what would the hp be?
 

Ok, I have 2 motors, one will go in the bug when its done and stay stock, the second motor will be built up. I dont want a 2L but I want a 1776,1835 or a 1915, or maybe a 1641cc.I want it to be pretty quick but still be reliable.My budget is maybe 4grand or whatever I save up to till the time I'm ready to tear my other motor down.I found a website that shows all the stock specs on the bugs.The motor in my bug(or will be in my bug stock has 65bhp and 86lbs torque, and weighs 1786lbs stock.The other motor is out of a 74 and has 46hp and 89lbs of torque.
I was thinking about a combo, here is one I was thinking of, tell me what you think?This is for the future refference so I know what I want and to be ready, if you know what I mean?

the bore- 87mm,90.5mm,92mm, or 94mm AA pistons and cylinders (they ok?)
Eagle Racing cam-Adv. Duration .276", Duration @.050"-.228", Lift @ cam- .380" Lift w/ 1.1:1 rockers-.417"
Straight cut cam (Would it do anything?)
Super Stock Rhino Rocker arm kit 1.1:1
Dual 34mm ICTs or Dual 40mm Kadrons or Weber 40 IDF's
044 Super Mag CNC round port heads
Springloaded pushrods
Lightened 200mm flywheel
Pertronix Billet Distributor
Pertronix 8mm plug wires
Pertronix black coil w/ 45000 volts
Ceramic coated merged header with a glasspack

I am aware the pertronic ignition system does not increase hp but thats part of the setup
What you guys think it would have for hp?If its a high reving motor that would be awesome IMO, i like cars that rev high, AND DONT TELL ME TO GET A HONDA for saying that :laugh:

Just my opinion, as i'm planning a daily driver yet a bit powerful type 1 engine for my GL project

If you want to have reliable pistons, you can only choose between 90.5 and 94. This is because their cylinder wall thickness is the same as stock. The others are thinner. If you want torque, you must go with a stroker, i think a 78mm crank would be a good option, since no major modding to the crankcase is required, only some clearancing. AA are chinese, but some say they're true forged, unlike mahle. About the camshaft I'd go with an engle 120 or equivalent, with 1.1 rockers. If you've got more buck, you can get an fk-8 and a set of 1.4 rockers. 90.5 x 78mm, that would make it more reliable because of the lesser stress on the valvetrain. 044 P&P heads are perfect, maybe with 45 x 35.5 valves, depending on your engine displacement.
The straight cut gears only add noise, which some guys seem to like. Someone said once at thesamba that it was like adding baseball cards to your bike's spokes. The lighter flywheel is a must. As for the carbs, i'd go for 44 idf webers for anything above 1776cc, don't get the ict's unless you are not increasing the displacement very much. Whatever ignition you like, as long as it's pointless, and a proper sized header, depending on your heads' flow. You might also need an external cooler to increase the engine's lifespan, in case you use big displacement or a high compression ratio.
BTW revving a vw makes it lose useful life, so it loses reliability in that sense. That's why I'd go with a stroker.
I'm planning my 2007cc, btw. Oh, and you should read the tech articles on aircooled.net for more info.

Yep, what Evil said... 2007cc (90.5 x 78) is a very good combo. Good torque and longlife... perfect combo. ;)

Of these four sizes, the only two that got a reasonably universal thumbs up during my investigation of Type I engines were the 1776 and 1915. I highlighted these portions of the EvilAngel's post below because I think it bears repeating -- especially since you brought up reliability.

BTW, reliability is easy to understand but hard to define. Everyone's definition and threshold will be different.

I am not expert enough to comment on any other details and won't pretend to be.

I will say horsepower and torque are fleeting numbers and can vary within the same hardware selection. Another aspect on horsepower and torque that warrants emphasizing is these numbers will vary with the same exact engine and combo depending on where it is measured.

For example, the original engine in my '71 was as stock as stock can be. The owner's manual lists it as being 60 bhp at 4400 rpm and 81.7 ft-lbs. at 3000 rpm. It was measured on the dyno during November 2005 at 44.5 hp at 4200 rpm and 69.2 ft-lbs. at 2700 rpm.

If one of the experts chime in with a guesstimate or a range with your hypothetical hp, they are more likely to spout a dyno number as the experts I have listened to have access to, have had access to, or own a dyno.

WEll guys what I meant for it being reliable is because it will be my daily driver. My Sentra is going to my brother so the bug has to be reliable.I dont want to have to replace something every week :laugh: I never read anything on other forums about a 2007cc, are they a nice motor when built up nice?This motor wont be touched until my bugs body is done and its up and running so I got plenty of time.Im just wanting ideas so I'll know ahead of time what I want you know what I mean?
I cant find any heads with the 45x35.5 valves but I seen heads with 42x37.5 valves, dual rev springs, chromoly retainers s/s sure grips and whatever bore I want.I also read the tech articles on aircooled.net, mostly the one on basic bolt ons for a 1600cc.

Well neither am I, but since I am also in the quest for the perfect combo for my daily driver (and sometimes also sole source of transportation) I have read a lot recently about VERY reliable combos and with a decent power output.
Remember the bug is a very light car compared to others, so even with lower HP numbers you can outrun them. According to John Connoly from aircooled.net, with about 140 HP you can outrun a mustang, and above 180 you can beat a vette :eek:
Now, regarding piston size reliability, the reason for this is that you want your cylinder walls to be as tick as stock. If you use thinner walls, heat will warp them.
As for revving the engine. You can do it, however, too high rpm means a lot of friction, and a lot of wear, therefore, less useful life. Remember that the stock bug has a redline at abou 4500 rpm (at least a mex-spec bug does). You can get a higher redline by changing some components, such as the crank, the cam, connecting rods, etc, but then, ther'es wear. That's exactly why I chose a stroker. Higer power at lower RPM's, and even better, more torque in the lowrange! All these equal longer life under similar conditions

Edit: Oh and I forgot to say, I am also adding an extra oil cooler, since the extra displacement will generate more heat, and more heat = less life.

1.: is it the same with type4 too?? I'm hesitating between 94 and 96..

2:: AA products are better than mahle???? it's new for me...really??

Well I dont'n know if the'yre better or not. Several websites have reported that new mahle piston sets are actually cast and not forged (for example, cip1.com and aircooled.net, under hte product description). However, Mahle is doubtless a very high quality brand when it comes to aircooled pistons.

According to cip1, the AA are true forged, however they're made in China

Here you can see for yourselves:
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails....C%2DC10%2D5167
http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/vie...18200773348335
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails....C%2DC10%2D5204

Note that AA are about 50 bucks cheaper. You can blame that on branding, or on quality...

I really don't know about type 4 cylinder walls, but why don't you make a search on the forums on thesamba? You might find very good T4 combos in there.

Aircooled.net sales a rebuild kit.
http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/vie...23200766155208
everything needed except heads,case(i have a case) to build a 2007cc, which is what you guys recomended.Would that kit be a good one to buy, or would I be better off buying it all separate, well when I'm ready I mean:laugh:
And heads, but what would be a streetable head
http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/vie...23200766155208
And a cam I would want a wicked idle...dont ask, I seen a video of a bug sounded like a 2 stroke jackhammer lol I liked that sound.

Veedub, there's another article there describin the pros and cons of different cylinder and crank setups, as well as other "internal" mods. Check http://aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resour...es/t1hpeng.htm
And i also want my engine to be as reliable as possible, and i've read that the 2007cc combo is very reliable if properly cooled (i'm planning on an external oil cooler, and running 8.5:1 CR)

Sorry I meant 40x35.5 valves, and for what I've read Steve Tims makes a set of heads that's both excellent in performance and reliability. You will need all those valvetrain stuff (dual springs etc) for the hot camshaft, for reliability and to prevent valve float at high RPM.
It seems to me that you were looking at cb's heads, their 044 castings are said to be very reliable. Remember that they also must be ported and polished, there's no point on using big valves on a stock port head, if you can get a p&p'd one.

Well I've been considering the exact same kit. As for the price, is depends really on who you buy from. I've read that scat's lifters are not among the best, but their other parts are a good choice. The main con I see on this kit is that you can't get specific parts, you are stuck with what scat gives in it's kit. So, if I want an FK cam, i'd have to buy it separate, the same with 1.4 rockers, etc. You can't fine-tune it.

According to AC.net, their level 2 heads are streetable. They're 043 castings, so they are more reliable than using stock 040 or 041.

A loud sound can be achieved with the cam gears, usig straight cut. I dont think an engine being that loud (as a jackhammer) on IDLE would be streetable (or street legal anyway :D )

:laugh: Good point.
I read on the link you gave me there streetable heads are Level 5 and Level 3, theres no level 2 by the way;)
I didnt notice it was a Scat kit..well they got a bugpack kit but they dont come with all the parts the scat kit has and there the same prices, weird.
I also seen a kit advertized in the HVW magazine that sales for around 1200 bucks but its for any size that you want, I think 800 was the starting price though.

Well, you're right about the heads.. my bad :D

Bugpack tends to be more expensive than scat in most cases, don't know why thoug. I mentioned I was considering the volkstroker kit but I'm not a fan of buying kits now, ever since i discovered serrano's. There I can buy whatever parts i want for the price of a Kit. Maybe he even sells kits, but i haven't asked.

It's a store that sells parts via thesamba.com classifieds. They sell good quality parts at extremely low prices. However, the main advantage from aircooled.net is the excellent support that John Conolly offers, from what i've read.
Check this link, it's a search on thesamba that shows serrano's articles.
HERE

well, thanks a lot. Meanwhile I made a quick search, and nearly everybody prefered the AA-1s against the Mahle... good to know. At the moment I'm just looking for some infos. As I have written elsewhere, a set of AA pistons was offered to me. they are 96mm, my only problem is with the price...it's quite expensive. But at least it's in my country, I can see it don't have to wasting time and be frightened about shipping etc.. I have serious doubt with buying things from internet... so it would be much more simple to me. (howewer there are lot of good quality products in the States on ridiculous prices, so maybe I should risk it.:confused: )
thnx for the useful links!

Anybody know of any other sites that sells full engine rebuild kits like aircooled.net does? But, in that same range of 1200.00 or close?

check www.cip1.com they have several kits there

I know you guys recommended a 2007cc, which is cool :D and I know about the issues with slip in pistons, but my foots not heavy, a stroker would give me a heavy foot though :laugh:So I was wondering if a 1641 or 1680cc would be a reliable motor with balls with the right heads and setup.
I was reading about the head in Aircooled.net and was thinking about there Level 5 heads with a cam and rockers combined to get a .450-.500 lift and was wondering what you guys thought. I know its a small motor but if it reved to like 6k would it be ok?I just always have liked little motors with a big bite, I guess its because I'm used to seeing the guys my age around in my area with small motors with nice takeoff.I dont want it for racing, just something that can get up and go when I need it. :D

forgot to mention heres the kit I was looking at http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails....10%2D5000%2DKT

Well you certainly can have a lil' engine that bites, but there goes reliability. You won't get 150k miles if you rev it to 6k rpm often. Why don't you consider a 1776 (90.5 x 69). It's relatively small, 1.8, and it sure can bite at 6.5k rpm with proper heads.
I'd say that if you must rev it better go with 1776. Same thickness as stock, unlike slip-ins.
Just what i think
... And my foot IS heavy :) with my 100% stock 1584cc i get about 20 mpg at best

well what I mean by reving to 6k, is that be the rev line, im not gonna rev it up to 6k :eek: maybe rev to 5k and shift..

If reliability is a component, the 1776 is the direction to go. I have heard several times from those I would consider experts that is what Volkswagen should have done themselves as the next step with the Type I engine.

(I don't think your distinction of 5k rpm shifts changes the answer any.)

I know that the 1776cc is a good motor, but the 1641cc and 1680cc was just a thought.When I do start on the other motor I got, I might just buy a full rebuild kit that increases displacement that has everything.I have a case and Id just buy the heads last. That way I can buy the best heads I can afford.I would have done the same with the 1641cc or 1680cc.Just wondering about the 1641cc, the heads, Id want to find the 85.5 bore heads right, in performance wise, right?

Oasis, I agree with you, but I'd say that a PROPERLY COOLED 2007cc would be as reliable,or at least very close, to a 1776, and being a stroker and therefore having more torque, would be funnier to drive

Veedub, the problem is that you just wouldn' get the same reliabiliy with slip-ins

When I was investigating engines for me, not one person mentioned a 2007cc Type I -- good or bad. If I had gone with a Type I instead of my 2056cc Type IV, I probably would have leaned towards a 2110cc.

The funny thing is after I described my joyful return with my new engine, a Type I enthusiast deadpanned that it sounded like a 2007cc. That was the first time I had heard of a 2007cc. It started a whole firestorm of opinions flying back and forth about Type I versus Type IV.

Anyway, I went through a lot of effort in investigating the different choices. I took a lot of notes. I mentioned the 1776cc and the 1915cc because those were my findings as opposed to my opinion. As I said in an earlier post, I am not an expert and I don't play one on the Internet.

I am sure a 2007cc would be funner than a 1776cc. Maybe funnier, too. :p

Yeah I see what you guys are saying about the 2007cc and 1776cc.This is the first I've heard of a 2007cc too(well when you first mentioned it anyway) my problem with the strokers is well I am going to be using the stock 1600cc to learn to drive(i cant drive a manual) Thats why I was saying the motor would be a side project.It has to be reliable but then again, I have 2 motors.Build one as a 1641cc and put it in the bug then the other Im learning with since its and AE case, get serious on the power with that one, maybe?I was told the AE case is what everyone tries to find and build up. The other motor is a california AH case, with all the emission b.s. on it which is coming off.I could take that motor, put "slip ins" in it, dual kadrons, so-cal imports Outlaw big valve heads W110 cam, and header an muffler, just for a short time, then when that motors done and in the bug, take the AE case and build a 2007cc with the works, if you know what I mean.
Id use the AH case to learn to drive the manual with but it needs to be rebuilt, the AE case is altogether, was rebuilt professionally, and is together.It just needs pushrods and a tuneup and the 34pic to be rebuilt.

Well I am no expert either, but i have read many things about this combo on thesamba, and several people claim that's it's a very good street engine.

And as you can see, english isn't my main language :D

Veedub: I find your plan excellent

Now some links, they're abou pros and cons of 2007 vs 1776
1, 2, 3, 4, 5

I thought it was a good idea too.
The 1600cc will be stock.
The other I was thinking of buying the 1641cc rebuild kit i showed you in a previous post. So-Cal Imports sales a head called the Outlaw head, with 40x35.5 valves, high rev springs ,chromoly retainers and s/s sure grip, last I checked they cost 189.95 standard bore.A cam comes in the rebuild kit which is cool. Carberators Id probably just run dual 35mm solex carbs.Then for the one going in my car now ....maybe a 2007cc or whatever project.
I could always build a 1641cc and turbocharge it:laugh: just playing

Edit: the rebuild kit comes with 85.5,87, or 88mm pistons'
new stock OEM connecting rods,I-beam con rods, or H beam con rods
new stock 69mm crank,scat 69mm cast crank, or 69mm 4140 forged c/w crank
8 x stock replacement cam lifters/followers,8 x 28mm HD Lube-a-lobe followers/lifters, 8 x 30mm HD cam lifters/followers, or 8 x 30mm HD lube-a-lobe followers/lifters
Stock dished gear 1971-1979 camshaft w/gear attached, Engle W100 camshaft W/O gear, Engle W110 camshaft W/O gear, or Engle W120 camshaft W/O gear
Bolt-on cam gear for Hi-Per. cams (optional)

Turbo is not a bad idea. However, it's expensive and requires pretty much everything forged if you want reliability

Yeah I see that its expensive, N/A is cheaper.

A 1776 or a 1914 are going to be a more reliable motor then a 1641 or 1679
with slip in pistons. Both 1776 & 1914 have thicker wall pistons then the
other two.

Your English is much more goodly than my German, Spanish, or French. :D

I just enjoyed the typo creating a new word and a new meaning, that's all. :o

Vujade: I agree with you, an did noted that before, but since veedub is goind to build the big engine relatively soon I didn't mention it
Oasis: Well thanks, BTW my German and French knowledge is very close to nothing, mostly lyrics from Rammstein and Enigma

I been looking at kits on the cip1 website and found these kits what you guys think?
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails....C15%2D2027%2D1

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails....C15%2D2095%2D1

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails....C15%2D2110%2D1

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails....C15%2D2161%2D1

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails....C15%2D2161%2D1

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails....C15%2D2187%2D1

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails....C15%2D2234%2D1

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails....C15%2D2275%2D1

Would these kits be worth it or would they most likely be cheap stuff?

Well those are good if youre biulding an engine form scrap, but since you already have the case, you will be spending unnecesarily. Plus, being a racing kit, i keep my doubts about reliability

yeah good point, I think its just a longblock anyways and for only racing too.

I think I basically got my plans (ahead of time so I know what I want to do in advance) I want to build a 1776cc thats reliable but still able to play, you know ;) Heres what I found so far, that I will save up for.You can add any recomendations if you like :D
Anyways...
Scat Pro Street Forged 1.25:1 rockers- 157.45 (to cheap?)
Engle W110 cam with a .430" lift and .284" duration- 64.95
Billet Steel Straight Cut cam- 73.45
Super Big Bore Kit 90.5mm p&c's forged- 199.95
4140 Forged Chromoly 69mm crank- 179.95
Pertronix Distributor Ignitor II w/ non vac- 169.95
Flamethrower II Coil - 37.95
Pertronix 8.0mm plug wires- 29.95

Im not sure what carbs, exhaust, or heads Id want to use though, any ideas?

Well i think you have there a very nice setup. Overengineered, for added reliability. About the carbs, i have read several times that the best option are dual weber idf, perhaps with that setup you should go with 40's or at mos 44's. Dells and Kads are another option, and cheaper too. The exhaust will depend on the heads, I'd stay with 044s, ported and polished with big valves, say, 40 x 35.5. This would work with a 1 1/2 header. Just remember to get a header with a long collector (4'') and a decent sounding muffler.

Oh and by the way now i can't decide between the 2007 and the 1776 for my bug...
PS: have you upgraded the brakes already?

lol you cant decide between a 1776 or a 2007 now?:laugh: thats funny.And no I havent got my brakes yet, when incomtax comes im going to buy everything for my bug that i need to get it up and running on the road then start on the motor as a side project.the brakes I am going to buy just a front disc brake kit w/ drop spindles.

About the heads i was thinking of maybe the Level 5's in aircooled.net, what you think?Would that be ok with the setup i want?Also i was thinking the same as you with the carbs but i wasnt sure.


p.s. to get my bug up and roadworthy, i just need to buy the window pieces i need, found a local shop that selld them, undercoating for floor along with sound deadener, and put my interior in an then put my stock motor in, and buy a rebuild kit fpr my stock carb.by the way, i decided on my wheels, go to the other thread and tell me what you think, i was told it was French look, whatever that is

Well, yes and i can't decide mainly for budget issues. I have a fixed budget for this bug, about 6k, and i also have to pay a lot for shipping to Mexico.
Id say those heads are good, theyre the hi-po street version

Oh yeah the cost of shipping to Mexico has to be a pita man.You guys dont got local shops there?Here in Florida I have only found 2 shops but there close by and not far from me.
Would those heads hurt the reliability at all, if you know?

Just so you know, the combo of stuff I listed above, was about 960.00, I totaled it up last night so I might be off a little on the total of th price, maybe you can use that combo to but with a bigger crank?

well, i've read on many forums and articles that 1776 is the best non-stocker(and non-stroker) combo, and the 2007 is the best "stroker" combo, both for reliability more than power but ofcourse give a pleasent power compared to stock engine.
i'm now on building a 1776, and if i was in a country like usa or germany i would have picked the 2007, because there's no machine shop i know here will do the clearencing/matching job right, and my second reason is the mpg.
for the cases i know that AE-AD-AS is a good choices for any project, i perefere later AS because of the better alloy, just make sure they are standard cut.
my engine specs is still on papers and my head only, and i might take a long time planning, i just hope it will worth it :rolleyes:

this is the main specs so far:
Case: used type1 AS-21
Bore X Sroke: 90.5mmX69mm, 1776cc
Pistons: Mahle 90.5(thick walls), with total seal and teflon locks
Crankshaft: 69mm Forged & C/W
Heads: Stock DP 35X32, single HD springs, or CB 044 40x35 (money talks)
Rockers: HD 1:1.1, & swivle foot adjusters
C/R: 7.7:1 to 8.2:1
Intake: FI MegaSquirt-II V3, controling 4 injectors
Ignition: EDIS driven by MS
Cam: Engle W-110 or Scat C-35, light lifters, berg chromoly push-rods
Rods: Stock
Exhaust: 1.5" merged with single quite pack
Cooling: Stock doghouse shroud w/ stock thermostat, & full-flow external oil cooler controled by MS
Other: lightened flywheel, full flow filter, maybe deep sump

this setup is supposed to rev smoothly till ~5500 with stock heads and +6k with CB heads, well i guess :(

the efi is more reliable than the carbs thru all the rev range, and ofcourse more effecient, maybe megasquirt is a pita to tune and install, but you'll get what worth your effort.
the c/w crank is a must for a high-rev engine for sure, and you will need it forget(not cast) when 1776 or higher, and friction also will be a problem on high revs, and the bad oil will get the engine to a fast end, then you'll need a good full-flow filter to reduce the friction effects happens due to small particles.
for the cams, we have to put in mind that our bugs can't be fitted with a vtec :p , that's why the cam should be selected due to your driving condition, other parameters will affects this but the cam is the most, then the carb(or TB) size.
type4 is ofcourse the best choice in all cases(street or track), but i always think of it as a very expensive choice becuase you will not just get a type4 engine and bolt it in, you need a nice larg list for this convesion, and also type4 parts is very expensive compared to type1.
turbo is also a good idea specially when added to a reliable setups like 1776 or 2007, but the cons of the turbo is that you will suffer on high speeds, and if you pick a large turbo to fix this, you will suffer from it's lag :( , again it's a matter of how you will drive your car.
for you main question, you'll have to use magic spells to tell exactly how much power your setup will give loool , you will get only estimations or a "range" close enough to the main power. for a "tepical" well built 1776 you may get a 120hp from it, most common project with a 044 heads, w110 cam, dual 40mm idf and merged 1.5" header, will give 90-100hp and maybe 110hp.
also a cooler engine is a longer life one, but it don't make any sense when cooling the oil, and forget about the heads. we know that heads gets really hot faster that oil inside the engine. cb heads is known to be stronger and it's fins is well designed to transfer heat faster than stock heads, stock style thermostat is also a perfect choice here, you should also use electronic ignition wich will give you stable timing. go efi and your engine will never be happier.
i have another option wich will sound a bit weird, did you think of converting your engine to a subaru or a wbx or even a golf mk engine???? it will cost a lot cheaper and ofcourse more reliable and drivable power.

i hope i helped a little, and good luck in your project...

Michael

Thanks Mike I did think of the subaru motors but I thought they would be more expensive and also I dont really want to cut on my bug. I have my mind set on a 1776cc, the site aircooled.net says you can get up to 150hp with there heads but I dont know what setup would be needed for that.My driving..um Im a rabit at take off but I drive normal, that make sense?:laugh: