Newbie to Aircooled, Looking for suspension info Handling!
 

I'm new here, I'm looking to get a 1972 VW Superbeetle. I currently have a 1991 Jetta GLi VR6 that I am parting out with full Shine setup.

My question is:

What suspension options are there for the SB? Everyone I talked to said that Topline was prety much the best. But I called Shine racing (I consider them to be the best watercooled suspension for handling) And they said they were junk. And didn't have any real good reffences for aircooled.

Two things they tought me though.. Lowering a macpherson strut suspesnion (control arms arn't parallel) is bad, and poly bushings restrict movement and should really should just upgrade to a bearing kit or leave new stock.

Who makes the best suspension parts for the SBs? I'm looking for great street performace/weekend warrior that I woudn't have to toss much money at to make my detacaded race car. What springrates are good? (IE in my car I've got 300lb fronts and 200lb rears on bilsteins) I havn't made my tire choice yet, the SB I'm looking at has 3 inch wider fenders front and back and I need to figure out how wide of a tire I can put on the front an back, and what the size difference would be.

Any words of wizdom?

In another forum. I was reccomended to find and talk to a guy named Erik Roberts? Anyone know him? What he runs?

I really can't help you with the SB front end questions since I'm building up a standard beetle for racing. Although I can suggest the late 944 aluminum trailing arms for pushing out the rear track. I have 18" X 10" et 65 wheels with no spacers on my chassis with plenty of clearance between the rim and the chassis. Someone else can help you out with the front end questions. Try using the search function also, Your questions might already have been answered. :)

I've prety much been though the whole thread to 2002, I didn't find anythig too clear. Springrates don't seem to really be discust. Just lowering springs (or what I think would lower..Eibach springs, or Jamex..)

Thank you for the help on the rear, I'm curious as well how much lighter the alumnum control arms are? Any benift there in unsprung weight?

Also is the rear susp, Semi-Trailing Arm or is it "regular" trailing arm (are the arms at and angle in preportion to the car, or straight?)

They are semi-trailing arms just like your VW ones. The arms themselves are lighter than the steel VW ones but once you add the rotor, caliper and e-brake hadrware they are 5lbs heavier per side (48lbs per side) than VW ones. Not bad though for the extra width and 11" rotors. :D

not bad at all.

I'm still looking for springrate, strut info. even coilovers? The SB I'm looking at getting has 3" wider fenders front and back. I'm wondering where the point if dimishing returns are with wide tires on these. And what kind of suspension I'd need to adiquately keep a 265 (those are on the back.. that will change. I only want one or 2 sizes biger in the front) on the gound!

A Kerscher front strut is more than likely what you are after. They use an adjustable front spring(Eibach). Other than that a Topline MaxxStrut is the other choice. If you want to talk springrate call John at topline. To spite what you may have heard, he know a 1302-1303 very well and can give you the Low-down on them.

Go to http://www.superbeetlesonly.com/, and read the forum archives. That should yeald many answers to your questions.

Theres some good stuff there. What do guys here have to say about springrates? Where can I find rear springs (or whatever those are called) for the car? 120lb - 150lb fronts?

Where is the point of dimishing returns in regards to tire size for these cars? (I'm looking to fill up the massive 3 in wider fenders)

There is a tech article on the main page (germanlook.com) called The Perfect Suspension. You will find lots of info on different torsion bars, sway bars, etc.

You can use the 944 rear torsion bars for some added stiffness in the rear suspension. They are cheaper than aftermarket VW ones. The VW comes with 22mm bars and the 944s bars run from 23mm to 29mm in diameter depending on model.

That article is about regular beetles though?

I'm curious, how does a torsion bar rear end work? There is a coil spring there right?

nope. there is a spring plate attached to the trailing arm. the inside of the spring plate tub (which slides into the torsion tube) is splined and the torsion bar is inserted into the spring plate on one side, rides through the torsion tube and slides into a splined section of the torsion tube on the inboard side. how's that for a run on sentence? the torsion bar then twists between the splined sides to provide the needed tension to push the susension down. the downward travel is limited by a stop for the spring plate on the lower edge of the shock tower. hopefully that made sense.

Here is a picture of my chassis while I was setting it up for the 944 trailing arms. The bar sticking out of the chassis is the torsion bar. It is basicly a rod of spring steel with serations on either end. The large splines are on the inside and are held in place by the center of the torsion tube. The smaller splines are on the outside of the torsion bar and are held in place by the spring plates. Their resistance to twisting is what VW and porsche used for rear suspension springs. :)

That's uhh....different. I'm going to have to buy the SB just to take it apart now :p What's the deal with rear suspension then? How can I beef that up? Whats the deal with these 935 spring plates I read about? Is that prety much top of the line mod I can do? (with 944 trailing arms) What are the 944 spring plates? or 911 (never heard it meantioned thought of it for curiosity)?

I'm also looking for info if these can be converted to standard setup (coilover or coil/strut) Seems it can be done but is there any benifit..

The 944 rear suspension fits no nice because porsche used the beetle rear suspension in the 924 with little modification. It was then upgraded in the later 944s and 968s but it will all fit with a little work. The 911 set-up is too different to make it work and the 944 parts are so much cheaper. I'm not too knowledgable about the 935 set-up but I think it is a heim joint design so the suspension has more adjustability.

I beefed mine up with a käfer cup brace and some plate steel on the inside of my shock towers to make up for the metal removed to clear the 944 spring plates. Hope this is helping... :)

Have a look in the suspension galleries. On the first page, 8 pictures in, is picture of a device that can eliminate the torsion bars and enable you to use a coil over shock as the only rear suspension. It basically fits on where the springplate fits on to the tiorsion bar tube, l and allow the trailing arm to pivot like normal. To get spring rates you would ideally need to get the car weighed on all four corners and then have someone knowegable work it all out for you..

There is another picture on page 3..

So... Why would I want to swap out rear trailng arms for a porshe and all that jazz? Their stiffer, ie less body roll? Wider track? How is it rated? Like 200lbs?

I'm reading the perfect suspensuion article..

"I am going under the philosophy that the early 911 will be a close match to the Beetle in terms of weight bias and handling characteristics. Of course given that the front suspension is different we have to allow for some creativity in this area and infer things that are similar." IS that true?

IS the 911 a good handling car? What is a good handeling porsche? (Well I mean better then the average after all....it's a Porsche!)


In the article it is said that the torsion bars need proper adjustment. Who can do this adjustment? What needs to be done? Is this an extra complex system? What is considerd to be the best handling rear setup to begin with? What do you sugest for the front (ie 150 lb springs..?)

I went with them because I wanted the wide body look and I wanted the biggest tires I could fit on a beetle. :D Another plus is the fact that you get the ride height adjustability/ camber adjusability and toe adjusability of the 944.

Just look at the race record of the 911...... I think it has been the dominate force in GT racing as long as it hase been alive.
The short responce would be "Does a hobby horse have a wooden #!@$".

Well, Theres an interesting responce to " I wanted the biggest tires I could fit under a beetle" The beetle I'm looking at has 3 inches wider fedners on all 4 corners. That's ALOT of wheel well. If the 944 stuff alows me to put in a big tire. Where is the point of dimishing returns with this car? Can I get a tire that is too big? When does the suspension ability to keep such a large tire on the ground become a problem? What about unsprung weight from a heavy tire and wheel vs the light beetle?

Which seems to be the more common/best setup for a nice firm ride. And very controled body lean for the rear?

ok, so I've done some reading..

How do I make the 944/968 rear suspension work? Which would be the best to choose from early, late 944, 951, 968?

How do I install it? Do I just use the torson bar and put it in with the vw "chamber" if you will and put the control arms on with springplates? How do I make the springplates work?

Is it better to use 935 spring plates or any others? Or different control arms

So they say Topline is junk...hmmm. :sleep: :(

Sounds like you want a Porche. :rolleyes:

Where/Why was this said? I'm looking to do a Topline conversion on my 1302.

There it is.

Oh, so a water-cooled specialist poo-poo'd Topline. If that's it, that ain't much. I have questions for my 1302 but I don't want to hijack this thread.

Thanks.

I have no knowledge about h2o handling companys whatsoever, but Topline specializes in SUPER BEETLES, and with specialization comes expertise.
I've put quit a few miles on my Maxx struts and Topline 7/8" swaybar and they did me well. I only have one gripe and that is the small springs make a lot of racket on rough roads at low speeds, I can deal with that.
I guess you can say I'm on Toplines jock, cause I am. Any company that supports and researches better products for my favorite car I'm going to be supporting them.
Myst you can always find a 944 for hella cheap, throw on a turbo, Shine up the suspension and I bet you will be in less money then building up a GL 1302 with a NA engine and 944 suspension. You probally won't be as happy with the 02 either.
I'm not in it to find the best car to build up, I'm in it to build up my car as best as I can, cause thats where my loves at. I could care less about 240 sx's, miata's, 325i's, m3's, supras....I am a aircooled VW(just cause I'm not a fan of the current company and their products doesn't change who I am) guy through and through. It sure would suck if you get halfway through your project and you change your mind cause you realized how much time and money is going to be involved. If you stay your course and build up that 1302 we'll be here to guide you along the way, but really think about it.

Nick