Germanlook vw vs. real sportscar or supercar.
 

Few years ago i started to think that if beetle could be built to handle real sportcars, it would be very cool..

I have seen that this is possible to some point so far, what do you think? I think only limit is laws of different countries and poor aerodynamics compared to more modern cars:)

Definetly you dont see too often beetle compared to some more modern sportcar, thats way its nice to surprise people :)

With enough money and engineering..almost anything is possible, and you can still call it beetle. Ok, there is still few limits :)

Well, obviously, you mentioned money, and that certainly will be an issue with some. I see two other concerns -- (1) What sports car is you basis? (2) Where do you draw the line about a bug being a bug?

(1) If you comparing a GL bug to a Mazda Miata, my bug would have lost it before reaching fourth gear. And it only had a carbed 2056 T4 with upgrades in suspension, brakes and tires as well. Things get more difficult when one talks about an RX-7, a Corvette, an NSX, and on and on. At some point at whatever cost, the bug will meet its limit before it reaches some sports cars' limits.

(2) Although theSamba ads for race cars are almost exclusively drag racers, one can see looking through there many "bugs" are nothng more than a shell with fiberglass parts, a special chassis, etc., etc. Is it enough to look like a bug? Then, a New Beetle (including the New New Beetle :rolleyes: ) might be enough. For some, it needs something -- anything -- from an air-cooled bug to qualify. Perhaps the shell attached to the chassis that houses the doors are enough.

To me if the modifications are that robust, a bug starts losing its "buggieness." If the mods are that obvious and over-the-top, a defeated Corvette owner running stock will take solace in knowing you probably spent more money doing-up your bug that he did with his stock Vette, and he will get more -- a lot more -- when it comes to getting something in return.

My opinion only and meant as an insult to no one -- I draw the line when people stop coming up to me and saying, "I used to own one of those." Sure, I had a Super Beetle; I find out they had a '64. I had a modified Type IV engine; they had a 40 HP dynamo. They had 4½-inch wide stock wheels whereas I had BBS's from a limited edition Jetta. Whatever, but to the average Joe or Jane, I had what they once had.

I took more pleasure in making a Corvette sweat than I would have if I went beyond and won, because in doing so people would have said to me, "You sure did change that bug" instead of saying they used to have one, too.

Again, no insult to anyone, but this is precisely why I cannot get excited about Subaru conversions. Even if all of my concerns were truly addressed (and they're not), I would have a car that reminds people of a bug, in most cases still registered as a bug, but is no longer a bug.

That's my opinion. I understand not everyone shares in that opinion. I understand all of the arguments in dealing with T4 part availability, T1 part quality, bang for the buck, and all that. In some cases, I agree. In some cases, I have counterpoints. I'm not looking for trouble. Heck, I have seen some conversions I thought were very nicely done. Even those still crossed a line in my opinion.

Have I said "my opinion" enough to not ruffle feathers? ;)

My point is you asked a general question about a GL versus a sports car. If that's your fancy, you shouldn't give a hoot what I or anyone else thinks. Since you did ask the question, other opinions must hold some weight. There are going to be people like me who think at some point a bug can be modified for perfomance but extend into a different definition than being a GL. There are many opinions and the proof is the old sticky thread discussing the definition of GL. It's 18 pages strong as of this writing.

Ok, basis for my thoughts were beetle with mendeola suspension or prepped 1303 suspension with big porsche brakes, adjustable shocks etc, fat tires, 5-speed transaxles, 2,5-3,0 litre engines N/A or turbo, modified aerodynamics and so on :)

Power to weigth ratio close to modern basic 911's, corvettes and older ferraris. With the same money you can build really nice beetle, if you have engineering skills and time..

But for someones it will not be beetle anymore if it has other engine and trans than t-1 based ones :) I think its still beetle if it has original shape and same boxer 4-cylinder engine behind rear axle :) But i prefer more "hich-tech" type 1 - type 4 - type 5 engines or strange dohc/ohc conversions more than subaru implants :) "Hightech"=Nickies, state of the art heads, big cc, fuel injection, possible turbo etc.

I think that what Alex is asking is the core reason of this forum: upgrading our Beetles to try to perform on par with modern sports cars. I know this bring thousand of variables like to whom to compare with and what modifications to do it. I respect every one opinion but I am one of those who think we can be obtain a very unique machine that can perform with "them". Good examples are the machines from Remmele, LaPerformance,Tafel,GWD and the likes.

my 1303 will hold its own against most sports cars on the hill climbs i do. have been quicker than 911's, lotus elise, the mx5's are a long way behind. this is over a short course with speeds never getting over 100mph.
guess what i'm saying is it depends on how you compaer to sports cars and what your doing with it. short sprints the bug can be very competertive as long as the speeds are kept say below 100mph, once over that then the areo and p[ower of the modern sports car will leave you behind.
drag racing is very differnat as the bug has a advantage over just about any other car, it needs less power to run quick times than most. i have helped run a 2232 turbo drag car that with 240bhp it ran lows 11.s, i also help with a mk2 golf fitted with a 20v turbo thats running over 400bhp which runs high 10's. both are proper drag cars but the fwd golf needs a lot more power to go as quick.

back when i had the type 1 in my car it would destroy those z3 roadsters. b/c the bmw plant is right up the road they are everywhere. since i have had the type4 i have had only one run in with anything. it was a convertible corvette. i ran up on him so fast it scared me and him. he tried his best to get away but couldnt shake me until about 100 mph. i think the aero took over about then. up til then he had a rearview full of orange. im yet to get that extra 100hp i have mounted in the package tray.

There are very few sports cars that be dominant on both the short course and the track. If you watch Top Gear and all of the Stig runs the Nissan GT-R is one of the few cars that can do both. The electronics and power transmission is just getting better and better on new cars every year. Last year Car and Driver magazine (I think) pitted the newest 370Z vs. the latest Mitsu. Evo from the showroom. The Nissan looked a lot faster on paper, 200lbs. lighter, obviously lower and sleeker than the four-door sedan, guess who won though on the track course though--the Evo.

Even in a hopped up 1303 with as much power to weight ratio, I still wouldn't feel as safe in an equally fast 911 above 100mph, but that's me. Now, if you're talking short course events like autocross, a bug can be made just as competitive. Difficult to do with a 40 year old car, but it can be done. New cars have the advantage because everything is still so solid. Power is not the most important thing on a short course though. An '89 Honda CRX with all of 100 hp stock, but a completely dialed-in suspension and tires will still pull some of the fastest raw times of the day, as fast as a Lotus Elise or S2000 or Z06. It's how much momentum you can carry and how nimble you can be around a course.

I took a picture of my bug at last Saturday's autocross, it won't upload here, but even with the car lowered and next to all of the other usual suspects my roofline was the highest (except for a Toyota Matrix out there). I attract a lot of attention and run a basically stock engine. I don't dominate my class but my engine/trans are not even close to what the limits allow. I have a lot of fun and keep up with everyone else. If my car is slower, it's only a little slower compared to cars which easily have 2-5 times as much power :lmao:.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g3...20108-0925.jpg

I think your plan puts you well on your way to your desired results. Post your progress. Reading everyone's projects keeps me interested in getting back into the game even though my eyes have been straying a bit lately.

Have you seen the videos of Armin Klein's beetle?
Its a proper bug, original torsion front suspension with only minor mods afaik.
That basically answers your question with a big fat YES!

As a general rule I strongly believe:
"Any" stock/original car will be outhandled and out-accelerated by "any" modified car.

The more the extreme supercar you will name, the more the extreme my modified car example will be. And the modified car will eventually win as there is hardly a limitation to man's ingenouety (sp?), but stock will always be stock.

Lets wrench on! :)

Yes, i have seen, his car makes porsches on the track look like they trying come backwards :D


I think also that your car is one of the best example here, Wally :) Lots of power, good handling, big brakes and improved little bit aerodynamics :)