Dipstick tube
 

Zen,

When the fan gets here, I will install it and see what I need to do to the tube. I think I will gently bend it so the fan fits and then use an automatic tranny dipstick (GM car ?) cut to fit because it is flexible.

Sandeep

Zen, that was actually chromoly pushrod material, for it to work the case needs to be drilled with a letter "S" bit, not advisable if the engine is already together.

Hello. Sandeep, have you purchased or located your fan ring/fan/alternator set up yet?. I'll be purchasing a Fat system for my 2.6 ltr. ; I have a late model bug decklid on my 71 super beetle, so I hope that it will fit properly as in the first pictures posted on this topic.
I called Greg at Fat regarding this shroud set up. I asked which fan I would need for this shroud. He told me that any 911 fan assembly exept the 3.6 ltr. would fit. Do you know what the diameter/size would be for the correct fan??. He also said that the fan required should not have the curved fan blades. If you happen to know what part #'s would work, I would appreciate that a lot. I will probably try to source my fan set up from wrecking yards in Los Angeles.
Please keep us posted with your project. It looks really nice. I can't wait to get my shroud.

Take care,

Eddie.

www.germandreams.com

here is the info from earlier in the thread. more info there too. check page 4.

:) If I am not mistaken, that ring shroud number corresponds to the larger diamter 260-mm fan. I do not have my information with me but I can tell you that the smaller 245-mm waqs not as widely used and was used a great deal with the racing powerplants. If you place the fans next to each other for comparison, the difference would greatly and easily be evident since the hub sections are identical and the 245 fan blades do not extend radially as much as the 260 blades. I'll see if I can post some information later. What is required by some of these kits is to machine the outer diameter of these rings. An already weakened and possibly fractured ring will fail structurally if this is done since some of the ribbing structural details casted around the perimeter of the ring are removed and the sections are thinned as a result. If you are going this route it's ok as long as you get a good ring and try to get it NDT'd (Non-Destructive Testing) to ensure it is good. I have several rings at home, let me know if you need any measurements compared to part numbers. Good luck!:haveadrin

BTW, the later 3.6 12-blade fans, even thought the bottom ring profile is the same as the previous, will not fit since the assembly is much deeper and the alternator and fan spin independently via a shared axis and double pulley system (with different pulley ratios). The crank also has two pulleys of different diameters. the rear of the assembly incorporates an additional small fan to cool the alterantor inners. If you are creative, you can make part of it work--I am doing that currently with one of these assemblies (It is a pain in the a** ;):silly: :takethat:

Porsche fan
 

I just had the fan/alt/ring shipped late last week. I hope it will be here within the next few days. I'll post pics as soon as I get it out of the box and on the engine !

I also ordered my oil cooler setup... 96 plate Mesa with fan & 180deg switch, 180 deg oil thermostat and plumbing.

I'm working on ducting right now because I don't want 180deg air blowing around the engine ... going with NACA ducts and a box for the cooler and then ducting to take the heat away from the engine. I'm working on making it look trick, and like something you would find on a race car.

Zen,

You beat me to the BAS... I guess you bought it in between my first and second email to the seller ! :reallysad

Looks like you'll be doing a tech article on the install ! :hehehe:

Sandeep

Re: Porsche fan
 

doh.:eek: looks like i may have stepped on two toes there (you and vujade). sorry. i was buying this week anyway, saw the post and hit him with an email.

i am having my fan powdercoated this week. i will send some pics as i get them. i am going gloss black. this guy is top notch if anyone needs a referal. he is the guy that jake is using for his stuff.

looks like i am heading over to pillow's this weekend and chigger is coming over from NC. i am bringing my longblock over to finish it up. just need linkage now.

Thanks for the replies!. I began searching for my fan set up. Hopefully I won't break the bank. As far as my oil cooling set up goes, I plan on running a front mounted oil cooler ( RX-7 or Mercedes). I plan on using the A/C condenser housing installed by the dealer. It uses two pulling fans. I plan on doing a similar set up as yourself Sandeep. It'll use a thermostatically controlled sandwich plate adapter, and a thermostatically controlled fan switch. I'm not sure if it should turn the fans on @ 210 deg. or 180 deg...
Anyways, I should be ordering the shroud pretty soon. Hope to see some more pics from you guys soon.

Thanks,

Eddie.

Thermocouple placement
 

OK,

I'm wiring up my gauges this weekend (VDO oil P&T and CHT and proper senders).

The CHT thermocouple mounts under the spark plug. I'm going to mount it under #4 plug because the concensus is that 911 cooling pushes more air to the back of the shroud than the front, so the front pair of cylinders (rear of car) should run hotter.

I will then get some temp readings ... and then transfer the thermocouple to #3 spark plug to get a comparison.

Anything else that should be done ? Consider this an experiment with results that will be shared here for everyone.

Sandeep

Sandeep, did you notch the ridge around the plug hole for the sending unit tang? It will fit much better if you do. I am set up with CHT senders under all 4 plugs going to a rotary switch so I can monitor all cyls. Not much more money but alot more info on what is going on.
ken

jake mentioned a company on some thread somewhere, STF or here (REALLY need to find that because i am having a hard time finding the same info on the web), called Westech. They make aircraft gauges to your specs. they have a circular or square gauge they can build with all four CHT's in one gauge. pretty sweet. that is NOT the low cost solution though. :) but not real expensive as i recall.

someone let me know if you find the site page with the gauge build info.

Thanks for the heads up Ken. I will do that. I understand what you are doing with the 4 thermo's. I just want to be sure that when I'm WOT on the back straight, the heads stay about 350 - 375.

I have a datalogger that I used on my old 125cc race kart. Digitron is the name... it measured RPM, CHT, Water Temp, and Exhaust temp. Cool thing was, it would record the peak values for each and after the race, you could look at the graphs.

You couldn't read it while racing (last thing you want to do in a kart @ 100 mph is take your eyes off the road.)

I hope to use the gauges to make sure the engine is holding up and to make me confident in the systems I have chosen to cool my engine. Once I'm comfortable with that, then I can concentrate on winning races !

Sandeep

sandeep, questions for you:

1. when mounting the pulley, did you just cut off the stem that was used to index the fan? since the three bolts are offset indexing is not a problem with it removed.

2. did you remove the four bolts on back around the crank that used to hold the shroud?

Zen,

Yup, I used a dremel and trimmed off the little stub for the pulley crank because the 3 holes in the fat pulley are offset.

I'm not sure of the 4 bolts you are talking about. I did remove 4 studs around the crank pulley at would interfere with the pulley belt. Are these the ones ?

Sandeep

Sandeep, have you received your fan yet?? I'd be interested in seeing some more pics. BTW, in your instructions from FAT, does it mention if you have to use the tins that go under the cylinders? Either T1 or T4 style...Jake says that those tins back up the air in the shroud even more than if it didn't have them!! What are your plans for that issue??
Good luck,

Eddie.

www.germandreams.com
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/eduardobrown/index.html

stock TIV is only good for a stock TIV cooling system, the air direction has everything to do with it.

Thats why the TIII Tins on a TI engine don't work either..If it worked better VW would have used them.

Jake, so you would not use the tins under the cylinders? In your experience, does the airflow reach the lower part of the cylinders eventually?. I know & appreciate your views on 911 style set ups even though you personally don't like them. Since I'm going with 103's need the feedback on this issue. Know what I mean?. Hopefully down the road I'll be able to shell out the buck$ for the nickies.

Take care,

Eddie.

I asked Oliver about under cylinder tin a while ago. He told me that the German tuners use type 4 under cylinder tin with no problems.
ken

Ken,
To add to that, they do not only use them with 'no problems', but its use is regarded mandatory.
Walter

They obviously never tested it back to back on the same engine and saw the power changes or the difference in the cylinder temperatures..

I have.

so do you end up with a hot spot underneath the jugs or is there an edy of sorts that cools underneath? i had just been assuming that the tins we a must. glad this came up as a discussion point.

Cylinder tin
 

Remarkable Jake, what would be the reason for the higher temperature when the tin is left out, since the tin has an edge, that scoops up air which would otherwise flow through the engine and is lost? Now the scooped air is redirected back to the underside (middle) of the cylinders, which in turn should provide better cooling!
I'am confused. Please help us out Jake!
Walter

Yes, use the TINS, but not the TIV tins. I use TI tins for this...

Believe what you want, but the tin on every single upright engine that has left my shop since 1997 has had these tins, ever heard anyone complain about their engine running hot?

The TIV tin is made to create a restriction, as the air blows over the cylinders horizonatlly, instead of verticaly down over the cylinders...

Believe what you want, German tuners don't know everything just because they are in Germany, and I don't know everything either, but I have the data to prove what I'm saying, all from the same engine same day, same dyno and same loads. Do they?

Zen, I'll even show it to you next time you come here.

thanks for expounding on that with some more detail, jake. that makes more sense. i think we were all under the impression that you were recommending NO tin. makes more sense now.

shoot me an email and let me know when is a good time to come up.

Well, to be perfectly honest Jake, I don't think they have.
Thanks for the explaination.

Just to be clear on the issue for my (engines) sake: Do you use the same T1 tin on an upright cooling as you use with a porsche axial fan set-up?

Zen, maybe you can make a (sneek) picture of the tin mod, if that's ok with Jake of course, since it is his development.

Thanks,
Walter

unrelated, here are some pics that i found on the net of another FAT install on a bug. sandeep, i will email these to you as well.
first of two.

two of two

...
 

Just a few questions, Jake. Do you used heat indicator tape or a few more temperature senders on one cylinder/cylinder bank or both banks to come to such a result? Did you tested that on a Type 1 with the Type 3 tin, too?







:silly: Sometimes I think I'm mad! :silly:

Thanks for the pics Zen.

Sandeep

I have 2 sets of CHT gauges. One of them is from www.westach.com and features 4 gauges in one housing with thermocouples on each spark plug. I also have another quad gauge that has probes that fit in the lower side of each cylinder.

When I did the testing I was working with the late Joe Locicero. He sent me a 24 probe thermocouple and harnass set that had 6 position switches for taking reading from 24 locations at once in real time with 4 gauges. This is the harnass he used to effectively design the DTM shroud.

So yes, the information was gathered with accurate gauges, just the two CHT gauges aI have in Quad form cost me over 1,000 bucks. I take what I test seriously, thats why I post so firmly, as I know the truth.

I did the TI test with TIII tin a long time ago, when I first got the dyno. I did not log very much data about it, it was a TI and I was just playing around..

....
 

I've got a few more questions, Jake. Thanks for your fullfilling anther.

Why do you think, is it better to use the Type 1 reflectors instead of the original metal parts? Did you measure the temperature for this test at all four spark plugs or maybe under the cylinder in different positions, too? Did you test that on all kinds of engines with all kinds of fan systems? At least, what was the difference when using the Type 3 sheet on the Type 1 or was there any difference and did you measure the temperature again under all spark plugs?

Thanks,

Oliver ( <-- :silly: )

Oliver,
I explained the reasoning for the TI tins in an earlier post, it is due to the direction of the airflow.

Yes I did test this with full westach instrumentation, quad CHT and also one probe under each cylinders 3rd fin.

I also used the 24 probe harnass and installed 6 senders in different locations for each test, with 4 gauges I could watch each cylinder in real time... The differences were not small, and when the fan belt was removed from each one the engine magically produced 4more HP than with the TIV tins under the cylinders.

If VW would have wanted to restrict the airflow and keep things cooler don't you think they would have used TIII tins under the cylinders on TI powered busses? They did not because they understood the dynamics of the airflow.

For the cooling system to work efficiently the air must be able to escape almsot as fast as it goes over the cylinders, else it stagnates and does nothing...

I'm going to be testing my new version of DTM really soon, probably in 2 months . It is equipped with positioned stator vanesto direct airflow, at that time I wil also prove this cylinder tin debate again with my shroud, as I plan on offering the TI tins with the kit.

On a TI engine, the TIII tins did alot of harm, look on cal look com and do a search I posted the info there about 6 months ago,.

....
 

This temperature story is nice, but it's only static dyno work. Place around 20 tapes per cylinder and drive the car w/engine, where it has to live (...on the road/track/Autobahn), You'll receive more concrete measurements of the maximal heat, that is reached at nearly every point I want to measure. Ok, you can't make diagrams and you can't see it directly in °F, but what you can tell then is, that you'll have hot spots on the cylinder, where the wear is bigger, when you use the just Type 1 plate instead of the more complex Type 4 sheet metal (Besides, who speaks about using it as it comes?). Measure cylinders after a life of driving, you'll see it!

You should talk to another dyno and test fetischist in Germany, that is Mr. Rolf Klaus in person (http://www.klaus-kaefertuning.de). He invented the underside head cooling (you can believe it or not) where cooling air streams through a heater hose to the middle of the head on the downside, to cool the engine as effective as it can be cooled...

http://www7.brinkster.com/oschoppm/k.../lukue_rsk.jpg

...surely only with his Porsche style fan system.

http://www7.brinkster.com/oschoppm/k...e/lukue_hu.jpg

Btw, this is definitely not my thing, but this is an example, how to develop the best of a part with a lot of tests and time, talk to him. I think, he'll still have some news for you, as he's pretty the same guy like you. Testing, testing, testing and saying (with facts on papers), that all what he builds is perfect in contrast to other tuners! Sorry, but that are just my 2 cents to that and a lot of other themes!

Oliver,
Could you attach those pictures again maybe? I can't 'see' them now, its just a small x in my screen.

That Klaus redesigned Porsche cooling shroud and special underside engine tin is a very interesting development indeed. Its under the heading of 'Luftkuhlung' (aircooling) on the Klaus site. Fortunately you don't have to speak german to understand those pictures. Now I understand why another very respected german tuner (Gerd Tafel, with his fully equipped mex beetle with 2733 cc T4 with FI that did measured (VW Speed)0-62 in 4,5 sec) use the Klaus intake and cooling system in their own cars...

Thanks for the update in the latest technology. Thats one of the great things about this forum IMO.

Walter

:cool: Oliver, Klaus does some nice work! I love his shroud design, especially the profiling on th rear to address airflow directioning. Very innovative individual!;)

sandeep, did you thread the holes drilled where the bail holes are? i am thinking not and assume that the stud threaded on both sides with a 3-5mm non-threaded area in the middle is the stud that is used there.

also, what size fitting are you using for the breather under those. i am thinking of using a 45 angle instead of straight so i can use it for some very slow oil filling for the lack of a better place.

Zen,

Yup, those are the ones. I just drilled the bail area so they just push in. I used loctite to secure them into the aluminum peice that the fan mount bolts to.

As for the breather, I bought the Bugpack breather kit and it came with the fittings that have an o-ring.

I drilled a hole BEHIND the breather tower (instead of the side, like in the instructions) because I'm going to route the breather tube THROUGH the shroud to keep the engine bay as clean of hoses as I can.

As for the oil filling, I filled the case before I bolted on the fan mount. On my engine, I have a factory breather vent on the right head (when viewed from the rear) where one of my breather tubes fit. Its really easy for me to fill the case from this fitting.

BTW, I talked to Oliver about the factory oil filter location. He said I could use the factory location with the BAS but use a smaller dia Rabbit filter. I'm getting the header ceramic coated anyways so this should help keep the radiated temps down in that area.

Hows your install coming ? I hope to have mine done in the next 3 weeks. I'm STILL waiting for my fan assembly to get here ... #@$$# USPS !

Sandeep

so just to verify, no threading in the bail holes right?

i haven't done much in the past few weeks. i already bought a remote filter mount. i figured for $13 it gives me some flexibility. i need to find a ceramic coater around here too. need to re-research which coating to go with.

on the oil filling, i have the same option since i too have 2.0l heads. not being able to fit it yet, i wasn't sure if there was clearnace to do that. i like the idea of running it in the shroud to hide it.

and afterall the FAT deliberation, i am hitting the reality that i may have some extra cash available and may be able to do a bigger engine sooner. have to do some more math though and wait to see what my accountant has to say on the taxes. if so, i may ditch the FAT shroud and go to a sharpbuilt so i can close the decklid. another option is i have given the body/paint guy a link to this thread to see what creative decklid options he can come up with.

was just thinking, if jake builds an engine with a FAT shroud, does that make it a FAT RAT?

All of this information is very good, but what to use for a oil breather? make one up? buy it made? or buy the CSP one?


E