hello pleaese
 

may i share my idea of
-having the shroud in 2 halves
-split on the same line as the case
-simply bolted together

-so, you can incorporate the front lower tins into it - for type one

-plus you could also incorporate a re-bate so it fits over the fan ring-snug

I think its a very good idea. I actually was thinking of eliminating the shroud-part over the top casing house as well as it doesn't have a function and only disturbs air-flow.

I only don't know the meaning of the english word 're-bate'? Coul you eleborate?

Tnx,
Walter

i
 

i was talking out of my arse, as
-i just remembered i machined the stock rebate off the fan ring

-what i meant was - the sock porsche ringhas a lip around it
-if the shroud was in half, it could clamp behind=total seal

-i was having a play with mine today, the fit to the heads is rubbish
-i like what you mean about keeping them low to the case, plus driving the air between the barrels seems logical

-i was even thinking about fitting the oil cooler-the stock one on the centreline, and ducting it out of the bulk ehead tin -like stock 911

-i just want to get my van back and get the engine in!
:D

What you are talking about if bifurcating the output of the 911 fan.

It would look just like the annular cans in my old turbine engines.
:)

Looking from the rear, they would be split at 1 o'clock and 7 o'clock, with
the 1 and 6 o'clock tube feeding the 3/4 cyls and the 12 and 7 o'clock tube feeding the 1/2 side.

I have made up foam models to do this, as it is an excellent idea, but I
have no fiberglassing savvy.

Maybe a fiberglassing GURU close to me would like to take on the challenge
of taking my foam molds and making fiberglass molds to test and share the results?

OF course, since it would be the most beautiful and efficient design/use of
the 911C2 fans(12-blade), demand will be so great that one person couldn't
possibly spend all the cash he would make off of my idea/molds, so he would also share
some of the profits, eh? BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
:D

Interested Wally?

Don

Hi can someone enlighten me on what exhaust system is that on the pic with the RMB shroud? and what does RMB stand for?

http://www.rbernauer.de/

RMB=Renn Motoren Bernauer It is said he is developing the 4-valve aircooled head together with Martin Bott ;)

From their site:
http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/63118.jpg

Just made two pics from Gerd Weiser's type 1 shroud from an indoor show today. If you look closely, you'll understand how nice this one has been designed and made:

http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/63238.jpg

http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/63237.jpg

Very interesting Wally.

It does look like the air is being forced between the cylinders on both sides of the engine, with a portion of the air split between the head.

Do you know how much development went into this shroud ?

I'll be restarting the work on my shroud as soon as the 2.4 is together and running, as I am using new cylinders.

Thanks for the pics !

*** Don ***

I like your idea too about splitting the air into quadrants and directing to a portion of the engine.

Sandeep

Wally

What are the chances that you got a picture of that shroud from the front? (where you mount the fan, looking into the shroud)

This is the inside if a Klaus shroud with the air distributor.
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/f...4.jpg~original

Very cool Eugene!

By the looks of it, you also have the special welded-up heads from Rolf Klaus!
Could you give more info on these heads and what motor you use them on?

What version of the Klaus cooling system is yours?

Thanks,
Walter

PS Sorry , don't hav emore pics or info on the GWD type 1 shroud, but its around for quite some time now..;)

Hi wally. No this are not my engine. Is a picture Klaus has send to me to help me with the shroud installation. He did not have the english instructions made jet when i received the shroud. I dont know a lot abouth his heads other that that can be seen from the pictures from his catalog. But he claims he is near the 100hp/l. I also noticed the fins on the top off the heads in this picture. Above the plug. They seems longer that the fins from some other pictures of his heads. Probably machined from a small block of alu and welded on top for strenght. He also uses the additional fin like other german tuners. But he don't use the GB plug position and he wrote: ''Because of to much differences between the compared engines, I could not
yet find out till today, if there is a gain of torque or power output using the GB heads. But they will get a crack to both sides of the spark hole after some
time.'' I think his chambers are reshaped. At least as much i can judge from the pictures.
I have the 3rd version of his shroud but i did not buy the RSK. I was considering it but he said that there is too much work on the heads to carry it by myself and had not any instruction written couse no one have bought the RSK in order to instal it be himself and that it will interfer with ordinary aftermarket exhaust like BAS,... He said the RSK is working great and he is using it for engines from 2.4 and up and really make a difference when driveing top speed for long time.
The pieces i have brought from him are indeed top quality and he was also kind to answer to all (dumb) questions a made.

I will take some better pictures of the shroud when i will home. I dont have any on the comp.
The engine will be a 100x71 with the NOS mahle nicasil i have posted pictures on the STF some time ago. I have Thorsten lifters -thanks for the link BTW. AMC new castings reworked by me with 44x38 valves and some moods to the chamber. I don't know for the cam yet I have a cheap USA 298° but i would like a split duration-lift. I would buy one from klaus but are crazy expensive and he is not selling cams alone. Rammele had some split cams listed if i remember correctly, but not any more and is difficult to get anything from him. I'm not fan of the Shlecher- no enough lift. And sure don't want to buy the whole cam package for a RAT cam- but would love one. So any options to get a split duration-lift from europe? Do you know anyone who will grind a custom one?

Sorry for the off topic. I will pay off wit some pictures when i get to my shroud.

Best Regards

Thats excellent Eugene!
I thought I recognised his heads from your pic ;)
The measurements he takes with his heads (which you mentioned) do concur with his cataloque writings and website :)

I remember (yeah, I know..) that Wilke Tuning from germany used to make and advertise split-duration cams. Not sure if they still exist tho. Site hasn't been updated for ages...
http://www.wilke-motorenbau.de/index.htm

But the most available are the split duration/lift cams from webcam and they also make you a custom split-duration/lift at a very small extra cost. You can contact them directly or order a custom one throught aircooled.net.
My turbo engine will use a custom webcam with Thorsten lifters. I have good faith that combo will live a long life, but as always, no guarentees...

Greets,
Walter

As promised- pisc of the klaus shroud of the 3rd generation. Note the complex shape on the back plus the mentioned internal air distributor. Sure some development went into this. The shroud uses a smaller porsche turbo like fan. 225/250mm diameter.
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/f...3.jpg~original
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/f...4.jpg~original
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/f...9.jpg~original

Eugene does you fan ring carry this code 901 106 101 5r on the fan ring. Why i am asking is because i think i have a turbo 911 fan and i am not sure. Also i need to change the fan it has some of the blades with cracks in them.

The ring is not an porsche item. Is made by Klaus so no OEM numbers. The outer diameter (250mm) is smaller than the turbo unit. I think the 11 blade fans are ok to be turned down to a smaller dia. and the twisted- end 12 blade are not because of drastic loss of air flow. I think GWD uses a turned down 12 blade fan(240mm). If you are planing to turn down a original porsche fan, you must buy a smaller ring from a tuner and have the fan rebalanced afterwards. I think it works this way.

Very nice Eugene! Thanks for posting!
Did you also got the special pully- and rear engine tin that seals of the engine compartment above the exhaust (and bell housing)?

No i did not. i have considered the pully cover but is quite expensive. i'll fab something from alu sheet metal. Klaus has some really cool things. Like his alu head covers and the central filter system. Clever design. If just money would be no problem.

Some pretty good info I found at our french sister-website www.germanlook.org :


Early 911 245 mm fan with 1.3: 1 pulley ratio 1390 ltr/sec @ 6100 rpm

1976-77 five bladed fan with 1.8:1 pulley ratio 1265 ltr/sec @ 6000 rpm

1978-79 226 mm fan with 1.81:1 pulley ratio 1380 ltr/sec @ 6000 rpm

Turbo fan with 1.68:1 pulley ratio 1500 ltr/sec @ 6000 rpm

964 fan with 1.6:1 pulley ratio 1010 ltr/sec @ 6100 rpm

New twin turbo with 1.8:1 pulley ratio 1210 ltr/sec @ 6100 rpm.

Early 911 245 mm fan with 1.3: 1 pulley ratio 1390 ltr/sec @ 6100 rpm


..................diameter (mm).........rpm.........pulley ratio....speed (ft/sec)

early 911................245..............6100.......... ..1.3 ..............334

76-77 5 blade..........245..............6100............1. 8...............462

SC.......... ...............226..............6100............1. 8...............426
.
930..........................245.............6100. ..........1.68...............431

964/993................... 279.............6100............1.6............... 468

993tt.........................279.............6100 ............1.8...............526


1965-74/75...... 110 mm crank..................95 mm fan pulley
1976-77... ........130 mm crank..................83 mm fan pulley
1978-79............130 mm crank... ..............80 mm fan pulley
1980-89............120 mm crank..................83 mm fan pulley

fan sizes / blades / air flow:

1965-74/75........245 mm / 11 pales.........1.3:1 ratio..1390 liters air/sec
1975/76- 77......245 / 5 pales..................1.8:1 ratio....1265 l/sec
1978-79............226 / 11 pales ...............1.8:1 ratio...1380 l /sec
1980-89............245 mm / 11 blade.........1.67:1 ratio...1500 l/ sec
964...............279mm / 12 pales......... 1.6:1 ratio..1010 l /sec (!)

And the best part:

An original 12-blade 964 fan uses only 8,1 hp at 6100 rpm!!
I say that is WAY less than a type 1 fan at that rpm :D

I know this thread is old, but Sandeep, can you repost the pictures of your shroud mods? They're not showing up any more, and I'm interested to see what your final set-up looked like.

please I 2nd that I am tryn to find the best 911 shroud for my turbo motor ....

Yes please I 3rd that

I'll have a look and see if I can find the pictures this weekend.

I'm looking into a horizontal shroud now as I need to fit the intercooler into the engine bay.

I will more than likely make my own as I can't justify spending another $1200 CDN for one :lmao:

Sandeep

911 cooling
 

Is that for one like wally has?

Isnt that the same shroud and set up thats on a Corvair? (The axial or horizontal ones your talking about)
I wouldnt think those are too expensive I know around here theres tons of em in barns sitting slowly sinking into the ground.

Similar to a corvair shroud, but using the porsche fan/alt that I already have.

Wally is running a horizontal shroud by Reichert Tuning but those shrouds are very difficult to get. So I will have to improvise and see how far my 'glassing' skills get me :shocked:

sandeep

Shroud
 

I was thinking of doing the same thing! But was wondering how to go about it.Keep me posted on how I'ts going. Dave

Hey Sandeep.. if you need help I'm and Ace will fiberglass... let me know

Chris.

Thanks for the link ! The first picture is what I'm after ... I want the stealth look with everything in the engine compartment.

Who's custom shroud is in the 2nd and 3rd pics ? The fab work looks excellent.

Sandeep

Actually, I remember that engine: it was a 2366cc type 4 with about 324hp in a german 1302 convertible which was sold several years ago with a broken tranny.
Engine had elaborate oiling with external belt driven pump with a schleicher 324/106LC cam and did 240 km/h or so on the Autobahn.

Its the turbo engine where I had my first ideas from about horizontal cooling and turbocharging/intercooling ;)

Hi all,

Sorry, stuffed up the pictures and the reply hence the gallery is visible, thought i deleted it.

Yes you are right, this engine did have a 324 Schleicher cam but when the transmission died at 240 Km/h it had different engine components fitted.
I cannot remember which Web cam it was but the duration was lower since the Schleicher allowed too much of the good stuff out of the exhaust. We drove the first engine one night down a built up road and every time I shifted, flames of up to 2 metres came out of the exhaust and illuminated the houses :)
The first engine was driven one Summer and then taken apart, bigger valves in new heads (50x40), compresion lowered to 7.5 and web cam installed. It was a lot more user friendly and since the boost was adjustable up to 1.5 Bar, the HP was even higher (obviously) however, it was never dynoed with the new engine. Lots of stories to tell on that one ;)
Top speed was quite a bit higher than 240 but when trying to attempt it, you almost needed 2 lanes on the Autobahn.

@ Sandeep, made both fan setups myself, the first one with the Turbo used to be my old 2.0L for which I built the horizontal fan for. My Dad made the moulds from a cut off Kerscher shroud originally and the front plate was a 5mm thick steel plate galvanised. The pulleys came from a Peugeot 304 which had the alternator fitted to the side of the engine.
When my mates car got featured in an WOB magazine, I got a mention but on the Fan setup they said it is a Riechert which pissed me off a little.
The one you see 2. and 3. in the gallery is my latest one using a 10 mm marine grade Aluminium plate, pulleys are custom made using double roller bearings and shroud is aluminium which is now TIG welded together.
Easy to do, only very time consuming, it takes a lot longer for the aluminium shrouds due to having to cut out all panels and shape them.
http://azickert.myphotoalbum.com/vie...03&id=dscf8860
In order to avoid confusion I put my name on it in a similar configuration as the original manufacturer did ;-)
Cheers

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Cool story and very beautifully done horizontal cooling system!

Thanks Walter

What would you charge for a system like that? It looks great I was going to do a 911 cooling system, but with the uneven cooling with the shroud I have I'm not going to do it now. I love the system wally has. But yours looks great aswell, If you would sell just the shroulding I would be happy with that,Wally myself and sandeep all have turbo type4s. And are on the quest for more power, better cooling. More power is just a given. Wally already has the cooling. Myself and sandeep don't. But I should only speak for myself. I want this next engine to have 225Hp at the wheel. And I want to put an intercooler in the engine bay. It will be going into a 71 super. Dave

Hi, sorry not enough time to make an sell them but feel free to contact me if you need assistance making one, its not that hard.
I've sent you a private message.


http://azickert.myphotoalbum.com/alb...umName=album03

Cheers

Thanks for the great pics and engine details Andreas. I would have thought that the horizontal fan would have pulled enough air through the intercooler to not require the additional fan ?

This engine was also my inspiration when I decided to turbo my t4 : )

Sandeep

You would think so in a completely sealed engine compartment but this was not the case here, all engine lid sealing strips were removed and there was a gap between the lid and the body. The intercooler did not sit directly on top of the fan as you can see and there was also an opening behind the number plate where the Porsche fan could get air in and possibly bypass the intercoler. Instead of relying on the Porsche fan alone, my mate Martin (the previous owner of the 1302 Cab) decided to fit the additional electric fan.
It may not be needed but what the hell, it made the whole installation even more complicated looking ;-)
Shame he sold the car...He started his own Tuning company (MG Racing, a few reviews from his Mk 5 GTI with 350HP are somewhere on the net) and did a lot of work for Oettinger in Friedrichsdorf. When it all got too much last July, he decided to call it quits and now works for a tuning company somewhere around lake constance. He still says he should have kept the beetle ...

This is the shallower Riechert housing, which is supported front and aft. Found this pic again by coinciance ;-)

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...7.jpg~original

Thats why Riechert made his own fan ring, no brackets needed underneath.
The factory Porsche alternator is better suited for a horizontal conversion compared to the aftermarket Ahnendorp fan. The attachment/bracket would consist of a ring with the same diameter and the six holes as the alternator has in the rear. this ring is then welded onto the 4 legs that bolt up to the engine block, nothing is in the way of airflow in this configuration.
The Ahnendorp one is using an ISKRA Golf style alternator with x4 5mm bolts and a stepped housing, therefore almost impossible to adapt the previously mentioned. thats why I welded some brackets to the rear as well as to the left and right
I have thought of this for a while now and gonna change the attachment to a front and rear support only. Should not be too hard to do, a machined piece of aluminium with the radius of the fan housing bolted up to the pulley bracket and welded onto the ring should take care of that.

Looks like the Riechert fan is a little higher than my one. Have you measured the top edge of a fan blade (lets say if it is pointing to the left) to the top of the engine block?
Cheers