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-   -   Most Reliable Power per Dollar Spent!? (https://www.germanlook.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4526)

Mysticle31 June 30th 2004 00:19

Most Reliable Power per Dollar Spent!?
 
I'm a newbie to aircooleds. I've posted and done all sorts of reading in the brake and suspension forums.

The car I'm looking to get has three inch wider fenders on it. That's a lotta TIRE! I need something that makes good use of the traction!

I am capable of doing some fab work to put in a SIMPLE watercooled option.

I'm looking for something FUN!!!! That I can be competitive with on the track (no one races SB's here) I want something that will leave Mustang GT's (stock or lightly modified and that class sports car) And something were the corvette and viper owner isn't careful he gets walked on too! but if he's good he sais..wow..look at that thing it still in my rear view mirror! Reliable is also a good thing..

What should I do?

Type 4 (www.aircooledtechnology.net is the only guys I know of.. any good?)

Rotory (most have about 100hp stock just like the Type 4's except the 93+, 87-91 Turbos, Series IV, and GSL-LE) Worth it? I'd imagine in the relm of type 4 vs Rotory 100HP that the 4 might be easier and cheaper but to get more HP factory with the rotory might be better??

What about the Alright, so I bought how to make your car handle. And I've learned a bunch. What I want is a nice firm ride not painful or bone jaring. Mabey slightly lowered in the rear, a lil more in the front mabey (helps weight transfer too!) What is the best way to do it? IE what rear stuff to use and what front stuff do I use? the control arms MUST remain paralell to the ground!

What about the Subaru engines? don't know much about them?

Type 1's (I don't know where to get type 4 parts if I were to sheer build my own and not as a kit. Do they use type 1 parts? That may or may not give a type 1 a sheer cost advantage not having to pay somone for their design and trial time.. but bad if it fails..)

I do have a VR6 engine I'm looking to sell.. Can I put that in? lol

Poor Realist June 30th 2004 10:37

Go rotary. They are smaller than a type 1 engine, a dime a dozen at the wreckers, and there are lots of different trim levels. You can easily get a reliable 160hp out of those.

Of course, this is all hearsay. :cool:

LOAF June 30th 2004 11:13

If interested in rotaries check this site out..

http://frost.bbboy.net/vwengineconversions

Some good info..

Why not a subaru WRX engine while your at it. :)
ALex

Mysticle31 June 30th 2004 12:04

Those are way wide :D

TitoRay June 30th 2004 17:16

If you have the resources, skills, etc., do whatever you want. If you have the money, Jake Raby of www.aircooledtechnology.com (thats a .com) is a well respected engine builder who is obsessed with the precision and perfection of his trade; type 4 engines. The engines he builds have a purpose and a reputation of being high-powered and long lasting.
Simply put, a 100 hp type 4 engine would be a more logical choice then a 100 hp rotary "conversion."
If you are running huge meats and want to eat Mustang GT's(me too! :D), 150+ hp might be what you want, obtainable via both rotary and type 4. High horsepower(turbocharged?) rotary engines require an intercooler setup(correct?), and more custom work. So if you have what it takes or want to endure the task of installing a rotary engine, go for it!
If you have the funds, you can buy a complete turn-key engine, tuned and ready to haul balls from Mr. Raby.
Of course, their are other lesser-known options as far as combos, builders, etc, but thats another story.
High-powered type 1 engines do well at the track. 11-12 second et's are not uncommon, but driving a type 1 engine capable of these times everyday is not very realistic.
From my point of view, based on your words, you might want to go rotary. A tire boiling 250 horsepower is more than possible. But then you have to consider tranny upgrades, etc..... :rolleyes: ;)

Look at this page specifically... http://frost.bbboy.net/vwengineconve...rum=1&thread=6

Mysticle31 June 30th 2004 18:22

I've done some reading on Jakes engines. And I really like them. I think that if their power is all in the right spots then I can make best use of it on the street and it'd be better to have less of that then more power that I can't get to. (and the former car would be faster?)

But, I'm not interested in an engine that I've spent money on that's now all taped out for power upgrades in the future. But I like paying more and geting it brand new! (IE heres a built motor that had 150hp modified. vs. 150HP stock or 130!)

Mysticle31 June 30th 2004 18:49

I'm curious why type 1's running these wow ET's are a pain do drive?. Those cars might be faster on the dragstrip but with a type 4 outpace it on the street? These aircooled moters. I just learned that some say..Webber 48's would cost 1000! I thougth these aircooled suckers were cheap.. :eek:

What's the deal with Waserboxers or Oxyboxers?

NO_H2O June 30th 2004 19:11

They say a T-1 is better suited for the strip, a T-4 is better suited for a road course (more grunt). A big type 1 likes a 48 webber combo, A type 4 likes 45 Dell's. A 48 IDA is more of an "ON-OFF" fuel delivery were a Dell DRLA combo is a little more driver friendly (smoother). They also say that Dell vs Webber IDF mm for mm, Dells flow better. As for the price of Webbers IDF or IDA, they have gone up in the past few months due to a stike and possible plant closing. I went with a 2275 Type-1, a high torque off road cam and Dell 45 DRLA's and so far I like it.
As far as Waserboxer and Oxyboxer,,,,I don't know much about them.

TitoRay June 30th 2004 20:53

Type 4 engines are generally known to last longer and of the dynographs i've seen, some have almost flat torque curves. Power at any rpm range.

~2.3 liter type 4 lasts ~100k miles
~2.3 liter type 1 lasts ~10k miles??

Point being, type 1 motors with this much power cannot be daily driven without constantly being maintained.

Actually, who knows now. Technology keeps getting better. Nikisil plated cylinders, etc.
:confused: :confused:

TitoRay June 30th 2004 20:54

Oh, and we haven't even mentioned turbocharging type 1's and 4's yet. :cool:

One of my favorite sayings, and oh so accurate...credits to the originator. :D

Power, reliability, cheap. You get to pick two. Or something like that. :p

boygenius June 30th 2004 21:59

I hate rotaries with a passion. The fuel mileage isn't very good and they don't make any low end tourqe. Once you get them reved up the power is very smooth and they pull pretty hard. Mine had about 180 hp according to the local RX-7 shop.



The WRX engine only needs a little triming to fit and they are good for about 280 hp with only a few mods. Do a search in this forum for more information on the WRX swap.

Mysticle31 July 1st 2004 00:35

For such a little carb and mani those are expensive (vs say.. Edelbrock for V8's. wowsers!) Mabey I shouldn't dump my MK2 VR6..heh..

Type 4, Rotory, Subie. Anyone know anything about the brases I'd need to reinforce the chasis for a high HP motor? (I'm hoping to add a simple rollcage or at least a roll bar any good ones?)

LOAF July 1st 2004 08:48

WRX engines are good.. I even at one point considered it for my vert.. But do to the clearancing issues, and having to remove material I opted against it..

They do make power.. The one in my car is around 270-280 at the motor.. With some Engine management and a high quality exhaust, it is like night and day.. To bad I can't transplant it into the bug..

Alex

Mysticle31 July 1st 2004 13:05

What tranny and drivetrain would I want to use with a Subie engine to make best street use of it's powerband and hold up to that power? How much does a swap cost..on the average (or personal experence)?



Also, where can I get more info on doing say a junkyard supercharger? What cooling issues would there be? (it's like having a bigger engine right? the watercooled don't ness. need bigger rads?)

Mysticle31 July 1st 2004 17:13

I just read about something called a Type V Waterboxer (Oxyboxer) What is that? More info please?

vwpride73 July 3rd 2004 02:05

Forget the rotary, they might make some hp but they lack low end grunt. And the reason say a 10 second N/A type-1 engine is a pain to drive is because to make that kind of hp the need a super high lift cam, monster carbs, giant exhaust, and the heads ( Superflow and such). Now the down side of all of those parts, you sacrifice low end with the carbs, exhaust and the cam. The problem with the cam is that it doesn't "come on" until say 3500-4000 rpm. Now with these after market high-po heads they dont have the cooling fins like say a stock 041 head. Type-1 are mainly a peaky and violent engine compared to a type-4. What do you want from an engine? What is going to be it's purpose? And I think turbo-charging a type-1 or type-4 would be your best bet, but if you lack experience do your homework(books and other online material). The great thing about the turbo is to make more power you dont have to increase the size of the engine, up the compression, or anything else like you would with a N/A engine. A turbo is a torque mutiplier. Turbo = More Torque = More Fun.

NO_H2O July 3rd 2004 02:47

I just finish a 2275 Type 1 with Dell 45's, 9.8to1 comp., Street eliminator heads 44x37.5, a Web Cam 122/125, 1 3/4 merged exhaust. I used a DTM type 1 shroud that cools the S.E. heads very well and the cam selection was spot on. It has a very type 4 like torque curve.
http://www.sevwa.com/2275graph.bmp

Mysticle31 July 3rd 2004 15:16

Oh yeah, That suckers nice. Doesn't have the fuel peaks and vallys like I saw on the 2270 type C?

NO_H2O July 3rd 2004 17:10

Sorry the graph stopd a 5500 rpm. The MSD rev limiter hit at 5800 and we lost 2 belts and didn't have another belt unless I took the one off the bug I drove 2 hours up there with and I had to get home so we stopped at 5500. I now have a new plug in for the MSD and the Alternator alignment has been solved.I think the HP curve would have nosed over about 6K and around 155 hp. maybe 160, don't realy care because I have seen the torque curve and it is mean for a Type 1.

vwpride73 July 3rd 2004 17:52

Like Jake says "Its all in the combo!"

Mysticle31 July 4th 2004 04:33

How much did that engine cost you to build? Any theorys as to how long it's suposed to last?

NO_H2O July 4th 2004 04:52

It is built from (slightly) used parts(not the cam/gears, oil pump or lifters, bearings, etc) I did all the machine work and the dynamic bal. job myself at Jakes. I have not added up my cost yet. I'm sure it will not last 1/4 as long as a type 4 built from the proper parts but I will have fun with it as long as I can or I will sell it soon and do a type 4. Mine is truely a swap meet special, but it runs like hell. :agree:

Mysticle31 July 8th 2004 13:30

I've recently been thinking to the posibility of a Turbo type 1. I think that would be way fun. And work well.

What makes a good starting point. I was looking at shop talk forums and people are running stock all the way to 2217! I read somewhere that turbos like shorter strokes (or was it longer strokes I don't remember). I'm interested in making power everywhere! So a smaller turbo would be good, that way I could make boost waaaay low. I do NOT want to exceed the 200HP mark in any way shape or forum. I dont want to spend thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars on a Super Tranny for my Super Beetle. Although I do recognise that a perf. tranny is required/recomended.

This is a steet driven car, want gobs of low end torue and to pull like a scaled rabbit to *whatever deemed sane/built for* rpms. .0034% Drag, 20% Road Race/Twisty Canyon road, 80% Street. I'm willing to go and check out the engine every week or two. (Valves, keep an eye on it..) I don't want to worry about taking long trips in it (obviously, I would check it first). Nor do I want to pull it every week.

Supa Ninja July 8th 2004 19:18

I've thrown in the towel with type 1 engines, in my hands they don't last. I've now put 30,000 mi on my 914 and haven't had too much trouble (clutch, FI which led to a little head troubles). Overall the engine is stout and very streetable, it works for me and my lead foot.
From all my research turbos like the shorter stroke so they can wind out quicker, VW Trends put a mild turbo on a bone stock 1600 and it ran strong till it blew.

Mysticle31 July 11th 2004 16:26

I've come to think that if this car I'm lookin at comes with a type 4 core and webber cabs. Wich is expensive part (I'd imagine) Mabey it's best if I just go with the type 4. As with the type 1 I would have to buy everything. Well I'm sure I can ger from DCNF's for the type 1 but not like those are going to do anything :D

I wonder how big of a type 4 I can build with Webber 44s.

Massive Type IV July 12th 2004 18:02

I use 44s for Type 4engines up to 2615ccs with great results. The Type 4 is all about port velocity and not volume on the intake side...

The fuel plots on the 2270 were simply that particular dyno session, I have built 200 2270s since then and 9 of them were devoted only to testing...

The site is being updated as we speak

Mysticle31 July 12th 2004 22:31

I'm curious then why you use 42/44mm carbs on the 1316? Must be the rpms..


I'd just love your 2270 or 2316 or if I won the lotery (or saved up for extra year..heh..) your 2563. Do you offer the 2563?

I'm currently looking for a more "economical" way to make nice torque and about 160-200HP. Mabey 1.7L or 2L with the 90MM cylinders running 10 lbs boost. Your DTM or stock (type 1 and 4 tin combined and modified upright) cooling. Does the "vanagon" head offer any exhaust upgrades other then using a "real" seal? Mabey 270dir, .440 lift. Mabey stroke a little.. whatever makes a good 'combo'

Considering I can fab the turbo might be good for awhile.

Mysticle31 July 12th 2004 22:39

Actually.. I've got acess to a "ED" core. Some said it was a 2L some said 1.8L 2 liters had a 94 bore, 1.8 had a 93 bore, 1.7 had a 90 bore. Wonder if it matters in a turbo.. not a big difference.

Massive Type IV July 13th 2004 16:58

My 2316 turns 8,000 RPM in my 914- with ONLY 40 dellortos!

I do offer the 2563, its a super hero and I only build 4 per year- no more than.

Mysticle31 July 13th 2004 17:08

Is there a more 'economical' approch? 180HP rev to 6.5 7 grand.

If type 4 useing Webber 44s.

zen July 13th 2004 18:05

2316 with 45 Dells, BAS header (no mufflers on this run), 44x38 (if i remember correctly)...
http://www.volksport.net/images/proj...ensrat2316.gif

beesquad711 July 13th 2004 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by TitoRay
Power, reliability, cheap. You get to pick two.

The more economical you go the more power and/or longevity you will give up. There's no way around it. Powerful, long-lasting motors cost money.

Mysticle31 July 13th 2004 18:56

If it's cheap enough to build! It's cheap enough to rebuild. All depends on that ratio. IE if I takes me 100 bucks to build a 180HP engine that will last 50K miles, but it would cost me 150 bucks that will last 100K miles. It's best to go with the latter.



How did you build that engine!! That is PERFECT! What cams? Dispmacement? Headwork? CR, heads..etc

Mysticle31 July 13th 2004 19:03

Also what tranny do you use with it? How do you like it?

I want one of these engines! Looks like one of jakes?

Mysticle31 July 13th 2004 19:23

Also I wonder what the power is like below 2500. Is it streetable? The numbers at 2500 start out higher then the 2270 type C. And that Dyno sheet starts at 2500 too. (besides that little intro curve. don't tell me the 2270C has no power below that :D )

Panelfantastic July 13th 2004 19:45

I'm making 170hp stock. Stock bottom end is good to 300hp, everything else is good to 400hp (turbo'ed or supercharged). I gave $350 for the engine on ebay and it had never been run (brand new). It will pull to 7k, all day, every day... there's just one big huge catch...it's watercooled :bawling:

NO_H2O July 13th 2004 21:11

Zen's engine is a Jake engine. His trans was built by Jake to match it.

zen July 13th 2004 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysticle31
How did you build that engine!! That is PERFECT! What cams? Dispmacement? Headwork? CR, heads..etc

Jake and Jake. Took a lot of guesswork and costly errors out of the equation for me. I figured an engine like that didn't need to be my first build (his kits take care of that if you have the time to do the build). I wanted something stupid powerful...got it. Can't beat leveraging the research.

Mysticle31 July 14th 2004 01:18

Jakes engine that I saw on there didn't produce 180HP? So you just called jale and ordered a 2316 and a type 2 (or was it type b?) tranny?

Does he offer it as a kit? That car of yours must be a HOOT!! How long is it suposed to last? How can I build one?

zen July 14th 2004 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysticle31
Jakes engine that I saw on there didn't produce 180HP? So you just called jale and ordered a 2316 and a type 2 (or was it type b?) tranny?

Does he offer it as a kit? That car of yours must be a HOOT!! How long is it suposed to last? How can I build one?

easiest way to handle all of that is just call jake and talk with him. he can talk you through what you need as long as you know what you want out of the car. based on what you mutually agree you need, he can tell you cost and longevity.


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