Awd Bug
 

hey hey guys just want some info I'm planing on building a 2380cc turbo more and new trans then drop that into my 69 take that stock motor and trans and re-build them and this is where I need help, I want to put it in the front what do you guys think..

I have read your post several times. It reads like you want to have front and rear engines with each having its own transmission. Is that right? And if so, is that your plan to get all wheel drive?

hey hey guys just wanted to put my Idea out there I got a 69 bug and I have a shock 1600 in it right now but I have another motor and trans that I'm going to build up . then drop it in my car then I want to take out my stocker build that one to the same spec and put it in the front to make an AWD bug for Auto crossing and just to kill those rice runners so all I'm asking is for any different Ideas to mounting this front motor and trans I was just going to take the frame horns and mount them some how to the fron and cut holes and do all that I have to do, so any help would be sweet thanks.

If you really want AWD, then surely converting the gearbox to run a driveshaft forward to a front differential would be easier and lighter than running two motors. Think of the horrific understeer with a motor up front, and the ugly carbuncle you'd need to cover a front engine.

How would you manage the front suspension arrangement? Torsion bars would be out of the question, you might need to look at installing golf struts or double wishbones.

If I were you and trying to AWD a bug I would forget about the front engine idea and work on a transmission/differential arrangement.

hey thanks for your help, but you would have that much undstear B/C that weight in the front would but on the front wheels and make it grip more/ no
tell me if I'm wrong but that's how I see it, and ya I was going to run coilovers and make a tube chasse front end and put a fiberglass clip on it with a J/sport air dam and run my cooling that way. but what Trans would I use if I wanted to put in a drive shaft?? I know that porsche made an AWD car just use that trans?? don't know what that trans is call though. thanks though you have put up more to think about I'm just in the middle of building the motor so still have some time B4 I get into the body so keep up the ideas thanks guys.

DO NOT BOTHER! This is a $20k project in the mildest form with only one motor. Your looking at close to a $1000 just in all the custom axles and CVs. I have NO idea how you'd work out the steering, the engine would be sitting around the front bumper, unless you swapped the R&P and then you'd have the motor where your feet would go, and the list goes on and on. If you want a cheap autocrosser, look somewhere else. How about an old turbo Quattro Audi? A bug is just not the way to go for competitive autocrossing, and all wheel drive with 2 motors is just plain ridiculous. Custom all wheel drive HAS been done on a bug, but it involved a new nosecone on the tranny, a prop shaft, and the rear end out of a Nissan or something, along with full custom front end and then of course there is the military AWDs that were done, but those are not easy to get ahold of and would not be usable in a high performance application. Coming from someone doing a crazy custom conversion, please believe me when I tell you this is not a direction you should be going.

Jason

I would look into the viscous coupling of a Syncro Vanagon if you are dead-set on doing this with a bug. There would be plenty of one-off pieces to be made and an expense ledger to behold -- and that would be even before one engine would be figured out.

hey guys well I have Desided to put and Auti trans in and make a custom front end but how I fine all the right Angles for the Suspension
and all that stuff thanks.

The Audi tranny will be turning the wrong way and you can't flip an Audi trans' R&P. Your looking at a lot of wasted time and money here, but as long as your having fun right?! :bawling:

OOOOH, maybe you've decided to go mid-engine? Well if that's the case I'm all for the Audi tranny. 5000s seem to be a very strong and inexpensive option. Of course your still only rear wheel drive, but that's OK. How about attaching to Suby motor to your Audi trans? That would be a killer combo. I might try that one next. Sti and Audi seems to be a good fit huh? Of course there's the custom rear suspension to be designed and built, and you've still got to deal with the fact that the front end is a seriously oldschool design, but if your only going autocross you can bend the trailing arms to dial in some serious negative camber.

Jason

hey nonono I want to KEEP it aircooled forsure what if I use a porche trans
in it's staying aircooled forsure like I said so it would have to be a trans that I have to swop out and make a custom front for it. any ideas??

"What we have here is a failure to communicate". I'm done, your not understanding what is involved here whatsoever. Do some homework, ask some questions, and then LISTEN TO THE ANSWERS. :sleep:

Your getting WAY over your head here, slow down and get some education about what your talking about. It will all work out much better that way. What exactly are you looking for? Something different? Something expensive? Something that looks cool? Something that performs well in a straight line, in corners? Figure out what your going for first. Then you figure out how much that will cost, then you re-evaluate where your going again.

I'd like to help you out, but your really not making a lot of sense. I've been down this road before with other forum members. Some of them are now selling their projectsl on The Samba due to not figuring it out right from the start.

A good place to start would be your budget. How much can you afford to put into this thing?

Jason

I am not sure why you want to do all this work and still keep it aircooled? If you are willing to spend the cash on matching 2300cc turbo motors why not fork out the cash for a twin turbo Suby motor? That would "kill those rice burners."

Mike

If you want to keep it aircooled and still run AWD I definitly would recommend tracking down a complete Vanagon Syncro gearbox/drivetrainand use a Type-4 engine with it. I feel that would be the only affordable way... :rolleyes:

"I think once you said that, you've said it all." :laugh:

hey thanks for your input I think that I'm going to do the type 4 and vonwagon set up thanks guys.

Knock yourself out. This should be interesting, keep us updated. :laugh:

Hey Jason, ever see the TT with the twin engine setup? They actually figured all that crap out, single shifter ran both trannies, what a nightmare! Fast as stink, heavy as a tank, but different.


Jeff-

I did! I think it was MTM. That thing was insane, literally. About $100k to I think.

Jason

PS, BTW, I think Jeff is probably the worst thread hijacker EVER! ;)

HEY! Wait just a doggone minute! My post was relevant to the conversation... sorta... kinda. Well at least this topic is why I thought about that crazy project. :p


Jeff-

hey hey well tha's sweet. send the link I want to see it.

I think if you wanna "kill those rice burners", you'd put tons of japanese parts in your bug (your only chance is the subaru to build an AWD bug)..but you'll drop out lot of $$$ to build a "rice burner bug"...and it's only advantage is that it's something new. From that money you could bulid an extremly fast subaru + a nice daily driver bug.. Keep it aircooled? Forget it!
2 years ago I was planning to put a subaru engine in my bug. First i thought about an 1.8T from a '82er Subaru Leone (I know that in the States it has a different name, but I can't remember..maybe "Sedan" or stg like this) you can buy it very cheap and we were thinking about using it's own tranny and diff."s and everything..so we were planning to make a fully custom built 1.8T AWD Beast. Needed just 2 hours of thinking to realize that it won't work. just wanna let you know that one of the "group" was a well known person in the motorsport life who has bulit a lot of rallycross beasts..but not mine :( it's not impossible, but requires plenty of time+$$$+subarus :D Just to end the story, than I wanted an EJ20T in it, than an EJ25/EJ20and finally I'll run with a 2.0L type4 simply on the rear wheels....so be careful with the "big dreams, big ideas";)

Not really sure I'll agree with you...

In the 80's there was one rally Superbeetle that was AWD. It ran a 2,3 something Type-4, turbo, 80's spec. fuel injection (8 coldstart injectors..), TRW transmission. 0-60mph in 2,3 seconds on dirtroads... It was a fullbody Super.

The 80's Group-B rallycars had no chance what so ever against it...

This all happened here in Finland..:agree:

haha that's sweet see that's something that I want to have how did the AWD work in it do you know??
thANKS.

Well, just like any rearengine AWD.... Transmission design was basically the same as on bugs and rear engine Porsches. Only difference was the custom made axle to the front. I dont remember what parts were used in the front though..

I still suggest the Vanagon option... Strong transaxle and all parts available..:agree:

Heb, don't encourage him. The rally car was probably $60k to build back then if you had someone do it.

I talked to a vanagon syncro guy today with a 1.8t VW motor in it at Bugorama. He does these conversions for a living. He says it is EASY to break first gear, and there are NO upgrade parts as far as he is aware. So, a syncro setup, while costing you plenty of time and money, will STILL not be able to handle anywhere near the power to "kill those riceburners" as well it will still tend to oversteer badly with the weight hanging off of the rear end.

I'm not even sure why I'm writing, I guess its in the hopes that chugabug will get a clue. If you want to build a fun bug, go for it. If you want to build a competitive autocrosser, look elsewhere. If you just want to blow $$$$$, take lot's of pictures so we can see it being spent.

Lazylongboarder is miles ahead of you in the planning department and he's starting from scratch after spending thousands on his stuff. You have to do some planning and research before you start something like this, and not just on GermanLook, because nobody here has done anything similar to this except Bobtail, me, and a couple others who are still in progress.

Here's something just so you get an idea how far you can go and never get there:

http://www.freewebs.com/dobergoose/picture.html

You can see how much work and though went into this, and it's never run.

Here's another, done by guys with plenty of fabrication experience:

http://www.centralvwaudi.com/Beetproj.htm

The project was sold non-functioning.

I'm not encouraging this in any way, but here are pics of the only AWD performance bug I'm aware of:

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/G...811/index.html


Jason

Heb, don't encourage him. The rally car was probably $60k to build back then if you had someone do it.

I talked to a vanagon syncro guy today with a 1.8t VW motor in it at Bugorama. He does these conversions for a living. He says it is EASY to break first gear, and there are NO upgrade parts as far as he is aware. So, a syncro setup, while costing you plenty of time and money, will STILL not be able to handle anywhere near the power to "kill those riceburners" as well it will still tend to oversteer badly with the weight hanging off of the rear end.

I'm not even sure why I'm writing, I guess its in the hopes that chugabug will get a clue. If you want to build a fun bug, go for it. If you want to build a competitive autocrosser, look elsewhere. If you just want to blow $$$$$, take lot's of pictures so we can see it being spent.

Lazylongboarder is miles ahead of you in the planning department and he's starting from scratch after spending thousands on his stuff. You have to do some planning and research before you start something like this, and not just on GermanLook, because nobody here has done anything similar to this except Bobtail, me, and a couple others who are still in progress.

Here's something just so you get an idea how far you can go and never get there:

http://www.freewebs.com/dobergoose/picture.html

You can see how much work and though went into this, and it's never run.

I'm not encouraging this in any way, but here are pics of the only AWD performance bug I'm aware of:

http://www.davesport.com/cgi-bin/davesport/old_bug.html


Jason

WOW, have you got any pics?? sounds impressive! :D

Do you know Atle Vik? he is from norway and years ago he bulit a bug with an RX-7 Wankel engine...on www.wrc.no you can find sweet videos of the car ;) it's amazing that those engines can go till 10000 rpm...that red bug is just like speed motor bikes..you are waiting it to gear up but never happens :D If I bulit a drag bug it would be wankel-powered..

Here you have the perfect frontaxle kit...:laugh:

Porsche-964-911-Carrera-4-Allrad-Vorderachse

that's sweet but I think that I'm going to use an 915 tranns with a padel shift kit :eek: