Thanks for the feedback and comments guys. I'm sure I could make this setup work even better. The next step is to use a pulley ratio to drive the fan slower, as recommended by Jake, and then take another datalog and see the effects.

I could also tweak the diverters a bit more as the yarn tufts look to be pointing in the right direction, but I can't see all of them due to the visibility through the spinning fan. The key to making this 911 setup work is air distribution on the 3-4 side ... thats where I have been spending all of the time in development.

I MAY cut an access panel on the 3-4 side and then replace the panel with a clear piece of plastic, just so I can see whats going on in there. I can always order a replacement shroud from FAT ... we will see. Actually, now that I think about this, it sure would speed up the development ... no more removing the alternator/diverter assembly just to make a tweak ... and in a beetle, you can't see the back of the shroud anyways.

I'm out of town till the weekend so can't upload the pics till I get back.

Big Daddy,

Send me an email to ssyan (at) digitalminds (dot) ca and we'll hook up after the weekend, as I would really like to see the '56 oval. My winter project is to install my Megasquirt/Turbo setup on the T4 :D

Sandeep

No i wish i was though. That's damian's bug he migrated to the US 3 yrs ago. The car's with him i understand, it now has a rotary engine in it ( a pitty ).

Any pics of the end result there Sandeep?

have to bump up this thread again,new to this site and must admit its excellent reading.i would love to see the picture of this 911 2 divider cap if some one has one handy.

Long awaited pics of modifications
 

Here are some pics of the mods ...

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...2.jpg~original

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...4.jpg~original

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...5.jpg~original

The shroud looks pretty rough after all of the mods, so I'll fix the holes with fibreglass and then get it repainted.

Sandeep

cooling
 

:cool: He Sandeep! When is the next club meeting??

Good work Sandeep!
WI can't wair to see how the shroud does once you add boost to it....

are you running a T4? i feel like im going to need some advice sooner or later :D
im in kingston

Yes, it is a TIV engine.

Hey Jake, I thought you were doing the HotVW's thing with Dean. Get back to work! I can't wait for the article to come out!

Krems Sandeep's car is a 2.0ltr engine as Jake say's. By the way this gut jake is the best he works on t4 engines for a living his words are gold not like the dumb *** mechanics in Jamaica. Ah! by the way did i tell you i am also from jamaica , Portmore to be exact. I am also going to put a 2.0l type4 in my bug

trust me, i know all about jake, im also on STF and thesamba.

i agree about the mechanics....all they really know about are T1's. my mechanic didnt even see how it was preferable to use a T4 instead. :confused:


im looking to put in a 2.0 too....but funds lacking :(

Krems where in Kingston are you. The conversion may not be all that expensive if you can find 2.0ltr bus cylinder head tins. Jake sell a book which tells how to do this.

i have Joe Cali's book, and i can find an engine with little prob...just need the dual carbs, to fabricate an exhaust....do the necessary work (lighten the flywheel too) and go.


im in Mona

any advice/suggestions?







to keep on topic: nice shroud, wonder how it'll do against the DTM.

by the way, Jake, i remember some time ago you said you hadnt tested the dtm against the Cali conversion, have you done so since then?

Krems: To find dual carbs check Peter or Morgan on Red hills road by the Price Right suppermarket, they should be able to help you out. Thank god i have my dual 44 webers the price for new carbs now is rediculous. Do you have a flywheel as yet if not get an 1.8l flywheel and you are set if not the waterboxer flywheel can be used with a cars starter its 228mm ( more clamping force ). About the exhaust thing i was going to fab mine i have to buy 1 5/8 stub pipes form jake, the bends can be sourced elsewhere. Krem if you lighten the flywheel get everything balanced this should be done on any engine built. The mechanics hear don't tell you this they only put your engine together as best they can and bang 6 months later you are out of an engine, yes i know we don't have balancer in Jamaica but spend the money and check jake out. I am curious to see how well sandeep's engine cool after the modifications to the shroud.

5 blade cooling
 

what kind of performance does the 911 5 blade have? will this keep a 2056cc cool with a 96plate mesa with fan?

come on guys dont let this thread die.

Any updates lately??

The shroud with the mods to the back of the 911 fan is working great. The hottest temp I have to date is 361F on #4 at 17 psi, 5400 rpm in 4th.

The car runs awesome with the turbo with temps averaging around 320F while driving around town. On the highway they average about 340F with all cylinders within about 10F of each other.

The Megasquirt EFI really helps as well, as does the LC-1 because I can dial in exactly the A/F ratio I want. The EDIS helps as well because of the programmable ignition.

I really did not know what A/F ratio I was running with the 44IDF's and not exactly sure of the timing with the 050 Dizzy, because the temps I am getting with the EFI/EDIS/Turbo are close to what I had with the 44 IDF's/050 Dizzy/No turbo.

So overall, I am extremely happy because I KNOW I have a 911 shroud that cools well enough for me to run a turbo at 17 PSI :D

Engine is currently apart to fix a loose valve seat and is getting an overall refresh. Will be terrorizing the streets again in spring 2007:cool:

Sandeep

sandeep

I think I have a clua why the FAT shroud works well. Like the type 1 shroud, it guides the air left and right untill it dumps it onto the heads.

Here's a comparison of a different approach to mimic the original porsche air deflector.
Both are Remmele shrouds.
The blue shroud is actually an adaption of a Remmele shroud for an Ahnendorp machined case. However, the only 'remmele'touch is that it has a more flat (hollow actually) back side, intended to divert the air better to 2 and 4th cylinders.
The second one is an all original Remmele shroud (the carbon one). There the flat back is even more pronounced and it also has very distinct 'paths' to direct more air to 2 and 4th.
I have no conclusive data in the forms of temps on either tho. That will take time :o

http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/37856.jpg

http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/37855.jpg

Best regards,
Walter

Off the shelf, the FAT shroud was the worst shroud I tested for temperature delta, despite the drive ratio or amount of blades on the fan it always kept the same delta. I have seen #4 more than 150F hotter than #1 with that system and no mods made to it.

jake will you be any at all interested in developing the 911 shroud you have from joe ( god rest his soul ).

Yes, with some drastic changes to any other shroud ever completed before. I have two ideas right now that I just need time to work on.

I had planned on 2007 being the year i work on this, but its looking like our roller lifters and the Turbo development will take us clear through 2007..

I am still not ready for another cooling challenge really- it really is sucky work!

Great i will be hanging around. Wally how in hell does that remmelle carbon fiber shroud cool with that very flat surface the air meets on when it leaves the fan.

Beats me, but I am sure that form wasn't there by accident.

I guess it is just another way of trying to redirect the air 180 degrees for the 2 front cylinders instead of using a wider shroud and air deflectors like porsche did.

My other guess is that since shops only sell the new C2 style fans with Valeo (Rabbit-style) alternators which run in aftermarket fan housings (the only part of a porsche fan set up still available new through porsche is the curved fan itself, hence the aftermarket stuff), they had to make up for the not-listed-anymore porsche air deflector, which wouldn't fit a new housing anyway, by re-shaping the shroud itself...

Personally, I like a deep shroud with air deflectors better.

How well does your porsche setup cool.

Well enough for now. I dunno exactly as I have insufficient data to conclude anything since I also drive the bug very little these days. Not all 4 TC's have been installed yet and I only have 1 gauge...
Still experimenting with jake's advised type 1 under-cylinder tins, but simply changing them out for original tins is not an evening's work.
Spare time is limited; I'am not a shop...

I have an idea. I do hope jake can jump in here, if the fan can be positioned further away from where the breather tower is ( 1inch to 1.5inch ) and also positioned lower i do think that you will create the senario where 1 & 2 cylinder gets enoudh air also 3 & 4 would receive enough air.

It would help to move the fan aft. This creates two big issues:
1- It would cause decklid interferance
2- it would make for some real challenges with belt geometry.

Look at a 911 engine and note haw far the fan sits from the first two cylinders- its drastic and makes a huge impact.
Air doesn't like to bend 90 degrees.

It is interesting how after my test work was revealed how many shrouds have changd in some ways to benefit the 2-4 cylinders more. That didn't used to be a consideration ;-)

The Remmele carbon shroud is approximately 7 years old...

I was under the impression that it had been altered in the past couple of years?

I know that i have seen at least two different ones in the past few years.

This particular carbon shroud is actually from one of the first complete Remmele engines that he build and the picture of this (2,7) engine is the one that is still on his site.
That was before he had acces to his type 4-type 1 heads, so its a long time back...about 7 years.

Development of cooling shrouds is very old in germany by now. The old Käfer cup series made for a lot of development in type 4 durability for track racing back in those days (late 80's and early 90's). You may not know the half of it Jake, but thats ok, as you have initiated new interest for the type 4 and made your own new products, which is excellent for us T4 enthousiasts ;)

Jake i am still thinking. You are right if the fan is to be moved 1 or 1.5 inches away from breather tower it would definately have belt geometry issues a soulution may be to make a distribution block for the crank pulley ( something similar to what wallies friends are doing with the overhead cam engine ) to drive the crank pully but instead of belts a drive tang with key and keyway could be bolted to the end of the crank snut then the distribution block placed over it with the relocated crank pully lining up perfectly with the fan pulley. Wah lah.

Sandeep,

Is there any chance of getting pictures of the mods to the 911 fan.....?

Regards
063bug

Well, since I need to make my own shroud for the 2,7 anyways (its VERY wide and the Oettinger cylinders are quite some wider as well) and the case has been cut for the Ahnendorp system may many moons ago, I have started sculpting class:

Here's a picture of a RMB shroud with an even more pronounced 4th cylinder air path:

http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/43514.jpg

More pics in the next post:

Obviously this idea has worked better than the older BAS 'low' shroud, so I will 'use' this idea in my own 'mold':

http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/43502.jpg

http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/43504.jpg

http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/43505.jpg

http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/43513.jpg

I need to make a mold from this form later, then make a shroud and then cut that one up to make a wider one from it...Pfft lots of work ahead. Luckily its X-mas holiday and I can foul around a little.

Walter

This is version 2.0 :)

http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/43641.jpg

Yeah, I know what it looks like :p

The idea is to help the air make the 90 degree turn towards the heads and than again 90 degrees so that the air flows alongside the heads and air comes from the front (again, like original) and from above.
With this form I hope the air stays laminar and the heads that need more air get it in this way.
Also hope that overall cooling is better now the heads are more favoured for cooling :rolleyes:

Walter

hey Wally.... hows things looking in the development front???
This is one of those threads that I am keeping my eyes on!!!!!!

Actually very good, considering my limited time for this eleborate subject.
Due to lack of interest, I have continued the progress report on:
http://www.bug-talk.com/internationa...er=asc&start=0

911 shroud progress
 

Wallie,

How's it coming on the testing. I saw a post 4/29, but didn't know if you picked up any good ideas fromt he show. I am a big fan of the DTM, but love the look and sound of the 911 style. I have a sharpe and a bernie bergman and the sharpe cools the best, I think it is because the bergman spins so fast. Anyway are you thinking of making some of these for sale? I am interested.

Show? What show you mean?
Anyways, all worked out very well, but I am not intending to make any for thrid parties as the work would never pay for itself and I then I would also have to maken them 'nice' and idiot-proof and I really am not into that. I have enoygh work on my own projects, which is a lot more rewarding ;-)
It actually turned out more easy than I thought, but you need to find out what mods work and which don't...