And you thought "Big Reds" were big
 

Hey just letting you in on the first pics of my project. I had to mount these as soon as I got them. This is a huge step for my bug.

I can't really put this into perspective on how huge these things are and i know every one is differant but humor me. Hold up you right arm horizontally with your hand in a fist, look at your knuckles then your elbow... and that's how big the caliper is. Really. I have to use 18's to clear em'.

These are off the front of a 2005 Porsche Cayenne turbo. The setup on that suv are the 6 pots up front with a 14" rotor, and 4 pots out back with a 12.5" rotor, and all reviews say that they are to say the least, "grabby". I'm going a little over kill and doing the 6 pots front and rear (who needs an e-brake? :haveadrin ). Engineers at Porsche explained that the mono-block style brakes are designed to stop the 6500 pound suv from 165 mph, yep 165, with out a hint of fade. And also stop a 7800 pound trailered load (with out helper brakes) from 90 mph without a problem. I think these won't have any troubles stopping my 1800 pound beetle :rolleyes: .

All i can say is lanner is the man. He let me know whats going on every step of the way. The craftsmanship is second to none. The machined billet aluminum hubs that he made are incredible. Its a shame I have to hide it behind the rotor. Contact him now and maybe you'll be the first to put 8 pot's on a beetle (brembo makes em'). Put some brakes made by lanner to match the power of your T4, you won't regret it (944 sliders to Cayenne 6 pots, they all make a huge differance in performance and lanner does them the best). Vdubcustoms.com or 905.302.3087 Call him, he's the nicest guy to work with.

These are going to be complimenting the front and the rear of my std. 74' Type 1.

The plans for the car are;

550 hp.

6 speed G-50.

1.0 lateral g in handleing (GT2,Enzo,CGT...the elite).

Run a mid 10 second quarter mile.

160 mph and be at least some-what stable.

You get the idea.

I don't know how to post the pictures on the thread but here are the attachments.

Thanks for looking,
Russ

Any comments/advise without killing my hopes of 160 mph, is appreciated.

By the way the "182" picture... I'm really lame. I didn't even look at which pictures I was posting on the "world wide web", but apparently its a public place, and there i am posing for a picture in my garage at 2 am having my girlfriend take a picture. At least it gives you a perspective on how big the brakes are :confused: .

:eek:
sweet is the word that comes to mind :)

Overkill is what comes up in my mind.





You have to use some good reduction-stuff otherwise you're not bracking but gliding al the way.

Be careful when approaching intersections and riding when the road is even REMOTELY wet. That kinda braking, without the weight on the rubber for friction will cause a lock-up. I don't care how wide your contact patch is, it will skid. Dry or not.

I was actually one of the people considering 8 pots, but I remembered my CRX with Integra Big Brake kit days in the rain at at intersection with hard braking (residues that drop from the car at stoplights=unfriendly braking surface, which is why when you ride a motorcycle, you're told to ride on the sides of the lanes). My car was too light for the 12inch rotors), and weighed ALOT MORE than my beetle. In the dry they were fantastic, and even then would lock up. And weren't even Porsche Brembo's....

I would be EXTREMELY careful...people underestimate how dangerous brakes too big can be as well...it's the reason I chose 944Turbo brakes...big enough to where I could have better stopping power than all 4 drums and having only front brakes hooked up, but nothing too outrageous for a daily driver. And with the fat contact path of 8.5 fronts and 10 rears, I think I maximized my stopping/friction coefficient. That, and I'm not a fan of stickers on my calipers, lol.

That insane...super props to you for doing that, but just be careful when driving it....

You've definately pegged the WOW meter for looks, I'm afraid you might be saying, wow, this sucks to drive. They weigh a lot more than needed, so your sprung weight is way up, and they are soooooo much more than is needed to stop a light car that I don't know if they will even warm up! If your doing it for looks, you're on the right path and they look AWESOME! But if you are doing it to drive, I think you might be on the wrong path.

Jason

Just to let you know that there is no way in hell I would ever drive a 550 hp 1800 lb. rear wheel drive car in the rain. Never mind the braking factor.

I don't see a problem of sprung weight because if you look at the ultima gtr (the fastest production car on the planet, 10.5 @ the 1320, 0-100-0 in 10.3 sec, and 1.176 in lateral G's) has simalar style brakes on a 2000 pound car (it's also street legal), and obviously by the #'s it doesn't have any problems getting around. On top of that, brembo's 8 piston setup is for the front of 993 and 996 cup style cars that weigh closer to 2500 lbs..And my car will probably end up being 2000 lbs., with a turbo charged inline 4, 6 speed g-50, 993 rear end, and these brakes.

I wouldn't have gotten something this big if i thought they would be counter productive. The caliper is suprisingly light weight.

Endless brake company makes a 12 piston, 17" rotor brake setup for the front of SUV's that want to fill up there whole wheels with brakes when using 22's and up. That i might add would be counter productive.

Also, the rotors will be crossdrilled.

Check out how wide the rotor is, 1.3" thick!

Contact patch will be 255/18's up front and 315/18's out back. Anything to get 1.0 lateral g's.

Moto of the German Look Style of tuning: FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION. Not the other way around.

The ultima is also not a VW, and any idea how much the ultima costs? I'm all for getting nuts, but brakes are just one of the variables in an almost unlimited number of them for the project you have in mind. I'm not trying to give you a hard time here, I'm just trying to inject a bit of reality. If you are going to give everything you do on this project the same type of overephasis, you will end up with a bug that costs $100k. Look at Bader Racing's Ghia, do you think they make a lot of sales or a lot of money with those? It's awesome, but pricey.

Jason

Me likes, me likes! :eek: I'm poor so i'll probally just end up using my 944 N/A calipers. Don't look cool like the Brembo counter parts but will do the job.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
 

I realize i'm putting a lot of money into the car. It's going to cost at a bare minimum of $25,000. This car is actually my first car and I have an attachment to the car that most would think is crazy. I will never sell the car even if i'm in financial trouble. EVER.

I have based a lot of my life in making sure i can make the project go smoothly (aka emergency money in savings).

I expected criticism, but not from other people who are doing similar things to there Dubs. I will have proportioning valves on both the front and rear circuits, as well as the expirtise of Lanner. I have no doubt that with Lanners advise, the setup will be nothing short of well balanced and very streetable.

Thanks a lot for all the input, i'll include pictures of other similar overkill additions to my project in due time.

Russ

We're not saying it's crap...it's FAR FROM it...it's just a little counter productive.

The Porsche's with the 8 pistons are also slowing from insanely fast speeds. Also, those Porsche's have perfect braking surfaces at all times, with a track that's also heated with racing tires. Granted you will have the motor to make up for the unsprung weight, I'm just saying the car will not be "streetable". As the brakes will be a little too strong.

Another thing I was looking at was pan/frame fatigue. Unless you go semi-or tube chassis, you might want to look into getting your shell AND pan reinforced as the lateral braking forces will deifnitly put a strain on the thin gauge metal. The Beetles pan/shell wasn't designed for that brutal of a stress. I mean, the forces a motor puts out in terms of twist from the HP/TQ of a motor is FAR LESS than that of 6 pots under full braking force, and you need all sorts of braces/reinforcement for 250HP....

But it's DEFINITLY a sick thing you got going on....just things to think about.

Hey thanks for all of the suggestions.

Point #1-The Cayenne has a brake booster.
Point #2-I'm using proportioning valves on both front and rear circuits to make it more street friendly.
Point #3-The car WILL be used every day as a daily driver.
Point #4-You guys are awesome for all the input
Point #5-The chassis will be fully reinforced from the front to the motor mounts with a 14 point cage, and the heater channel replaced with square cro-moly tubing.
Point #6-The car will be used for circuit races as a new track is being built by Larry H. Miller in Toele, UT. (about 1/2 hour away), so the car is obviously going to be a little over kill.

Those are "F___ing" big. My 2 pot ghia brakes on all 4 stop like hell (although not repeatedly, ala auto-X). Those are more than likely over-kill,,,,,, but they sure do look cooooooooooooool. Be carefull.
One thing is for sure.
You will never suffer from "Brake Envy". :laugh:

Lazy ... those are some Bad *** brakes ... no doubt.

With my Big Red fronts and 930 rear setup and 235/265 tires, braking is incredible. Enough to slide the glasses I wear from my head and into the windsheild from an 80 - 0 (mph) stop ... and I can do that repeatedly because the brakes will not overheat :D

Braking is a little sketcky in the wet .. I REALLY have to be careful because the brakes lock up easily. I think this is not because of the brakes but because of the tire widths on a light car in the rain. It sure does stick in the dry though. :agree:

I have not noticed any ill effects from the weight of my wheels/tires due to heavy unsprung weight and the highway ride at 190 kph (fastest I have gone, clear highway) is 1000 % better than my drum brake setup. The car feels SOLID at that speed and I would drive that fast if that was the speed limit because I feel the car is stable.

You are on the right track :cool:

Sandeep

Nice!
Also, good job of taking the critizism. Ultimately, you build it the way you want with knowledge and advice from all fronts. You can't say you didn't know about the possibility and it might help you modify some choices down the road if you keep the warnings in the back of your mind.
Everyone made strong points and Deep backed up opinions with "this is what my big brakes actually do".
Get that rig on the road and tell us how ridiculous the brake choice was :D .


... also, I can not believe Jason brought up spending too much money! :laugh:

Yeah, as Panel mentioned, I'm obviously crazy, so don't listen to me.

I don't mean to sound critical, not at all my intent. I've just been where you are right now, and I had NO IDEA how much it would cost or how long it would take. If you think you can stick it out mentally and financially until it's done WHATEVER the cost, your on the right track. Just don't get in over your head, or you may regret it for relationship and financial reasons. It's going to have the baddest brakes around, let's just make sure that it can drive too! :laugh:

Ask 55superbeetle, airwerksvw, Zen, Yetibone, Vujade, and Plasticfantastic about how much time and money they've spent on their projects so far, they probably are a good reference.

Just keep us posted on your build. Could you start a thread just about your build so people can follow along for the whole thing instead of jumping from the different topics? Of course post separately as well, but it would be nice for future readers to be able to follow the build from the start. Lots of pics!

Jason

+1

I've been on the "fast build" several times before. My 12 sec Turbo Auto-X Civic was built in under a month....you wanna talk about dropping a ton of cash in no time? I was sponsored, so it was a quite a bit cheaper too.... So I know where you're coming from.

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL297/.../104686401.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL297/.../104686395.jpg

Doesn't look like much, but it's decieving....those wheels are 15", and weigh only 8.6lbs...Spoon SW388...yeah, anything with "Spoon" on it, for a Honda is going to set you back. Also, the suspension was all Tien...and the motor...well....

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL297/.../104686380.jpg

It's ALMOST the equivalent of what you're gonna be running...eitherway, it's a turbo motor that pushed me into the 12's....and 12 inch Integra Brakes...which is how I was talking from experiance on 12" brakes on a HEAVIER car is MORE than enough. It's about the Civic equivalent to what you're building....

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL297/...1/77707918.jpg

My Cavalier...yes, Cavalier SEDAN ran 12's with a soft launch and had a GM PROTOTYPE MOTOR....I look back and think to myself...all that money just to be 1st...bragging rights are $$$...By the time I was done, that was probably a $40K Cavalier....yeah, what a douche, lol.

If you can support it financially, by all means go for it, it'll be the ride of your dreams. But if you're blowing out everything just so you can be 1st or be done fast....trust me....It's not worth it, is all I'm saying.

But if you can support it....go full speed ahead and never look back....

It means a lot to finally get some positive comments on the setup (thanks a lot panel and sandeep and every one else for the encouragement). Especially when spending so much money on them. In pictures is one thing, in real life, they are rediculous. I know that the unspung weight may be a slight problem with the suspension "quickness" and accuracy, I just can't help but to think that i won't even notice. My friend and i built up a 90' C2 and going from 298mm rotors with big blacks to 6 piston brembo's with 355mm rotors, I have nothing but positive things to say about the setup. Identical suspension, and the car handles just as well. According to bilstein, the only time you'll notice a differance is when you are hard core cup racing. Not only on the weekends, i'm talkin' suspension dyno's, exact spring rates and custom valve jobs for the specific weight with the driver and amount of fuel.

I just can't wait to see these brakes behind my open 10 spoke wheels.

Wish me luck guys, this is the 1st step in a long, long road. I've got a bet going with some friends and family going that i can't finish the car by June 15th of 2006. Of coarse the bug will never be done, but at least for the 1st time around. ;)

Hey thanks for the advice, I'm not trying to be first because that'll open another can of worms, but i'm trying to build my dream car. And like you say go full speed ahead and never look back, I looked back and after $5,000, all I see is the baddest brakes put on ANY car, some suspension parts and a clean detailed pan. If I wouldn't have gone so crazy with the brakes, it would've already been on the ground with wheels and a full cage by now. I also want to be on some magazine covers, and to do that you have to have some pretty crazy stuff now adays. (it's still gonna be a daily driver)

I love the idea of the pink cavalier. Like you said, wow and you just lost to my PINK cavalier.
Who do you suggest for the motor tuning on the ecotec. I've heard it's got a bullet proof bottom end. I'm planning on the stock crank (balanced), block, head (ported/polished),and water pump. With JE Pistons, Carillo rods, titanium valves, titanium retainers, dual springs, total seal rings, T3/T4 turbo, Turbosmart BOV, tial wastegate, and other goodies.

I'm looking for a motor that'll make 500 hp on pump gas. No V12's, sorry, I don't want to wheelie in 4th gear due to weight. Rotary's i think are out, SR20DET is a huge possiblity along with the turbo ecotec, and my first original choice was subaru, but they need $15000 along with race gas to get in the 500 hp range.

Ok red brakes are cool, uh stay in school. Just as long as we're on the subject.

Those wheels are freaking insane. What are they? Totally awesome. :eek: \\

Jason

Verry verry nice wheels!!!!

Keep us posted

Cool wheels ... size ? offset ?

Sandeep

18X8.5 fronts and 18X10 rears. I'm gonna get the rears widened 2'' so I can use 315's out back.

Offset is 53mm up front and 62 mm on the rears.

As soon as i saw these, I decided i had to have them.

$425 per rim.

Man this is getting expensive quick.

You are putting a 315 tire on a 10" wide rim?
I have the exact same rim size for my bug and am getting either 265 or 285 tires for the rear.

NIIIICE rims...

As for the engine....talk to these people:
http://www.mantapart.com

You'll need to talk to Tim. He's the owner. Tell him an OLD FRIEND sent you, named Nate. Tell him I was the guy with the proto motor in "the Grapefruit"...he should remember, even if it was around 3-5 years ago...

He started working on Ecotecs now(when they first came out, he scoughed and hated them)...and is probably your most reliable source in that respect. He's not exactly the free-est in terms of how fast he gets things done, cause he has so much work behind the scenes that most people don't know about. Work from GM, projects for his own business, keeping the racing team, and a personal life...so he's super busy. But with him, money talks..... He's not, but kinda is, a GM engineer. He does all thier Sema/prototype cars, MAINLY thier suspension, but occasionaly a motor of his will pop-up in one, or has a TON of input from him on design/parts. He does alot of grassroots racing though...

LOL, I take it you saw that website I made about my car....yeah I was like 18 and an idiot writing all that crap...I lost the password to edit/delete it...so i guess it's gonna stay like that forever :laugh:

As for the brakes..again...nice choice. It's nice to see you picked a rim that shows off the brakes, something not alot of people do.... I'm anxious to see how things work out...

Might i suggest instead of using prob valves go with a dual MC set up with a balance bar...much more tunable and predictable.

I'm getting the rear rims widened by 2". I haven't found any 12'' wide rims that i'm absolutely in love with, so why not widen the ones I love?

Holy Crap!!! I replaced the Brakes on a Touareg last week and all i got to say is OMG!!! Those brakes will NEVER make operating temp on a bug!!! Also the amount of weight being moved is insane...for a SUV no problem but for our cars its just too much!!

F'n sweet! Even my wife liked it :) ... She did ask in disbelief "Is that going on a Beetle?!"

Heck I would worry more about hydroplaning with large tires than slippery braking in odd conditions. Even in my old 911 it got funny in the wet when braking hard. Essentially the front end is a little light for the stopping power, even with 2 pots. You just needed to learn what to expect.

For my '66 Westi the 944 N/A brakes work pretty well (front and rear). Granted have not practiced at all panic/fast stopping, which is lazy on my part.

good luck with the project and keep us posted.

I will be racing the car on a competitive level since a track is being made 30 mins from my house. It'll be done this spring.

The car will be a little heavier than the typical beetle thanks to the 6 speed G-50, suby motor, large intercooler, PWR's aluminum Viper Radiator, Cro-moly cage, and these brakes.

On the contrary, I'm lightening everything I can. No interior besides the Carbon fiber Sparco Pro 2000 seats. Carbon fenders, hood, and decklid. Lexan windows. Also I will be taking a hole saw to all double paneled interior metal.

All together I'm expecting a 2000 lbs. car with me in it (160 lbs.).

My neighbor worked for NASA for 25 years and I spoke to him about aerodynamics of the car and we're gonna try a couple hood designs (Look at the Ultima), and If they don't work, i'll get another hood.

So in conclusion I'm hoping for a 160 mph track car with the 6 speed and 540 hp. Getting it to that speed won't be a problem, just keeping it on the ground with some stability is my worry.

As soon as Porsche makes the PCCB's (ceramic rotors) for the cayenne, They'll be on my car. $800 per rotor is a little steep for me though.

with those rotors why didn't you just take some off of an 18 wheeler? they're probably be cheaper

lame ?
 

dude, with brakes like that, you're allowed to be ! :laugh: