GermanLook Forums

GermanLook Forums (https://www.germanlook.net/forums/index.php)
-   Suspension (https://www.germanlook.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=12)
-   -   Making a non-super handle (https://www.germanlook.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11085)

SCCAbeetle December 2nd 2010 03:51

Making a non-super handle
 
I know that a regular beetle probably cannot handle as well as a fully tuned out super beetle, but I can get it pretty darn close right?

What all would I have to do?
Is it possible to make a regular beetle handle on the par as say a more modern car?

I have a 1970.

Also, stupid stupid question, can you drift a beetle?

evilC December 2nd 2010 08:55

Fundamentally, the BJ/LP trailing arm design is miles behind the Macpherson strut design and it is doubtful whether you could get close to the same performance in any empirically assessable way.

For a good read:
http://www.amazon.com/Modify-Volkswa.../dp/1903706998 and
http://www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/re...s/handling.htm

Whether you can get a beetle to handle as well as a modern car is also doubtful, irrespective of whether it is a BJ/LP or strut front suspension especially as the design is 40 years old at best, 80 years old at worst. Your '70 beetle will be a swing axle rear that is definitely an 80 year old design that no modern manufacturer would consider. Even the IRS rear is old hat that having been superseded by multi links that do not toe-out in roll for example. Porsche have tamed the wayward 911 IRS rear with multilinks.

All you can do is make the car handle the best it can within the bounds of its ancient design. Its big advantage is that the light weight coupled with the potent power that can be extracted keep it a plausable contender.

You could drift any car with the right modifications. Check out 'You tube' for all the videos.

SCCAbeetle December 2nd 2010 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by evilC (Post 78620)
Fundamentally, the BJ/LP trailing arm design is miles behind the Macpherson strut design and it is doubtful whether you could get close to the same performance in any empirically assessable way.

For a good read:
http://www.amazon.com/Modify-Volkswa.../dp/1903706998 and
http://www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/re...s/handling.htm

Whether you can get a beetle to handle as well as a modern car is also doubtful, irrespective of whether it is a BJ/LP or strut front suspension especially as the design is 40 years old at best, 80 years old at worst. Your '70 beetle will be a swing axle rear that is definitely an 80 year old design that no modern manufacturer would consider. Even the IRS rear is old hat that having been superseded by multi links that do not toe-out in roll for example. Porsche have tamed the wayward 911 IRS rear with multilinks.

All you can do is make the car handle the best it can within the bounds of its ancient design. Its big advantage is that the light weight coupled with the potent power that can be extracted keep it a plausable contender.

You could drift any car with the right modifications. Check out 'You tube' for all the videos.

Its an IRS pan.
I was thinking that I might have to invest in a Mendeola suspension if I really want to make this thing handle.

Now come to think of it my best bet is to make the thing a GL street fun car not super fast and call it a day, get my hands on a 130X (2 or 3) and go to town on that.

judgie December 3rd 2010 04:28

you can make the bj/irs into quite a good handeling car. well a predictable one any way. 2 inch drop all round and adjustable anti roll bars at both end, some good shocks [my choice would be bilstiens] make sure all the bushes and beam bearings are new. then get a good 4 wheel alignment done and experemnet with the settings. The biggest singlle improvement will be some decent rubber on not to wide wheels, i wouldn't go above a 7" wide rim and even thats prob to wide for the front. I see it all the time on the tracks that folk spend thosands on trick suspension then bolt on a set of worn missmatched tyres and wonder why the car wont do what they want. Even a modern 911 will be bad with the wrong tyres.

SCCAbeetle December 3rd 2010 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by judgie (Post 78633)
you can make the bj/irs into quite a good handeling car. well a predictable one any way. 2 inch drop all round and adjustable anti roll bars at both end, some good shocks [my choice would be bilstiens] make sure all the bushes and beam bearings are new. then get a good 4 wheel alignment done and experemnet with the settings. The biggest singlle improvement will be some decent rubber on not to wide wheels, i wouldn't go above a 7" wide rim and even thats prob to wide for the front. I see it all the time on the tracks that folk spend thosands on trick suspension then bolt on a set of worn missmatched tyres and wonder why the car wont do what they want. Even a modern 911 will be bad with the wrong tyres.

Yeah I know how important wheels and tires are.
My VW is taking a... modern Japanese esque route. I would like it to handle and put a decent zippy little engine it, more for spirited daily driving then anything else.

oasis December 3rd 2010 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by judgie (Post 78633)
... then get a good 4 wheel alignment done and experemnet with the settings. The biggest singlle improvement will be some decent rubber on not to wide wheels, i wouldn't go above a 7" wide rim and even thats prob to wide for the front ...

I'm glad you made that point. I had 6's front and back on my 1302. I liked it a lot but, honestly, I have no idea what would be ideal for a Super or a standard. All I knew was whether I was having a boatload of fun or not. Most of the time was YES.

I'm guessing engine choice and brake/suspension set-up plays an important role, too.

Do you have a general guideline with which one should follow?

redhot December 13th 2010 14:40

A question on the side;

side-loads on a standard beetle should transfer through the center torsion bar lock piece to the front beam itself. Has anyone seen any failures on these parts? When one start putting on sticky wide tires and use the car much harder than ever intended it looks fragile (but from experience it is not though)

spannermanager December 14th 2010 12:58

redhot, its not an issue, ive raced both k&l and b/j beams in many disciplines from grass track to rallycross, and circuit racing, all had various means of adjustment, none have ever failed, these days i do preload the arms against side loads with the correct bushes.
they were of course proven by military use in w/w 2 with the kubel and schwimmer, long before we got to lower them with swayaways....

redhot December 14th 2010 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by spannermanager (Post 78772)
redhot, its not an issue, ive raced both k&l and b/j beams in many disciplines from grass track to rallycross, and circuit racing, all had various means of adjustment, none have ever failed, these days i do preload the arms against side loads with the correct bushes.
they were of course proven by military use in w/w 2 with the kubel and schwimmer, long before we got to lower them with swayaways....

The reason for asking is some debate as to how good the generic no-name Puma beams are. The original beam has a depression in the beam itself, gripping into the centre-piece. The Pumas does not, as far as I have seen, this. Only thing then holding this is the shear force from toothed-plate and if that fails the bolt itself shearing against the beam.


Would be nice to see how you made the preload bushes and installation.

spannermanager December 15th 2010 13:08

redhot, i see what you mean, and a very good point! ive never even noticed how the anchor is fixated in the generic puma types, and I've fitted enough of them, but again ive not come across a problem, and my own beams have swayaways by choice. i should have some of these centre sections in the 'useful scrap bin'... time to investigate further...

Sandeep December 16th 2010 14:15

This standard beetle seems to have no issues with handling

http://www.boxergasse.com/assets/images/IMGP0047.JPG http://www.boxergasse.com/assets/ima...Bild_004_1.jpg

http://www.boxergasse.com/html/stefa...tschinger.html

The on board video is pretty amazing as well, indicating that the base BJ suspension is well suited to the task at hand.

Once I get my car back on the road (spring 2011), I'll be able to log G's with my LMA3 and post some data.

Sandeep

spannermanager December 16th 2010 16:48

Hi Sandeep, Expensive kit there! Kevlar wings and all, i don't see an ARB on it, maybe its in mid build, its also possible to build a T/B beam so stiff on the leaves it may not need one, that's if it even has leaves of course, looks like the end housing of a R&P projecting in by the coil over, complete with tender springs. Nice to have all this kit, but open regulations allowing it in the kafer cup in the first place meant it was unsustainable, most competitors where VW traders, and even they blanched at the expense, amateurs could not compete, and of course it led to the demise of the series. but i digress, it would be nice to see some more technical pics anytime soon!!:)

Steve C December 16th 2010 17:25

Hi

Some of the issues facing BJ cars compared to strut cars is the lack of steering lock and that the front track on BJ cars is very narrow.

For predictable handling you need a wider front track than than rear track otherwise the car handles like a trike (exaggerating here) and wants to fall over in the front.

I'll explain, imagine a trike with the single wheel leading, they are very unstable when turning and fall over very easily, watch Mr Bean episodes with the 3 wheel car. Now reverse the trike with the 2 wheels leading and the 1 wheel trailing and you get much more stable turning.

Its best to do what you can with you have with advice offered on this forum.

Steve

DORIGTT December 17th 2010 14:15

Am I imagining things? In that picture, it appears that there is a 'spacer' of sorts on the lower arm, but not the upper. Would this thicker 'spacer' allow greater negative camber because it changes the vertical axis of the spindle assembly? If so, that was sneaky.

spannermanager December 17th 2010 14:28

Steve, your on the ball there, i have 1" wider beam on the circuits now, but as you noticed, s/lock at the limit is governed by the wheel hitting the torsion arm, work continues within the regulations I'm bound with, but im pleased at results so far, testing will resume as soon as the weather lifts new year.
dorigtt, i think the 'spacer' on the lower tube is a plastic bearing as oposed to the stock grease seal on the top one.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:34.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
www.GermanLook.net 2002-2017. All Rights Reserved