Turbo placement for Type 4 engine converted bug
 

I'm leaning more towards a small (1971cc) T4 turbo'd engine (9-10 psi max boost) now than a 2.5L NA motor. I've got the book 'Turbomania' from CB performance and I know its a little outdated but there is some great information in there.

I've found out that you can get turbo-prepped Weber IDF's (Blow-through) now aswell so perhaps I can swap my webers for the turbo-prepped ones.

I'm just doing the research on a turbo system now.

I have 2 questions :

1. Can I use my BAS header and bolt an extension to it to place the turbo (undecided size yet) near the transaxle, but higher than the engine sump ? Or do I need a specific turbo header ? I was hoping to be able to use the BAS but not modify it at all.

2. Does the turbo header have to be a really short combination or can it be longer ? It seems like the headers I have seen tend to be built with turbo placement as the governing factor instead of correct header length ?

I'm really excited about this possibility also because there seems alot more people who are trying this. EBay has some good turbo deals ($ 250 USD for a rebuilt T03) right now.

Thanks for any input.

Sandeep

I think you could use your BAS header. You may experience a little turbo lag because of the distance the gases must travel but if you ceramcic coat it inside and out, that will help some. The key is keeping the heat in the exhaust gases.

ken

sandeep i just wrote u a reply and i pressed the wrong button and i lost it .......
its all trial and error
i havnt even run my set up yet....
but my turbo is a long way from the cylinder heads..so i possibly may have a bit of lag..but you can get round this with a correctly sized turbo and correct diameter tubing..
if you look in the cb perfomance book at the turbo 914 the pipe lenghts are massive but the caption tells of how great the performance is....Dont listen to every one try what you think will work then if it doesnt try again
this hobby is all about given it a go......
NUTTA

Thats why I installed the FAT 911 setup. I kept reading that it would not fit a beetle with a decklid .. even the folks at FAT told me it would not fit. Guess what ? With a LITTLE modification, it does fit !

I saw the 914 pic in the Turbomania book and that is what prompted the question. Thanks for the responses !

I will get the header ceramic coated, and the dia of tubing after the collecter on the header is 2" OD. so I guess it will be 2" up to the turbo flange.

I am not looking for crazy HP .. looking for about 150hp to start with on a stock 914 2.0

I'm working through understanding the A/R ratio and how to determine what turbo to choose. I'm sure I will have more questions !

Sandeep :D

Here's what I mean by keeping my BAS header. The idea in the pic is the same but the location of the turbo will change ! See how the header is stock but a pipe is made up to mate the header with the turbo.

Sandeep

hhm i reckon thatll definately do the biz..is yours going to be a draw through or blow thru..??

I'm planning blow-through but that could change as I do more research. :eek:

Sandeep

I will be introdcing the "2058 T" engine very soon.....This is a Turbo, long stroke, long rodded engine that does not require Nickies to keep the heads sealed running boost.....225 BHP is the proposed power, we'll see when we get it on the dyno.

NOTE: These engines will not be sold complete, they will be sold with cooling system and tested with carbs. Customer will be responsible for Turbo, and exhaust/induction systems and their configuration(I will aid when needed)

*Blow-through will make more power than a draw-through set-up.
*Intercooling will also help your hp numbers. I'm tring to figure out a way to run a intercooler. I was on friends computer doing a couple of different projections, just by adding an intercooler I can make an extra 40 - 60 horses. I know a lot of VW don't use them but it's worth it.

I'm currently building a turbo motor. Like you I'm also doing the research, but as I go.
2110 - 82mm crank, 90.5pistons, with 5.6 rods.
I purchased the CB hideaway turbo header and fuel injected throttle bodies, Electromotive Tec2 computer, CB street eliminator heads ported, polished, and redesigned the dome a little to reduce hot spots and increase air flow. Because of the header I can't use a t-4 exhaust housing but I wanted to. Turbo setup consist of a lot of trial and error. I'm starting with a t3/t4b with a .63 exhaust side. I really want to come close to or break the 300hp mark using a T1 case.

4400,

That's great. Let me know how the Tec2 works for you because I want to go FI in the future after I get this engine set up.

My car is going to be off the road in a couple of weeks (stored for winter) so thats when the R&D will start.

Where would you place the intercooler ? What boost range do you start needing an intercooler ? I want to keep the car looking stock (keep decklid on) so I think alot of the system will have to be under the car, in the transaxle area.

Possibly ducting cool air to the intercooler in an option ?

Sandeep

I'm not sure yet, the only place I can think about is behide the rear seat. I want to kept the lid on (sleeper).

You really don't need an intercooler at all, but it only helps. Remeber the cooler you kept the air the more power you will produce. When you crank up the boost, compressing the air into the motor it will result in more power. At the same time you will be losing the potentional of a lot more power because the more you compress the air the hotter it gets. Water injection is a good thing too, if you don't want to run an intercooler. I hope that is of some help. It all depends how much power you want to make.

if you want serious power you need a cooler,i have gone for a charge cooler as there isnt much room for an air to air cooler or intercooler. engines like nice cool dense air so cooling the air with a cooler is the way to do it.hot air leads to pr-ignition etc you can spray water into the engine to help cool but its not really an answer.you cant depend on a tub of water to look after your engine.
if you look at my pictures on the 2.1chargecooler post you will see the location of my cooler,and the radiator in the front wheel well.i have lost all the space behind the rear seat but id rather have a turbo than a bass box sat there....?Turbo mania isnt out dated its a great book for learning what every thing is the book im reading is MAXIMUM BOOST BY CORKY BELL>> its great a stepping stone from turbomania

Great information guys !

I have just completed a spreadsheet to determine what type of turbo I should be looking for.

It has the following variables:

1. Engine displacement in cc's (1971)
2. Engine's volumetric efficency (85%)
3. Desired boost pressure (10 psi)
4. Engine rpm range (2000,3000,4000,5000,6000)

It calculates the pressure ratio using atmospheric pressure for all RPM's and gives me a boosted lbs/min of airflow.

I now have to plot the values on some turbo compressor maps to find the right turbo.

By playing with the values, I found out a 1971cc @ 14 lbs boost (6000 rpm) will flow as much lbs/min of air as a 2270cc @ 10 lbs of boost (6000 rpm). (23.91 vs 23.70)

Not sure how accurate this is in the real world but it seems like boost is the 'great equalizer' :D

Sandeep

You dont need to lose the option of having a sub box either.... Even if your behind rear seat area is full.....

Basically you can build a fibreglass box on one side under your rear seat (where the battery goes on one side). So long as you get a sub designed for a small box (0.6 - 0.8 cuFt) then you can build a subbox in down there...
I am moving my battery to the front of my car sometime soon, and will be putting a sub down there on each side. :)

Cya,
Sam C

I have plotted my data points on different compressor maps (2000, 3000,4000, 5000 and 6000 rpm) and I have a question.

How do you know when the turbo is starting to boost ? Some points result in a compressor speed of about 70K rpm and some result in over 110K rpm.

Do you want the plotted line to end up in the 'island' mostly, meaning the 6000 rpm data point, or is it ok to have the 6000 rpm data point be off the island ?

I haven't found a site on the web yet that can explain it, and am not confident enough to call a turbo shop and talk 'Turbo' with them :D

thanks

Sandeep

When it comes to the actual turbo specs and technical stuff call a turbo dealer the combinations are endless.

A stroker motor usually has really good bottom end power. In my setup I tried getting a cam that I can spin about 7500rpm and I'm tring to match a turbo that will help me more up on top and my mph.

do any of you know of some pics or have seen a notchback with a T1 or T4 turbo motor in it and if so was it blow through or pull through and what kind of setup. thanks


SAM

check out www.thesamba.com and do a search at the gallery.

Check out my reply:

Here

for 2 pics that I posted.

Dan

I didn't realize in the galleries that there are these two pics showing a BAS header hooked up to a turbo ... exactly what I was thinking of.

Anyone know who this car belongs to ?

Thanks

Sandeep

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/0281.jpg

http://www.germanlook.com/Images/0305.jpg

Sandeep,

Keep me up to speed with your T4 turbo project, I've been thinking of doing this with my 914.

I already have the SDS PEFI system and if I get the Nickies I'll have no sealing issues.

On the exhaust you have to have good sealing heavy stub pipes on the heads, exhaust leaks are a killer.

Mark

Well, on a turbo'd engine that remains to be seen of course. Even Porsche had sealing issues with about 10% of their Nikasils cyinders on the 964 N/A and replaced all of them with an extra ring in a groove in both the head and the alu cylinder.
I believe Charles does offer an extra sealing ring of inconel that resembles Porsches solution to the sealing problem.
In the far future, I want to try it (nikasils with a turbo without extra grooved sealing ring) as well tho...
Greetings,
Walter

Mark Thurston's Oval
 

In a past issue of Volksworld, Mark Thurston's Oval in the UK is using 103mm cast iron cylinders with a T03 turbo to produce about 270hp, with an 74mm crank.

I wonder how that engine is holding up....

Here is a pic from the LBC2racing.com website of his engine .... looks like this is what I'm going to do as far as turbo placement is concerned... another example of BAS header with a turbo.

http://members.rogers.com/ssyan/mark11big.jpg

Sandeep

Re: Mark Thurston's Oval
 

Great looking engine.. but the link dont work or am i crazy :silly: ?

Greetings Wiebrand

Hey sandeep, I noticed you mentined you can get turbo "ready" IDF's. Where did you find these? I've been looking for a while for these so I don't need to notch the shafts for O rings on mine or get the nitrous filled floats. Awesome news!!....but where? Been planing on turbon' my T4 for a while, glad to see others are to.

Turbo prepped IDF's are $1000 from Competition Engineering ... to expensive for me .. at this price I will have to look into an EFI setup ... but I have time ... lots of it... the T4 runs fine right now and with all of the advancements in the industry so far, another year may prove to be worth the wait.

Sandeep

That motor of Marks is one of Russ' cast offs.
The Eurorace heads and 3 season old barrels if i remember right.
The system is one Russ made in stainless, Yup that grotty thing is stainless steel!!
I recall it made 20 horse more but with 3 mill longer stroke than Russ ran.

Thanks for the update Bobtail !

Sandeep

Moving forward
 

Look what I scored ...

48mm Throttlebodies

http://members.rogers.com/ssyan/CB1.jpg

http://members.rogers.com/ssyan/CB2.jpg


Pressure ducting

http://members.rogers.com/ssyan/CB3.jpg

http://members.rogers.com/ssyan/CB4.jpg

Now I can start mocking up the turbo system ... The T1 manifolds I will keep and the TB's have a boss which will be machined out for the injectors. Whatever I can't use will then be for sale :D

Now I just need to look for the electronics to run it all.

Sandeep

Sweet !

Good score, where did you find this ?

Rob.

The project is looking interesting and now you have some bits to play with it wont be long before its plumbed in. I am running a 2.5l type 4 turboed and injected with Bosch K-jet system currently being run in and is 'only' making 5psi boost. I have a few pics on my web site if you want to flick though it may give you a few ideas. Have fun!!!

Rich

www.meza.co.uk

How cool is that ! :D

Really great install ... You've given me ALOT of ideas ..

Thanks for sharing !

Sandeep

http://www.centralvwaudi.com/develop...sorts5_014.jpg http://www.centralvwaudi.com/develop...sorts5_013.jpg
note the gearbox brace mounted thru the body, does a great job of keeping the rear end of the body solid.

fancy a look at this then
 

:D Thought id show you mine as youv shown me yours

Nice!
That does look suspiciously like a 915 box :D
How do you operate your clutch turbonutta? Hydraulicly perhaps?

Q: Aren't you afraid of heat build-up in that area?

Thanks,
Walter

Very nice Danny. :agree:

hey wally if i was worried about heat i wouldnt be buildin a turbo system.....

no seriously im not that worried as i have a twin air duct on the window to let air into the turbo and the other provides cooling air for the under box area all of it will get warm/hot.

The box is a 915 you are correct the clutch is STD bug cable slightly re-routed.
i accidently purchased a pair of dual 45 throttle bodies whilst in the states my girlfriend made me :D

Cool!,
Just be aware that the throw/leverage of the 915 box is much more than the STD bug pedal assemble can provide. Lengthening of the arm of the pedal assembly does help but might give other problems (cable opening location) and may still not be enough.
I'am in the middle of fitting mine and hope that I may be able to inform you of some pit falls and vice versa :-)
Did you already make the rear trans mount fit?
Please let me know. I'am a bit stuck there myself...

Thanks,
Walter

Hi wally my box is sat in the car all bolted up. i will get some photos to send you then you could copy the mounts if you like them.,the clutch seems to operate very nicely with the std cable although the engine has not yet been run so i cant say that ive tested it

That would be very nice!

You did not lengthen the clutch arm of the bug pedal assembly at all?

Thanks in advance for the pics,
Walter