VWoA email
 

Hi

I received this email from VWoA, I look after a website in Australia for my car club. Is this a hoax, did anyone else get it?

Steve


Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 1:25 AM
Subject: Volkswagen of America, Inc. Internet Licensing Program.

Hi:

During an Internet prospect review, you were identified as a candidate for the Volkswagen of America Club and Enthusiast Internet Licensing Program. This is a free, electronic licensing program for Clubs and Enthusiasts that allows the use of Volkswagen trademarks on Internet websites, if certain conditions are met. The Program can be easily accessed from Volkswagen of America's web site http://www.vw.com, under the main menu option "VW the company" then "Trademark Program". You can also access the program directly at http://vwtrademarks.com

If you are a Club or Enthusiast and have any interest in using Volkswagen’s trademarks in your domain name or on your website, you must apply for a trademark license. The Licensing Application Process describes the program in full detail.

Also, you need to know that if you are already currently using Volkswagen trademarks on the Internet or in a domain name, this email does not constitute any agreement or acknowledgment that your uses adhere or conform to the Licensing Agreement. You need to apply and receive a license to avoid the wrath of our legal guru's.

We truly look forward to hearing from you and to your participation in this program. Once you are licensed, you will be able to obtain benefits only available to licensees, such as listing your Club Events on Volkswagen of America's Club Event Calendar.

Please do not hesitate to send this email to anyone you may know who would be interested in participating in this program.

Sincerely,

Volkswagen of America, Inc. Marketing


====================================
THIS IS A SYSTEM GENERATED MESSAGE
PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS NOTE
====================================

i just read over their entire licensing program. their email seems to be consistent. i was questioning how professional the statement "You need to apply and receive a license to avoid the wrath of our legal guru's" was and figured that as a giveaway of a hoax, but they actually have similar casual statements laced in their licensing program.

one key statement to point out in their General Terms and Conditions..."If you currently own a domain name that is acceptable to the program, you hereby agree to transfer the name to VWoAs domain name registry. If a new domain name is required, you agree to register the name through VWoAs registry." not sure if legally that translates to what i think it does, but i don't like it if it does.

also, in their list of restrictions they note "slanderous statements", not sure what defines that (is someone saying they suck slanderous?) and how liable the site is when it is contained in a forum that is open.

i am not aware of GL.com ever getting such a notice and the logo containing a graphical image of a car that looks like a bug is the only thing i see in potential violation at this point. not sure how the use of their trademarked terms applies in a forum setting. if that use falls under their protection you could extend the argument to ask if you are even allowed to speak the words. :rolleyes: i am equally unclear if a picture of a car/bus is a violation as compared to the use of a graphic or picture as it relates to a commercial enterprises logo or statement of work.

all that said, it just dawned on me that they noted laws in other countries could vary. so not even sure if/how they could come after you. maybe they narc on you to VW of Australia and they come after you for being such a bad boy. dunno.

WOW! I have never seen a more sadisticly proprietary corperation. :mad:

Makes me want to look over my shoulder whenever I say Volk... uh... you know, that "V" word I need permission to say here. :rolleyes:

In "General Terms And Conditions" it reads to me that what you submit to VWoA for licensing becomes their property if accepted. :confused:

What a friendly f&(#!*@ car company!

biggest catch i see is that this is all centered around if you are a "non-commercial" site. by their definition you can not have any advertising etc. not sure how many people want to put large forums up like this and not recoup costs. i can see that for small personal sites, but even with as much as i like having this up here, not being able to recoup costs (which is all i really shoot for and am not even remotely close to) would be a show stopper. only thing i could think to do is switch to donation based. not sure how well that would work (pobably not at all is my guess) and if they would still consider that advertising or commercial since money is involved.

I got the email too. Haven't read over everything yet but can you post the terms in the quote.

GL.com and VKG haven't received anything....yet. i don't mind enforcement of copyright and trademarks and fully understand the view of the courts regarding consistent enforcement by a company (lack of consistent enforcement by a company greatly hurts their stance on all cases current and future), but it leaves me wondering if all of the other marques (domestic and foreign) actually spend the capital for a staff to go out hunting for potential violations or if they just enforce when it is recognized. i can even extend my understanding to where it impacts a manufacturer's potential revenues by parts retailers or wholesalers cutting against the manufacturer's/dealer's parts business and such, but VWoA has no more stake in the aircooled world within clubs and the likes. non-reputable aircooled repair shops and retailers/wholesalers are the only areas that could potential hurt their image. leave the damn hobbiests alone.

super, here is the verbage...

General Terms and Conditions
Domain Name:

As a general rule, an Enthusiast or Club will be granted limited permission to use no more than two Volkswagen trademarks in a domain name and on a single website. By way of example only, an acceptable enthusiast domain name would be WWW.JOESVWBEETLE.COM, or an acceptable club name would be WWW.AUBURNHILLSVWCLUB.COM. Impermissible names would be WWW.VWBEETLE.COM OR WWW.VWCLUB.COM. (Check out the distinction here: the permitted examples connect the trademark with the enthusiast or club. The impermissible examples look confusingly like US!) If you currently own a domain name that is acceptable to the program, you hereby agree to transfer the name to VWoAs domain name registry. If a new domain name is required, you agree to register the name through VWoAs registry.

Website:

A single* proper use of the encircled VW Logo on the homepage of each Website will be permitted following a statement reading:

Officially Licensed Volkswagen Enthusiast Website or,

Officially Licensed Volkswagen Club Website as appropriate.

In addition, you agree to use a legend in the following form at the bottom of the home page of the website and in the legal notice/copyright page of the website:

"This website (or club) is not affiliated with or endorsed by Volkswagen AG or Volkswagen of America, Inc. All Volkswagen trademarks herein are used under license from VWoA.

*By single use we mean that our logo should appear only once on a licensed sites homepage, and not, for example, as dozens of tiny logos in a background tile.

Quality Standards and Monitoring.

Because you will be using Volkswagen trademarks, everything you do will be a reflection on Volkswagen. We must insist, therefore, that you maintain the same high trademark quality standards that we maintain. VWoA and VWAG shall have the right to inspect your website at any time in order to insure that you are abiding by the provisions of the License. We reserve the right to revoke our permission at any time if in our view the quality of the website is insufficient or if the site contains pornographic or obscene materials; slanderous statements; material not associated with automobiles, automobile clubs, or automobile enthusiasts; advertising which is inconsistent with the Volkswagen brand; unlawful material, including but not limited to material that infringes any partys trademark or copyright rights, or any other type of material objectionable to VWoA or VWAG. (Were not trying to slam the door on your creative handiwork. However, if were going to grant someone a license to use our trademarks, we need to know that were giving it to a site that supports our brand values: friendly, different, original, honest, and approachable.)

Title.

You acknowledge that VWAG and VWoA are the owners of all of the Volkswagen word marks, as well as all Volkswagen logos and design trademarks used by or registered to them respectively. All rights to all Volkswagen trademarks and service marks including those specifically mentioned herein are reserved by VWAG and VWoA for the respective trademark owners use and benefit.

Liability and Indemnity.

Your license shall create no agency, joint venture relationship, or mutual responsibility on behalf of one party for the debts or liabilities of the other. You agree to indemnify, defend and hold VWAG and VWoA harmless from and against any third party loss, claim, damage or liability arising in any way from any content, conduct, or representations made on your website.

Term and Termination.

If your application is approved, VWoA will grant you permission to use specific trademarks for one year. This permission may be renewed on a yearly basis, in VWoA's sole discretion, assuming that your website has maintained the quality standards referenced above and abided by all use restrictions, and you pay the renewal fee for the domain name. VWoA may terminate this Agreement at any time without notice, and without liability, upon 24 hours prior written notice to you. You may terminate this Agreement upon ten days written notice to VWoA. Upon termination, you must immediately cease all use of the Volkswagen trademarks and service marks.

Nonassignability.

The permission granted shall not be assignable or transferable to any other party or entity without the prior express written permission of VWoA.

Nonexclusivity.

The permission is non-exclusive, and in granting it, VWoA neither confers on nor infers any rights in the trademarks to you.

Miscellaneous Provisions.

1. No alteration, modification, amendment, or other change of the License shall be binding on the parties unless it is in writing, approved and executed by VWoA.

2. Any notice or other communication pursuant to this License shall be in writing and shall be deemed to have been fully given or made when e-mailed with time/date stamp or mailed by certified mail, return receipt requested, whichever occurs earlier.

3. The License will be construed according to the laws of the State of Michigan, excluding the choice of law provisions. You consent to the exclusive jurisdiction of the state and federal courts for the County of Oakland, State of Michigan, U.S.A. for the determination of any claim or controversy between the parties and arising out of or relating to this Agreement. You hereby consent to the jurisdiction of the Michigan courts and waive any objections as to personal jurisdiction or as to the laying of venue in such courts due to inconvenient forum or any other basis.

4. The License constitutes the entire agreement between you as the Licensee and VWoA as the Licensor, and it supersedes all prior or contemporaneous communications and proposals, whether electronic, oral, or written, between you and VWoA with respect to the subject matter of the License.

5. A printed version of these Terms and Conditions, the License, and of any notice given in electronic form will be admissible in judicial or administrative proceedings based upon or relating to the License to the same extent and subject to the same conditions as other business documents and records originally generated and maintained in printed form.

I don't think that GL or VKG will be bothered because neither has "beetle" or vw" in their domain. Unless they copyright "kafer" soon. I have read the above but exactly what sentence has the part about it "becomes their property if accepted".

soon the statement " i own a 73 volkswagen super beetle "

will be "i own a 73 v-car great insect"

i'm sorry but i find it hard to stomach the restriction of using the name of a product i own which the manufacturer has discontinued production of.

imagine if Ford went to every enthusiest site and demanded they register there domain with ford or be sued. i can imagine that you would be able to here the laughter all the way to Alaska.

what's next? they tell you you can't customize your "insect" because it infringes upon "V-car's" intended use of they're intelectual property. only full restorations of the "insect" will be allowed and only after inspection and approval from "V-car"

:laugh: :mad:

I think I should get a lawyer just to read the last few posts just to make sure I didn't break any copyright laws with my thoughts. :laugh: :eek:

Hi

Thanks for everyones input, I guess that I should put with all the other junk email.

Steve

Well Steve since you're "down under", the first thing the application asks is if you are in USA or Canada.

This kind of crap from VW against the people that keep the Beetle fire burning caused me to purchase a new GMC Denali instead of the Toureg. Wanted the Toureg but could not support VWOA. I have been building VW race/street cars for over 25 years. That's really too bad that they have turned their most loyal supporters over the years into people that buy anything BUT their new products. Maybe attempted world domination of car makes by VW makes them think they have us all covered. But frankly I would rather put $40K+ into my Super Convert than pay them for an Audi TT. I am just tired of the predatory behaviour against people in and supporting our hobby, one that promotes the brand whether they like to admit it or not! Next they will ask us all to remove the VW logos from non-stock Beetles so they are not confused with factory stock vehicles (for liabilty reasons right?).

Just my opinion,

Thanks

Randy

Superman, that wasn't written on their terms and conditions page. Thats how I interpreted it.

Read the section regarding "Standards and Monitoring"

The letter "V" and the letter "W" arranged together side by side, or over-under inside a circle, the word "Volkswagen", and their various slogans belong to VWAG, and VWOA. If permission were granted to use those symbols on a non-commercial basis, then you are using their property (so they say) and are subject to rules and regs drawn up by VWAG and VWOA regarding where you put the "V" and the "W", how you arrange them together, how big they are, what color they are, how many times you use the "V" and the "W" together, which emblem design you use, etc...

No, by signing a licensing agreement you do not make VWAG and VWOA owners or YOUR material, BUT you give them control of your material and it's presentation.

In my mind thats 9/10ths of ownership.

I understand it better when you word it like this and that's probably the correct meaning; but, like all laws we all have our own interpretation.

I wonder if Volkswagen Corporate speaks Russian?

http://beetle.org.by

I filled out the trademark application at the link below and the quote was the reply.

http://www.vwtrademarks.com/license.aspx?type=club

Hi

Why is VWoA doing this and not Germany, I cant find any mention of this on the German website, is it because VWoA are more litigious?


Steve

Contrary to popular belief, VWOA is more financially succsesful than VWAG. In Europe, Volkswagen is currently one of worst selling cars. Lamborghini, and Bently barely generate enough revenue to offset cost, so I'd imagine that protection of the Volkswagen moniker, to them, is the least of their worries, especially since VWOA pretty much has that action on lockdown. Here in America, VW is a good selling brand, and is worthy of some protection, but not to the extent they seem to want to go.

Yes, VWOA are more litigious, I guess because US courts seem to condone copyright litigation more so than in Europe.

Funny you should say how well they are doing here, I read an article in a car magazine today how VWOA is on track to lose about 1.4 Billion US Dollars this year! Maybe they can charge us all $10.00 to be allowed to leave our VW logos on our Beetles...

Thanks,

Randy

That is funny. I know of many Aircooled VW folks that will not own a new VW just because of the VWOA's actions in the past 5 years. Nothing like pissin' off you oldest customer base. I sure do wish VWOA supported their old iron like say GM, Ford, etc, etc. I never hear of this kind-a stuff from folks that are in other classic car clubs/organizations.

The Volkwagen Beetle is a very unique animal in automotivedom. Just look at the ability to interchange parts across many model years as well as other air-cooled models coupled with how many were sold in 50-plus years. When one talks of generational differences in Thunderbirds or Corvettes, one talks about cars with virtually no compatability with their own namesake.

Because of this, there are huge numbers of people and businesses making money off of the Beetle, and this product alone.

I guarantee if there is someone making replacement parts for a Model T, they have an agreement with Ford. And if they don't, I guarantee Ford will notify them as soon as they find out.

And if this took place, few (by comparison to the VW air-cooled community) would know.

General Motors prevented Volkswagen from using Safari in North America for what became the Thing. Ferrari issued a cease and desist order to Aurora to prevent them from making slot cars with their likeness and name. Jaguar did the same to the NFL team located in Jacksonville until it got litigated into an agreement. And so on. It's pure folly to think companies don't defend their copyrights in the same way as Volkswagen. It is just that Volkswagen's past popularity translates into it's present-day hoopla.

Contrastingly, Ford let the copyright slide on the GT-40. Now, they are producing a car that looks like the former Le Mans winner but they can't call it that or even refer to it by name. Oh, they can show a clip or a pic of the Le Mans winner scurrying under the checkered flag or being doused in Dom Perignon. But they can't utter "GT-40" unless they get permission.

I know there are those who say, "Yeah, but in such-and-such case, what difference does it make? Why does Volkswagen have to be so vigilant?"

Simple answer: The law does not allow selective overlooking. If a trademark or copyright is allowed to be used by someone -- anyone -- in the public domain, it must be allowed to be used by everyone in the public domain.

In all cases, an agreement must be filed. Because of the complexities of state laws and federal laws, a fee is usually charged -- even if it is something like $1 per year. And you can bet that the agreement is going to be reviewable and renewable at the copyright's owner's whim.

So, some air-cooled fans won't buy a water-cooled car of the same heritage because of this? Why should Volkswagen care? It's not they want anyone alienated from their products. Heck, there are people who wouldn't own a VW because of the Hitler connection, even though no Volkswagen was ever built when Hitler was alive.

The reason Volkswagen is willing to have a few people with silly little grudges is because of the value of the copyright.

Imagine if every Volkswagen factory, every Volkswagen dealership, every Volkswagen period were somehow wiped from the face of the planet. The Volkswagen name, logos, copyrights, etc. would still be worth incredible millions.

That's what's worth defending.

And every company does it.

First of all Ford sold the name GT-40 and the rights to continue making the cars in serial number order to a company in England, who then years later refused to sell or allow Ford to come back and use the name.

And for Volkswagen it is the way the copyright is defended. There are nice ways and not so nice ways. For several years VWOA defended the copyright in vicious ways. Ask some of the advertisers who list in their ad copy that they no longer can show or say something VW related because of suits or decist orders. It is silly that they cannot show the front of a VW Samba just because there is a chrome VW logo on the front.

Of course manufacturers license the ability to reproduce parts. VWOA just deemed the licensing as too inconsequential to their business for too many years. Now they need to raise money any where they can. It appears VWOA is ready to try the nice way of enforcement. I think this is great.

If VW continues the downward spiral of less than enthusiatic vehicles and pricing, they themselves might wipe the factories off the face of the earth. How long can a company have losses as large as they are now having? It sometimes takes hitting rock bottom to help one reflect on what has been done wrong to get you there. Hopefully VWOA is set for change.

I still see this all as a function of most all large American companies having too many Lawyers on staff without enough to do. Maybe they should file the points off of each others teeth...

Thanks,

Randy

"So, some air-cooled fans won't buy a water-cooled car of the same heritage because of this? Why should Volkswagen care? It's not they want anyone alienated from their products. Heck, there are people who wouldn't own a VW because of the Hitler connection, even though no Volkswagen was ever built when Hitler was alive."

Forgot this response..

Why should they care? Perhaps because when you have a built-in fan base of MILLIONS, one should nurture them and urge them to help you while you help them. Why do you think GM pays so much attention to the owners of old GTO's, SS's, etc? Because they know their fans do not usually drive these to work and would not be seen dead in another brand vehicle. And get ready for the Chevy Power Tour next year...

And Hell there are people that won't buy Anything German because of the Hitler connection. Not something the manufacturers can do anything about now is there?

They need us and we need them. Capitalism is grand.

Thanks,

Randy

It's not a built-in fan base of MILLIONS who care, it's a noisy few. And most of them probably just don't like the new product anyway, or they don't like the discontinuation of the Mexican Beetles (which I think is mistake on VW's part, but that's another rant).

And please don't try to draw a connection between Volkswagen's need for restructuring and their copyright enforcement.

What GM does for SS, GTO, etc. owners has nothing to do with copyrights. But I will agree VWoA should (IMO) do more for current owners of their products -- whether it's a '71 1302 or an '02 Cabrio, two of the VWs I currently own. That, too, is another rant.

It's funny, though, that the great GM went after a company now called Wombat because HummBug sounded too close to Hummer. GM even forced Wombat to change their grill.

As far as the well-known magazine ad with the blacked-out "VW": I don't know the facts (both sides) to comment. It has the appearance of the advertiser violating a copyright law; VW wanting clarification, compensation, or otherwise; the advertiser essentially giving VW the well-known two-word send-off; VW saying, "Well then, cease and desist"; and the advertiser having the hissy fit response to show VW who has the last word using the blackout and accompanying caption.

The advertiser comes off as a company you don't want to have a disagreement with. Even if the above scenario is not the case, it still makes the advertiser look unprofessional.

What is a "nice" way to inform someone a copyright is being infringed upon? And if the response is, "Too bad," what is a nice way to proceed?

Yeah, I hate lawyers, too -- until I need one.

The way VWOA defended it's trademarks changed greatly about 5-6 years ago with a change of CEO's and slumping sales. They then came after clubs and parts vendors with a very hard hitting approach. Some venors just closed their door rather than pay the unbelievable settlements (Johny's Speed and Chrome, etc). Some ended up in bankruptcy (ie Rocky Mountain Motorworks). Sales fell further due in part to these actions. Then VWAG instructed VWOA to call off the Lawyer packs and worry about selling cars. So the trademark defence has gone back to a form more like it used to be, not quite but close.
Yes they should defend it, but not the way they did a short time ago. And yes they should be more supportive of their old iron,,,,,, it is what made the company. VWAG, Porsche, Audi and the others in the stable never pulled the kind of stuff VWOA did a few short years ago. If VWOA supported their old iron like Porsche does we would be much better off. And so would they.

What I am saying about GM (somewhat Ford) is they support rebuilding, shows and ownership in general of their old iron. They actively support the people who manufacture the repro parts and even make some themselves. You see the GM brand logos on bolts for Gods sake. I would love an R32, or an Audi TT done right (Porsche brakes+) but I will probably not buy one if VW does so little to support the brand and the hobby. I spent a delightful week this summer at the Porsche Parade, talk about support for old iron! And most of those millions of us that bought a Beetle when we could not afford anything else are looking for the replacement to the fun we had then. I think you are wrong to think most old Beetle owners are not still brand loyal. Fond memories last forever.

I also expect every manufacturer to protect their copyright, that's the only way to protect the brand. But yes there are nice ways to inform and educate those that you feel are in violation of your copyright. Just like there are nice ways to inform your neighbor not to plant the new tree three feet past his lot line onto your property. You can educate and illuminate or you can just find an a-hole attorney and sue him after you watch him dig the hole.

And you only need a lawyer when another one attacks, unless of course you start the attack with one...

Thanks,

Randy

I needed one when I was falsely charged with a felony. I needed one when a former residence didn't return my security deposit. I needed one when terms of a contract wasn't observed by a former employer. If that's considered me starting an "attack" with one, so be it.

As far as the rest of it, I am probably more in agreement than disagreement with what you said. VWoA doesn't seem to give a stool sample on whether the past several cars I've owned -- including four currently -- are Volkswagens. They are not the reason I keep buying VWs. I have had great reliability with their cars. I have a mechanic who works on VWs and who I trust implicitly. And I learned to drive with my dad's '66 Beetle, so now I am reliving that fun with my '71.

All of which just has little if anything to do with the original e-mail. That's all.

- - - - -

I can't comment on particular companies going bankrupt because I don't know their situation to comment. If they existed innocently, then VWoA should be shameful in their acts. And there are laws against predatory practices. If these companies acted in a not-so-innocent fashion, there are still laws against predatory practices. Anti-trust laws are set up to work both ways.

(Now, if you want a juicy rant on two cornerstones of anti-trust law -- The Clayton Act and/or The Stafford Act -- and whether they actually do more harm than good, I'm all for it. I will comment on things I know something about.)

hope he doesn't have "VW" in his name. :D

a good chat. good point and counter point and the is value in each post. again, i hold copyright dear to my heart and understand the consistent application of enforcement. that said, i still think there is a distinct difference between a company (shop, parts house, etc) and a club. why they are coming after the clubs is beyond me. and what gets me even more is the enforcement of the images. so we can put a calendar out and not have any of their buzz words anywhere in it, but just the image of a car makes it an infringement for a club? the law may be the law, but over-enforcement doesn't have it remain justice.

I'm not ranting. Just putting out my feelings. I feel that they should defend their tradmark and get their share of of aftermarket fees. At least now clubs can use their logo, etc (with approval). Before you were just told to remove it or we will see you in court or you owe us this much for having used it.

There were lots of Volkswagen (Kdf-wagen) cars made during the war and that's why the factory was bombed. There was the Kommandar, a 4WD Bug, a 'Vert for field officers, the Schwimmwagen, the Kubelwagen 181 "Thing" and also the air-cooled motor was used in the Luftwaffe.

Of course, there were. I meant no cars were ever made for civilians, even though many bought into a purchase plan. Sorry for being unclear on this point.

To me, there wouldn't have been a Volkswagen if it weren't for Ivan Hirst given the way history actually unfolded. Since Ferdinand Porsche had working designs prior to the Hitler connection, it is at least possible a Beetle-like car may have developed into production if Porsche could have found financing.

Predicting alternate history aside, I think Hirst had more to do with the current existence of Volkswagen, the company, than Hitler. Furthermore, regardless of everyone's varied but valid opinions here, I think we should at least agree that Volkswagen, the company, is right on distancing itself from its Nazi heritage. I am empathetic since I, too, have a Nazi heritage in my genealogical past I detest.

Our club was approved by VW :) :agree:

http://www.superbeetlesonly.com/foru...showtopic=4207

What the F**K is going on?!?!
 

So...
Does this mean that I will get sued for my avatar? I mean...It could be miscontrued as comparing VWoA to hairy primates that play with their own fecal matter. Is that so wrong?
I have read every post intently and frankly we are just kicking the horse for the sheer pleasure of it. Just let it die. I beleive that this "problem" if there is one is something that should be seriouslly addressed, but there seems no good solution for it save for the conscience of manufacturer. Frankly, if it every came down to having the law put any restrictions on my vehicle beyond what the Dept. of Moter Vehicles enforces I would likely see it as an infringement of my personal freedom and sue them right back. I grew up in California where suing the pants off a huge corporation for a million bucks over an "overly hot french-fry which burned my tounge" is common place, but I now live in Texas where law-suit abuse is looked at with very serious consequences so I'd have to think twice before I'd take on VW...Id do it anyway, but I'd think twice.

So until then They can s**k my d**k and shove a F**king Logo up their tight corporate A**es. I don't live under a fascist regime I just play one on TV! :D
And YEs...I own a 1.8 Turbo Jetta as well/ Nice car. I wish the company was a bit more friendly. Oddly enough, one of the local dealerships said they'd repair my old 1303 any time I wanted them to. Werid huh?
They'd charge me my first born child to do it, but the fact that they would shocked me...so they can't be all bad. :)