it looks like it's straight enough to drive, looks wise.

Nick

Makes me wonder how many magic beans that will cost? perahps it would be better to boost 'er :D I can build it so junkyard rebuilt turbo.

I'm used to my MK2 VR6 with chip. 13.8 @ 102 in the quarter. never clocked 0-60.

It will cost a lot less then a another engine to replace the one that you grenaded cause you didn't build up the internals to take the boost. If you want reliable power go N/A, if you want a timebomb rocket go turbo. You could always stuff a H2O engine with turbo in your bug, like a 1.8T, or there abouts. Thats a reliable 180 horses, sure your decklid won't close but it's a turbo.

To turbo the engie will reqire the carburetors to be modified to handle boost. You must decide on draw through or blow through set-up. If you go with a draw through design you must have a turbo with a special seal to handle extreme vaccum. I think its called a carbon seal but I'm not sure. Other wise when you close the throttle quickly and cause a strong vaccum in the turbo the engine oil can be sucked out of the turbo and through your engine. Most turbos from production cars don't have the required seal for a draw through design. To blow through requires extensive work to the carbs to make them able to enrich themselfs under boost. You might want to do some reading on turbo charging your engine. "Turbomania" is a good book if a little dated, but still good information. There is another book that I used to have, I think it was called "turbocharging your engine" or something like that. The book had a calloway twin turbo V-8 on the cover and a turbo Mclaren on the rear cover. Maybe somebody knows what the name of that book really is. Anyway there was some good general turbo information in that book.

Or you could go fuel injected... :)

Ok Mysticle, reading your posts I have come to a conclusion. Get a 2270 from jake Raby that utilizes LNEngineering's nickies.
It's gonna cost a pretty penny (7-10k??)
My mentality towards Jake's engines are that they are so professionally built that in the long run, compared to using anything else, they will pay for themselves.
From what i gather:
150-165 hp with this engine combo, maybe more.
excellent gas mileage
no guesswork
way less maintenance
ton of torque
car is gonna haul ***
engine lasts forever
great technical support
etc., etc.
Might as well get a tranny from him as well.
:laugh: :cool:

I would just love to save up and have jake build an engine for me. I've came to that conclustion. Hopefully a powercurve similer to that 2316. Although not so high numbers. I don't like the up and downs in the 2270C. and the 2270C is 148HP in the dyno on his site. Which is plunty. Not building a race car here, just geting a feel for my best options.

Now I want to look for a nice cheap get up and go engine for the 'in between' times. Or I'll just stuff the car in the gerage. Do the paint and interior while saving new wireing fueltank, weatherstriping, seals..etc. Then stuff the engine in and tranny and just have a ball

The 2270 C is the most efficient engine I build. That is just ONE curve that has been there for over two years.

Keep in mind I have over 60 proven combos for the 2270C!

The 2270 "Roller" engine will make reliable power similar to a 2316 with the same tuning as a standard 2270.

The first roller cam is being designed now, and the engine is just waiting on the cam.

Well unless I go with a corvair engine..lol. I'm saving up for your type 4. Just have to figure out if I should build a beat/blow up a cheapie type 1 first.

How high does 3rd on some of these VW's go? I was riding in my friends BMW 325is and he went to pass a tuck on the freeway, and (can't drop it into third without hiting rev limiter) and droped it in 4th. If I was in my jetta. I can take 3rd up to 101 (gear chart), drop it into third and pass just about anything quickly (on the track GSR's, Newer vr6 jettas, Mustang GT's, could never catch it. Never had any vets, nsx, bikes..) I like having really nice gearing. I don't know how 4 speeds do it. Drop it into 3rd, 2nd? Power/torque acessable for quick quick acceleration from 0-100mph (ha ha just a nice point to stop) and 13.8 in the quarter. Gutted car. I'd love to make a slightly faster, better accelerating car then the jetta. At least match it.

My 914 with stock gearing will turn 110 in 3rd gear at 7700 RPM.. Thats with 181 BHP and a rev range to 8,300 RPM.. It idles stock and doesn't sound built till you tap the throttle.

"Tap the throttle" LOL.... When do you ever "Tap the throttle" in that thing. :laugh:
That 2316 is the sickest sounding, quickest reving air-cooled engine I have ever heard. It does have a nice smooth idle that will fool you into thinking it is tame. But I can say first hand that it is VERY ill tempered and sounds like it belongs on the Road Atlanta track when you open the taps.

And next it gets Nickies and a Roller cam set up- Thats automatically a boost to over 200 ponies with no other changes made to the engine..

These revver engines are $$. I'd like to have a good ole cast iron 2270 that could do it. I like the WIDE torque. But I also like the advantage of being able to sit in lower gears for longer then the other guy giving me the multiplication.


Jake, You've kinda been following along. What to do you sugest? (Dont' need anything WOOW! just 150, 160HP. 180 Max, or should I say. Max 10:1 HP per pound in a full mullholland 1302 superbeetle with 944 stuff.


I'm conserned that stock 1st gear in these VW's is going to be too short and useless.. (that's what jake uses in his trannys)?

The engine in my 914 is a standard 2316 Annihilator.. It makes 152 lb/ft of torque at just 2,000 RPM. Thats good enough to roast the tires any time.. This engine was the first of its kind and so far has been the weakest one I have built.

First is not rendered totally useless, its good for bad *** burnouts! I have an option of an aftermarket mainshaft, but it adds 600.00 to the cost of the tranny. Then we can run whatevcer gears deemed necessary by the dyno plots.

You tell me where you want the power and I combine the math with knowledge and past engines performance and make it exactly as you desire- thats the beauty of non standard combinations- and what you are paying me for..

Its all in the combo!

I'd say you need a 9.5:1 2316 with one broad *** power range and a flat torque curve- nuttin to it, just open the old wallet and slide the engine in!

I'm not to interested in 'put the engine in your wallet' although I do recognice that you need to pay for the good stuff..

So what's the best way to make power good and get optimal use of the gearing? Mabey a slighly taller third. I'm not as much interested in the amount of power I have, as much as I want the ability to use what I have. (although willing to add more as long as it's useable)

My train of thought is this: Making the most of the power you have (or finding a good range/power to get) for optimal take offs per your tirers grip.

That way if I had a really tall 1st gear to make use of the power then. Sure I could take it up to 50mph, but the top end would be useless becouse all the other gears would be adjusted accordingly. And I don't need a car with a top speed of 160.

I can generate more power perhaps, and optimise the gearing. Mabey see if I can wind the engine out to 7, 8 grand instead?

LOL again. of course when you tap that one you are at 7k in the blink of an eye...actually quicker.

He can custom build your tranny any way you see fit. The engines have enough power to easily start in second gear but first gear is an extra "burn-out gear." Just say you want to get to 120 mph as fast as possible based on the power of the engine and the setup of the car. He can make the gears do that.
I'm not sure if you mentioned it and apologies if its a silly question, but have you driven a beetle yet?? :o

Now to throw another stick in the loop (mabey) its not about geting to 120mph as fast as posible. It has to be balanced with the ability to accelerate out of corners/danger just by mashing the gas in the gear that you are in. Unless you want to do it REALLY fast, you downshift (to get peak power). Does that mean close ratio? I don't mind at all if the 3rd to 4th gear shift is a little aqward as long as I can go fast enough in 3rd. (so essencially when I shift to 4th I'm not in the peak powerband but I'm already going way to fast (street) and for the track peak power band aproches rapidly. (Say I was in the middle of noware (AZ, death valley.) I'd like to be able to cruse at a good 90-100.

Of corce..there are sacrafices to be made when I realise how much power I will have vs. how much money to spend will make me a little more realistic about something I will never (or extremely rare) that I do (ie..cruising all day at 100)



Someone onece said autocrosers prefer a 14:1 total 1st gear. And I've seen drag racers use this SUPER short ones. How is that gearing good for them? And their generating all this power on top of it! It seems to render my little "efficency of power delivory and takoff" theory inaccurate.

No I've never driven a super beetle but I have driven many underpowered way high geard cars.

The perfomance type 4 has a W I D E torque band that should do what you want.

Yes, as in power from ANYWHERE. Drop the hammer from any rpm and you're goin! :cool:
And, there is something to be said about driving a bug with the tranny it has! You have to experience it.

I was just analising and compareing gearing of what I think of modern fast cars. M3, several Porsches, Viper, Vette. I also did BMW 325is, 944, some celicas, corrado VR6

They all share many characteristis. Though all different (except the V8's first gears are WAY different) They all can take 1st to about 40, second to about 70, 3rd to about 100. Which is about what I want to do. With a Cruseing 4th.

Although 1st to 50, 2nd to 80, 3rd to 110 would be spiffy the power and RPMs to get there would be way out there. And would no doubt have to spend much more money. And I am unsure how confident it would be pulling out of corners becouse of the RPMs required to go at X amount of rate. You'd be making X amount of power. But you'd need X amout of power to take off in 1st smoothely, however unless made up for the with sheer RPMS (ie reving to 8 grand) the 1st in this set up would probibly be simililer to 2nd in the stock setup becouse of the custom gearing that there would be no real point except for better regulating of top speed?

New M3 @ 8k. 40, 68, 102, 139, 171, 206. (under 10:1 HP:lb)

911 (Turbo, Carerra. The same form about 96+ 8k (8200 redline but I took the numbers at 8k) 45 80 111 143 173 203
9k 51 91 125 161 195 229 Both of which are WAY powerful

It was interesting to see Viper (also way powerful) @6 grand
57 86 117 152 206 305

My VR6 @7 (under 10:1 HP:lb)
40, 68, 101, 128, 157


All of these are interesting to ponder on. Some of these 5/6 speeds you think hmm I could have made the gearing way lower (who wants to accel on the street over 100 anyway?) but then 1st, 2nd becouse way useless. No burn out gears!!


I did these with factory tires on the cars. It's interesting to see vipers advantage not only in HP but there is so much power there he can wind those gears out bigtime!

this thread is going in circles
 

Mysticle I can only repeat the advice everyone else has given in a similar yet different way. I would establish a budget, meaning find out how much money you really have and want to spend on this powertrain. Once you have a concrete dollar figure I would give Jake a call and tell him what you want. This takes all of the pain out of number crunching and research. He has done all of the work for you already you just have to call and tell him what you want. The biggest difference you have to consider between a type 1 tranny and all of the ones you just listed is 4 gears vs. 6. That means they have to be taller which in turn means a wider power band to optimize the gearing (i.e. type 4). Save your money for awhile and call Mr. Raby. And it may be helpful to take a cruise in a beetle so you can get an idea for how little power you need to make them fly. With 200 ponies you would damn near kill yourself.

(((((DITO)))))

I have to say that a rotary is the best way to go. Check out www.nopistons.com (I post on there too) Everyone there is very knowledgable. You can also go with carbs or EFI. My bro has a 1975 Mazda Repu (Rotary Engine Pick-Up) with about 250hp and it is a perfect daily driver. You can make as much power as you would ever want in a VW and the engines last forever as long as they have oil and gas. However if you dont change your oil, you loose an engine. Or if you run out of gas (or get fuel slosh) you loose an engine. They are fixable but you usually need a new houseing

For no money and 115 easy HP stock, 1.8 VW, just to keep things VW. Will last forever, plenty in the junkyards, mucho parts. Put on an Audi 4000 intake manifold CHEAP and you won't have to have any restrictive stuff on the exhaust or intake. For the money, can't touch reliability or power, but the PanelFantastic has a good idea too, and new.

Jason

alot of those sound good, but lots of work to make them work.

For 115, 120HP can't I use a super lightly modified 2L type 4?

Oh, What's the story with these things not being good on the freeway and catching on fire? (I saw that hapen a few years ago. Bug in front of me went around a corner and cought on fire!)

Frayed fuel lines. As long as you change the lines every so often you won't ever run into any problems. Unfortunately beetles have gotten a bad fire reputation because people don't perform simple maintenance.

Are the fuel lines rubber or what? I was planing on running a new tank and fuel lines. Can I just run rubber ones or are there specal molded ones I need to buy?

Just get the propper size rubber fuel line and clamp all the connections.

The stock fuel lines are fine you just have to look at them every now and again to make sure they aren't cracked or leaking.

I was going to replace them, just for good mesure. If rubber lines work. I'll use em. (I'm also geting a painless wireing kit and making wireing to move the battery to the front with all new electronics (as I can)) just for good measure.

I'm fimiler with old european electronics!! (ie Trimuph!)

Yes! :agree:
Probably the number one reason why engines catch fire. Mine did the day after a shop(of all people) didn't clamp my hoses... :)

besides the fire hazard, what other littler "querks" (especially the more dangerous ones) should I be aware of?

If you get a Super Beetle, chances are, unless they've done it already, you'll need to replace or at least inspect the entire front suspension setup. Ball joints, tie rods, pitman arm bushings, steering box, etc...

www.toplineparts.com !!!!!!!!!!!! :D