Suby-conversion advice?
 

I'm thinking about a Subaru conversion for my Ghia. I think the Power-Cost ratio is worth having a radiator.

What would be some general advice for the converstion? I've started some research already, forums and websites about other conversions. I'm thinking about either a EJ20T or a EJ20TT.

I'm also going with a 914/01 Tranny. Would that be a good combination with the suby?

Thanks... I'll ask more questions as I come up with them.

My best advice is do all of the research before you start buying parts. Make sure you know what you're getting yourself in to.

I thought about doing a Subaru swap for a while too. You are in luck though, there are a few guys here that have done/are doing suby swaps.

i am also working on an ej swap as we speak. i think that it would be a cool idea to use this thread for ideas, experiences and things we learn.. im all about learning.

what type of info are you looking for? subynotch has a really cool car, and an even cooler site that he logged everything that had to do with his swap. kinda cool if you ask me. also, vwrx, and some others have all also done the swap.

That's what I'm all about, I made the title of this thread with the intention of making a thread for a good referance of experiance, and answers to basic questions.

What size pipe do I need to run front to back?
What size radiator do I need for the size engine? (minimum)
What size fuel pump would I need? How much psi would the engine need?
Also, I have no clue where to start when it comes to ignition. What parts to buy, where to get them? :confused: That's the BIGGEST challenge for me so far. I've seen some go stock, others not... Which is the best/easiest?
And, How would a 914/01 tranny work with this engine? Any ideas? Can it hold the power?

I'll chime in here because I'm doing the research now as well. I was going to do a T4 turbo but a ride in a friends 914-V8 conversion changed my mind :D

My main concern right now is getting the engine to fit without cutting up any bodywork in the rear too keep it looking stock.

I'm using a 914 gearbox which is already installed and the rear of the bellhousing is at the stock 4 speed location. I can't move it any further forward without hacking into the torsion tubes ... and then there is the low sump ... don't want to raise the rear of the bug up. I've heard the 914 gearbox can take about 300 hp/300 tq without killing itself.

The pipes / rad / wiring are minor to me ... just have to make it fit first !

Keep the questions coming ! because I'm learning too !

Sandeep

I'm also doing an EJ swap, the stock ej20t (tt) longblock/internals will handle 405 hp on average which equals 19 lbs of boost. As long as you can push enough fuel to the motor, it's healthy between 350-400 hp. As long as your tranny will handle the torque of the motor, this is one wicked setup. A 915 will handle about 300 lb. ft of torque.
A stock ej20t header fits, an ej20tt's stock dual exhaust hits the axles, but since the stock exhaust isn't used, you get better heads, better spool up time, because of the sequential turbos, and better torque.

Stock EJ20T - 227 hp, power from 3000 rpm.

Stock EJ20TT - 276 hp, power from 1700 rpm.

I got the ej20tt and i'm gonna convert it to a single turbo, with a holset hx-35 from a 2001 automatic dodge cummins turbo diesel. It spools up at 4000 with the 2.0 ltr, and the turbo handles 40 lbs no problem. My good friend runs this setup on his wrx and it pulls harder than most any car out there. The car has built every thing down to the cryo treated crank, sleeved block, forged pistons and ported heads and everything else you can think of. He puts 30+ lbs of boost on 110 for fun and the car is rediculously fast. 0-60 mph in 3.3 seconds...it doesn't have any problems getting through the 1320.

I'll build my motor to handle 600 ponies after the car is built up, so for now, 400 will do...

I'm building an EJ25 into a '70 bug.
Looks like I'm the only one going non-turbo :D

I have a WRX, so I know what a turbo does, personally it scares the sh!t out of me to put a 227 HP motor in a 30 year old car.
I figured I'll start with an EJ25, and boost it later if the hunger for more power comes along :D

In any case, check out my website (in my sig) for details on the build up.

I use the stock ECU, mostly because it is a super low budget hackjob that I am doing, guys like VWRX, Jakriz etc are an a completely different league than me :p

A good rule of thumb is to make a budget, and then double it. There is sooo much little stuff that you don't think about, and it will add up the $$$ quickly.
I'm not trying to scare you, I actually encourage you, I've had mine running for a little bit and it was fantastic, the torque was addictive !

Rob.

its nice to see so many people chiming in on their own setups, it looks like we should be able to share alot of good information. i did have a few little corrections to make before any bad information gets spread around.

there is really no such thing as a ej20t. if you look on the block of a car, there is nothing saying ej20t, it will say ej205 ej207 ej257 ej20g ej255 ej25 ect ect. ej20t is like using a very broad term to describe the engine. infact in my recollection there is no such thing as an ej20 non turbo. so with that being said, I just want to clarify a few little things. lazylongboarder, i dont mean to pick on your post, because you have alot of good info, but if i might, i would love to clean up some of what you said that is somewhat untrue. youve been misinformed. i want to get this stuff cleared up in the spirit of spreading truths rather than untruths. its obviously nothing personal either because you are a way cool guy with lots of knowledge amd i know that first hand.

there is nothing published saying the stock ej20 motors will handle 405 hp. infact, i know of a bonestock ej20 motor making 500 whp which is probly more like 600 at the flywheel. thats an ej207. the ej205 is the stock wrx motor, (227hp) and usually can make 400 hp properly tuned. ive seen wrx motors crap out at very low power levels like 350 and up. just depends on the tune, and a good ole thing called luck. further more, there is NOT a direct relation between hp and boost. i have made probly 330-340 hp on one of my cars at 20 psi of boost, and another one of my cars, since it was using a MUCH bigger turbo and a better motor, was probably making about 480-500 hp. boost does not equal hp ever. ever. EVER. there are too many variables to say something like that.

unfortunately there are 2 things that are VERY untrue about this as well.

the stock WRX does not make 227hp at 3000 rpms, it makes it at 6000rpms.

do you realize that by saying it makes 227hp at 3000 rpms, you are saying that it also makes 397ft lbs of torque at said RPMs? obviously that is no where near the truth. the stock WRX makes 215 ft lbs of torque at 4000 rpms.

also, by saying that the ej20tt makes 276hp at 1700 rpms is also saying that it makes 852 ft lbs of torque at 1700rpms. remember torque and hp are tied in with one another very closely. infact there is a .1 correlation between hp and torque at the same engine speed.

remember the formula torque=hp*5252/rpms and conversly hp=torque*rpms/5252

i do understand what you are saying that the tt motor spools faster, because its got 2 seq turbos, but the power figures you stated are way off.


the holset turbo you are speaking of, is actually a HY35 which came on the automatic dodge trucks in 01, the HX35 came on the manual transmission trucks. the hx35 would NEVER spool up at 4k on a 2.0 liter WRX motor. I promise. The HY has a better sized turbine housing, so that one will still spool up better, but still would just about not spool in first gear on a 2.0 liter wrx motor. again I promise. the reason I know, is because I am the guy of whom you are speaking, with the built motor wrx cummins turbo car. do you not check your PMs? i sent you one letting you know who I am like last week. Anyways, about my car, i dont want any miunderstandings or rumors spread about my car either, because someone will call me on it one day, and ill be embarrassed.

my car has an HY35 turbo yes, off of an 01 dodge cummins deisel. my motor is built to the hills yes, and it is an ej25 block not a 20 block. it displaces 2.4 liters, and has raised compression, ported heads, ect ect. there is alot happening inside that motor that helps spool my HY35 turbo. it spools at a very reasonable engine speed, about 4k. but again, its not a 2.0 liter car. the hy35 would not go well on a 2.0 liter stock WRX motor without MUCH lag.

i do not run 30 psi, the motor and turbo could do it and alot more, but i havent. i have never tuned for more than 20 psi ever on this turbo, and 22 psi on my previous garrett T62-1. it is incredibly fast, and really does do 0-60 in the mid 3 second range, but ive never run 110 gas through it, or tuned for 30#s.

lazy, you have some good info, and some bad info, please dont take any corrections as offensive, as they are only intended to help the group.

anywyas, here are a few of the latest pics of the motor in my wrx. and im off to go change the plugs right now. the rain stopped.

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member...6_120_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member...6_121_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member...890_7_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member...90_17_full.jpg

We have the EJ20 non turbo in the UK, it is in the 2l 'sport' models...

Rich

I thought he was meaning that the power STarts at 1700 rpm. NOt the max power is at 1700rpm. Or at least logically it sounds that way to me. I understand that the wording could lead you to believe that he means 276hp AT 1700rpm. But that's not how it sounds to me. Just my 2cents. :rolleyes:

I've completed my engine swap and have driven it for about 300km now and have never regretted going through the whole proces :)

here's some pics http://www.cardomain.com/ride/844382/1

currently I'm running the EJ20TT without boost (don't know how exactly to attach the vacuum hoses yet) on a stock type 1 trans and even now it feels very fast. I've done a wheelie once with my previous copper clutch (wasn't very driveable on the streets) but have never really floored it because of fear for transmission failiure.
I don't have any real numbers on it for now but my guess is it does 0-100km/h in about 5.5 seconds and I've been over 200 km/h with it but that's just scary :)

Sounds like a man who's seen his maker on occasion in that WRX! :D

hehehe, the thing is, you can never have enough power.....when you are on the highway
Personally I like go around corners quickly, and I've noticed that (for now) 227HP is more than enough to get me into trouble :rolleyes:

Rob.

wow, thats an awesome engine scoobytuner. I think i remember reading about it on nasioc.com. INTENSE.

anyways, ill post some info that has helped me do my swap.

you can go to my site that shows my conversion that has been working great for me since i got it running, like a month or so ago at
http://www.studiotuning.net/subynotch

NASIOC has helped me a lil get acquainted with the motor. They have a tuning forum and some really knowledgeable users.
http://www.nasioc.com

theres the volks-swap forums, they are dead most of the time though
http://frost.bbboy.net/vwengineconversions

there the aussie vee dubbers "non-vw engines" forum that has alot of good info with quick responces most of the time.
http://www.aussieveedubbers.com

Outback motors has pretty good prices on the ej series parts and helpful conversion parts.
http://www.outbackmotors.com

Megasquirt is the cheapest EFI i know and has a ton of support
Mega Squirt Manual
Megasquirt forums
http://www.msefi.com

Shoptalkforums has a conversion forum but its dead most of the time also.
http://www.shoptalkforums.com

-Ryan

Hey All,

I have a line on an engine from a 2002 WRX with 144,000 km (89,000 m).

It has an upgaded turbo (deadbolt tdo4 monstor port and polish and ceramic coated) and stock ecu with yoshio stage 2 tune.

Timing belts have been changed ...

I'm pretty sure with an upgraded turbo, this engine has seen some track time.

Is there anything I should be looking out for ... and what kind of price would something like this go for ?

Thanks !

Sandeep

Sounds like a lot of miles for such a new engine to me. Do you know anything about this Yoshio tune? I presume it's an import Jap engine from the description... That tune is probably making the most of their 100 octane fuel by the sounds of it so is no good for you, probably better off getting a lower mileage engine IMO...

Rich

Thanks for the feedback ricola ... it turns out that this engine (USDM) is currently in the car and has seen regular autocross use ...

On to the next lead !

Sandeep

Sand,

Do you need a copy of the Service Manual..

Have a soft copy that I can send your way..

I Have a 02 WRX as my primary mover..

If your going to swap turbos let me know.. My scooby could use a little help..
Alex

ask him what yoshio is, ive never heard of it. stage 2 is just probably the designation for stock turbo, after market exhaust ect. if its like the stage 2 tuned ive seen, you are looking at around 300hp. it could even be 10-30 more depending on what that deadbolt turbo does extra.

also, get a compression check. tell him to take it to the dealer, and do a compression and leak down test, and thatyou would like him to provide all the numbers.

that will tell you just about everything you want to know.

deadbolt is a good company. the monster td04 is a stock turbo with like a clip, and a good port and polish, its not too much. i would say that you should be paying not much extra for that motor over a stock motor... maybe 2-300 more idunno. you should post up a link of the motor, we can have a look at it tell you what we think.

Some info..

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...11&postcount=8

quoted.. Technically speaking, and this perhaps where I get my hackles up,
Yoshio is a tuner using Tectom's programming product. I think
that everyone equates Yoshio (the tuner) to the equipment
manufacturer (Tectom) because he is currently the only person
offering the service. It would be the same as saying Shiv is
ECUTEK, which of course is not the case

If there is a beef about the approach to the ECU remapping then
it should be directed at Tectom, not Yoshio. He is taking grief for
going out and bringing in a service not previously offered by
any North American tuner shop, and a lot of that grief is not
substantiated and now is being compared to a product that has
not been released.



Its a start
alex

Thanks for the offer LOAF ... I'll keep it in mind, just have to get the motor first :) .

Scoobytuner .. I'm having an email conversation with the seller, no links to the motor. I'll get the #'s and post them.

Sandeep

Yoshio is the owner of http://www.japanese-auto.com/ here in Toronto.

Sandeep, I'm guessing you got your lead through the Toronto Subaru Club ?

Who is the guy selling it ?
There is a strong Yoshio following at the club (even more at SPDA), but there is also a group that is not a big fan (isn't that always the case)...

He tunes the car by reflashing the ECU.

Rob.

yeah it sounds harmless, id trust it.

Rob,

Ya .. TSC. The seller is Tony Kloosterman.

Sandeep

I've got a question. I've heard it said here and there, but I want to know...

What exactly is the differance between an open and closed deck block? Pictures would be a Big help.

Closed decks are stronger, but what else?

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...osed+deck+open

Here is a good explaination..

Has to do with the water jackets around the cylinder.. I believe..
ALex

In the Dec. 2005 issue of Hot VW's , there is a spread on an orange KG vert that is running a Subaru WRX engine . It does't get into the conversion too much , but the install is very clean . I am in the state of planning my next beetle , and originally I was going to install a big horsepower type IV , but after seeing this car , and seeing the amount of power available from a stock Subaru engine , I think I am going to go this route instead . I was already planning on having a custom tube chassis floorpan constructed , so this will help a lot in the install . BTW , in the same issue , if anybody knows what the name of the rims on the Doug Hartman chopped 74 on page 69 , please let me know . They look very similar to Torque Thrusts , but slightly different . Axl .

Another one joins the conversion perversion. Nice to have you!!!

Jason

Nice to be had!!

well, my conversion is starting up, i just bought an 05 WRX that has been rolled over. got a great deal on it, and so now i have everything i am going to need for the swap minus the KEP parts and some stuff for random fabrication. also ill need a radiator.

pics will start coming on saturday when (and small IF) i go pick the car up.

Scooby - keep us up to date . I , for one , want to see whats going into one of these conversions . I want to know whats in store for me when I finally get to do this (don't forget , I am doing a custom frame , for strength and ease of the modifications I have planned)

I got my adaptor ordered from KEP. :cool:

I'm about to order a boost guage, what's the differance between a Vac./boost, and a Boost? Which would I need? :confused:

vac and boost are used on turbos, and just boost is used on supercharger setups. you want vac and boost for sure.

Hey Rob - I checked out your pics . Pretty cool . I do have one question . I see you had to notch the rear fenders to clear the timing belt cover . I also see that ground clearance is quite low under the pan . I was thinking that when I do a custom frame , I could lower the trans mounts by an inch or two to clear the fender . What do you think about this idea?

Hey Axl,

Yup, that's a great idea.
Only *after* I had mounted the motor I found out that you can move the tranny a bit forward by flipping the tranny mount (you'll also have to modify the shiftrod mind you).
It also depends on the motor you use. This is a DOHC EJ2.5.
If you use a SOHC, or a 2.0, you'll have a better chance of not having to cut the fenders.

As to the ground clearance, with the small wheels I have (15"), I can forget about lowering the car at this point.
There are kits to raise the transmission as well (aircooled.net) so that might also be something I'll be looking at. There are also some very nice shortened oilpans available from Bug at 5 speed (I *think* that's the right name, check this board, there is a whole thread about them).

If you are building a custom frame, then you have many options. I would certainly look at incorporating the original motor mounts, or check with the Subaru-vanagon guys on some of the motormounts they are using.

Good luck with the project and keep us posted !

Rob.

Thought I'd chip in :D
As Rob says, if you reverse the rear cradle it will push the engine/trans forwards about 2" and you won't have to cut the fenders. You will have to cut off the front mount and either relocate it or just use a berg style mid mount. Obviously, you can only do this if you are running IRS. You can shorten the oil pan about 30mm and still top up with the stock oil volume as the crank is way above the sump. Any more and the oil filter and exhaust manifold are just as low so there's no point.

With a custom frame, I would push the engine forwards and up as much as you are happy with, the limiting factor being the CVs you are using. This is what I will be doing shortly with my G50/WRX in my 1303 cabrio.

Rich

Being that it will be about two years , give or take , before I actually do anything (I am relocating in 1 1/2 years from Alberta , Canada to Indiana in the U.S. , so no sense staring before) , I am planning out EXACTLY what I want to do so when the actual work begins , I hopefully won't have too many problems . I also plan on using a 5-speed tranny , most likely a Porsche unit , which may effect the location . All of this , though , is giving lots of great ideas , as I want the cat to look reletively stock from the outside (no sheetmetal mods) . Axl .

You're a smart man! Let everyone else make the mistakes and then do it perfectly! I think that good long term planning will make the best outcome almost every time!

Scooby, post some pics for us!

Who's the moderator here? These kinds of topics should be edited and put under a sticky so that people don't have to keep coming in and asking questions that have already been answered. An edited post with lots of pics would be really helpful to all who are interested in this conversion.

Jason

hi everyone
 

Hey everyone, kind of a weird place for a first post, but I know subynotch from nasioc, and was directed here by zen.

anyway, I've got a 1967 porsche 912 that I'm running an EJ18 (1.8L NA).

I can shed some light on some of the questions asked (and will do so in post 2)

I've started a subaru conversion specific site www.porscharu.com that has nothing there yet, but will eventually. I'm still setting up the forums section so come check it out if you like. www.porscharu.com/forum

sjd

I am a mechanic in a GM dealership - the way we work there is , if someone figures out a new way to do something , it gets spread around to everyone , so we all can benefit from it . That's how I am approaching this , as well .