Bonze Main Bearings
 

Hi, does anyone know anyone making Bronze main bearing for the type IV engine?

There was a post on the cal-look.com forum where lowbugget.com was suppose to do some for the t1 engine and then t4 but i don't know what became of those plans.

Low Budget
 

Hi, I some time ago, called low budget. They himmed and hawed around about answering the question on the type IV main beraing. Maybe stock, but way down the road for custom sizes. I believe my case is 20 over. In my heart of heart, I feel that bronze bearing is the way to go. Man pople continue to not want to get the type IV up and runnig. I do like the Subie, but a 3 liter turbo bug is my main quest. Jorge at EMS also stated that they were working on a type IV bronze bearing, but again stock first, bummer:(

Well if George at EMS can make the bronze bearings in standard i will be glad as my case is standard. Also i was on the ultimateaircooled forums when Low bugget said they were going to make some and Dominic said he had some made when he was drag racing and that they were the best bearing he has ever had.

God i do hope someone makes some because i would really love some good bearings to use.

I hear you
 

Well, the bornze bearings should not be that much of a problem. They have spec's. Its slow coming around, presently I'm waiting on upgraded 356 styled lifters and a set of Puater rockers and I will have everything I need for my 3 liter. I believe it was Dominic at low bugget that I spoke with, could be wrong but I think it was him about 4 months ago. If you hear anything, please remember me and send me a message:o and I'll do the same:)

For your 3ltr engine which liners will you be using

My own
 

Hi, I had a good friend share the spec's on his ottinger cylinder. I wanted to have made some of my own using the spec's. However finding a tried and true Aluminum was imposible, and having that meterial receive coating of Nickisil. My last effort was 6061-T685 I believe. The T685 I guessing on, but in my storeage I have the certifacate of the type of Alum. I do need to have them cryoed and coated.
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I don't know how well the cylinders will hold up, but I think they will do just fine after the coating is applied.

How is everything, did you hear anything on the bronze bearings.

Bearings
 

Well, every body says they have someone that are making them and are just aroud the corner from bringing them to market. I'm tired of waiting, it looks like everyone it testing the waters by seeing if there is a need. I contacted National Bronze today, the guy was not to much help. National Bronze says per their website they can make anything. I don't know what I'm doing when choosing metals. Jorge at EMW says his guy is testing, but that's on stock sizes. Who has stock size when going high performance? I even had the bushing install into my case for the 356 lifters but EMW don't have them, John at aircooled .net only has two. I'm bating really good today. The three liter was supposed to be on the back burner. I have a 2110 type one I need to put together and sell and even a 2332 type one also. I need to get the 2110 home and start putting it together. I still need rocker arm, lifters, through bolts for the type IV engine.
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I can't wait to get behind this!
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I'm not sure if the number two will have a 2332 type one or maybe a 2.5 type IV with 1.7 heads. Do you know someone making the main bearings?

I have 3 engines to build a t1 2ltr something a t4 2056cc or 2316 maybe a 2.7ltr then finally a 2.1ltr waterboxer. These guys need to get off their asses and do what they are doing who
cares what the other is doing, we need quality bearings.

I would like to have bronze bearings. I had to have the main bearing modded due to the oil squirters. Since the oil squirter are not standard on the type IV main bearings, the machinst kind of bucthed the main bearings creating the offset hole.

Hi effvee

So that it's clear, EMW is having only the thrust bearings made in bronze, not complete sets.

And I believe Engine Plus carries the 356 style lifters for the Type lV...

Ah! so this is the center main then. I do hope that they will be made with the correct crush. Who knows maybe later they will produce an entire set.

Hay Richard, I put off to long the 356 lifters money problems (:() no one seems to have them in the states. I hope you have not forgot me and Engine Plus:angry:. I have a machinst friend that will try and make me a complete set. I have a stock .020 over set in regular meterial. What I need is a good choice in Bonze alloy. I was looking for Beryillum, but I have learned that is copper. Richard, do you know of any Bonze that will make a good set of bearings?
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My machinst made these for me with ease on a regular lath.
If I can get my hands on a good set of 356 lifters can your guy laser them for me? Stay in touch, good to hear from you.

No, the thrust bearings on the Type lV are on the flywheel end and are where the end play is set between the flywheel and bearing with flywheel shims, the center mains are already steel backed so no need to do those in bronze, center thrust are installed on Type 1 motors when flanged cranks are used.

But you have to be careful now, the I think it's Mahle bearings that have been coming out for the Type lV are no longer steel back center mains.

It's not only the correct crush, but the materials expansion rates, a bronze thrust bearing was made and the wrong combination of materials were used and the bearing expanded too much and sized on the crank.

So it's a matter of finding the right combination of materials to get the correct expansion rate. For example valve guides are made of bronze, actually silicon bronze.

No, I remember your issue with E Plus...:rolleyes:

As to the Beryllium Copper that is used for valve seats for Titanium valves, it's like around 80% copper with something like 3% Beryllium and 17% of other materials for example to hold the materials together.

My friend no longer works at the EDM shop, he has moved back to Germany. And lasers were not used, it was an electrical charge (Electrical Discharge Machining) on little tiny copper rods or wire.

As to the 356 style lifters, I recommend you pass on those for your Turbo build, the spring pressure needed for boost I think is to much for those lifters.

I recommend you have your bronze lifter bushings machined out to Type 1 lifter diameter and run Tool Steel Type 1 lifters, they will handle the spring pressure and Turbo Spool far better than the 356 style lifters. There are a number of people who carry them.

I liked your cyl's, except for the stud pattern. And your going to need to mock those up on your motor, and I am talking about the crank installed at least one rod per side to determine how much they will have to be shortened to set your deck, due to they need to be machined before you have them plated.

I'll say one thing that I didn't like with my cylinders. Jorge had the Machinst trim my fins. I did not instruct Jorge to trim my fines

You did say fix the cyl's so their usable, since you were not taking them back to the machinist who screwed them up to begin with, and the fins had to be cut in order for you to use them.


If you had tried to mock up the cyl's with the studs you would have found the problem. Jorge had asked me to mock them up on my case to check for any issues with mounting and becase my case was cut for 103mm cyl's and it had the long stroker studs installed.


There are a left & right cyl, the left cyl fit no. 2 & no. 3 cyl position, the right cyl will fit the no. 1 & 4 cyl position in the case, that is partially because of the where the fins are cut so they can sit next to each other and the other side where the notch is to clear the case, then there is also because of the well know fact that the Type lV has the off set stud pattern of which the bottom 2 studs are wider than they are at the top, which means the cyl's can not be fliped upside down .

Your machinist that had drilled the stud holes and trimmed the cyl's for clearance made you 4 left cyl's, and the only fix was to machine all the cyl fins the same so they would fit the stud pattern and have the capacity to cool the same.






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Trimming
 

I have not fitted the cylinders with studs. Since I have not done this yet, I may stand corrected. I received the stud pattern from Gregg Riddle, and had a blue print made in order for a CNC progarmmer to input. If what you say is correct, I will need to have a mechine shop do 8 more sets (bummer:o). I will get some ARP bolts and go to the next level.

Richard, you once gave me a name of a rebuilder of speed-o and tach. I tried to find the contact again but don't remember the name. He makes custom gauge face plates. Do you still have or remember his name or site?

"As to the 356 style lifters, I recommend you pass on those for your Turbo build, the spring pressure needed for boost I think is to much for those lifters".

Richard, am I to understand the new 39 gram 356 styled lifter won't be able to withstand the spring rate?

The stud pattern was correct, but what has to be done is the fin designed has to be mirrored, and what happen was the fin design was mirrored which is shown buy your pics with them installed in the case and so was the stud pattern but shouldn't of been. So the fins get mirrored and the stud pattern does not, to get a better idea what I am talking about check against a set of stock cyl's

What do you mean about doing 8 more sets ?


This place does good work.

http://www.paspeedo.com/porsche914combi.htm




For the money you have in this motor, it's not worth even taking a chance. I have a set of the E Plus 356 Style lifters & the New design Aluminum bushings, and I will run 110 pds seat & it will be 270 pds over the nose with Beehive springs but I am running N/A. You should have at the very least 170 pds seat and at least 350 pds over the nose and those lifters are not going to handle those pressures very long especially when the turbo spools and the rpms jump.

The Tool Steel Type 1 are much stronger, and better than that would be to go roller...:cool:

But it's your decision.

udo Becker
 

Is there any copmany state side selling tool steel lifters?



All of my gauges are in good working order. I need custom face plates, I bought some dual cht/egt gauges and I would like to have everything uniform, it possible.

A couple of Tool Steel lifter options in the link:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifie...tButton=Search

If you would of search their site, you would of found they do custom face plates.
http://www.paspeedo.com/porschecustomcoloring.htm

Edm
 

Richard is it possible for me to go to the shop your friend use to work and have them perform the service on my new lifters. I'd really like to have the lifters drilled (with EDM) like I had the 356 lifters done.

I don't think it's necessary and I don't recommend it. And if you go with the Tool Steel Type 1 lifters, just leave them alone. They are not broke, so don't fix them.

And I have seen a couple sets of Type 1 lifters that went bad and it looked like it was because of the oiling hole ?

But if you have to have it done, any EDM shop can do it.

http://www.qualityedm.com/

http://www.manta.com/cmap/mryctbd/reliable-e-d-m

Hi Richard, well you know me:o, I'm still batting zero, but what the hay:D. With all of the oil pressure my oil pump will be capable of putting out having extra oil for lobs and rockers I don't think will hurt anything. My PSI regulator will be set for 80 I don't want that oil pump 33 or 35mm just bi-passing oil back into the sump. I'll have the lifter resurface for sure, thanks.
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Lifters
 

Ok I have the type one lifters, but I'm told that I may need new mechinst services of which may cause the old bushing total removal and new ones. Wow it feel like I'm doing everything twice bummer.

Also I will need to re-think the oil pressure regulator. My needs are to maintain 80 psi, shag, the person I bought the lifters from stated Jack Sacchette filter housing had an internal 80 psi setting. For me the problem of oil pressure regulating has been traced to dissimular metals (steel piston) Alum housing and there expansion rate.

Me again:D, I now have heard another way to go is with BMW bearings. Can you shed some light on this? From what I have heard all of the bearing will be halves and using BMW steelbacked bearings; as an update/better mouse trap:o.

When I had my case done, my bearings cam all Alum.

BMW bearings for the type IV case
 

Ok, now I have learned that, only a type IV case using stadard bearing, can use the BMW bearings:confused:. I was told that I will need to stick with stock 20 over bearing.

effvee which of the BMW bearing can be used in the t4.

Hey Francelle, good to see your making progress on your motor.I agree with Richard on the lifters.Light lifters are an advantage,yes. If you insist on running the 356 lifters with turbo you will have to re-think some things.Titanium valves to reduce weight and therefore spring pressure.But how will it hold up in the long run? In your 103x88 (iirc) application you are forced to run a cam with a 1" or smaller base circle which makes the ramps steeper and harder on the valvetrain,more spring pressure is required to keep the lifter on the cam.That's one reason why I gave up on the 3 Liter turbo project and switched to a 2320cc 102x71.If I ever do decide on more power than the stock crank and rods can cope with I will just go with the same size crank but in billet from Moldex and Pauter rods.All of which is unlikely to happen...
Next question is: why do you want so much oil pressure? What do you expect to gain from it? I would concentrate more on cooling.60-70psi is plenty.
What main bearing size do you need? Std?

I'm wrong
 

Hi, I won't be able to use BMW bearings at all:mad:. I have .020 over sive mains.

I choose the Mazda oil pressure regulator, set at 80psi. I'll have 8 quarts to run with, and oil squirters, one day I hope to find out like Walter did. If I can find a business willing to laser my lifters and be reasonable, I'll have them done. Oil on the lobes fave can't hurt, and hopefullly to the positive. One person said too much oil pressure will keep the engine hot. I want it by-passed only after it been through the oil cooler. My Jeep ran 70psi all the time, I liked it, the engine ran quite.

One of the problems with not knowing is, not really knowing. My new size is 104X88 due to my machinst bo-bo, so now have to order a new set of pistons(double damn:eek:).

And then I have my cylinders made from just word alone on the stud pattern, only to have them wrong, damn:angry:. I really like the wide fins, but again another hard choice for not knowing.

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Can anyone in Germany get me a sec of Klaus lower tins (see)?

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If you are running a 911 style fan and a good shroud you won't need those tins,they dont work well with other shrouds.They only work with the Klaus shroud because there is a hose that goes from the shroud to the tin.With your aluminum cylinders you won't need tins anyway and they wouldn't fit properly either.Also, you want air to pass through the cylinders from above.It doesn't make sense to blow air from the bottom that collides with the downward air.The heat needs to escape from the cylinders and heads and not twirl around all over the place.
Send me the specs on your pistons,if they fit my application I may be interested in buying them from you.

Pistons
 

Hi Mark, the pistons are not for sell, I have other cylinders that they will fit. One of my major problems were for the two set of heads that I have. The cylinders will fit my third set of heads and pistons, but that's down the road. My heads were opened up for the 105's, thus I had to have my machinst make four rings to compensate they cylinders. The machinst that did the work was working from a very large lath. I had Jorge at EMW bring them back into specs, thus the new 104s. Ok, if Mr. Klus won't work and I still feel I will need some sort of deflection, I will maybe use the type one or type IV deflectors. I have Walters early version shroud for his early project. However, given the fact that the 911/11 blade has very nice seperators, I may just make four runners to each cylinder. Either way Mark, I need to get my 2110 turbo out of the way and a re-vamped 2332.

The outside diameter of 103mm,104mm and 105mm cylinders are the same.Why did you have to use rings or am I misunderstanding something? My Deutz cylinders have a larger outside diameter than the Mahle,JE and AA cylinders so I had to machine the case and heads a little larger.It sounds like you have had a lot set backs with your engine besides the EP heads issue which I remember too well.I hope you have better luck now and finally get it finished.
Back to the deflector issue...deflectors are useless with such big engines,because they are simply too small! The engine is wider, the cylinders longer.Trust me Remmele doesn't use them either.Anything with a stroker crank and longer cylinders the deflectors become more of a hazard than an improvement in cooling.Also you have custom cylinders so the off the shelf stuff won't fit anyway,at least not properly...

Added ring
 

Hi Mark, the added ring is due to way back when; Gregg Riddle of Rimco offered a wider sealing surface for the type IV cylinders. It was to add a extra sealing area.
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These are the cast iron 94's opened up to 96's and with a added sealing ring. I also had the heads and cylinder dual "O" ring grooved.
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These 2.0 head were opened up for the extra sealing ring. I also had the 1.7 heads done the same way. But then I got greedy and wanted more bore and stroke.

I have read somewhere the lower side of the cylinder do need air routing, so I'm going to address it some how and when I get to that point. I need to have the heads CC and see how much of my combustion chamber were enlarged in my porting. I want 8 compression, and possibly zero piston to cylinder height; I hope my heads were opened up enough to gain the 8 compression ratio. So now you know why the extra ring on the latest version. and this is it no matter what:o
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Mark couldn't the bottom of the liners be machined down so they are the standard fit of the 103mm to 105mm bore. Why i ask is i dont want to take too much from the case. The heads i was thinking of utilizing the wider sealing surface of the deutz to help seal the liners to the head.

For some reason i am still thinking of using dual plug 993 or is it 964 heads to build a overfly engine.

Actually,after I had posted that it got me thinking,I went back and measured my case.The spigots are still the standard size for 103 and 105mm cylinders.I had machined the heads larger.I did just machine the heads for the larger diameter Deutz cylinders and machined the bottom of the cylinders to fit the case. If you´re wanting an overfly engine based on the type 4 then talk to Russ Fellows (Bobtail ?).He has done the same thing.Ralf Noll from ADV Performance (here in Germany) builds and sells complete overfly engines.His engine however is his own developement with his own case,cams and internals.A really fantastic engine,though! A type 4 based overfly would probably be cheaper.However,then you are starting from scratch again and won´t be able to use your current cylinders either.To be honest with you,I wouldn´t go through all the trouble and you have had enough of it so far,right? I would get JE pistons and cyinders and a set of Pauter Pro heads and be done with it.You will be able to run 500-600hp - who needs more? Pauter is just around the corner from you and you won´t have any shipping hassles etc. with JE either.If it gets too hot on the street run water/methanol injection additionally.Seriously - as much as I like the overfly engine and what Russ Fellows did - at this point I think you would be loading up a whole lot of work and stress and another year or 2 of waiting and hassle.Just my 2 cents and I mean that with respect for you.

Nice pics by the way! Slap them on and just get JE pistons and cylinders and be ready to go!