its a little boring when the round peg has to go in the round hole every time :rolleyes:

A lot of people are talking in this forum about how german look is not regimented , and has the freedom to do a lot of different things . I like the ability to try different things . Saying it has to be aircooled with a Porsche fan shroud or its not german look is very much a big contrast to that way of thinking . I want to put a scooby engine in a bug , so that means its no longer german? I think its time to pull your head from the sand and realize that not everything has to be just one way . This hobby is as diverse and diffeent as everyone who is in it . If we all had the same style with the same engine and the same shroud with the same whatever else , then this hobby would get real boring real fast!

Hi

To me the German Look has three main aims, to make a rear engined VW, stop better, go better & handle better, to do this you are able to use components from other car makers, if your doing that your doing the GL thang.

Steve

:rockon: :D

A round peg could fit in a triangle, a square, or a slightly oblong circle. It just depends on what day of the week it is.

+1 ;)

In Germany I have seen really nice bugs that had a tuned 1600 type 1 with just wider but stock looking wheels which definately had the german-style all over them.

:rockon::rockon::rockon:

The one overriding element that defines Germanlook for me (oh how I hate that description - GermanLOOK) is excellence in engineering both in the thought and the execution not in creating a style - the look/style comes from the engineering. Remember "God is in the details".
You could still throw all the usual components at a bug shell and not acheive the result. Alternatively, you could put it all together with the standard basics but with improvements along the way all to improve performance and that to me would be 'Germanlook'. If you sit there with the catalogue open selecting your list of parts for the 'look' then you are not a true afficionado.

Sorry I did not write my opinion in order to create enemies. We are talking about the identity of a car. The identity of a car is the powerplant and in our case is air cooled. I do not care if the car runs on fuchs, bbs, cup's, standard iron wheels, etc. The powerplant though must be air cooled. I understand that a high performance subaru motor is extremely cheap in comparison to a high performance type I or type IV but when somebody fits a subaru and starts cutting metal from the car then the identity changes. It becomes a customized car.

Hi

You wont make enemies here, we all can value each others opinion with getting our kickers in a twist.

Steve

What do you think, where is the gap between germanlook and racelook? Just because actually all the "ethalon germanlookers" are for track use only..for me it means they are true race cars. What about the daily drivers? I think "the classic" germanlook means a street legal car inspired by the kafer-cup's cars and not a car that is as fast (or even faster) on track as a real race car. It has to be a powerful engine (aircooled or not is a big question), better brakes, suspensions and bigger wheels like the standard ones. As we are talking about a style, they don't have to be real time attack machines, enough if they have the modern/race feeling in my opinion. (I'm not talking about the 20" chrome rims and stuff like this) To own a GL means that you have a bug that is at least as fast and reliable as the nowdays cars on the road but much more impressive and unique.

As bogara said, maybe one of the most acurate definitions for germanlook, or a modern driving car under a bugs shell..

Friendly

Dimitrios

I agree with Bogara as far as the bug has an air cooled powerplant

So, If it has to be aircooled then I suppose that a Porsche 911 would apply? (ignore how difficult it is to fit - that is part of the engineering exercise and I have seen Porsche engined cars in the magazinesthat are definitely Germanlook) Then if that applied what about the watercooled heads that are available on Porsches and then reaching a logical conclusion the current water cooled Porsche boxers could be fitted and they would apply (or not?).
Does it have to be rear engined? or will mid engine do? if that will front engine still apply?
For me as I said, it is little about look or style as those are too superficial, it is about engineering excellence. You only have to look at the main purveyors of German aircooled parts and systems to understand the philosophy. There are few others world wide that are in the same mould.

Clive

I agree with the engineering excellence. It sounds nice to my ears. On the other hand I would never cut any metal from my car in order to fit a 911 engine in order to create "an engineering excellence". 911 engines fit really nice to bays and type 3/25 vans and chias because they have lots of space and you can avoid cutting metal from the structure, but beetles have to stick to the smaller 4 cylinder units. As I stated before my only concern is the powerplant, not the brakes, alloys, interior. The heart of our car is the 4 cylinder air cooled unit.

I think of GL as being more modern, more cutting edge, which Porsche often leads, and of course they've switched to water cooling to keep up. Water cooling fits right into my idea of GL because without it long term reliability with big power is near impossible. My idea of the concept of this site is to showcase cars that can keep up with modern cars, not only in performance numbers, but also longevity.

Jason

'To keep up' with...what exactly?
To keep with your example: Porsche only switched to watercooling because of environmental (read: noise, emission) reasons, not for longlivity reasons. I think they made some extremely potent aircooled engines, proving to us that watercooling is not necessary to keep 'long term reliability'.
I kinda followed porsche's idea's and can report they were right ;) :D

If anyone really feels watercooling is engineering progress (there is certainly a point there), why don't they use the waterboxer as the next step? Subaru, Honda, Alfa engines all seem to be used solely to get a bit more power from OEM engines, so they didn't need to think about designing/tuning that part (the engine) themselves...
Calling it 'engineering progress' afterwards is just wrong therefore imo.

But I love all of you guys as fellow gearheads anyways, so don't sweat it ;)
Walter

It seems to me that this point is debatable , and is a matter of opinion . In my opinion , the GL is about taking a car that is 30+ years old , and bringing it up to more modern standards . Like said before , making the car stop , go , and handle better .

You can guess from my screen name were I fall in the air/water cooled debate. But that is a personal choice.
What defines German Look to me? It is a simple question. If Porsche had built a Beetle (or Bus, or type 3, or Ghia, etc), what would it be? = German Look. If they had offered an RS, RSR or GT version. What would it be? = Bad A$$ German Look.

:D^^^^^^^what he said^^^^^^^:D

I think a built-up air cooled engine is awesome , and I have no problems with using one , but when talking power and reliability , my personal choice would be a scooby engine just because you don't have to do any mods to reach 300HP , and therefore are not comprimising any reliability . Also , being a wayer cooled car , its easier to heat the interior with a heater core . That may not mean much to some of you in the lower 50 , but where I live , warm weather doesn't last too long . As I said before , its a matter of opinion .

If VW have ever decided to evolution an aircooled engine during the past years.............. then it would definatelly be a Subaru boxer:D

Not a chance. If that was the case then why the new beetle has a 4 cylinder in line watercooled engine and not a subaru boxer. Even for marketing sake a subaru boxer would have been more appropriate due to the sound and all but it didnt happen. May be they know something we don't.:cool:

Wrong. They have built it on the Golf IV drivetrain. That's the reason. It's cheaper to adapt Golf drivetrain then building new one that can accept Subaru Boxer.

Subaru and Porsche are working together on boxer engines. Even today. Subarus even have some parts that say "Made in Germany by Porsche".

And I believe that even Dr. Porsche would consider Suby way as a perfect way of Bug evolution.

Even Toyota makes a deal with Subaru for the production of FT-86 which is a a revolution of AE-86 with subaru DOHC engine inside;)

So...what your saying is that this fact makes a Toyota basically also german-look ?

This discussion is going nowhere...

Yep! and I for one think that it was an enjoyable exercise.;) I like the informed debate even if it raises seemingly contradictory views. carry on........

Clive

Toyota has nothing to do with the germanlook definition,I'm just share my thought on MX67's post ...if this is not a problem...

I think we should leave that politics about whick automaker is using which engine. It's about cutting costs. Perriod. Advertising is seccond reason. Perriod.

And what is German Look then?

German Look is scene which continued with Beetle evolution when Volkswagen had to gave up.

German Look is making of GT3 or GT2 out of Beetle respecting Porsche philosophy.

Everyone has a different view of what GL is. That is the cool thing about it. I can see that the flat 4 Suby is a fit in some ways (flat 4, rooted in German design) though it was never offered by VW. I can see the type 4 in one though it only came in a Bus/411/412 from VW but does have a connection to Porsche in the 914/912E. Some like body trim and some do not. Water is 8.5 lbs per gallon. Add water = add weight, add audio system = add weight, add anything (big wheels/tires, huge brakes) = add weight. Every action has a reaction. Does the reaction justify the action. That is what we all figure out as we plan our projects. How far we move from the core and how far we stretch what is "German" will differ.
There are many VW fanatics who say the Golf was the death of the real VW and many Porsche fanatics who say that the 993 was the last real Porsche. For these fanatics, there is no changing that view.
We own car from back in the day when one side of the family (VW) made plain cars for the masses and the other side of the family (Porsche) produced racing cars that wowed people and dominated their classes at races like Le Mans. As German Look fanatics, we want to blur that line between VW and Porsche and build cars that will shock people when they are beaten by a Beetle. We all (German Look fanatics) love it when the underdog lays the smackdown on the conceded one with the pedigree. That is the common bond for us. That is why most of us are here. We are all a bit different and our methods may differ but we all want to lay the smackdown on the pretty one with the pedigree and look mean doing it.

So , hypothetically speaking , I take a beetle and decide to put a waterboxer from a vanagon in it . Its still a VW engine , but according to the arguments made , not being aircooled means its not a VW . What are the thoughts on that!

Did I say that? I can see the Suby mill in a GL. I'm not ready to do it, but I would not tell anyone not to. I see the connection to it. It's a flat 4 with German ties. I say do it and do it right. It's just not for me. But I do respect the Suby conversion, the STI version is a powerhouse. Some folks are diehard aircooled, I am one of those folks. But my way is not the only way and I know it.

Count me in please:cool::cup1:

I hope that includes the part, "But my way is not the only way and I know it."

That is a lot more civil and accepting than "must have" and "end of story" from your first post.

I can go to a 300-car car show and walk away saying I wouldn't own 295 of them. But I bet I appreciate at least 200 of them.

Everyone has their preferences. I would hate to see differences in preferences escalate into something where folks aren't welcome or at least would find this site no fun to attend. I saw that at another site. In the end, there were no winners. Just losers. And hurt feelings.

Amen

Hello to all of there

i believe that everyone that has a german looker dreamed to have at least 200hp aircooled power behind him!
but sometimes dreams are affordable...
subys,mazdas,golfs, are agood choise power to money ratio but only at the starting point because at the end your bils and problems are more than an aircooled plant.
Anyway everyone is making his choise and everyone of us see and learn.

thanks.

Totally agree with this!! There are many different styles for GL , and I can appreciate that some people don't want anything but aircooled . Just don't tell me that I can't have anything else .

You should build your bad a$$ suby powered GL. I want to see it. Hell I want to take a ride in it. I hope it lives up to everything you dreamed it would be. I am sure it will be a wicked performer.I have lots of respect for the STI engine ad think it is a great option. But when you put a radiator in a car that did not have one, you need thick skin to deflect the comments of those who are traditional hard core aircooled. Most of the jabs are not that pointed and said in fun. Were I work, we bust each others chops every chance we get but it is all in fun. That said, if you let people know something bothers you, that is all you will get until you get over yourself. Then next time it is your turn. I work with the best group of guys anyone could ask for. If I really need them. They would all be here as soon as they could to help. We bust each other up like brothers, but we have each others back like brothers too.
Welcome to the family.

You should build your bad a$$ suby powered GL. I want to see it. Hell I want to take a ride in it. I hope it lives up to everything you dreamed it would be. I am sure it will be a wicked performer.I have lots of respect for the STI engine ad think it is a great option. But when you put a radiator in a car that did not have one, you need thick skin to deflect the comments of those who are traditional hard core aircooled. Most of the jabs are not that pointed and said in fun. Were I work, we bust each others chops every chance we get but it is all in fun. That said, if you let people know something bothers you, that is all you will get until you get over yourself. Then next time it is your turn. I work with the best group of guys anyone could ask for. If I really need them. They would all be here as soon as they could to help. We bust each other up like brothers, but we have each others back like brothers too.
Welcome to the family.

Well , I had the same thing at my last shop . Having been there 6 years , I got to know everyone quite well . I have only been at the new shop for 5 months , but already the busting of the chops is happening , and I am getting to know the guys . As far as the car goes , I am currently looking for a base to start with . I am hoping to find somethinh by the summer to start working on . I would love to find a 75-77 super . Not too many around my area . As far as the water cooled engine goes - bust my chops , have fun with it ! I can take the ribbing and the shots . I am just saying don't be closed to the idea of an alternate power source and tell me my car is not a true VW because its not air cooled .