Another beetle audio install - updated 13/5/05
 

Inspired by Troy, thought I'd share some pics of my installation so as not to bombard his thread!!

Here are some early pics of the dash mod which was dropped down using a donor dash section.
http://www.netspot4u.com/~manxclub/a...Jan3.sized.jpg

Here is the original Kenwood HU I was going to run before learning a bit more about car audio and making some better informed decisions.
http://www.netspot4u.com/~manxclub/a...ct19.sized.jpg

Sub enclosure mid way through construction - 6x9 holes will be glassed over (their initial inclusion was based on more ill-informed advice from car audio "salesman" who ended up wasting my money).
http://www.netspot4u.com/~manxclub/a...ov28.sized.jpg

And here it is nestled in behind rear seat and rollcage.
http://www.netspot4u.com/~manxclub/a...ov28.sized.jpg

Amp rack I welded up (looks weak but is actually very stable) - these are the only two components of the original system I have kept (Kenwood 150WRMS and 240WRMS amps).
http://www.netspot4u.com/~manxclub/a...ec21.sized.jpg

Now for the new stuff....

Alpine CDA-9833 HU slotted in place.
http://www.netspot4u.com/~manxclub/a...reo3_Mar14.jpg

And amp rack temporarily bolted in place (so I can eventually make the fibreglass surround).
http://www.netspot4u.com/~manxclub/a...ar14.sized.jpg

Dynaudio 240GTs waiting patiently to be installed into custom kicks (still to come). Eclipse sub will replace the original pioneer.
http://www.netspot4u.com/~manxclub/a...Mar3.sized.jpg

Thats it for now, I'll update as progress continues.

nice work. :agree: i will get some pics of mine soon too. i have yet to install the speaker cab. the rest is mostly in.

Hey,
you can post om my thread any time..
Thats 1 of my faveret HU install in a bug so far..
If i had the welding skills I would give it a shot.. maybe another time..
Your bug is a 10+ just sick..
Love the dyn's
((Dont forget you can add any Dyn Driver to that set..8's in the doors :D ))

Peace man keep'em comin I still got 100's of spot on my screen saver

Troy

Nice, once again Das! :agree:
Nice reciever upgrade as well...Alpine is one of the best out there.
Oh and what size of componant speakers were you able to fit into the kick panels? I might only be able to fit 5.25 if i install the tweeters into the kicks as well...other wise I might put them some where in the dash or something.

let us know how the sub sounds once everything is going...i still havent made my decision on that part :rolleyes:

Started on the kick panels today - masked up the footwell area, then applied foil with spray adhesive to contain the resin and to enable me to remove it all!

http://www.netspot4u.com/~manxclub/a...ar19.sized.jpg

Applied two layers of glass and resin to form a base for the kicks that will wrap around in front of the pedals to get a bit more volume for the dyns. Work will continue tomorrow.

http://www.netspot4u.com/~manxclub/a...ar19.sized.jpg

Awsome...
you did that with the windows up right..
I heard it makes them sound better :laugh:

Keep it up man
Peace Troy

hehehe.. :D

Pulled out the fibreglass base today and trimmed to size...next week will hopefully see some additional layers to the base as well as mount the mdf rings for woofer and tweeter.

http://www.netspot4u.com/~manxclub/a...ar20.sized.jpg

As usual, a bang up job. Glad to hear you finally got some good advice from someone re: components. I've landed on Alpine head units myself after years of being a slave to Sony.

Some words of advice. As you apply more layers of fiberglass, the two layers you currently have will start to fold in on themselves and distort. The way to keep this to a minimum is to roll out as much of the resin as you can so the resin/matt ratio is as low as possible.

You've probably figured out the fleece stretching idea if your looking at MDF rings for the speakers.

See what the air volume is for your mids. I used Quart Q's for mine, and the volume requirement is much more than a kick panel pod can fit. If you find the sound is small and restricted in the midbass area, an awesome way to fix it is to port the enclosure.

I had cut a hole in the metal near the bottom of the kick panel to access the heater tubing connection for the hose that heads up to the top dash vents, as I couldn't reach the area any other way. I was able to use hose clamps there to solidly mount the flex tubing.

The hole in the metal allowed an exit point for the vent in the back of the enclosure. I used some sticky sided weather proofing around the vent and sealed it to the hole in the metal, allowing the backpressure to vent to the luggage compartment and not into the interior. The sounds was instantly improved and the depth of the midbass much lower. :D

I also have my sub up front to keep the sound all coming from the front and to try to neutralize the rear weight bias of the car a bit. I really have liked the results.

http://www.geocities.com/volkdent/BugInterior.html

Jason

Nice Jason..
That SS 805 is a choice amp..
I just got rid of afew so my buddies could run some oldschool power..
Nice setup.. If you get sick of the JL try Image Dynamics. The subs are sick.. small air space/low power & they pound w/SQ
Peace out Nice work everyone..

Thanks Jason, so when you say resin to matt ratio as low as possible, this means using as little resin as possible right?

Regarding your port, that is a neat idea to vent to luggage area...I'm a little reluctact to drill/cut into all my new paint (Even though it will be hidden anyway)....would it be detrimental if I have to port it into the interior?

I've tried to maximise volume by wrapping the pods around in front of the pedals etc - won't be anywhere near as large as door volume but was hoping that would help a little.

Cheers for the tips/advice - I am pretty new to all this audio stuff so any help is appreciated.

You could always leave the front(nearest to the front of car) open
add some acoustic foam to brake down the standing waves.. thats kinda what i did . my Alpine Type X need lots of air aswell..
They sound good for now my imaging is off a bit but I think a good tuning will help alot..
the 1 thing you want to avoid is air from behind the speaker getting to the front ..this will make cansolaion problems..
aslong as you have a serface to brake down the waves you should be ok..
((You can also get standing waves in the door so adding "Egg crate" to the back wall of you speaker pod if you have room can help .. or acoustic foam)

By the way you plan on paint of cloth on the kicks?
if your doing cloth you can form it across the front and exit that way so you dont cut the car..
Spoze you could do the same with paint but you would add a ton of prep work..

peace troy

Paint at the moment...depending on how I am going for time I may make a vinyl covered insert but that would mean a whole lot more fiddling around! We'll see what happens!

Cheers again for the advice.

If you were to port to the interior, as Troy mentioned, you have to slow the waves coming off the back of the speaker. Really, you don't want ANY waves coming in from the back of the speaker, but sometimes you have to make sacrifices. You could also do all the calculations for volume and actually port the kpanel boxes correctly for the woofer. There are a bunch of specs on the instructions that come with the speakers. Some of them are Qas, Vas, and other such non-sense. Those numbers can be used to calculate the required box volumes and port lengths and styles. Ideally, get in touch with the manufacturer and explain the situation, that you have limited space. When you've completed the kpanel box, provided the MDF wood you've used is resin coated, you can just fill up the box with water and then measure the volume in a measuring cup, Tupperware type juice jugs are great as they usually have a graduated measurement on the side. If needed you can then add the ports, whether into the luggage area, or inside the car. These little things are all pretty variable, so let us know what you decide to do. I bet the speaker manufacturer can help you out a bunch. Also, if you can find a really good stereo shop who doesn't mind lending advice, they are a good source of info too.

Regarding resin/matt ratio, you just want to use as little resin as you can to actually wet the matt, too much resin just makes it weaker and heavier. Put at least 6 layers of matt down, to make it at least 1/4" thick. I then like to spray the entire interior of the box with spray on sound deadening material, followed by polyester filler, the same stuff cheap pillows are stuffed with. You can find it at any craft store or fabric store. Try out the sound at every step, because sometimes it sounds better with less than more. Consider covering sound reflective surfaces with material as well, as the reflective waves play havoc especially in the 4K hertz frequency and higher.

Jason

Oh, I almost forgot, be really carefull with how much space you give you feet around the pods, they need more room than you think.

Jason

Thanks again for you help Jason, according to the specs, recommended sealed box volume for the MW160 woofer I will be using is between 7.1 and 21.1L. Here is a link to the specs:

http://www.dynaudio.com/eng/mobile/p.../DYN_MW160.pdf

I'll try and get in touch with manufacturer re. ports etc....7.1L may be achievable since I am using the space in front of the pedals etc, but 21.1L would be impossible! :confused:

Retaped the interior this arvo and applied another two layers of fibreglass matt (trying to minimise resin use!).

http://www.netspot4u.com/~manxclub/a...ar23.sized.jpg

Nice...I like how your wrapping the panels around like that...it should give you move ooomfff, when it come to sound!

Good job man :agree:

Think about 3.5 two litre bottles per panel. That's a LOT of volume. Your right, you can only get that if you wrap around. Again though, go through pedal travel with some big shoes on, make sure you have plenty of room.

Jason

Picked up the new eclipse sub today - would have liked to mount it inverted but the rollcage gets in the way so it will sit like this. 6x9 holes will be glassed over soon.

http://www.netspot4u.com/~manxclub/a...ar24.sized.jpg

Trimmed base for kicks (again) after second two layers was applied - nice and rigid now. Once I set the mdf rings in place I'll ensure I do lots of imaginary trial runs to make sure my feet clear - I'll even make some "broom broom" sounds for special effects :D

Not much work this weekend (going away), but will continue next week.
Cheers
Alan

Have you measured that the volume is correct for the Eclipse sub in that enclosure? Contrary to popular mythology, Box A and Subwoofer B may not be compatable. The box volume must be correct for the sub or you may have much less than enjoyable results, from just poor sounding bass to woofer meltdown. You can use Kitty Litter or just plain water if everything is glassed to calculate volume. Don't forget, once the volume of the box is understood, the volume of the speaker assembly must be subtracted from that volume to equal the actual working air volume that the subwoofer sees. Usually the speaker assembly volume is somewhere in the list of sub properties.

Thats some pretty technical stuff there man...good thing I have a freind who can help out in that area....hopefully :rolleyes:

Good Luck down under Das :agree:

here is a good link for box sizing..
12volt Link
peace Troy

Nice link there Troy...lots of information! :agree:

Thanks man :D

Cheers Troy, yep I had planned to determine correct box size for the new sub (which I know is extremely important) and adjust current box to suit. Will keep you all updated.

Yeah im kinda doing the same..
I have a 1.8^ sealed box right now..
Im waiting for a 2.3 Ported@28Hz
this will fit perfect between the wheel wells..slot port on each side of the sub..
My Audio is on holt till i can finish tuning my motor..
Peace Keep up the good work..

Managed to find time after work today to position the woofer and tweeter rings via wooden dowel:
http://www.netspot4u.com/~manxclub/a...ar29.sized.jpg

Trying to obtain best imaging is difficult without having seats in nor power to run the splits. I tried to position the tweeters to fire at opposite person's head using a long piece of dowel (didn't have a laser pointer). Its a little bit of a hope for the best situation - who knows, in the future may have to redo them once the car is up and running (we'll see)
http://www.netspot4u.com/~manxclub/a...ar29.sized.jpg

I will be making an mdf skeleton to obtain the desired shape of the outer skin (and to make sure there is adequate clearance for feet etc). Although I am interested in obtaining best possible results with the audio installation, it is my first, and also have a number of constraints (like a half finished car!) so it will not be of audiophile quality....but I'll still be happy I am sure. :p

AMAZING!!!!! , nice job. ..... Dasdubber for president!!.

Nice work, and good advice given. I have worked with Pro audio for a while and do some mobil audio too. It does my heart good to hear someone put the focus of building a sub enclosure on matching the encloser volume to the driver being used. I have seen people go to an "Audio Shop" and get sold an enclosure that fits the space and then the shop will drop in just any driver without matching it to the box. They seem to be more focused brands and getting the most out of the customers wallet than they are getting the most out of the components being used.
Love that under dash console.

Dubber
I highly sugjest atleast dropping the seat in..
I did my staging w/out seats & its way low..
I do have an out but im still tuning my motor.. so i will wait a bit..
lay a blanket or somthing to set your seats on..
if your going to do it doit..
i knew i should have used my seats but i didnt .. now im pissed..

Afew tips that I use
#1- after setting mids/Tweet in place
measure from the center of the near side woofer/tweeter To the drivers Ear

#2- When you have the angle..
(Estimated listening angle to the near side woofer from the driver's seat)
((This is the angle from the center of the woofer out to the head position of the listener))

#3-Measure the Diffrence in distance between the near side woofer & tweeter to drivers head position in the drivers seat..
(Try to keep the off axis angle under 45degz)

Some Music with ladies singing & light faint sounds..
try to pickout the stage..(Im sure you knew that from it called staging)

Take your time take your time take your time

But lets see.. what you got..
You should use a Test CD.
Ultimate SQ Setup CD set

Elitecar audio.com has a OnLine install Clinic


Keep up the good work
Peace Troy

Thanks again guys for the advice, it is much appreciated.

I tried to keep the woofers as far as possible from the driver's/passenger's ears in attempt to maintain as equal pathlengths as possible (within reason as space and pedal position restricts this to a degree). Hopefully this will keep the imaging tight, and eliminate frequency shift and separation.

This is partially why I ended up going with the Alpine 9833 HU as it has time alignment facility - not something that I would want to mess about with too much to adversely affect the SQ for passenger/s...but may be a handy feature to correct for the differences in pathlengths.

The tweeters down low may result in a slightly lower stage height, hence why I've tried to keep them as high as possible (within reason again). Hopefully it won't be too noticable, and without installing some abient tweeters to raise the stage height, its something that I probably won't be able to overcome all together. I wouldn't want to move the current tweeter further up though as it creates other problems (freq separation and bigger differences in pathlengths).

Once I get the preliminary placement issues sorted out and the actual hardware installed (still have to rewire the whole car remember! - will be using optima yellow top batt by the way)...I will be taking it to a reputable (lots of feedback and input on car audio forums and in person) installer (shop) to have it all tuned so that should help.

I am an Audiologist (fit hearing aids, perform hearing assessments etc) and some of the similarities with car audio are quite cool, some of the things I've learned through reading about car audio has helped me in my job, and vice versa!

This arvo I will put the seats back in temporarily (may even pick up a cheap laser pointer) and have a closer look at woofer/tweeter placement before I glass the outer skin!

Cheers again
Alan :agree:

I know you're still mocking things up, but you may want to remember to keep the axis' of the speakers parallel. If you look at home audio, you'll find a divergent mid/tweeter combo to be very rare. You want the axis' of each speaker to be on parallel axis' to each other, especially with separates as you are using, as the frequencies of each are designed to work as a system. It looks from the pics as the tweeters are angled up, and the mids kind of accross.

Your right about the level of the stage, it will be lower, but that is the nature of the beast in a bug unfortunately. Adding some reflective surfaces in just the right spots might help, I never spent the extra time. But the stage is not as low as you might think, about as high as the dash. In a perfect world it would be over the hood somewhere, but I think you'd have to move the tweeters up much higher, and you'd also have to run each channel separately to be able to delay the tweeters with your headunit to get them back to the same delay as the mids. Might work out well though, I've only played with my Alpines delays a bit, side to side, as the separates work together through the passive xovers supplied with them.

I look forward to your initial responses to the sound.

Jason

Thanks for the tip Jason...I am a little blind during this installation because I am yet to rewire the car (will be using watsons street works kit)....so it makes it 'ken hard to trial different positions for the components. I could probably adjust the mid angle up a bit to better parallel the tweeter (which I adjusted to aim just in front of the face of opposite person - put seats back in temporarily this arvo). I am hoping there will not be a significant frequency separation.

I had a fellow plot the specs of the mid driver into WinISD (box design software)...

t/s small specs include:
*Fs 60Hz
*Qts 0.62
*Vas 10.1L

His advice was that "it IS possible to port it, but 10L is still a very small enclosure. and you'll want either a very steep xover filter (eg: 24dB/oct) or set it a bit higher (eg: 90~100Hz) to avoid the cone unloading (ie: overexcurting due to loss of enclosure cushioning effect below the tuning frequency).

something like 10L tuned to 60Hz using a 2x5" port could be ok. i've never contemplated porting a midwoofer to know if what i see on the frequency-response graph will equate to good incar performance."

Thoughts of porting into the cabin if I do end up porting? (I'd port in the centre [under the centre of the dash])

I'm actually just finishing up my audio install in my GTI, but this thread has pushed me into doing a fiberglass install. I installed a 'false floor' for my subs, amp, and crossover. Ended up taking up a bit more room than I anticipated. Fiberglass would help recoup every nook and cranny.

Excellent, excellent work!! :agree:

Cheers Craig, hope the revamp of the GTI will turn out well!

I attempted to squeeze in a port (the round shape on the inner end [which will be cut out once f/g is done]) as close to 2x5in based on some calculations/estimations in a "box design" software.

I also attempted to reposition the woofer angle to better parallel the tweeter but unfortunately the limited room did not allow a better angle. Either the woofer hit the base, or when the bottom edge was brought out, my feet would hit whilst trying to get to the pedals. So this is a compromise I'll have to live with.

http://www.netspot4u.com/~manxclub/a...Apr3.sized.jpg

After checking fit (for the 50th time) resin was generously applied. And that was it for the weekend - more pics to come.
http://www.netspot4u.com/~manxclub/a...Apr3.sized.jpg

Once last pic just because I thought it looked cool :)
http://www.netspot4u.com/~manxclub/a...Apr3.sized.jpg

Yeah Baby..
That looks sick.. :clap:
Nice job man.. Keep it up...
Oh you dont need to stop workin on the car cuz the weekend is over..lol
Peace Troy

Looks great! Sorry I've not been on as much, I'm cruising from island to island in Thailand right now, and the beach has been more appealing than the computer!

Regarding the install, try the port and see, then you can always close it off. One of the keys will just making sure the actual inclosure doesn't color the sound to much, then work on the tuning. I'm really impressed with how it looks so far.

I had the same problem with the angulation and foot space, so I cut the outside flange of the speaker down, so just the needed material was left, and that decrease the diamter significantly. I'll look forward to your next post with much anticipation.

It takes alot of time, doesn't it!!!

Jason

Thanks guys! Yep it sure does take a lot of time :bawling:
You are right about the port too, I figured I'd put it in, and then experiment once done to see if it sounds better with it open or blocked.

Nonetheless, first few layers of matt and resin went down this arvo...
http://www.netspot4u.com/~manxclub/a...Apr4.sized.jpg

The circled area is where I had to adjust the inner skeleton to ensure my foot had adequate clearance when the clutch pedal is depressed - gotta think of these things sooner rather than later!
http://www.netspot4u.com/~manxclub/a...Apr4.sized.jpg

A couple more layers to go down in the next few days then prep for paint.

:eek: :eek: Ooooh!! Babyyy!!! :agree: :agree:

Simply: amazing!!

I can't wait for the next post.