944 Everything? + History
 

So the 944's Suspension is baised off the Superbeetles. Can I use the 944 Control arms on a super beetle? What about the front struts? (I've read many things saying yes with mods on the front sturts. What does it take?)

Sence the 944 is 50/50. Can or should I add weight to the front of the superbeetle? Would that improve things? It'd be as if, suspension wise I''d have a REALLY! light 944. (Although the sprung to unsprung weight would be HORRID!)?

It simply blows my mind how the Porshe 911 handles soo well, (as does the 944) but All you hear about is the 911 and it's weight dist isnt' very good!

I beleive adding weight is not the answer to make a super handle better. Relocate the battery into the trunk area, keep the spare, concentrate on the weight reduction on the rear as much as possible (I'll be keeping the stock steel fenders in front, and the stock german steel front hood, as well as a steel front bumper, and run carbon or f/g in the rear, as well as the rear three windows lexan). If 50/50 weight biasing is not attainable proper spring rates front:rear will help. From what I've read it's a little hoaky to use the 944 strut, plus the spring rate is way too stiff for the front of a super, Maxx or Kersher is the ticket. You keep ignoring one of Porsche's greatest handling cars of all time, the 914. I think it was Nurdingberg(?) 1970 three 914-6's competed and 2 finished first and second in their class and one finished 3 overall, don't quote me on that.
Believe me when I say a properly setup 1302/1303 will stick to the road like none other and a little rear bias is always fun when you want to have fun and induce some oversteer. I've seen stars from pulling G's in my 1302, and I can't wait till I have a healthier power plant so that I can use some more of the chassis's capabilities.

Nick

The rear weight bias is an advantage in the hands of a skilled driver. :)

I've prety much goten the idea that for a kickbutt handing car, you should use Porshe Parts. So what parts from what Porsches can I use?

Some of them came with upgraded suspension components stock. (IE S, S2, Turbo, and 968) And I don't mind having every single piece of the suspension come from a different car as long as they work together.

Here is a pic of my 944 rear end.

944 late aluminum trailing arms.
944 spring plates and torsion covers.
944 torsion bars.
944 sway bar with custom mounts.
Käfer cup brace.
Shock tower braces.
Relocated bumb stops.
Modified VW shocks.

What you want to use from the 944 are the (front) spindles out and (rear) trailing arms out, this is all. [out = to the brakes/wheels]

so why do people use 30MM torson bars (aftermarket) Srping plates (from other Porsches even), Torsion covers..etc..

What is a spring plate? What does it even do?

Some people have even questioned the use of 944 arms. Can you put bigger torson bars in the stock beetle arms? What is the benifit of having 944 arms?

Sence I'm buying parts anyway, and am willing to make every part from a different car as long as it all works well together. Would I get any upgrades if I got anything from a 924, 944, 968, 931, 951, or 952? or any other VW?

Just for curiosties sake. What rotors and calipers will bolt to the 944's stuff. Can I use 911 Rotors and calipers? 912? The biiiig suckers? (Way overkill on a track/street twisty road car right?)

Ok, there is a lot of info on brake selections, this where the search function is helpful. Also for more info on the 944 interchangability as well as brake info check out Micheal Ghia's site, I think it's www.performanceghia.com if I'm wrong it's in the link section on the main page of this site, Micheal site is very helpful. Basically, and I mean basically the 944 brakes are borrowed from 911's and 928's of that era. You'll want to stay away from the 924 stuff cause it's identical to the 1303S setup, lil disc's up front, drums in back, 4 lug junk. There are a number of choices in brakes and suspension setups, depending what you want.

Pic to help.

If you know about the different types then you seem to understand the differences in these. There are literally thousands of parts that will interchange between these cars, for example the bushing for the front sway bar on a Super Beetle is the same bushing that is used on the rear sway bar of the early 911 and the early 944 electronics came from the Rabbit (Golf I). VW/Porsche/Audi are a group, much like Chevrolet/Pontiac/Buick, and their parts bins are cross referenced. Basically in short you could over analyze the interchangeablity of the parts to a Super for ages. Sure you can use those torsion bars from the 944 in your Super, by the way they are the same torsion bars that are factory stock in the Type III Wagon... as I said, the interchangeablity is almost endless.

Supa Ninja summed it up best here, "There are a number of choices in brakes and suspension setups, depending on what you want."

So I take it the torson bars from the 944/Type 4 wagon are firm, but the longest arms for the SB is on the 944? (isn't 968 slightly longer?) Can I use all the SB springplates and all that stock stuff for the rest of it? Sence I've got it why go buy porsche ones? Unless there is an improvement?

What you have to understand is that the 944 is a VW (Type 477) from conception and then in the latter part of the project Porsche took over the design. As an example, the (early) rear wheel bearings are the same as a Bug but you'll pay twice the price for the same part from a Porsche dealership as you would from a VW supplier. Well I don't mean to sound "big headed" but just do a search and go read everything I have posted in the suspension and brakes forums and you'll find all the answers.

So, a complete 944 suspension and brakes consists of what exactly? What all do I need to buy?

Trailing Arms,
Spring Plates,
Torsion Bars,
Rear rotors,
resr discs,
front knuckles,
front rotors,
front calipers,
kersher ball joints
What else do i need? How can I make the 4 pot calipers work the easiest?

Go to www.performanceghia.com , Micheal explain's everything needed for the 944 suspension/brake upgrade as well as half shafts/axles upgrade and the 901 tranny install. Most of this has been beatn to death on past threads, you can find it with the search function on this site as well.

Nick

Perf ghia.. that was the site I was lookin for a while ago.. Thank you.

time for a dumb question
 

I'm in the process of adapting 944 brakes/suspension to my SB and I'm looking for a US source for the Kersher ball joints to mate 944 spindles to SB control arms. Any help would be much appreciated!!

Can I physically bolt up the 944 front control arms and use the 944 struts and springs and all that jazz?

I know I can use the 944 rear end by cutting off something or other and bolting it up (or was it swaping torsion bars and using control arms. I forget. What is that gizmo I have to cut off?)

there is no US source currently. there was a group buy being organized, but i think it is done. you could always start another round. just hit the "group buy" category here.

I'm wondering if you can bolt up 944 late front control arms, shocks, speindles, springs..etc.

My train of thought is this. Get all the 944 stuff (mabey even ABS)
(or even get the 'standard' performace parts for the 944 (275lb springs, 968 rear SB, 944 Turbo front SB, 911 roters, 16" 'phone dial' wheels, konis)
And bolt it to the superbeetle. Then see if I can get more weight in the front! (radio, sandbags..etc)

My logic is this: The 944 has 50.7/49.3 weight dist. and if the SB could be made to have the same weight dist. Yes it's lighter, but it's lighter all around. Like puting 944 stuff on the rear!? Plus you get the track width.

No, you can not use the 944 control arms (which are actually from a VW Rabbit, for 83-85 944). The combo of parts are: 1303 control arm, tie rod & end, and strut bolted (via a Kerscher 17 mm ball joint) to the 83-85 944 steering knuckle (spindle) with brakes.

The near perfect weight distribution of the 944 has nothing to do with the suspension but rather the fact that the (Audi 5000) transmission is mounted in the rear of the car and the engine (Volkswagen LT Truck) is mounted in the front.

Mysticle31, don't take this the wrong way but you're going over board a little, and there is nothing wrong with that if you have thousands of dollars and mucho time along with a full shop and plenty of knowledge. This German Look thing has been around for about 10 years and these methods have been proven to work. Keep it simple, bolt on a few 944 items to upgrade your suspension, otherwise just buy a 944... and I do mean that in a sincere manner.

Sure you could, but you'd have to complete redesign the entire front clip of the car with a new or modified frame head and a lot of work to intergrate the strut towers at the correct angle.

There's no nice or easy way to say this but your thinking above is not logical.

Gotcha. Just for curiostity sake, what are the later control amrs from?

The engine is from a VW truck?

I'm just conserned about the weight dist, using a suspension from the rear of a great handling car (do to balence, and design) and not having good front suspension.

It's interesting that the 944 (early) had control arms from a rabbit, becouse they are so short, so as the control arms move up the camber change on the wheel is greater change becouse of the shorter distance. And change in roll center when lowered. I thought longer arms would have been better choice.

Then again, people say the later the 944 the better!

Yes, Volkswagen had a mid-sized light duty work truck sold in Europe called the LT and that is where the 924/944 got the engine (it was 477 when it was a VW project). The whole 477 car was built with in stock parts. The suspension from the Super Beetle, the drive train from Audi (but their engine design fell through so the engine came from the truck) and all the other parts of the car were from the Rabbit/Bug. Almost everything on that car but the body were parts that were already designed from other cars.

Yes, the later the 944 the better, and the more 'Porsche' that it is because in mid-85 the majority of the VW parts on the car, including the engine, were designed and replaced with true Porsche components. The whole suspension was redesigned by Porsche as well as the dash and interior. Most Porsche people don't consider the 944 a true Porsche until 1986 and that is correct because the 924/944 (up to 85) was in fact a Volkswagen.

That thing is one overgrown vanagon!! :eek:

So I take it a kick butt street/track setup is:

944 rear arms, spring plates? rear torson bars, brakes on all 4 corners (911 rotors are used as upgrades for 944 people? are 4 piston calipers worth it?), wheels (I think 944 guys like "phone dial" wheels. What are those fuchs? Sence I'm puting on all these heavy suspension parts I'd like to find the lightest streetable wheels I can muster), Max struts front (What about Ground control? Or is max prety firm? I think they said the struts were only 10%. I saw Super Ninjas SB and I don't thing those were 10% unless I'm just REALLY off base on my spring rate vs front end weight (I don't doubt it))

What about Swaybars and the Superbeetles weight dist? Those consern me..

Considering I have 3 inch wider fenders to fill. What's considered the widest tire I can put on a SB of similer specs to the above without hurting the ability to keep the tire on the ground and upseting sprung to unsprung weight much?

I would need a 6 year engineering degree and about a half million dollars worth of equipment to be able to answer that question. :D

How did I get a + History added to the title of this thread? What is a good suspension set up for this car?

It seems the featured cars mostly like 915 trannys, 944 brakes and suspension (mabey 911 rotors, are they worth it? Mabey 4 piston or big brembo calipers)

What is the widest wheel I can put on before I hurt performace?

Topline Maxx Struts or similar to allow wider/deeper offset wheels. Strut tower brace, rear Kafer Cup brace, appropriately sized front and rear sway bars. 4 wheel disc brakes. Porche brakes are nice but some say overkill. Set a limit of an 8 inch wide tire in the front and a 10 in the back. That should suit you fine. Anything larger is probably unneccesary anyway.


You really, really should drive a superbeetle(stock if possible) so you know what you are getting into. It does not take much to make one perform just rediculous. I've gone from stock to lowered with Maxx Struts, 17 inch wheels, strut tower brace, swaybars, etc.
The difference in handling and overall performance is HUGE. :eek:

Well, I have 3 inch wider fenders front and rear. Gotta fill those up. Easy for the rear (944 arms brings out the track) I'd imagine.

Fronts may be another story.

What is conidered good bars? I'd have to run $$ trail and error.

Lowering a macpherson strut car is bad! As you drop the ride height your roll center falls faster then the CG And even with fimer (and the max are only 10%) you are actually increacing your tendency to lean! That is cured with race style springs with no lean to begin with, but who runs those on a street car?

It maybe "bad" to lower a mcpherson struted car, and I may only get a 10% increase in springrate with Maxx struts, BUT I have no body roll (if I do I've never felt it). That 10% equals a lot on a car that only weights around 2000 lbs and most of the weight is in the back, any stiffer and your front wheels will bounce on every little bump on the road (very bad when in the corners). Take a small chance and go with a setup that someone on here recommends that works them and see if you like it then from there you can start to try different things. It doesn't take a lot to get a super to handle. As far sway bars go I have 7/8" in front and 3/4" in rear and that seems to be the magic number. Strut brace is a must too.
I can't put into words how my 1302 feels in the corners, it almost feels like a frontwheel drive car pulling me through the corners. I know ff cars suck in the corners but thats how it feels.
Also when you get the moulhouland super be prepared to replace just about ever part of the front suspension cause after 32 years the parts will be wore out. I like to use German parts whenever possible, much higher quality.

Nick

So what's the difference between max sturts and kersher sturts (I read they are both the best you can buy?)

What works well with 944 rear arms? How do I install 944 stuff on my SB? Whole rear end? just replace arms and torson bars? Spring plates?

Are there other parts I should get while I'm at it that are 'better'? (like 968 arms, and a 944 torson bar, 993 spring plates?)

Do a search on the kersher struts, from what I understand they have adjusable preload, and a different kind of spring rate(I think non progressive), and the height adjustment is threaded nut style. They are the best but they are not cheap, plus you'll have to add in shipping from Germany. The Maxx struts work just fine on a street car. You'll probally want the full 944 rear suspension like the one I have, maybe from a post 86 951 if your thinking about Brembo's. The 944/951 rear setup is the best I'm aware of. You'll want shocks to fit the rear control arms that you wind up using, the Koni yellows I want are $130 a peice so they'll have to wait. Kafer cup brace will make the rear more rigid and eliminate rear wheel hop. The how-to nitty gritty has been beaten to death on several previous posts, once again use the search function.

PS-doing all of these upgrades to a bug is advanced stuff, it would help a whole to get familiar with the stock setup then you'll have a lot more understanding of what/why your doing what your doing.

I added it :cool:

Why, what does the +history mean?

(I know I'm slow at swallowing things. I like to do every angle and have an annoying habit to rephrase a question later to see if I get a different responce :p )