rack & pinion steering dampener
 

Hi,

I have an opportunity to get a rust-free 1302 minus fenders and engine. I had been looking for a 1975 1303 because I am partial to rack and pinion steering.

I conducted a search on this forum and found a thread on making a conversion on a 1302 to a r&p system. I printed and saved the results. I also noticed a thread about a steering dampener (also called a damper within this thread) which ended with an unanswered question as to why this is necessary or an advantage with a r&p car.

So, here I am proposing the same question hoping for an answer.

BTW, the custom shop which has the above-mentioned 1302 for sale frowned on the conversion saying it was too imposing if not downright near impossible. This was part of my motive for printing the thread.

Thanks,
René

The 75-79 R&P does not have a damper, was that your question?
The conversion isn't that involved and not impossible. In fact, Steve C has done it to his 1302.

Actually, I have read and re-read the thread pertaining to the conversion. I have also printed and saved it.

During my search, another thread talked about installing a damper to a r&p system. One entry asked why it was necessary (or, at least, an advantage). That question never was answered, so I am re-posting that question.

Is it better; is it worth it?

Hello:

I have heard that the R&P steering on the Beetle can get quite "lively" if the vehicle is used off-road. There is a lot of feedback from the wheels into the steering wheel. Some people have found it beneficial to install two dampers alongside the tie-rods to minimise the motions. Dampers will increase the steering effort a little too. (Damper is the correct name by the way; a "dampener" is actually a device which makes things wet, and is normally referered to as a hose pipe!).

If you're not contemplating Desert Racing or entering Baja events I don't think you'll need to install steering dampers.

DaveM

Steering damper
 

I have a 1303 from model year 1975 with rack and pinion steering. The rack and pinion is a very nice system and play-free also at maximum turning. Its also very light to operate, but can also shutter at speed or small bumps (not that I have/had this problem tho). There is a reputable tuner in germany that offers a optional steering damper for these cars (1303 75-79). I have bought and installed it on my car and it is an absolute delight. The steering is just as light, but the steering returns faster when coming out of a turn and is less prone to tremble when a bump in the road is encountered at speed. At high speed (and I build the car for that) it feels more secure. The device consits of a Bilstein gas damper and is mounted at the steering rack at one end and a chassis bolt at the other. The damper unit doesn't give you less ground clearance and costed me appr. € 150,--. Oliver Knuf can get you probably one if you would want so.

When restoring my car and the one of my buddy, who has a '73 super, showed that the most difficult to modify would be the chassis front 'bulge'. The '75 -> supers have a lower chassis at the front where the rack & pinion resides. This is 2mm steel with a strengthening double steel plate (also 2mm thick) welded inside the bulk head. This is an important and difficult structural part of the chassis, since the 'flatter' bulkhead makes the chassis weaker than the pre-'75 if it would not have been strengthened inside from the factory. Other than that, you can pretty much imagene what other parts you would need. The double flexible shaft that mounts from the rack&pinion to the steering colomn is another part you would need. The sheet metal under the tank is therefore also a little different. It can be done, but it is a lot of work...
I hope I have given you the answers you asked for from my experience.
Walter

The book "Käfer Tuning" by Helmut Horn states that the R&P steering has more turn lock-to-lock than the older system. He also states that an older style steering with a small steering wheel is much quicker on the track than the R&P. It was this one paragraph in his book that made me loose interest in converting my '73 to the more modern R&P of the 75-79 models.

Superman,
Have you ever felt the difference personally? I don't know what you've read, but I think he must be the only author that feels that way.
Furthermore we should probably not go into an argument over what is the better steering system, since there are too many threads/post that waste time on such discussions and it is helping nobody...
Walter

Hey I'm Superman :silly:

Just kidding, yes I have driven all three versions of the Super's suspension and will agree that the R&P is the tightest and best feeling. Helmut Horn is a Käfer Cup car builder in Germany that wrote a book (in German) and I just posted what he said in the book. Due to the work involved and his input I decided against converting my car.

Here is the quote from the book, in broken English translation:

"With consideration of the fact that the old steering element operated noticeably more directly, one can even state, it was inferior to the newer in nothing. From steering stop to steering stop one must nevertheless move the steering wheel of a beetle with steering rack a half revolution further. That corresponds to an additional 10 % sportier translations; small steering wheels supply the best example of it. Clearly, why the "crack-hard " engine sportsmen are not at all so inspired by the steering rack."

I had to find this pic on disk. I got the book while in Europe.

If I ever fitted a rack, it would be a small aftermarket unit designed for kit cars. It would need to be compact, so I would need to mod the body as little as possable, an it would have a much 'quicker' 'ratio', than that off a stearing box. Otherwise to me it wouldn't be worth it.

Superman,
Now that you've showed the cover, I recognise it. That is a very good, if not one of the best, books about the suspension of bugs there are.
I don't regard the total revolutions of the steering wheel all that important. A good feel (feed-back) from the steering as to what is happening with your suspension at the moment, I find much more important.
Nice to know, you can read german as well :-)
Walter

Whew, a lot of good info.

Dave M - I am not intending my project for off-road use. If I did, I would go with a standard Beetle or a Thing (Type 181). The posts I retrieved from my search listed damper and dampener. Since I am not technically savvy, I wasn't sure if something was being dampened or lubed or whatever. Thanks for the clarification.

Wally & Superman - Great info. It will be printed and saved. Oh, and I don't mind arguments if it is info being lobbed back-and-forth. It was several such "arguments" which led me to wanting a Type IV engined Super Beetle -- much to my regular mechanic's chagrin. Also, I will want to find a copy of Käfer Tuning. I will worry about translation later as there is precious little on the strutted cars.

Chris Percival - I'm curious about which aftermarket unit(s) you were talking about. One custom shop (with which I have some apprehensions despite never having them perform any work for me) dismissed my inquiry into such a plan by stating those rack and pinion systems are designed for 800-pound rail buggies.

Thank you all for the great responses!

-René

After a quick search, here is an example that fits an existing housing http://www.autotech.com/stracks.htm, here are some kits from Quafe http://www.quaife.co.uk/catalogue/page60.htm, here are some for minis http://www.minisportshop.com/Minispo...aries_485.html etc. I know there are some aftermarket, general purpose kits out there too..

How about the woodward products? They have RHD available too.

http://www.woodwardsteering.com/

Tim

Great stuff, Chris and Tim. Thanks. I'll check into these. I'll try Woodward first if for no other reason, they're within an hour of where I live. (BTW, I'm sort of wedded to LHD.)

-René

I thought you were in the UK, Oasis. Keep me post with what you get because I am interested in Woodward R&P steering too but they are 10 thousand miles from where I live.:(

Tim

As it turns out, they used to be within an hour of me. Now thay are a two-day drive. I contacted three shops which are distributors of Woodward R & P products within a 12-hour drive of me. One responded.

My questions were:
(1) Does Woodward make a rack that can be used
on a VW Super Beetle?
(2) Do you perform installations, and if so, would
you be willing to so on my project?
(3) If either or both of the above answers are "no,"
do you have any suggestions?

The one response was:
Woodward does not make rack that is a direct replacement,
however if you fabricate a rack plate on the chassis, any
of the shorttrack racks will work. We do not perform any
fabrication work here.

He also went on to suggest a shop in NY state (3-9 hours away) that might do such a fabrication.

-René

I think you have a lot of choice with LHD but be careful with the length of the rack to avoid adverse suspension geometry change. Also, probably you need to do some modifications to the spare wheel well.

Tim

Although I am shying away from the 1302 in my original post because I think I would like a r&p set-up (and add the damper as per another previous post), I received another reply to my question on Woodward's r&p. Here is the edited version:

All [of] the Woodward Steering racks that I am familiar with are
built to suit front steer [set-ups]. If the Shroederwagon is front
steer mechanically, the rack could be made to work.

The reply went on describing a Studebaker pick-up conversion and a name (no number or address) to contact. My questions are:

What does "front steer" mean? It can't mean steering with the
front wheels, can it? Is he putting me on ... or down? I'm not
sure what to make of the "Shroederwagon" reference.

I politely thanked him for his "interesting response" leaving the door open that it could be sincere or sarcastic.

(I haven't totally closed my mind to the 1302 as it would be a perfect inexpensive starting point for what will be an expensive albeit worthwhile project. Finding a suitable '75 is starting to annoy me.)

Thanks again in advance,
René