Pauter big block 3140cc type 4
 

Hey all.
I would like to know the potential of Pauter’s big block 3140cc type 4 engine in terms of horsepower with the following changes

A lot wilder camshaft, raised compression ratio from 8.25:1 to 10.5:1 or even to 11.5:1, 50’s or even 52's throttle bodies, a good ecu, 100 octane gas and of course dry sump.

Any ideas? Do you think is possible the 300bhp benchmark????

i think the pauter motor is a type 1 style engine useing type 4 main bearing sizes. saying that i dont think you can really call it a type 1 engine as you can build one with out useing any vw parts :lmao:
the power output sounds about right though.

No the new motor case is a type 4 all around. Anyway I have contacted Pauter and they told me that this bhp can be achieved but they are worried with the cooling issues

TSAF,

I haven't been over to their site, but any insight on the price of this type 4 style case..
Alex

If you are serious Autocraft can easily exceed the 300bhp mark.
You just need around 22k US $ and you are set,,,

[QUOTE=Jim Hunter;78028]If you are serious Autocraft can easily exceed the 300bhp mark.
You just need around 22k US $ and you are set,,,[/Q

I bought my moldex crank from them. The point is that their engines are not suitable for everyday use. Therefore only pauter can help. I know Remmele has a 3 liter type 4 as well but for some reason he is not responding to any emails.

It is common that they will not respond at e-mails...Call them they speak English French and German very well 00497221-972224 and 00497221-972225...
As for the cooling it is a issue as with the temps that we have here is good only for "winter driving" !!!

I am seriously thinking of selling my 2.7 type 4 motor and my M3 in order to finance the pauter engine with a hewland gearbox.

What Hewland box are you thinking of using? The Mk9 (VW case) and the FD200 are only rated at 150lb.ft torque. The alternative quoted is the FTR that is still only rated at 240lb.ft and I would expect that your Pauter would develop more than that. The other thing is that most of the competition 'boxes have dog clutch engagement that is a noisy pain on the street. You might be better off with a G50 + oil cooling that'll just about handle the torque although it'll need some chassis mods.

Clive

That's my type of VW nut!!! You got a dream, we only live once, go after it! I am in the process of selling my STI for funding my next VW project!:)

Pauter Big Block for Chrysler or Ford main bearing saddles
includes: wet or dry sum pan, top & front covers, flywheel plate, distributor clamp & misc fasteners goes for 2700 usd.

Only one MAJOR problem to my plans. Here in Greece the financial situation is a mess at the moment, therefore there is no-one buying.

I talked with Mike from Autocraft but their case is not suitable for type IV application. Therefore the only brand new case on the market comes from Pauter only.

I would be conserned about cooling also using a Pauter Motor on the street.The Pauter Pro heads are great and the motors are awesome,but not designed for street use.I know Remmele well,and he is hard to get a hold of by phone and email sometimes.If you are interested in a 3 liter or larger from Remmele send me a pm with your name,phone number,email and address and I´ll try to get a hold of him for you.;)

Also,I would rather go with a Porsche gearbox if you plan on 300BHP.A Hewland will not hold the torque.Remmele´s 3 liter puts out 350NM,the Pauter won´t be any less either.An early G50 short nose or a late model 915 will work without any problems.You can of course have a bug gearbox built to take that power aswell.

After discussing with my mechanic we decided to keep the 901 gearbox. After the rebuild my 901 (bugat5-speed kit included) is brand new since I changed every moving part with Powerhaus custom gear ratios. Therefore I will keep the tranny. The point is that to find a buyer for my 2.7 type IV motor and then I will proceed either with Pauter or with Remmele.

I've heard that Remmele is working on a 3.6-3.8l based upon a new crankcase.More specifically a 96 X 112 Type4 with his own case and Deutz Cylinder. (3700 ccm). Has anyone heard anything about that?

How much larger can they get? The BIG issue will be balancing the reciprocating mass and on such a short engine the crank is going to look horrible. I suspect that we will see a massive external damper and mallory plugs in the counterweights.

The Pauter Super Pro casing looks good but will 'only' accommodate 108mm pistons and note that they don't show the billet crank in any of the component photos. The Pauter is limited to 3.5 litres and reputedly put out over 900bhp and rev'd to 9k on the dyno!

Clive

Its a pity they do not persue the limits of the type 4 casing some more and instead put R&D time in a new case. I think there is much more to gain still, especially after he has casted his own heads.
If you start making your own case, its so far off anything VW, I start loosing interest. But thats entirely personal of course.
Its odd from a marketing standpoint too: there is loosing interest in most things performance type 4 related and then in a recession, a new case is being made!?
Cooling an even larger engine on the streets might be a challenge too...

Wally I think that the limitations of the type 4 casing are the studs that hold the heads. I have done a 5th stud conversion to mine in order to make sure that we will not have any leaks. Anyway I believe that still is VW because even on the new case the idea still remains the same.

Your describing a head warping problem here above, not an engine case limit imo.

Even so: How do you explain my 500Nm/400hp at 24 psi boost with non-welded, many times machined (=futher weakened) 103mm bore turbo'd original type 4 heads?
And I don't just drag race them, but much worse: Autobahn and track day use! I do something to them to keep the seal, but its not a 5th or 6 stud...

Sure, at some point studs will always become a problem: even new EVO's, Honda's and WRX-STi's replace their factory studs and use ARP head studs in larger diameters for there high-hp turbo'd engines.

Therefore, by the above reasoning/proof: the type 4 case is fine as a base for much more hp then you and I will ever run. Stiffer/stronger heads would surely help, but only if head cooling ability is not compromised!

Greets,
Walter

I understand what you are saying Wally but you see I am not a big fun of turbo charged engines. I know that they give out impressive numbers (like yours) but in Greece the summer is extremely hot and Athens as every other big city has a LOT OF TRAFFIC and when I say a lot I mean A LOT. The biggest type iv engine comes from Remmele again which is a 3,1 and as I have been told the engine runs perfectly even on heavy traffic. Her temp is always on normal numbers, therefore I believe that he have solved the cooling issues. On the other hand when I asked Pauter about his long block he told me that I will have temperature issues. The normal aspirated type 4 case cannot go beyond the 3.1 ltr and trust me, everything is extremely tide in there which might become an issue.

So, your suggesting that my turbo engine gets hotter then a very large n/a version?
-> in normal daily driving (between 2000 and 3000 rpm), my engine is just a n/a engine with very low CR, so it usually runs a lot cooler then a large n/a...
That also applies (even more) in Athens ;)
..and has nothing to do with cases or head studs.

The only application a Pauter cased engine would make sense imho is on the drag strip in a blown application above 750hp.

The torque he gets with his 3,1 ltr can easily be matched or exceeded with a type 4. Wrenchride his engine he just posted here on GermanLook engineforum is a perfect example i think ;)

Wally do not take me wrong because I am not into the turbocharged engines. As I told you above I am extremely impressed with the figures of your engine. I am just telling you that the original case limitations are the 105mm pistons. Even with the 105 pistons the walls of the case are extremely thin. You cannot go bigger on an original type 4 case. That's it. As far as the cooling issues is concerned I am sure that your engine runs cool, but what happens when you want to play a little bit and after a while you suddenly hit a huge jam. I believe that if that happens the large n/a version copes better than a turbocharged.

The type 4 case is pretty strong.The problem with the case imho is not the case itself but the hardware that holds it together,specifically the through bolts.If you´re going to build a large type 4 with a large stroker crank above 84mm and a 105mm bore than larger through bolts are the way to go.I have six 14mm through bolts that Remmele uses in my 3 liter case.A 5th or six stud system causes head leaks in my opinion.I had a 2459cc (71x105) with a 5th stud and the heads leaked.Also,if you are going to build a 3 liter or any type using a 105 bore or larger,then Engine Plus heads or Pauter heads will provide more stability and seal than an original type head.The Remmele heads are not sold to the general public by themselves. If you decide to use an original type 4 head DO NOT use a 5th or sixth stud,it just makes things worse.One option is is o seal the heads the way Porsche did on their turbomotors (aircooled) using a step machined into the head.Also in an NA application the type 4 head reaches it´s limits quickly above 2.7 liters or 220-240BHP - that´s about as high as you can go and maintain somewhat driveability and reliability.If you´re looking for bigger numbers with an NA type 4,then different heads like Engine Plus are inevidable imho.Will a large Pauter or Autocraft have the same reliability as say a 2.7 type 4 with original heads or say a ca. 300hp 3 liter Remmele engine with the big heads? I don´t know....

As a side note: a turbocharged engine does not run hotter in traffic than an NA engine - just the opposite actually,because the heads on a high strung NA Engine usually are less efficient in cooling than a stock head with its large ports,high compression ratio,large duration/overlap cam etc..Most turbocharged engines have mild heads and while in traffic are not on boost and are basically a mild NA engine because there is no load on the motor in traffic,have less compression,milder cam,so intake heat and the associated cooling problems do not come up,unless improperly engineered;)

No worries, its just a discussion on arguments ;)

Totally agree. Just saying a 2,8-2,9 ltr type 4 with 103mm bore can be made so that it gives equal or better power. So you don't need 105mm bore when using a type 4 based engine.
That was the point I tried to make above.

Ah! I have experienced that your last statement is just not true! NOT TRUE (to make that extra clear).
and for all the reasons I already mentioned above.

I must work on expression myself better...:o

I don;t have a problem with you or anyone not liking a turbo engine, but the pre-judgements surrounding it are hard to get over obviously, even if I proved them all wrong.
Its also why I call my bug sometimes 'Mythbuster'... ;)

Exactly.I´m not convinced that a 105 mm bore will make more noticeable power than the same engine with a 103mm bore.;)

I remember the days where Wally was just as skeptical about turbos much like some of his critics today that he has proven wrong in many things.I´ve always been pro turbo and Wally´s Mythbuster has shown me some new aspects and busted some myths that I believed in or experienced myself.90% of my turbo experience comes from aircraft engines,so I learn more everyday especially with all the tuning possibities that EFI/motormanagements offer.Some things that used to be a problem can be basically tuned away...:D

Quite right Mark. I still like a high revving n/a even more for the sound and response I think, but the shear power a turbo can make is just so much more fun then a pretty noise only :D

Now if some-one said a turbo engine is more complex and adds expense, I totally agree, but thats the only true argument I never hear... all the other arguments are just prejudice and/or bad-tuning/design related.

But lets get back to topic ;)

That is true.A 3783cc. It´s in the works as we speak,but not available yet. It has 5 main bearings and the cam sits 6mm lower than a type 4 case.The cylinder spacing will be the same as a type 4 ,so he can use his heads,but with a wider studspacing IIRC and will have Deutz cylinders.The case will be able to use type 4 cams and lifters.

The 3 liter is already faster from 0-200km/h than the current 997 Porsche GT3 RS by about 1 second. The 3 liter in Remmele´s bug will make the sprint to 200Km/h in 11,5 seconds,top speed is about 250km/h.

Thats actaully pretty nice engineering wise :)
I am very doubtfull though how the thick short finned steel Deutz cylinders and his solid heads can cool cylinders that are that close together (now room for cooling air anymore between barrels). No air through the heads like original heads and no air through the cylinders must give cooling problems on the autobahn surely?
and that ^^ is very cool, but hard to believe as well :rolleyes: It would mean a 1/4 mile time of low 11's. That seems hardly possible with his street weight and street tires...

He has already built several customer 3.1 (105x88) and 3.2 (106x90) Liter type 4´s with his heads and Deutz cylinders,they seem to work very well together.IIRC they have replaced the JE cylinders he used before on all large type 4s.There are various Deutz cylinders available.Cooling has never been a problem with Deutz cylinders and they are by far the strongest aircooled cylinders available.A lot of maching is required to make them fit,but its worth it.The material gives off heat very well,much better than a stock cylinder.They are designed to work hours on end in the worst imaginable conditions in Industrial applications.The only negative thing I see is that they are very heavy,hard to machine and need a lot of maching to fit.The Remmele heads are cast aluminum.Yes,they are heavy because they were designed for large engines.But the cooling is excellent.They also have a lot of potential that hasn´t been unlocked yet imho.Eddy´s car is not a 1/4 mile car,though.I doubt if it turns low 11´s in street trim.He has 19" wheels on it and the car weighs about 850kg.Hood,decklid,fenders,runningboards are carbon fiber,the rest is stock steel.The transmission is a out of the old 911 carerra 2.7 RSR with the magnesium case.

Very cool to hear Mark! Thats very unexpected as one would assume that alu cylinders would be the very least that would work with such a large engine and those heads.
I agree, his heads and the ports are so large that only a really big engine would fully show their potential.
850kg is very lightweight! All the carbon does work in the end huh? :)
Thanks for the insight! :)

I think he worths every penny.

Me too and he is not more expensive than his competitors either, contrary to popular belief.That´s why I have him do all my machining and buy almost all my engine parts aswell as suspension and carbon fiber parts from him.Granted,he is hard to get a hold of and the wait is usually longer than others but the quality speaks for itself - at least I never had a problem and don´t mind the wait because I get exactly what I want,often better than I expected.The only other "negative" thing I admit is he does not ship to the USA anymore.There are many companies that do not ship outside the USA either,though..

@Wally. Yes,the carbonfiber does pay off.My Fenders are epoxy and almost as light as the carbonfiber ones.Although, I thought his doors were also CF,but they are stock. You should make the drive to his shop sometime.Let me know and I will meet you there.

Oh, but I have been at his shop a few years ago, whilst on holiday. I even made a topic about it with pics and all. There was even a special plenum he had cast for his heads and cooling system. Pity I never saw that again.
I am just so surprised that amongst all the other custom parts he makes, he does not have (made) or use alu-nikasil cylinders :confused:

Wally, do you know these guys?

http://www.lnengineering.com/custom.html

Maybe they can help you out.

I think you misunderstood me a little ;)
My question is: Why doesn't Eddy use alu-nikasil for HIS build engines? All I hear and see is he uses cast iron cylinders...which is not the way forward imo. It may work well in some applications, but even then, alu-nikasil would have worked even better. Why doesn't he use it or, considering everything else he seems to custom make, why hasn't he developed his own alu-nikasil cylinders??

Personally I know rather well where to get stuff, don't worry 'bout that ;)

I am sure he knows something that we don't. He must have his reasons, thats for sure.

Well, he's not God and Porsche showed what type of cylinder was/is preferable in a boxer aircooled engines, so I was wondering what reasons remain...

Maybe he does not have the knowledge or the equipment for nikasils? Who knows?