Internal sway bar... stupid or possible?
 

My bus has coilovers up front. That handles the suspension. I still have a few (3) leaves in each torsion tube to connect the control arms to.
My idea is this, Take out the leaves and replace them with some solid round stock. Don't use the anchor point in the center of the beam but allow the bar in each tube to twist against the other side in cornering... this is basically what a sway bar does. I could even devise a way to preload the bar but don't think it would even be necessary.
Thoughts?



Jeff-

Would work. I believe thats what they use on the rear axles of the ION/Pursuit/Cobalt. Saw a show where they machined out the sway bar and replaced it by welding in a 3/4 piece of round stock. Weld both end it place with no preload, and you should be fine. I say go for it!

That's how the type 3 anti-roll bar works, I have no idea but maybe it could be adapted for you?

Rich

Panel, If I read you correctly, this system already exists. Red9design makes a coilover suspension with through-rods in the front beam. You could also buy those rods at prowlers.com for 55$.

Thanks for the replies, guys!

Pete, I've been checking that show out also!

Rich, I'll prolly start from scratch since I've got a narrowed beam and am about to do some heavy fabricating on my lower control arms anyway.

Kleinporsche, I had seen the Red9 stuff but it looked like their through rods were kinda small? I'm gonna try to cram as big a piece of round bar through there as I can, with the weight of a bus and all.


Jeff-

Would the rod need to be tempered or made from "sping" steel? I would think a shop that can make coils could fab up the rod.

Good point, did cross my mind. I was gonna ask the guys over at the local fab shop I use what they thought. They're not hot rodders like us but when it comes to deciding on use of metal and tolerences, they are slick! They always laugh at me because I waaaay over engineer everything... "is this for a bulldozer?" :laugh:
For me, it can never be too strong!


Jeff-

New beetles use this type of rear suspension member also. I think that it would work out great. keep us posted.

ya, type 3s use this on the upper control arms. since its basically a straight rod, i would think it would be easy to make bigger ones. but i havent had one all the way apart to see how hard it would be.

-Ryan

it won't work,

the front leaf springs do 3 things.
1 .they hold the car up in a twisting action(you can aliminate the job by having coilovers holding the car) OK.
2 thay stop the tralingarms comming out of the beam.?!?
3 thay stop the tralingarms going into the beam.?!?
(the 4 rubber rings that are on the front beam are only there as grease seals! NOT suspention bushings!! if you remove the anchor point in the center of the beam the suspention will move everywere!!!!wear out the grease seals and smash the outer barrings!!!!
good luck.
P.S put the anti-rollbar on the outside.(so you can adjust it :eek: for going around corners :eek: ,setting up the car :eek: with the the driver in the car :eek: )

Excuse my ignorance but how do you tune an anti roll bar?
Dont they just bolt on?
:confused:

adjustable ones have a few holes on the ends that you can bolt the link that connects to the suspension arm, the further out, the more leverage and vice versa.

Maybe you could use your own leaf springs (all of them), just removind the anchor point in the midle of the beam.
as for the Grease seals, you could try machinning nylon to replace them, you would solve the problem of the suspension moving.
The only way to know if it will work is trying
I´m gonna do this on my drag race beetle, but I´m a bit far of start messing around with the front suspension setup.

Marco, I agree with everything except #3, I'm using 1 inch round bar which is as large as will fit... it is a slip fit and will have the support of the center anchor point, it just wont be anchored. 1 inch round bar is a heck of a lot more stable than a stack of leaves, there will be very little slop.
Ordered some 1 inch 4340. Gonna do all my machining and have a local place heat treat up to spring temper. Will keep everybody posted.


Jeff-

Jeff,

I'm curious as to the reinforcing of the lower arms. Is that for the coil-overs? Any pics?

Lanner

No pics yet, I WISH they were back from welding... :bawling:
Yes, for coilovers. I didn't think the single shock bolt sticking out was strong enough so I drilled it out and replaced it with a much larger hardened bolt that I pressed in. It worked but still looked weak. I am now having a piece of 1/4" plate welded to the arm in a large triangle shape and a pair of tabs welded to that. Makes it a double shear config on the shock bolt instead of a single side load. Doing the same up on the top mount, I'll post pics as soon as I get them back and everybody can give opinions on my design :eek: .


Jeff-

Control arms are finally back...

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL267/.../126472079.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL267/.../126472077.jpg

They are gonna be a WHOLE lot safer than this was...
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL267/...5/90530040.jpg

Looking good Jeff, I bet you can't wait to get it back on the ground with the new rims! :D

Rich

Thanks Rich! Yes, I am veery anxious but it is gonna be a bit before it touches down again. I'm making changes to the cooling also and updating the master cylinder, adding hydrualic clutch, a lot to do before summer hits.

Jeff-

Finally got my bars back. They are about 34"s long, 1" round bar of 4340. I had to do my machining first, threaded the ends and drilled the holes for the grub screws. Sent them over to Ark. and had them cooked to about 40 Rockwell.

http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL267/.../129743984.jpg

Looking good Jeff. Nice floor too!

Jason

Thanks, and thanks!
The floor is just stained concrete with three coats of resin, a very long and painful story. In fact, I could probably write a book about building this new crib but you would get so frustrated by the first chapter that you would throw it away :bawling: .

Jeff-

Those control arms look awesome. I can't wait to see more updates. :D

I didnt think it would be possible to weld to the control arms, I was under the impression that they were cast parts??
Adam

Yep Adam, it was a gamble. I knew if they were cheap castings that they would fall apart as soon as the arc was struck. My welding guy said he would try it anyway and see what happens. The way they flowed together gave some confidence that they will be strong enough.
Most of the guys that make the lowered bus spindles also weld reinforcements around the crown to give them strength, same material as the arms so I had a good idea it would work.
I wouldn't dare repair a broken arm this way but if you look at the pics, my new mount rests on part of the old shock boss, supports some of the load so it's not entirely dependant on the weld.

Started on new upper mounts this week...AND finally got the ok to buy my OWN mig :D .


Jeff-

What one are you going to get?

FWIW, I got the smallest 220 Lincoln and I've been really pleased with it. I made a little cart for it and the bottle using a highly modified shopping cart I found in a ditch and it worked out really well.

Jason

I"ve been using a borrowed 110v Snap-On, what I call a "pocket mig". Very light duty. When I decided to get my own, I was gonna get the biggest, baddest I could afford. Before I dropped the cash, I checked with a buddy who does race car chassis fab and also asked the industrial fab place that has been making and welding my pieces... what they told me was really suprising.
They both said get the smallest 220v rig you can in one of the top brands. Anything bigger will not weld sheet metal well and besides the cost doubling, you will never use the power "No one really needs to weld 1/2" in a single pass".
I've opted for the Millermatic 175.

Jeff-

Looks like my suggestion wasn't too far off then! I don't think you'll want for any more, and the little ones are way more mobile.

Jason

Jeff,

Any news?
Are the control arms already in place?
How do they hold?

I really like to know, because I have similar plans for my split.

Luuk

Everythings in place, been waiting on a new master cylinder. Should have it on the road this weekend and will report back on how it all works.


Jeff-

I have not seen this thread before so I apologize for jumping in late. I like the idea of replacing the leaf springs in the tube with a solid bar to be used as a anti-sway bar. I am no expert on sway bars but is seems like two one inch bars will make it super stiff. You may decide that one bar is plenty. Usually stiff bars are 1 3/4 are used and they have diagonal arms that attach to the A arm on newer cars which provide a lot more leverage to twist the large bar. Have you done anything to stiffen the roll of the rear of the bus? It seems that a lot of anti-roll in the front will cause serious oversteer. Just my two cents, can't wait to hear how it turns out. :clap:

Mike

http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?fo...ction=category

Check out the link to the anti-roll bar rate pdf at the top of this page.

I'm thinking threaded rod at the bottom, and one of these modified to work up top.

Dorigtt, where was this info when I was trying to figure out how to make these stupid things?!?:mad: :D :D

VERY good link! I could easily use these on a future project. The splined ends offer lots of possibilities.

Mike, I have one made up out of 1" bar stock but have not had it tempered yet or made any type of attaching brackets. YES, definately required to have them at BOTH ends, without a rear, this top-heavy bus would get super squirrelly at speed. Gonna look at the stuff Dorigtt posted and see if some of those pieces can make up something better for the rear.


Jeff-

Boy it sure is nice to be appreciated for being a web-surfing champion of 'car-porn'!

I plan to make ft and rear antiroll bar setups using their components.

Very nice arms. I like how the old boss bears load.

Just to make a point about the Red9 kit mentioned earlier, the bars that pass through the torsion housing each have a bearing at each end.

Matt

Put about 50 miles on the bus today.
Everything about the suspension seems to working as planned. The ride is very firm but not jarring. The new internal bars helped tame the frontend a bunch, not go-cart stiff, but a lot better than before.
Unfortunately it brings to light the other weakness. The steering is pityful. '59 stock bus box trying to swing wide meats, 14 turns lock to lock with a 24 inch steering wheel. It's actually a little scary at speed. I don't really have much of a solution for this part of it.

Oh, and it is still overheating. Just as bad as before I added the second rad and all that work.:mad: :mad: :mad:



Jeff-

Jeff-
Glad to hear the control arms are holding well.
To bad the heating problem still exists. :(

I did some research this weekend and I know exactly how I am going to adjust my control arms. That will be a little different like you did.
The same for the internal sway bar, however I do not know exactly how I am going to hold the lower control arms together, but that will find a way out too.

Do you have any pictures of how the set-up looks now? Please post them if so.

Good luck with finding a solution for your heating problem.

Luuk

My modified control arms:

http://home.planet.nl/~schur505/Volksforum/371.jpg http://home.planet.nl/~schur505/A2M/372.jpg
http://home.planet.nl/~schur505/Volksforum/373.jpg http://home.planet.nl/~schur505/A2M/374.jpg

NICE! Looks a lot more elegant than my design. I was trying to find some of the latest pics of mine but will have to post them later.


Jeff-

Thanks Jeff,

This is how it looked like, before welding:

http://home.planet.nl/~schur505/Volksforum/357.jpg http://home.planet.nl/~schur505/A2M/358.jpg
http://home.planet.nl/~schur505/Volksforum/359.jpg http://home.planet.nl/~schur505/A2M/360.jpg

Now I have to find a solution for my internal sway bar...

Luuk