Thx guys! It was great to be out on a track again.
Mark, where you hear it climb in the revs suddenly very soon, is where it spins the rear wheels...

Hi Wally

There was a post on here about bolt porn, the sound of your car is aural porn, love it.

Steve

tnx Steve! Here's another run I found from that day:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MF7GaaDzVA

Did a new dynorun today with same sort of problem as before: running lean up top...
Its not too small injectors, but since I can log fuel pressure as of yesterday, it showed that FP gradually deminished from 3,5 bar to 2,5 bar at 1,3 bar of boost. Even though I have a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator!
Lambda was approaching 1.0 again...and misfires occured.
I even changed the fuel filter on the dyno and gave a bit more max fuel correction (30 instead of max 20% before). Even though the run didn't misfire this time, it still ran lean (lambda 0.95+ but just rich enough not to misfire and the run ended in 418 hp up top (max rpm 7200). Atm, I think its too small a wire I used for both fuel pumps.

This was at 1,3 bar. I never got to my intended 1,6 bar...

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...4.jpg~original

:goodjob::clap::clap::clap:
Now get that fuel problem fixed and make a 450 run ;)

Yeah, that is kinda the idea Paul ;)

Doing great Walter
 

Ah, Hi Walter:o, at what point will you be happy? Now don't get mad Walter, I'm in your corner. Is this engine a test bed/mule engine that can or ment to be sacrificed? I'd really like to see you just loving what you have done, thus the name Mythbuster. Enjoy your ride, nice work.

No worries Francelle, I hear you and your not the first one saying this ;)
There is no fixed limit to where I will be 'happy' as I really wouldn't know where the limit is at the moment. I also do not intentionally want to sacrifice the engine either mind you. If you were experiencing the things/data I do, you would also feel much more easy with the power levels surely. Its a step by step exploration of the possibilities so you will.

Case in point: At this moment we got 355 hp at just 1.0 bar boost and 418 with lambda approaching 1.0 (!), so lets round that off to 420 if fuel would have kept going. That's a 65 hp gain in just 0.3 bar. Therefore I see crazy power if I could have the fuel system handle 1.6 bar...:rolleyes: There doesn't seem to be any restriction to go there as the engine has run at 1.6 bar (and over) before.
All this with just 0.500" valvelift and moderate duration on a 2.2 engine with stock head castings, stock crank, rods and type 4 case.
When your this far involved as I am, you just constantly 'see' new areas that can be improved upon. To get there, you just not copy what you read on other vw aircooled related fora ;)
Tuning this far also brings out and enhences you own weaknesses and my weakness for now seems to be the wiring...:o

Considering that you do all the work yourself with little or no "professional" help the results and ghe evolution process of this engine earns the highest respect imho. Keep up the great work Wally! One way to find out if your wiring is too small would be to measure the amperage at the pump during a dyno run.If the amps are low (due to the wire being too small) the pump would run too slow.The specs of the pump i.e. on the box or papers should show how many amps the pump pulls.You should have that as a minimum value.

Not too much credits to me pls Mark, give them to the type 4 engine instead ;)
The 044 pump alone can pull 15A and the low pressure Carter feed pump probably between 5 and 10A as well. I just had time yesterday to change the wiring to much bigger (3x) and put and extra relais in the trunk next to the battery, feed straight from battery plus its own fuse. Short test drive revealed the same low fuel pressure (from 3,5 bar to 2,5 bar FP) on boost instead of rising with boost... not good still.
Tested FPR again and with air pressure from the air compressor, fuel pressure rose nicely while engine was idling. So the FPR-rising-rate works, it just doesn' t kick in for some reason.
My remaining thought is that the boost reference line for the FPR is not giving it boost. I have that boost reference line Tee'd from a line where it also feeds the boost control relais. Since that one is now circulating with the top and bottom port of the external gate, maybe the boost reference line looses pressure when waste-gate kicks in(?).
At least thats my latest thought, so I have changed the T to another location and hope to test it somewhere this week...

That's possible but if your FP is decreasing at 1.3 bar and you were hoping for 1.6 then I am assuming that you have your EBC set above 1.3 bar correct? So it would only steal pressure when the WG opens and not before?
Also, you didn't have this problem before at higher boost levels.Maybe your alternator is too weak to support the increased load that the pump and injectors are demanding? Just an idea, but I think the problem is actually elsewhere.Does your ECU control the fuel pump also? Is it possible that you may need a larger or an additional feed pump?

Runs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97SNAq1e9gY

and warm-up on dyno (turbo whistle):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfBpkJnZgbc

Boost senitive regualtor
 

Walter, you are running a boost senitive fuel regulator arn't you? Is you fuel system looped? I have seen boost senitive regulators in a looped fuel system where the fulel pump pumps the same pressure all of the time, as boost demand are needed. It is the responsibility of the regulator to up fuel pressure. Amp and wire size can come into play if the pump is worn and tired, thus the need for more amps. Can you ECM log fuel pressuee and you not at what boost pressure?

Your car is an animal, 418hp and still going! Hopefully you can sort out the fuel problem soon, sounds like you're on the right track with the boost tee.

As for the fuel pump, I believe you might be nearing it's limits. When I calculated my fuel needs at 100% duty cycle i got 3.8bar (55psi) flows about 230 LPH from the 044 pump and with 4x750cc injectors is 3 liters a minute or 180 LPH, which leaves me a good buffer. IIRC, you had 4x1000 injectors, 4 LPM or 240 LPH but the pump running at 3.5 bar can only supply around 237 LPH. Again, that's assuming 100% duty cycle but it looks like you may need more fuel in the future if you keep going.

Edit: That thought was half baked it seems, I just got back from Vegas so give me a break :)

I forgot to factor in the rising rate FPR, so here's a couple of quick numbers.
yours: initial fuel pressure 3.5 bar + 1.3 of added boost = 4.8 bar from the pump which is about 210 LPH and you need 237 LPH (again assuming 100% duty cycle)
mine: initial fuel pressure 3.8 bar + 1.7 of added boost = 5.5 bar from the pump which is about 175 LPH and I need 180 LPH (again assuming 100% duty cycle)

damn, I guess we will both need more fuel ;)

Good post Humble!
I actually had similar thoughts, but some things I see IRL at the car just don't add up for me atm: I still do not see _any_ rise in fuel pressure when its comming on boost.
Did another test run last night and there's no increase in FP over the base 3.5 bar when on boost. On the contrary, FP still drops a bit to 3.25 or 3.0 bar with ~ 1 bar boost.
That was with the rerouted boost reference line.
Remember that I tested the FPR at idle with applying boost and it worked then, also matched by the log reading. So the FPR and the fuel pressure sensor read accurately (enough anyways).

With the better wiring (I assume I now have a few Volts more), the test drive last night actually showed the problem to be even worse, even at lower rpm and boost I experienced misfires from lean spikes (log showed very uneven lambda and high spikes).

My thoughts now are that the whole catch tank may be more of a restriction then a help, so I will by-pass that tomorrow and see if a direct feed from a full tank will help.
I am really puzzled so far...

A few thoughs to be helpful.

If you can set up a voltmeter to measure the volts across the pump it will confirm if you have a problem with wiring (or a connector). If the volts drop across the pump when it is flowing lots of amps, there is another source of electrical resistance between the pump and the Bat/alternator.

I'm also guessing you have a genuine 044 from a known seller? Apparently there are copies on Ebay which look good but don't perform.

Is the supply to the pump (pipe sizes and tank port) big enough? A fuel pressure sensor at the 044 input would show if there is always positive pressure at the input. If the 044 has to suck the fuel at high flow rates, the output pressure would drop.

good luck!

Thanks Bruce!

I just removed the catch tank and Carter feed pump and now I can maintain my target lambda all the way to redline under 20 psi of boost. Now that was fun :D

You were probably close with the feed to the 044 not being optimal. The intake line is 1/2" internal from the tank to the feed pump, so plenty big, but entrence into catch tank is only 7mm internal, so almost half that size. For the low pressure Carter pump probably a little too much of a restruction to get to full flow.
Feed to the 044 itself from the catch tank is 1/2" or about -12 iirc, but if there's only one restriction...

Now the 044 sucking straight from the 1/2" from under the tank works well, but at higher boost, the rising rate pressure suffers a little and doesn;t follow the boost pressure quite. That leads me to believe the 044 is somehow running a little on the edge in my set-up.
For now it will do, but maybe a second pump may be wise in the long run.

Thanks for thinking along all!

Glad to hear you found the problem, Wally.Will you modify the catch tank and continue to use it or is there no need for it?
I'm exited now what you pull on the dyno - then again I might get jealous:D

Good question. Right now I have no hurry to change it. There is a need for it however when I start circuit driving it again. At Spa-francorchamp and on the Ring, when the fueltank level only dropped to half full, I already started having fuel deprivation in long high spee corners... that was/is my reason for the catch tank.

I hope to run one or two Time Attack events, but those are only 20 minutes track time, so I might just be ok for now till end of season? We'll see.
Maybe end of season a dynorun again if everything is still in one piece by then :rolleyes:

What fuel pressure sensor and gauge do you have?

When I was having miss fires under load I needed to check fuel pressure. My only option at the time was a long hose from rear to front, and a gauge taped to the windshield. That is a bit unnerving!

s

I don't have a gauge, I just run a VDO 0-5 bar oil press. sensor just after the pump inline and log the values :cool:. In hindsight the 0-10 bar would have been more appropiate, but I haven't run out of range yet. Unfortunately...
DTA has already the VDO sensor's calibrations as stock in the ecu, amongst many other press. sensors and I just have to click the right one and it knows what and how to measure.

Double post sorry

Hi,

I keep following your post as sort of a dream that I'll never go for (doesn't fit my usage of my beetle) but still, I'm impressed.

About the Fuel pressure, I run a CB Quicktune kit on my 2007 engine and I also have issues with the fuel pressure that I don't understand. All I know from the logs is that fuel pressure (3bar / 45psi) at idle tends to drop quickly after the engine has been running for a few minutes. I get the feeling the fuel pressure regulator aren't all that reliable but I have no certainty.
I have done some testing, it has nothing to do with angle of the FPR or temperature, it just happens...

Maybe you could try changing the FPR and see if it solves your problem.

Seb

Maybe the feed line from the tank to the pump is too small? If there´s not enough volume,you won´t be able to hold the required pressure.

Whats a 'known seller' worth these days huh?
The info in this link I recently found comparing a fake chinese copy 044 and a real one was really helpfull.
Just for the record: I have a real Bosch 044 ;)

http://trolltuner.com/?p=692

Wally, your car is absolutely my inspiration..

Thanks man!

Since installment of the 25,5mm torsion bars I have felt some severe trembling of the wheels when doing a burn-out on a less watered surface.
The extra brace from fork to cage didn't make a difference either, so I concluded it must be my now 20+ year old Bilstein gas shocks not up to the task of controlling my thicker torsion bars.

As Santa Pod is rapidly approaching as well as Time Attack in june, I opted for the shocks that Porsche delivers with the M030 option afaik on the 944T: Koni yellow-Sport shocks. They are a safe bet that they will match the torsion bars, are oil and gas filled and single adjustable.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...onigeel001.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...onigeel002.jpg

You crack me up!!! 400hp and 20yo shocks, you are a nut!:lmao:

Jason

Hi Wally

I have the same 944 Konis for my bug. Is the steel section around the shock base for a sway bar?

Steve

you could of got the billys rebuilt. konis are a good chocie but i allways try and go with bilstiens, i'm a rally man at hart.

You're right about the nut part anyhow :lmao: but the 20 year old Bilsteins were still in very good condition, but probably out of their spec range atm.
If it aint broke....right? :D
Bilstein and Koni are both quality products and usually last a lifetime.

but you may have been right though that it was a little overdue to replace them. I just always have wanted to go to coil-over after these, but am/were still on the fence about what and how. It just could not wait any longer now.

Steve: yes, they are for the aussie-made Whiteline sway bar attachment ;)

Rob: The Bilsteins are not worn or anything, but just could not cope the stiffer sway bar imo. I don;t think you can upgrade the valving on those? Or can you?

The only thing I would have wished is the attachment eyes would have been nicer if they could have been a uni-ball joint top and bottom. Someday I hope someone thinks of a way to put that into these Koni's.

Funny thing was, I ordered these with Paragon products in the US and these Holland-made shocks were cheaper there including transport then that I would have ordered them here...I had a very hard time ordering these over here anyways, so ordering them online was easier and faster after all too.
Gotta love the internet.

Bilstein UK used to be able to rebuild shocks. They tested on a dyno, drained the oil, changed all the seal and checked the rod. Re-valving was an option too. However, I don't know if they still offer this service and not all units can be rebuilt.

There is also a customising/motorsport service at Bilstein (de?) and can be contacted via +49 (0) 2333-791-4444

i wouldn't want to run uni-ball on a street car, even more so with the mileage you do. very harsh and they dont last long with the dirt on the roads.
I'm with you on the coil over on the rear, i dont think its a upgrade. only way of doing it imho is the way j-sport have done it on there race car.

I would have to disagree,sorry.If you do a lot of offroading,then eventually the uni-ball will wear out and become sloppy,but it wasn´t designed for such use.I see many cars here that use uni-ball set ups,not just bugs as "daily drivers" with no problems at all.Some like the uni-ball set up from Remmele or MBT and some don´t for various reasons,that´s fine,it´s not everone´s cup of tea.If you never wash your car,then dirt and grime may become an issue eventually,but the uni-ball rod ends are pretty tough - I see it everyday on aircraft where rod ends are used everywhere.

I think the key is to use the rubber boots over the uni-balls with plenty of lube inside them for a street car..

Thanks, Good points! I'll see how it goes with these and let you know ;)
Have a great WE!

Actually, koni does make uniball equipped shocks but they are double adjustable racing spec :) The 2800 series are the cheap end and pretty damn nice but I don't know what they cost off hand (probably not cheap).

Hopefully the m030 shocks work well for you, when I tried them on my lightened car I found they were too stiff.

Hey Wally,

finally got to see your car up close in the flesh - love it. only saw your first run though! crackin car - it's been an inspiration for me building my own! Shame i didnt get to meet you

Deano

Wally ran a 11.48 his PB fastest car in DKR at the moment

cheers andy

11.48 from a turbo typ4 with 911 cooling a true myth buster.

Hi Deano,
Yes, pity indeed. There was plenty of time on sunday, but a very large compound and a lot of people there as well ;)

http://www.big-bang.co.uk/2011photos/bb11dj-0703.jpg

Tnx for the kudos! It was fun and thats what its all about.