I dont know what the F**K you are talking about Jake!
Do you have a persecution complex or something?
Why would you think that statement was about you?
All I said is that he doesnt have to spend $10,000 to have a reliable
motor. He could build a reliable T4 for $5000. It may not have all
the latest innovations, but it will still be a reliable motor.
*I hope that clears this up for you.


I never said I was an expert. I just said there are options. I researched
my options and had mine built by someone I thought was reputable and
would do a good job for a fair price.


I think you may want to consider calling me before you let it get to that.

I didn't appreciate you slamming me on STF forums either. That was
total BS and was uncalled for. You weren't even part of that thread,
nor was it about you, but you stuck your nose in it and told me to shup up!

Nah, I'd prefer to have a good old fashioned chat... Phone lines just don't give the true feeling of a statement IMHO!

Last time I checked I didn't give a damn what you appreciated. If I did I wouldn't have made that post on the STF.

Its not fair to the forum members here for us to hijack this thread- Lets take care of this offline.

Oh man where do I begin. Back in '99 I remember a local shop owner telling me he didn't consider a car a Volkswagen if it didn't run points, I also remember about that time era as well that Turbos were for "cheaters" mentality. Same thing with NOS. Now lets fast forward to 2005, pointless ignition is like having brand new points all the time, they do need to be continually adjusted, no rubbing blocks snapping off, and they don't weld themselves together. All in all they improve the VW. Go to a VW and see how many VW's are running Turbos, NOS....a lot, thats cause it makes them go faster. As far as I know Paradise Express still has the 4 cylinder world record, and its turbo'd.

Where am I going with this, simple if something makes our cars better then why have a closed mind about it. There is a limit to how much hp can be created in a aircooled engine reliably, and economically. So a smart man would look for alternatives and a wise man would not disregard the alternatives. What are our (aircooled) options for a high horsepower (greater than 200 hp) engine, ohc heads, 3.0L w/nickies, all of that costs big dollars. Whats the point of building these amazing machines if a local punk 16 year old's parents buy him a SRT-4, EVO, or a STI that out of the box will out perform us. So why not fight fire with fire.

Cool. I now have two possible choices. :)

Maybe its just me, but you like your cars, and i like mine. Theres things that i like and things i dont like. I think the thing that makes a VW a VW is that its so modular. You can put almost anything in it and its still going to be a volkswagen.
Theres more to the beetle than just an air cooled engine. What about that beetle smell? or the fenders and body lines? How about those damn floor pans and heater channels? In the end, its still going to be my car and im going to do whatever i choose to with it. If i want a volksrod, its going to be a volksrod, or baja, or GL, or restoration

I can assemble one of Jakes type 4 kits for you. Please do some looking at the difference between the Type 1 and Type 4. I think once you see the improvments made with the type 4 you will want one. The flywheel to crank joint, the thru bolts vs studs, torque curve, etc. Granted the cooling conversion is a bit more costly and the exhaust is just a little more but not as bad as it once was thanks to Jake and Tiger at A1. Jake is working on an even cheaper exheast that will still be made in the USA. :agree:

That header is 100% tested up now and ready to be mass produced.. It's about 1/2 the cost of the A-1 and effective (dyno proven) for engines up to 140 HP- but not beyond..

Dave would be the best person to assemble my kit. He has been around me and my shop enough to know what goes on and he was able to benefit from Brent and I peering over his shoulder on his first TIV build.

Best of all Dave makes his living keeping commercial aircraft in the air.. That attention to detail carrys over into everything that he works with, just like my aviation experience does...

Oasis,to clear things up on my post earlier...


yes you could buy one of the best motors money can buy for over $10,000,
but if you dont have that kind of money to spend for a motor like that or if
you dont need a motor like that, then there are alternatives.

You could spend less then that and either build one yourself, buy a kit from
Jake and have someone else build it or possibly buy either a stock T4 or
a built up T1 from another Supplier.



Jake, to clear things up from my post earlier...

When I said that this isnt rocket science, I was not referring to what
you are doing at your level of engine building. I was referring to building
or buying a GOOD T4 motor. What you are doing, is something that
most can not attain to. You are building the very best that money can
buy in the T4 world. Not everyone needs, wants or can afford that.
But I do understand that alot of science goes into what you are doing
and I am sure thats why it costs so much. Believe me, I respect you for what
you have done with the T4. Dont think my comments were a bash towards
your products.

I am sorry if you took it that way! :)

Does a split window with a type 4 engine in it have historical value? hahahahaha

or should i say, does a german look super have historical value? Most people on these forums dont give a flying F%#@ what their car is worth to a "true" enthusiast, whatever that is. They build the car for themselves, they build their car to what they want, not to what some stupid "historical value rule list of mods" tells them they can and cant do.

You forget, in many peoples eyes, A TRUE vw enthusiast likes NOS parts and og engine tin, OLDest bugs you can find, AND mods that werent factory are Taboo, thats historical value

Your on the wrong forums jake if you are a "True" vw enthusiast who is only into "historical" aspects of a car, i believe that is "cal-look" or the keep it stock forums hahah. German look is about making your car handle, stop, and go fast, all at the same time.

you make it sound like if subaru made a aircooled engine, it would make it valuable to a true vw enthusiast. bs.

your engines use a totally aftermarket cooling system(dtm) just like mine does. neither of which have any historical value.

-Ryan

I was wondering how you would feel about being conscripted into service. ;)

I have been looking and lurking about this since before I even bought my car. I will continue to do so. There may be other considerations for me but I wanted to keep this exercize on the simple side.

The cooling conversion should have been included in my hypothetical eight grand but at this point I am satisfied with the answers I have received. Until I have further questions, there is no sense in pushing or nitpicking this any further ... unless there is another option to be considered.

When I have a concrete budget, then the devil (me :rolleyes: ) will be in the details. No, I am not budgeting for concrete.

The exhausts I have seen that I would want aren't cheap. That goes for the Type 1 exhaust as well as the Type 4 exhaust.

The exhaust is obviously an important component to the engine itself. I have certain parameters that are important to me as well. I purposely kept the exhaust a separate issue and out of the budgetary constraints because there are a lot more exhausts I wouldn't consider than there are that I would.

I will continue to lurk, look and learn on that front, too. :agree:

I think a 2056 with 40 Dells, econ. exhaust, DTM shroud somewere around 120 HP with a nice fat/flat torque curve should fit your budget and needs very well. But for a few dollars more (exhaust mainly) you could go 2270. For me,,,, You can have the big HP numbers. Give me some big torque numbers and a flat torque curve that gives me power down low. How often do you drive at RPM's above 5,250?

Every time i take it out, it gets buzzed to 8K. Either stretching out a gear, or playing with the throttle getting it sideways around corners. :D

I love the BUZZ of the RPM's. Must have been the Kawasaki Ninja (14,000rpm), or my Rotax 2-stroke 100cc rotary valve (22,000rpm), go-kart. Those toys have corrupted me, everything now seems slow. So now i need to get pushed in the seat while its screaming! A low revving "torque monster" doesn't do it for me. Now, how can i get my TDI Golf to 7,000rpm? :laugh:

I know the feeling :D

Ok,,, that is how some of us drive but most do not. I have seen some folks have an 8000 rpm red line and shift at 5000 when they are on it. As far as the Daily driver goes,,, most folks are under 5250 rpm most of the time.
I still remember my 2 stroke Kawi street bike from way back. It would spool like a MoFo.

Oasis,

My best opinion is go T-4. And Dave would be my choice to build the engine. Great guy with great attention to detail. :agree:

Even though I'm going Suby, I don't hate aircooleds. I'll probably stay with an Aircooled in my '72 standard when I GL it.. someday.

Just my 2cent. :)

As you probably remember, we cut off my stock 1600 T1 on Dyno Day at 5,000. Not having a tach (no new gauges 'til last), I would guess by sound I have taken it to 5,000 maybe three to five times at most.

My Super shares daily driving duties with an '02 Cabrio. It redlines at 6,200 and I did that exactly once. 5,250? Maybe five, seven times. I don't drive my wife's '02 Golf TDI that often but I guarantee I haven't pushed it above 5,000 more than twice.

When my wife and I were first married, she owned an RX-7. I understand it is a different animal being a rotary, but I did not like its power curve. Don't get me wrong, it was fun to drive and totally defied its reputation as being an oil-burning unreliable powerplant.

Driving the rotary Mazda was a bit of an adventure in the sense it did not have the suddenness I wanted if I wanted to make a break for it. Once it revved, I was fine. There was indeed a certain thrill to shift at high RPM's. Nevertheless, it forced me to anticipate extra early or to come from behind in a pinch.

The only time I want to "punch it" from a standstill, is when I need to be in another lane in a short amount of time. Having a high revver would be nice to get ahead of "the competition" but in reality if I'm against my match, I just slip into second place for the lane change.

My desire for "instant grab" at more moderate RPM's are due to the two most common situations I am in where I live. If I am on the winding roads that are common in the suburbs (not residential streets), I like to test the car's and my limits. Even with my venerable two-point-slow and my Super, I have embarrassed many cars who cannot take the curves as well as me and many drivers who have to get revving to play catch-up. By that time I have encountered another curve and creating even more space between me and Mr. Frustrated.

The other situation is on interstates and other major arteries of speed limits of 45 and higher. In this situation, I am typically surrounded by an assortment of goofballs with differing and conflicting agendas. Here, I like to create some distance between me and the agitated pack. Again, my stock Cabrio does the trick because it gives me an instant burst. My wife's TDI actually quite amazing and will leave a similar Golf with a 1.8T behind because I don't even need to downshift. It's grab and go.

Naturally, the TDI's advantage over a 1.8T or a Japanese high revver is short-lived. It does give me the lead, though, and it's not even chipped or anything. If I have open road ahead of me, the Cabrio and TDI will do 90 MPH without complaint and will do 110 or more for sustained amount of time if I need to prove a point. (I'll be the first to admit when that situation occurs, I'd be adlibbing to come up with what point I am exactly proving.)

Meanwhile back at the Super, I want to be able to "punch it" while already rolling regardless if it is coming out of a curve, getting out of congestion, or put some distance between me and some nitwit. I want to be able to do 90 without complaint, and have 105-110 quite attainable.

Top speed? I only ever had one car I pushed to its very top speed. I had a '69 Mustang with a modest 302 (to keep my teenage insurance rates equally modest) on a Sunday night during the oil embargo of the early '70's that I had wound up to 120 MPH on I-695. I was literally the only sole on the road.

So, top speed for my 1302 is unimportant as long as it meets the other criteria.

(BTW, my personal top speed is 135 MPH but the Torino I was in had a fraction more left in it. The Grand Prix I was against was still pulling away, too. Ah, to be young and stupid again ...)

Top quarter mile time? Unimportant. I am quite certain if the above criteria is met, I will do just fine. I may not win but I will still do just fine.

^^ Sounds like somebody talking about a 600 and a literbike....

Good thread...just wanted to give it a bump...

WoW :eek:
What a debate
Nice compare of prices and motors! Suby? Drove all STI's till now, even the newest one on Adria track in Italy. Suby is glorious car, which performes exactly like every good driver like. It's ideal for european roads, but I would never put his engine in my bug. NEVER. It has 280 HP from 2,5 litre, and, believe it or not, that car has many Porsche parts made in Germany! Yes, You read well, just like some things on new 911's has "made in Japan" sign. Guess who's making them!!
Suby in My bug?? Hmmmm...
It's like putting someone's else's butt on my girlfriend! That "big-butt" is f%$#ing great on other girl, but not on my babe! I like her as she is. If, and when I make a wish of big butt, I'll change her for new model ( :laugh: ), or get one to drive daily. But I'll spare current babe of plastic surgery. Well, fitness sounds good to me, so even the current girl can be "bigger-butted", so what if that demands more sacrifies, money and time?

If I send her to do plastics, one part of her will be stiff, the other will not, there is allways a risk of finding strange material everywhere in the bed... And it doesn't get older and older in the same time! One thing gets softer and softer, the other allways stay stiff, so I would end up with something that looks like...well...I won't be rude :D

It's same with Bug's.

Oasis, do as You like, I would reccomend You some good surgents, but few tousend miles away :D

Cheers people!

That's exactly what I'm looking for. Any advices on which aircooled engine I could use? Would a 1915cc or 1968cc do the job?????

I'm ba-a-a-a-ack. :o

I still have the two possibilities swishing about in my noggin -- a 2056 or 2270 T4 built by NO_H2O and a 2110 T1 built by one of three suggested sources. Since my last post on this subject, two other possibilities came to mind.

Well, actually, I want to be told the pros and cons of whether they are indeed possibilities.

I didn't want to hijack other threads. Please remember the stipulations in my $8,000 question -- the main two being the cost must include labor and I do not have the facility or the know-how to perform the labor myself.

The first is a Vanagon (USA name) engine converted to air-cooled. I owned a Vanagon for six years and loved it. I am talking about the engines used between 1983 and 1991; not the air-cooled predecessor T4 engine which I understand has issues of its own.

The second is a Corvair six-cylinder engine.

Off the top of my head, it would seem that the price issue and the hp/torque issue would be met as potential "pros."

The potential downside of the Corvair engine is it may not fit. I am buying a magazine/manual about the Corvair engine. It has an article in it about conversion for VW usage. I fear that it will fit Type 4 cars, dune buggies and Bajas more easily than a GL 1302 that doesn't want to headbutt onlookers with its appearance.

The ironic potential downside to the Vanagon engine is the fact that if I ever own another Vanagon, I will probably stuff a TDI in it. Of course in that case, I would be keeping the radiator. The other potential downside is finding someone to do the conversion. There is a three-year old thread here and an article of unknown vintage at home which will require my reading a few more times.

Any thoughts? Am I still at the original two possibilities?

Vanagon egine converted to aircooled (type 5) = lots of machine work and will more than likely cost far more than a type 4 in the end. Jake started one and gave up on it some time later.
Corair 6 - Perfomance parts are fewer and farther between. Any emgine that turns backwards and has an odd number of cam lobes it too freaky for me. Fitting it and trans adapting may be a problem too.
A 2056 type 4 can net you 130 hp and last far longer and have a wider/flater torque curve than a 2110 type 1. A 2270 would push 170+ hp at an extra $ for headwork, etc.
Just my 2 cents.

Haha, what made you think of this 'possibility' :laugh:
Did you get the Bill Fisher book(let)? I ordered one through ebay as well,but haven't received it yet....
I think too that it will not really fit a 1302 or any other stock bug engine space. It could maybe, but would include some new modifications that no-one has ever done (thats why I like it :D ), but that will also exclude it for your application...

The type 5 is still for gearheads that also wrench themselves, as there are too few being made IMHO. A total engine from Rocky Jennings for instance may be interesting to ask a quotation for :rolleyes:
Asking doesn't cost you and it ends all speculation about price differences there may or may not be....

Regards,
Walter
(who doesn't build engines for anybody)

Yeah, I was afraid of that.

I was afraid of that, too.

That's the booklet! I saw it on my typical eBay search at the same time that other thread got started. I figured it was a long shot but at six cylinders the need to go beyond stock might have been minimal and at least worth a look.

I do read the technical posts even if I am the resident technoklutz. :rolleyes: If our next house has a garage, I will get some stock beater and learn on it with the hopes of being able to apply it to the car(s) that really matter to me. :)

Afraid of being conscripted? :laugh:

I am not sure what 'conscripted' means, but I just wanted you to know that I have nothing to sell... :rolleyes:

Conscription is compulsory enrollment -- like being drafted into the military.

When this thread first started, different ideas were bandied about. After some debating, it appeared to me the only option within my grasp at that time was one made by vujade (who I had the pleasure of meeting in person back in November). His suggestion was a 2110 T1.

Other suggestions seemed to require work beyond my scope or anyone else I could commission. The 2056 and 2270 T4 suggestions seemed to be out of the pricepoint I had selected; that is until zen "volunteered" NO_H2O (both of whom I also had the pleasure of meeting in person last November) to build one of Massive Type IV's engines for me.

I saw your addendum to your sig and thought you might have wanted a bit more distance between you and me than what the Netherlands and Baltimore had to offer. ;)

All in good fun.

"My stock engine gives me max torque at low RPM's and has a nice flat torque curve throughout the powerband. I like that. I just want more power. I want a trouble-free engine with regular maintenance. I want durability."

Wow 5 pages-and I read each post. I want the same thing as oasis. No race car, a daily driver with a little more. I think the answers depend on how much more power do you want. I'm sort of thinking going to a 1776 or maybe 1800 something, duel carb, upgraded exhaust and call it a day. Stay stock transmission, same case. Even without doing any work myself, well under $8000, you think?

I've installed almost everything Topline sells and 17" Porsche wheels. :D

well after 5 pages of enjoyable reading i thought i would chuck in my thoughts ,but just to clear up , im no engine guru .
1, for a daily driver 130-150 bhp is more than adequate t1,will do this cheaper but t4 ultimatly will give better service (both if serviced correctly will give many years of service )
2, if like me you enjoy adding to the performance of your car in a winter strip down and it does not have to be a daily driver then maybe t1 is the way to go, there are many more performance parts available at reasonable money.
3 if you want big power 250-400bhp t1 or t4 ,here is no cheap way of doing this you have to have deeeep pockets although t1 would be thew cheaper option
i suppose it depends on what you want the car for, i know i have gone off track a little but there you go
cheers jon :D

Oh, no doubt. I've driven a 1776 before and was ready to buy a Type 34 with one until the seller backed out. It is definitely peppier ... peppyer ... more peppy ... uh, has more pep :rolleyes: than the rocko stocko. Plus, I have not heard one person ever give a bad review to a well constructed 1776.

If I had a garage, my first endeavor would have been to rebuild a 1600. If that went well and I felt confident with what I had learned, a 1776 would probably have been Project Two for my learning curve. This is still my plan should we ever move -- it just won't include my current Super.

Since my Super is a co-daily driver and my first modified car, I am reaching for a little more greed in the pep department. A 1776 is plenty to do 70 MPH all day long. It is just that doing 70 on the interstates from New York to Florida -- my domain -- isn't necessarily plenty.

When the time comes, I need to decide how much money I can devote to the project which will be further complicated by the selling of our Westy and the purchasing of a car (Scirocco, maybe?) for our daughter. The $8k was a guesstimate. If the sell/buy goes well and the stocker continues to perform reliably, I may delay the $8k decision until it becomes a $11k certainty. All of this has to be decided within the confines my head.

speedy's point number two is enviable. Maybe some day with some future Super or other air-cooled ... As for 250-plus horsepower, I'm afraid that might be too much for me in a bug. Maybe, my Cabrio would like that instead.