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Tuning update and more....
The car was running beyond pig rich but after a few tweaks and turning down the req_fuel (from 11ms to 6ms :eek:) its running much better. I aslo increased the number of injections so the overall injector pulse width has been almost quartered. I turned up the waste gate as far as it would go and I'm getting 13-15psi out of the motor now, still looking for more. It's also still only winding up to 5k and I need to figure out why. Replaced a few items on the car. I replaced the pulleys with a serpentine system, mainly to improve charging and cooling, so now the alternator charges below 2k. I also swapped out the starter for a high torque unit, and the battery for an optima red top. I finally fixed the leaky valve covers as well. It turns out they were bottoming out on the top of the rocker stands before hitting the heads fully. I ground out material in the valve covers until they fit and now they seal like a charm. I've been trying to get in car footage but it's too violent for the camera and the camera keeps shutting off. I've disabled the drop sensor, and steady shot but it just can't cope. I could have used it today when a totally oblivous woman road raged when I tried to pass her and rammed the race car. I never imagined I'd be trading paint on the mountain but that's what happened. Damage to the race car was minimal (that i've noticed so far) the worst of it being tire scuffs and a 3" crack on the fender. There's some wear on the sidewall of the tire where it contacted her car (05 hyundai tucson) but not much. Her car took much more damage, both doors caved in, and front fender dented. I feel much more confident in the beetle when it comes to car-to-car contact now but I would rather have had it happen at the track, or not at all. We stopped and traded info, and I gave her a stern talking to about the proper use of turn outs. Hopefully I'll get some pics and video uploaded later this week. I've also got another dyno day scheduled next monday (the 13th) so I should have video and pice for that as well. |
Good to hear you made lots of progress! Be sure to locate the reason for not wanting to run above 5K rpm as I would really like to see good high hp results from your build!
At the hot track I logged duty cycle and were at just above 71%, but on the road (intercooler working well then) in cooler weather and a high of 81% showed (about 15ms at 6100rpm). I have 660cc (60lbs) injectors and they run at 45psi now... |
15ms sounds pretty long but at 6100rpms how much further can you wind up the motor?
Looking at my logs this weekend I did a third gear pull boosting to 14.4psi, 4800rpms, 45psi fuel pressure, 64.6% duty cycle, 8.1ms injector open time, air temp 160F (71C, no intercooling btw), and my afr hovering around 11:1. I'm running RC engineering balanced 750cc (72lb) high impedance injectors and if the duty cycle climbs too high I have room to double-up my total injections still. Right now it fires the banks alternately every spark event so, 1-bank A, 4-bank B, 3-bank A, 2-bank B, but I can bump it up to fire the injectors simultaneously if need be. The only down side then is my idle pw might be too low and the injectors might not open since right now the idle pw is around 2.3ms. |
I really need to understand this ECU jargon, I want to be able to tune mine like you guys tune yours. I feel kind of trapped right now with mine, anytime something changes I have to run to 034 to have them fix it. For example, with the new IC, it runs soooo bad cold, it's stalled a few times. It has always run poorly cold, but it's been a lot worse since the new IC and I have no knowledge of how to adjust it. If I start a new thread do you think between the 2 of you there may be some hope?
Sorry to highjack, it's just the only place this sort of chit chat is going on! Jason |
Sure Jason, but its only usefull to ecu's you can fully adjust. Do you run any kind of mappable ecu?
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I'm sure between the 2 of us we'll give you more info than you need. If I could convince you to come down on a Thursday to the BLTN meet in Sunnyvale I'd give you a live demonstration too :D
*edit* Now that I think about it I might be able to head up your way on a weekend and give you a hand. Do you have a laptop with the tuning software loaded? |
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Jason |
Well I'm afraid I have some bad news to report, the motor blew on the dyno today. By the sound of it, it seems valve train related but I won't know for sure until I tear the motor down. There were a few things that didn't seem right either, the motor was only making 120hp/125trq at 13psi which is really really wrong. A 2+ liter engine with that kind of boost should be well in the 200's. I may shelf the turbo bits for now and throw in the N/A spare just to get racing by the end of the season but for now it's back to the drawing board.
I did get some pics and video and I'll toss them up as soon as I get through them. She sounded awesome during the several pulls she made it's a shame the motor let go. |
dam sucks to hear man. i guess i should have asked for a ride at bltn lol.
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Oh man! That is a total bummer! :(
Sorry for your loss... really hope you recover from it and slap a new long block together. Pls let us know what the cause was, so we all can avoid that one next time. |
Oh NO Will!!!! Oh that just SUCKS. I was hoping to hear glowing stories, not that it blew. You know, water isn't as bad as you might think...(said the snake from the tree)
Thanks so much for coming up, sorry that the logger wasn't working, I'm going to call them today and see if I can get to the bottom of it. I did work on the intake boot, turns out it was being squashed by it's position, so I cut it and am trying a new angle that I hope will work. It's all sort of in a holding pattern till the gt28rs goes in, but some air will probably make it work better. I doubt it will help too much with cold running, I'll just have to keep plugging on that. Jason |
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...and yes it IS bad in a beetle :p. |
Really sorry to hear that humble, I was hoping to make it out to BLTN and see your car...
Where and when do they meet anyways? I work in Fremont, and always see a lot of VW's on random Thursdays on my way home from work LOL |
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I got video and pictures up today, and the video will be a good carrot on a stick to get the motor back together. The dyno was at Blacktrax and Jei is the man trying to work his dyno majic but Lucy didn't want to play along. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C22vyW33-Os http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l4...2.jpg~original http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l4...4.jpg~original http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l4...5.jpg~original |
Why can't I hear any devastating engine noises?
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Man that just sux. Always hate to hear this kind of stuff.
Keep the chin up. |
Any chance your cam timing is off a tooth? That would kinda explain the 5k rev range, and possibly the kaboom? It just doesn't sound like the timing is right to me, like it's retarded.
Jason |
I do agree that it sounds very wrong to begin with. Just doesn't run smooth, but kinda like its on 3 cylinders or something. Timing way off could also sound like that maybe.
Maybe flat cam? Turbo does spool nicely on a positive note. |
The cam timing was spot on 0* not advanced or retarded. The motor did start winding up up to 7500 on the dyno after some tuning. In the video he was tuning 2000-5500 pulls and loading up different amounts of boost so he wasn't takingit to redline.
He did have the timing advanced quite a bit looking at the maps, up to 50* of advance, which tells me the mechanical timing is off quite a bit. When he was tuning he was pushing for max torque by adjusting the timing but 50*of advance is unreal. But even so, since it's electronic the timing would work out correctly at the crank (or so i'm thinking). The only things I can think of for possibly causing such extremely low numbers are flat cam or possibly the manifolds. I remembered last night I never swapped the manifolds for the correctly ported ones, so the intake manifolds on the car have stock sized ports where they meet the head. Do you think that flow restriction alone would limit to 120hp? Looks like I'll be able to get the car home today or tomorrow and tear the motor out on sunday possibly. Hopefully by sunday night, or midway through next week we'll know the failure points. |
I just can't see flat cam or intake size causing a motor to blow, where's mechanical timing might have some parts being where they shouldn't be at the wrong time?
Jason |
All the mechanical timing was fine the only thing that could have been off was the distributor body but I can compensate for that with the programmable timing (which is most likely why the advance numbers are so high). The motor didn't really blow so much as it wimpered and said please no more. I really think its just a dropped valve seat and that (fingers crossed) no real damage was done.
If it was a dropped valve seat then I need to rerun the lines for the 1-2 side head temp because I think it may be running hotter than the 3-4 side. So while the 3-4 side was reading 380-390, the 1-2 may have been over 400. |
That might cause a valve seat to move, I hope its nothing major. Why ARE you running a distributor anyways?
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It's much easier to implement programmable timing via HEI since it just drops in via distributor than fabbing up everything necessary for edis. Also, as I understand it HEI is a more reliable setup than edis from what I found on the MS2 forums.
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check out http://www.boostengineering.net/category_s/22.htm its just about bolt on. Just FYI in case you hadn't heard of it. Brian is a super helpful guy, I think his handle is beanbooger on one of the forums...
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I know but he mentioned it not being a bolt on affair, and that pulley makes it a bolt on affair... Not sure if many people know about it, just trying to spread the word, I have one, and it was super easy to do.
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I didn't see it on the website but is there a mount for the vr sensor too? Also depending on where it's mounted it may not work with the serpentine belt pulley systems.
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They don't have a VR sensor mount, but if you can build that car you can take a piece of aluminum make a 90 degree bend, drill some holes in it and mount the VR sensor to it and the aluminum to the fuel pump studs... I don't know if your serpentine belt system has something there, if it does, I believe brian was making a prototype bracket that mounts the sensor to the left of the pulley, maybe email him and ask. I would never use a distributor again on my 1303 after having DIS...
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Any 'damage assesment' yet? I am sure your as curieus to get to the bottom of this as I am/we are.
BTW, I had a very nice experience with the WI today and actually saw my EGT drop about 50 degrees Celcius during boost with WI and a tad lower boost where WI is not activated (factory threshold at 0,8 bar boost). I was running 4500-4700 rpm at the time in 5th gear to be able to witness this (tested it just across the border in germany as those rpms in that gear means about 185-190 km/u constantly...) So what I am trying to say is: if your having temp problems with boost, be sure to use water/meth injection as it really does help a lot! |
I haven't had a chance to tear into it yet but I haven't been lax either. I got on the phone with Pat Downs to hear his opinion and he mentioned a couple of concerns. First, compression was to low and he recommended bumping it to 8.5:1. Second, flow restrictions due to manifolds and/or cam going flat. I sent my spare block off to have the decks machined down 2mm making the total +5mm over a stock case. That should raise my compression to 8.6:1 but I'll spec the motor during assembly again to make sure.
About the same time the motor went I had a couple hard drives in my home computer go at the same time (2 of the same drive so I'm guessing manufacturing issue). I had a backup of my OS drive but the other died before I could get the data off and that disk had everything on it. All my financials, photos from vacations, all my build up pics, all my mp3's, and all my racing videos. I sent it off to a data recovery service but it'll be about 1K to get everything back. So the data recovery is eating some of the cash flow that would otherwise go to the motor. Once it's paid for though the heads are up next to be re-worked, then a new set of ported manifolds. I should have some extra cash in August (I can't believe it's almost August :P ) and that will help things move along a bit faster. |
Finally got the motor out and found a lot of good news and some weirdness. I quickly found the source of the noise which turned out to be from the retainer on the rocker shaft backing out. No harm done *big sigh of relief* but where is my lack of power coming from? I kept digging to find 3 out of 4 pistons sooted up with carbon but #1 was clean as a whistle. the 3-4 head was tight as a drum no leaks, but the 1-2 head wasn't as tight and #2 was leaking slightly. Also found the source of a couple persistent oil leaks, the turbo drain pipe (which was loose) and the 3-4 lower head studs. The case sealed up great and there were no seam related leaks. The galley plug in the back of the block had started seeping so I'll have to find a better way to seal it up. Cylinders looked great, bearings looked great and in some places the dry molydisulfide (MoS2) film coating I applied during assembly was still in place. I did find a slight wear pattern in the intake lobe for 1 and 3 and patterns on the lifters for the same but not high enough to feel with a finger nail scrape.
Some bad news now... I went to pick up the spare block on friday only to find a bunch of issues. The order was to deck it by 2mm each side and I confirmed this but they did more. They removed the case savers and drilled out every stud hole. Then they pressed in some kind of insert threaded for a 10mm stud except for the deep stud in #3 which they drilled out but never replaced. On monday the block goes back for a deep stud insert and hopefully I'll find out what the inserts are made of. If worse comes to worse they will have to fill every hole with weld, re-drill, and install new case savers. Now on to the good stuff... Here's one of the leak culprits, the threaded pipe for the turbo drain was loose http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l4...6.jpg~original This is what all of the plugs looked like http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l4...7.jpg~original the 3-4 head, exhaust valves got toasty http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l4...3.jpg~original The other big leak I couldn't fix, the 3-4 lower head studs http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l4...6.jpg~original I'm not sure if it's normal for untreated cylinders to bronze like this http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l4...4.jpg~original 3-4 pistons, lots of carbon http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l4...5.jpg~original pulled the 1-2 valve cover to find this http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l4...7.jpg~original http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l4...8.jpg~original Some weirdness here, I think there may have been some fuel starvation here so I'm going to double check the #1 fuel injector http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l4...9.jpg~original http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l4...0.jpg~original some scoring on the bottom of all the pistons, not sure if that's normal for big bore/stroke combos http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l4...2.jpg~original http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l4...3.jpg~original |
I don't think #1 was running at all!!! That would explain the weird running sound on the video AND the low power!!! So really you're getting pretty good numbers for a 3 cylinder!!!
Have you pulled each injector and watch it squirt? I'll make you a small bet the #1 injector has issues or the wiring to it has issues. Jason |
I had to pull the injectors off to pull the motor but I'll probably put just the fuel system back on and fab up a test rig. the injectors were all brand new, balanced and tested from rc engineering. But since everything on the engine was new something could be in there blocking the flow. I'll double check the wiring but 1-2 fire together and since 2 was working I'm thinking the wiring is fine. I'm also not ruling out a spark issue... actually now that I'm thinking about it we were trying to time the engine on the dyno and a couple timing lights wouldn't work. A third finally did but it was spotty, so timing could definitely be part of it.
In other news I got the spare block back, turns out the didn't clean the case after machining and there was aluminum build up over the case savers. The deep stud hole by #3 was also filled with shavings. I still got to clean the case up more but re-assembly should happen soon. |
I'm hating crappy craftsmanship more and more as time goes on...
Jason |
Just back from holiday and am very happy your engine issues are actually quite minor and don't cost much to mend :)
I agree with Jason about the no. 1 cylinder: it may just be a blocked injector due to some crap that was in your fuel system (tank, lines, who knows?) If the spark was at fault, wouldnt the plug show a totally different color? |
Damn I feel like and idiot now. No harm done and not much money lost (a wasted trip to the machinist) but I found the source of my problems. Turns out a bad measurement was made and that effected everything. I measured the plate for checking deck height incorrectly, or rather must have read the dial calipers wrong. Probably due to assembling the motor at 2-3am the first time around because I was excited :P
Well I found the mistake today when I double checked the plate thickness. My measurement was off .100" so I had an actual deck height of .171" instead of .071" or a total compression of 6.5:1. So If you're curious as to what kind of power a 2165cc, very low compression motor, running on 3 cylinders makes on 13lbs of boost, it's about 107hp. The low compression explains the hard starting problems and low power so I'm relieved about that. I'm going to tear the short block back down and have both cases machined a total of 4mm (4mm on one block and an additional 2mm on the other). In hindsight, I would have caught this problem early on if I did a compression test, so maybe it's time I got a compression tester. So going from 6.5:1 to 8.5:1 should be a real kick in the pants with or without boost :) I'll probably be re-re-assembling next weekend and hopefully driving again a week from today. |
Sweet!!! Good to hear it was just a learning moment and not a start over! Can't wait to hear about the new numbers.
Jason |
Sweet... I'm with Jason,
good to hear it wasn't s HUGE problem and you didn't really hurt anything. Chris. |
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